The age of the apprentice

23:56Now, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer chooses not to reverse the hugely damaging business rates reform, not damaging for everybody in the hospitality industry, but for many people, naturally I speak to them more than the others as the co-chair of the Hospitality Association, it's within a gift to press a pause button on that. It's in a gift to look at VAT in hospitality, which in the United Kingdom is the second highest in all of Europe, only Denmark, an absolutely, absolutely amazing country with very, very amazing and high average wages, taxes more VAT on hospitality at 25 % than we do here in the UK.

24:37In fact, I've just come back from the ITB in Berlin three weeks ago, the biggest travel conference in Europe. And we had dinner and the VAT on food was 9%. I mean, if somebody offered me 15%, even for a year, it's a game changer for our industry. And again, this is not, and it's very important. I'm very passionate about this. My father is a gardener. My mom is a nurse. They have only ever known to have a salary, a certain budget that they work within every year. If somebody said to them, well, you now have to pay an additional 10 ,000 pounds per annum on some bill you didn't expect. Like, where's that money supposed to come from?

25:19In our case, as self-employed people, the profit of our business more often than not is our salary. And so there has got to be an element of profit in our business to make it worth our while to take on that risk. But we also have to put money, food on the table of the family. And once you run a really good business and you can't make a profit anymore and you've turned every stone, you do ask yourself, like, why am I even bothering? Why don't I just become an Amazon delivery driver or something like that? Although I'm never going to do that, Leanna. Don't worry about it.

25:50Leanna Byrne:Well, listen, I don't think you will. I don't think you will. But all very important salient points. Well, listen, we're going to go global again because we've got the business secretary, Peter Kyle, saying the failure to reach a collective agreement at talks of the World Trade Organization is a major setback for global trade. At the centre of this deadlock is a key rule banning tariffs on digital trade set to expire tomorrow with countries divided over whether to extend it. Ministers met in Cameroon for four days to try to agree on reforms as the organisation faces growing pressure from major economies, including the United States.

26:24Leanna Byrne:But despite no overall deal, the UK and 66 other countries have gone ahead with their own digital trade agreement. Max Mendez-Parrara, Principal Research Fellow at Think Tank ODI Global, was at the conference and joins us now. Max, sorry about that. How are you? How was the mood at the conference? Hi, good morning. Well, clearly it was a big disappointment for everyone attending the conference because this was, it is seen as a sort of a big last opportunity for the WTO to reform. At the moment, I mean, there seems to be failing in that purpose. So it has been quite negative in that front. I mean, there is this digital e-commerce agreement that was reached by 66 countries, but the general sense has been quite negative.

27:22Leanna Byrne:That digital tariffs agreement, the US and Brazil are holding that up. That's a separate thing. But with deals like that, do you think that there's any possibility that that could get over the line or are we just seeing deals that just aren't going through anymore? Well, I mean, at this moment, I mean, just reviewing, I mean, clearly today is the day that expires the moratorium that was set up two years ago and the recent agreement. So the view is that the discussions are going to continue in Geneva. But it means that basically from today, basically countries, except those that agree to not do so, will be in position to start applying duties on digital downloads, Netflix, newspaper subscriptions, etc.

28:12done digitally.

28:13Leanna Byrne:Do you think the WTO can actually deliver deals these days? Or is it because the world is so fractured, particularly when it comes to trade, that it's not possible? Well, I think that there was an expectation that this ministerial, that would be the opportunity. There were, well, the digital duties moratorium also need to be delivered and it wasn't. There was a plurilateral on investment facilitation for development that was also part of the expected package that wasn't possible to deliver because India, particularly India, opposed to it. So it seems that in the facts, I mean, the WTO seems to be unable to deliver reform, deliver new deals that adjust to the realities of trade these days.

29:09So I think that the facts, I mean, suggest that no, the WTO cannot do it. I think that is a significant setback because it is an organization that was set up for a world after the Second World War, where the spirit of cooperation, the spirit of economic efficiency was something to need to enhance. But this spirit is no longer there. And it seems that it's extremely difficult that the new rules for these circumstances will be dealt multilaterally, will be probably dealt in a fractured way, as you suggest.

29:53Leanna Byrne:And if countries are now doing deals outside of the WTO, who loses out from that? Is it smaller economies? Could it be the consumers themselves? No, I think that the reason now is space, I mean, for groups of countries and the digital, the e-commerce agreement that was signed, the 66 hundred, is an example. Groups, basically what is called coalitions of the willing, will start being formed and will start agreeing on specific issues with the possibility of other countries eventually joining. But that will create a WTO with multiple agreements, multiple models that countries can choose. And the risk of that is that it was something that was tried to be done with a single undertaking and the consensus rule that the WTO had is that that eventually created a less efficient system because you have multiple models, multiple types of way of doing things.

30:53So I think that that is probably the way. It would be a way where probably no longer rules will be what will establish how those agreements are made and the content. But it will be more than forced. Some sort of gunboat diplomacy like the US has been pushing in the last couple of months. It is more likely.

31:16Leanna Byrne:All right, Max. Well, thanks so much for joining us, particularly after a long weekend. I'm sure it has been for you. Max Mendes-Pereira, Principal Research Fellow at Trade Think Tank ODI Global.

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32:48Wake Up To Money from BBC Radio 5 Live.

32:52Leanna Byrne:Yes, welcome back to Wake Up To Money. If you have been with us since 5am, if you've just joined us, well, welcome as well. We've had a few texts in. The government is like an eight-year-old. They've been asked repeatedly what they might do to help people to which they refuse to give any specific details, but instead tell us repeatedly they're looking at all options, but nothing concrete ever. No name on that, but that's probably referring to we had an Iran update, oil prices, energy prices, etc, etc, etc. We've been talking about that for weeks. We are on the fifth week of the conflict. We also have from Paul in St Albans, how seriously should Starmer and Reeves study the measures taken by Australia's left-leaning government to combat the economic impact of the Iran war?

33:36Leanna Byrne:Or are they simply too drastic to be acceptable to the British public and politically toxic with the May 7th elections looming? I think what Paul is referring to there is Australia is having fuel tax. That just came out this morning. Interesting stuff. Well, it meets on the front page of The Times this morning. The Prime Minister is meeting fuel bosses as fears grow over shortages. We spoke about that a little bit earlier. But let's move on. It is Easter week and many of us will have planned to go away somewhere to visit family or taking the chance to escape abroad for some sun. But given the war in the Middle East, some travel companies have said that their customers are changing their plans or forgoing a trip abroad to stay in the UK.

34:19Leanna Byrne:Now, does that apply to you? Have you changed your plans in favour of a staycation? Let us know. You can get in touch or text 85058, WhatsApp 08085 909693. and if you're listening to us on BBC Sounds or the podcast just use the hashtag WakeUpToMoney on social media. Peter Schweversman, co-owner of Hotel Anfield and commercial director of Hotel Raxam. Peter, hello, thanks so much for keeping with us and also Judith McKenzie, partner and head of Downing fund managers. Peter, I'm going to talk to you about staycations. You were mentioning earlier, we're going to talk about those disruptions to international travel a little bit later But are you seeing more people choosing to stay in the UK?

35:04Yeah, I think it's a great alternative option. Obviously, I would be enthusiastic about it as the United Kingdom chose to make things more difficult for European tourists to come here. It's very important that we make domestic holidays as attractive as possible for people. Now, if prices in certain parts of the season or so for normal families is nearly as high domestically as it is to fly to Spain, then I guess we cannot complain if people choose Spain over some seaside resorts in the UK. But yeah, it makes up a big part of our business and very, very selfishly spoken. If there's some people that choose to go to Liverpool for a weekend rather than Dubai at the moment, then I'm personally very happy with that short term.

35:58I don't want to lie.

35:59Leanna Byrne:Judith, from a very economic standpoint, if overseas travel becomes more expensive or it's uncertain, is it just the case that people then will flow the money back into the UK economy instead? Or, like Peter mentioned, they might say, I'm going to the Canary Islands. Yeah, it's a bit of a mixed bag so far this year. So Jet2 said the bookings were up around about 8 % so far and they expect to hit their profits of 440 million to meeting expectations. and overall air bookings for ether were up however um i would counter that by saying the um the company on the beach which is probably a brand that's quite known to quite a few of us despite quite a good start to the year it pulled its guidance for earnings stock market as they said they just didn't know what was going to happen during this exact period and i think we're just beginning to see that now so yeah i think there's an element of people spending at home.

36:56But I also think there's a big element of the consumer thinking, not knowing what oil prices, food prices are going to be. So actually just locking that cash up and not spending it, which isn't great for the economy.

37:09Leanna Byrne:Well, as I mentioned, we're going to talk about that again a little bit later. But let's talk about apprentices now. £725 million shakeup of the apprenticeship system comes in this week, aiming to help tackle youth unemployment and drive economic growth. The DWP says around 50 ,000 more apprenticeship opportunities will be made available and they'll be targeted towards workers under the age of 25. But what about older apprentices? An older worker might not be what immediately springs to mind when you hear the word apprentice, but there's plenty of them. Wake up to monies. Olivia Hutchinson's been delving into this for us.

37:45Each year, the government lists the top 10 leading apprenticeship employers in the UK. Up top for 2025 was hospitality and pub operator Mitchells and Butler's, while the likes of Amazon, McDonald's UK and PwC also feature. Wake Up To Money approached these 10 companies to

38:03Leanna Byrne:get more of an idea of the type of workers they had on their books. And it's safe to say that being an apprentice doesn't necessarily mean you have to be under a certain age. My name's Kim. I'm a third year project management apprentice at BAE Systems. I'm the grand age of 34. Unsure of what she wanted to do after leaving college, mum of two Kim ended up working for the NHS for nearly 15 years. It was just not fulfilling for myself. I took the opportunity to look elsewhere and saw that BAE's apprenticeships had no maximum age limit which was not something I expected. It was kind of one of those why not go for it and see what happens and yeah, it's been the best decision I ever made, to be honest.

38:46Kim's employer, BA Systems, told me that around 20 % of their 5 ,000 plus apprentices are over the age of 25. Richard Hamer is their education director. We are seeing larger numbers of older, more mature people applying for apprenticeships and they do bring different skills, greater maturity, a wealth of insights from other sectors and other types of employment into our apprenticeship programmes and also being older, they also are great role models for the younger apprentices.

39:17Leanna Byrne:49-year-old Kath works as an apprentice training coordinator. I'm feeling really proud of myself for having achieved this later in life and it's really given me a thirst to continue progressing my career and perhaps in doing another apprenticeship. Her employer, GXO Logistics, is currently training more than 1 ,700 apprentices with 79 % aged over 25 and it seems to be a trending pattern. Jan Smallbone is the Director of Learning and Talent Development at Mitchells and Butler's. There is no barriers in terms of age. We have lots of our own team who are older than 25, some much older than 25, who've not been able to access education, formal educational qualifications.

39:56So it's a fabulous opportunity for them to learn and grow whatever their age group is. So is being an older apprentice becoming the norm? The answer would be yes. From the John Lewis Partnership, they have over 1 ,500 apprentices currently enrolled. The largest share of them age between 35 and 44. They even have a few who are over 65.

40:16Leanna Byrne:There you go. Wake Up To Money's Olivia Hutchinson with that report. Joining us now, Mark Simmons, Senior Vice President of Human Resources at GXO. Mark, good morning. Good morning, Leanna. What rang true for you in that package, as we like to call it, that bit of audio for you? So you have a lot of experience of older apprentices, don't you? Yeah, I guess we heard it from the previous edit. We have over 1 ,700 apprentices. As you heard, there's nearly 80 % of those are over the age of 25. And I guess some of the comments have been made, but you can hear, and Catherine's one of the great apprentices we have in our business today, it just opens up practical routes to change or improve your career without having to go back to full-time study or start from scratch.

41:05And that ability to switch industries, to learn on the job rather than sitting in a classroom and just gain that real experience immediately whilst working on real business solutions is super valuable to us. And we've had huge success from our programme. I guess, go on, sorry.

41:22Leanna Byrne:Well, no, I was just going to say to you, you were just mentioning the programme. Can you just explain how the model itself works? Because you pay in money, the government pays in money and it's for certain things you can either hire a new apprentice or you can retrain staff isn't that right that's correct yeah we we offer apprenticeships from level two all the way through level seven we've got 60 different programs today that span lots of different from technology to automation to hr to finance to operations um and it's it's time off the job it's supported as you say through the levy um it's a it's a i guess my step back from the program It's a genuine kind of talent pipeline for our business.

42:00And we're really proud of 60 % of every single role in GXO is filled from an internal talent. So that succession, that talent pipeline in an apprenticeship program in its fullest sense plays a massive part in that success.

42:14Leanna Byrne:Now, the government, it is quite clear, wants more of this funding going to young workers. You know, how do you feel about that? We actually got a statement from the DWP, it says, with almost a million young people, not in education, employment or training, it is important the system is prioritised towards those at the start of their working lives. Is that fair? I recognise and I think we absolutely welcome the government's commitment to getting more young people into apprenticeships. I guess if you look at the data on youth unemployment, it's pretty concerning. And we as a large business want to be part of that solution and support those activities.

42:50But as we've said, I think apprenticeships work brilliantly at any age. we've got people that come from lots of different sectors my personal view and I guess our view is that we hope that as the system evolves the focus on the young people which is absolutely right doesn't come at the expense of the pathway for older workers and for me the two aren't in conflict and I think with a well-designed levy system we can achieve both

43:14Leanna Byrne:And presumably as well when you hire an older worker who possibly has had more experience too that's probably better for your business I think they just bring different skills, different life experiences. You heard from Catherine briefly earlier, the ability to build confidence and develop modern skills is super valuable at the individual level. But you're right, their resilience, their experience, their different sectors add a lot of value to their role and ultimately our business. But I suppose if public money is going into apprenticeships, should it be more focused on people starting out rather than those people who, for example, like that case study, who were already in work?

43:55I think, as I said, I think it can apply to both. I think that the commitment to getting more young people into the business and the sector and apprenticeships is good and is the right approach. But as I said, I think we'd like to have the benefit of both. So we employ degree apprentices. We take lots of entry apprentices. We take school leavers. And it's a real focus for our business. So that emphasis is crucial that we continue in that regard. But as we say, continue having different pathways for lots of different people.

44:23Leanna Byrne:I'm going to bring in Peter, who owns hotels in on this one. Peter, how hard is it to hire good staff right now? Oh, that's that's an interesting one. I'm a product of an internship myself. So being from the background that I'm from, nobody in my entire family has ever been to university before me. And I'm not saying that because I'm special or whatever. I'm just saying that because there's university is sometimes seen by people as sort of the be all and end all go to place. But when you leave university in the United Kingdom, you leave with a huge amount of debt and sometimes quite questionable sort of degrees, which you then have got no practical experience and join the workforce with a lot of debt, with very little practically applicable skill and experience.

45:17and hence me mentioning internships on top of apprenticeships. I'm just going to put my German hat on here very briefly because Germany is, I think, well known for its SME sector, which carries the economy. And both big and small employers use apprenticeships absolutely. It's commonplace. It's cheaper than in the United Kingdom, which is something that hopefully the recent measures will address, makes it a little bit more suitable for employers. And it's seen, and I think for me, this is a real thing. When I came from Germany to the United Kingdom 20 years ago, like apprenticeship in the UK is seen a bit like as if somebody wasn't quite sort of maybe good enough to go to university.

46:03And that is awful because the vocational skills and the kind of, yeah, the hands-on stuff is so badly needed in this country. We can't just all work in service industries and become influencers. So it is, I think, to push apprenticeships with measures to make it more, dare I say, sexy to companies like ours. And you quoted yourself that a hospitality business is on top of the tree in terms of numbers of apprenticeships, which I'm not surprised about. But I think that the other part of it is the culture, the perception side. And I think we should celebrate apprenticeships as a real route into fantastic opportunities, one that lets you earn while you learn as well.

46:51And just on the last, very last point, if you don't mind, some of my best employees that have been with me for several years now, when I was still reasonably young business, are people that I've taken on when they were very young. Yes, it takes people a little bit longer to sort of learn how organisations work and so on. But I think apprenticeships are an absolutely fantastic model to educate people and to show them real life experiences. And if we can get over this hurdle of this obsession with university degrees and celebrate apprenticeships more, I think you will see that number could explode quite easily.

47:28Leanna Byrne:There you go, Mark. What do you think of all that? I'm sure you agree with Peter because you guys do a lot with your apprenticeship scheme. Yeah, I think PT is spot on. If I personalise it, I've got a son who's 22, who left school and did an apprenticeship. And my daughter, who's now 26, went to university and genuinely started life with a big financial mill around her neck almost. I think we need a system and a structure and different pathways to success that meets different individual needs. So I advocate, you know, apprenticeships are super valuable individually into the business, as well as all the alternative and maybe more traditional routes to career growth and personal growth.

48:05So I think we, in summary, we do need a system that covers all angles.

48:09Leanna Byrne:There you go, Mark. Maybe we need to be more German. Is there anything that you would, you know, improve about the system itself? I think as always in the system I think making them sector specific is really important I think we've had the ability through the apprenticeship programmes to adapt and develop to ensure that it meets the hospitality needs or in my case the logistics needs I think as the government continues to develop the bite-sized training the different modules in terms of ease and flexibility of apprenticeships making sure they're relevant to all sectors as well would be a key development going forward.

48:44Leanna Byrne:All right Mark Simmers, Simmons, rather, Senior Vice President of Human Resources at GXO. Thank you so much for joining us. Very hard to get my words out this morning. Now, let's talk about staycations. Is Cornwall the new Dubai? Well, perhaps not just yet, but as travel disruption continues across the Middle East and airlines admitting they'll have to pass on increasing costs to travellers, could we see a boom for the British summer holiday? Kalinda Junja, Chief Executive of Pride Hotels, Pride of Britain Hotels, which represents 57 independent hotel brands across the UK, joins me now. Hello, good morning.

49:22Leanna Byrne:Morning, how are you? Good. You're, well, according to my notes here, you are seeing bookings ahead of last year's. Take us through that. How big of a shift are you actually seeing? I'd say it's a bit early to say, but yeah, definitely demand is strong at the moment where we are seeing people who've had cancellations or, you know, just aren't going for those international breaks that they had originally planned. And we're seeing them wanting to stay in the UK. So it is optimistic on that front. But that said, it is a time of year that we typically see bookings increase anyway, you know, with going into the better season, with school holidays and so on.

50:04So I'd say it's too early to get excited about it, but it is looking optimistic.

50:09Leanna Byrne:What about Easter? Is it too close to Easter to maybe for people to change their plans? No, not at all, actually. And typically what we've seen in the last couple of years, which is unfortunate for us, really, but a lot of demand tends to come in quite late. So we are seeing very last minute pickup. Easter always tends to be a funny one for the UK hotel market because it's, you know, it's one where it's hard to predict patterns if I'm looking historically. So May onwards is looking far more optimistic. April, I'd say, still mixed signals is what I'm seeing when I'm looking across demand for our hotels.

50:50And bear in mind, I'm, of course, speaking for the luxury end of the market. All of our hotels, you know, all across the country sit in, you know, they're some of the best hotels all across the UK. So, yeah.

51:01Leanna Byrne:All right. And if more people are holidaying in the UK, does that, where exactly in your 57 independent hotel brands, where are you seeing that uptick? So, for us, over 80 % of our hotels are actually out in more remote or country house sort of style properties. We've got loads of coastal hotels. We've got quite a big presence in Scotland as well. So it's really spread out all over the country. But definitely one of the natural shifts that tends to happen when people can't travel abroad and the weather gets better, people want to be by the coast. So absolutely, that is one natural shift. We're definitely seeing demand for coastal hotels.

51:44But equally for us, a lot of our hotels are the destination itself. You know, you're not necessarily going there to fully embrace the, you know, the location as such, but you're going to embrace the hotel and what it's got to offer. So in that sense, it's, you know, that demand is trickling throughout. Because of time of year we're sitting in, which is pretty much, as you rightly pointed out, we're going, you know, we've gone into Easter holidays and we're about to then start thinking about May half term and the summer holidays. is naturally the family market is one that we're also seeing demand for.

52:21Leanna Byrne:Now, in previous staycation booms, prices can rise quickly. I'm thinking about COVID. Are you seeing increasing room rates? Could that actually maybe put people off, perhaps? Not at all, actually. I've not seen any particular price increase across the board. The prices really are very typical of what we'd expect this time of year. So it's really actually pricing is more currently driven by seasonality and demand, which is typical and definitely not by a hike in staycation. I think hoteliers are being quite careful. And I think for certainly for our properties, there's there's there's an ethical element to it, too.

53:04So, no, nothing in particular.

53:05Leanna Byrne:Now, we've also got another hotel boss here, Peter. Peter, you know, when it comes to your properties in Rexham and Anfield, I did a combination of both there. I mean, presumably demand is essentially based on when the big events are, when the big matches are. that is definitely a big element of it Wrexham has got the second biggest industrial estate in the United Kingdom so the demand there during the week is actually quite strong and mainly driven by the fact that historically there's very little other hotel options available around Wrexham which will change over time no doubt but yeah I concur with the other lady who just spoke saying that sadly for us the demand is very very last minute that's been a trend coming over the last two years and we just have to hold our nerve, which is easier said than done sometimes.

53:56Leanna Byrne:There you go. Kalinda, I'll give you the last word. I mean, we've had a staycation boom in the past, but do you think this one's going to stay? I hope it's going to stay because after the pandemic, we've sort of seen that stay actually because I think people had a moment to explore more of the UK. They realised how you can actually without flight disruptions and so on, which we've seen a lot of across Europe over the last few years, you know, without travel destruction, you can have an amazing stay. You know, you've got the coast, you've got the mountains. There's so much to offer. So I definitely tell everybody, definitely plan a staycation, support the UK economy.

54:33There you go.

54:34Leanna Byrne:Kalinda, thank you so much for joining us. And also thank you so much to Peter and Judith, both of our whole programme guests. And that is it from Wake Up To Money. New teams. New rules. A new era. Formula One returns. The engines are revving. People are getting excited. Hear every race live on BBC Sounds. It's all ice and the lights. Hands for the floor. On Five Live Sports.

55:11This is Mike Borlo of Lexicon Valley. And I'm Bob Garfield. Are you one of those people who sometimes uses words? Do you communicate or acquire information with, you know, language? Hey, us too. So join us on Lexicon Valley to chew over the history, culture, and many mysteries of English. Plus some wisecracks. Find us on one of those apps where people listen to podcasts.