The Five-Day Test

21:06Will Bain:And you mentioned that scrapping of digital ID that they had put out in the release initially about one of the ways to fund that. And of course, Darren Jones, who up until this week had been a very senior member of the government, had been chief secretary to the treasury, chief secretary to the Prime Minister amongst other roles saying that plan had never actually been costed up, so not sure that that counts as a saving. So when you've got your own side picking holes in it, it does suggest there are some questions, doesn't it, as well? Lucia, is it actually more about shifting the mood, some of this stuff, that, you know, we heard Ian Hoskins there saying it's kind of incremental, Randy backing that up, but actually it's just about trying to just chip away at what has been a kind of vibe, I guess, for UK businesses and that word confidence that we use so much here that's been under so much pressure this year?

21:50Yeah, look, I do welcome the positive tone and the optimism, but ultimately businesses will judge the governments on their actions, won't they? So that does have to follow through. But it has been nice to hear some good news this week. The messages have been encouraging. Andy Burnham has spoken positively about growth and support in business, suggesting that he's got a wider plan of more support. I think it would be great to hear what that is and try and understand that. But obviously we've mentioned how it's being funded and that issue, but certainly like some of the positivity that's coming out of it.

22:31And look, we don't expect transformation overnight, but we do, as you said, need that confidence. Consistency is something that businesses really rely on and a government that can make decisions and affect change.

22:44Will Bain:Is that a problem to you, a lack of kind of clear plan, like real detailed plan at this stage? I'd like to see it, I'd like to hear it, you know, and it's something that I don't feel that we've had for a while. We've had a bit of a flip-flop politics. There's been lots of U-turns, it seems. So it would be nice to have a direction and, you know, the talk of a 10-year plan and, you know, it echoes how you probably work in your own businesses you know you do need that strategy and that doesn't mean that it's a linear line to that strategy and obviously there has to be deviations and reactions in between time but it would be nice to understand where he sees that we're going as a country.

23:27Will Bain:Well someone else is going to be key to that Jenny is going to be John Healy the new Chancellor. This was him making his pro-business pitch to the City of London yesterday. As Defence Secretary I spoke about the defence industry as a engine for growth. As Chancellor, I speak for the whole economy. And businesses of all sizes, in all sectors, are so critical to the good growth we seek to secure in this country. And I'm just as concerned about the cost of business as I am about the cost of living. Randy, you touched on right at the top of the programme. What was the general mood, if there is one across the city to that announcement?

24:12I think John Healy is seen as a safe pair of hands. He has Treasury experience, having previously worked in the Treasury under the Gordon Brown administration as well. I mean, if we look at what he said yesterday at the Bloomberg interview, that fiscal discipline is going to be his priority, he's going to back British business, and as he's just mentioned there, business costs matter as much as household costs. This government needs to get the economy moving and growing again in order also just to fund his increases in defence spending. So at the moment, it's seen as positive.

24:45Will Bain:I'll get to defence spending in just one moment. But just on those costs for businesses, Lucia, your best place of the panel to pick up on that, what are those? Are they still employing people? Is that the biggest one? Is it energy? Yeah, employing people. We're still feeling the national insurance increase that came into effect. energy you know we've managed to mitigate some of those costs with the likes of solar panels which I think we've discussed previously you know the things that we can do to mitigate those costs but you can't mitigate them completely rising fuel costs energy costs and yeah it does impact our bottom line right so still plenty of of areas for them to work around as well beyond looking at that business rate issue should we hear a little more about defence as well John Healy's old job of course.

25:34Will Bain:He quit as defence minister over the defence investment plan, unhappy at the amount of money set aside for the defence sector. Well, in an interview with the BBC's business editor, Simon Jack, Charles Woodburn, the chief executive of one of our biggest defence firms, BAE Systems, said that while he welcomes recent increases in defence spending, much more would be needed. We are being complacent and we have been for quite some time. We have to make the case that this is money well spent to deter adversaries. And whilst investing in defence might look expensive, the cost of a war, I mean, stating the obvious is a massive increase over the cost of deterring a war.

26:12We still have some way to go, I think, to make sure that the overall population genuinely

26:16Will Bain:understand the threat we face. And it is quite profound. Complacent, Linda, is quite a striking word, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And I think the challenge for him now going into his new role is a pretty obvious one, which is how is it he's going to be able to fund this one? And I think the key here is what the new government has described as flexibility on the investment rule. So under the fiscal rules, you can borrow to invest. But so the question for defences, is it capital or is it current spending? Current spending, as we've been discussing with the various cuts to levies and that need to be balanced by taxes.

26:56If you were to borrow to invest, you have greater scope. And the International Monetary Fund has specifically said that the UK already has a tax level, which is a historic rise. So in order for them to fund more cuts to taxes of various sorts, there's going to be a need for cuts to public spending. And I think that's still fundamentally the challenge that he'll face. And something about John Healy, which I don't think I had fully appreciated, is that he was a treasury minister from 2002 to 2007, but he was actually minister state for local government in the housing and planning from 2007 to 2010.

27:39So he's actually done quite a bit on regional growth policy. And I think that is very much in line with the kind of devolution push of the new prime minister. So he has pretty broad experience across a number of government departments. around spending and some of those challenges. And I think that's why he is viewed as a safe pair of hands. And now I guess he needs to make those really hard choices, which I don't think has actually changed very much between last week and this week.

28:10Will Bain:No, that's going to be the thing, Lucia, going forward, isn't it? That somewhere is going to get squeezed down the track and a lot of people are going to be unhappy about it, whether it be even perhaps in a sector like John Healy's old job where you sort of squeeze some of those departments in. I don't know, housing or something like that as well. Do you think people are ready for the fact that actually these are going to come with choices, trade-offs, spending more on defence? I would imagine so. I think it's inevitable. I mean, he's trying to do something like, you know, balancing economic growth with that fiscal responsibility that Randy mentioned earlier, you know, that discipline that he's got to have in there.

28:50So I think that they're sort of laying the ground to say, look, we are working within these rules. There isn't going to be a magic pot of money at the end of it. And so I think that awareness, it should be there. But whether people, you know, with the optimism that is coming into this feel, you know, that this is going to change overnight, I don't think so. I think people are wise enough to understand that there are those tradeoffs.

29:17Will Bain:And in the background, Randy, we were talking to the IFS right at the start of the week on the programme about this on Monday, that sort of lingering debt and paying for all that debt that's still there as well. Having to try and chip away at that whilst boosting the growth that the guys have just mentioned. It is. I mean, if we look at our gilts today, they're up to 5.1%. That's the interest level we're paying on the 10-year. So that continuously goes up. And the recent activity we've seen now in the Middle East with rising inflation doesn't help that situation. so at some point this Labour government and Labour MPs are going to have to make some tough decisions.

29:52Will Bain:Yeah, and we will be covering those on the programme. I'm sure the panel will be digging into them when those come along. Thanks so much as always for your time. Linda Yu is going to be leaving us now. Linda, thanks as always for being with us. Really appreciate it. Yeah, pleasure. Linda Yu from Oxford University and London Business School there. Plenty more from Randeep and Lucia in the second half of the programme where we're going to look at this tourist tax in Edinburgh and also the state of finances across English cricket. Wake up to money with Will Bain. This is summer at its peak. Whole Foods Market Summer Fruit Fest is your invitation to eat the season.

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30:49Will Bain:Morning, welcome back to Wake Up To Money on Friday the 24th of July where our panel this morning are Lucia Maguire, Managing Director of the Bolton-based Audiovisual Supplier TVD Group and Randeep Somal, Fund Manager at M &G Investments. 85058 to keep your texts coming in or 08085 909693 if you want to join the conversation in the last half hour of the program. Now from today, visitors staying in paid overnight accommodation in Edinburgh will pay a 5 % charge for the first five nights of their stay. That's because Edinburgh's visitor levy or tourist tax has come into force. Jane Marr, Labour leader of Edinburgh City Council, spoke to the Today programme yesterday on the reason behind the tax.

31:30Anyone who lives in Edinburgh will know that tourist numbers have risen dramatically. and although we now welcome visitors all year round, not just in the summer, all of this inevitably comes with extra cost and until now local residents have paid that cost and that just doesn't seem right.

31:52Will Bain:Well, alongside Randip and Lucia, we're joined by Neil Ellis, the chair of the Edinburgh Hotels Association and runs Place Hotels in the city as well. Neil, morning. Thanks for being with us. Good morning, Will. What do you make of all this then? Well, it's been on the cards now for several years and the argument has long gone in terms of whether we want the visitor levy to come into force or not and administer it. We now need to make the best of it and ensure that it's spent in appropriate areas and that we get the message across to visitors that whilst it is a cost to them that it will be spent on improving Edinburgh for them and for future visitors to come.

32:30Will Bain:Not to re-litigate the war, so to speak, but what side of that argument were you on? Did you think, you know, listening to the council leader there talk about the extra pressure on services, were you on that side of it or was it another kind of burden? We've already been talking about the pressures on hospitality in the first half of the programme, an extra burden that you didn't need. Well, the cost to businesses, especially accommodation providers in administering this, is severe in some cases. Whilst we recognise that it's a huge investment and it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to raise this kind of funds.

33:06What we didn't want to see was it being swallowed up into general taxation and spent on existing projects. We wanted it to be new and fresh money. In terms of what Councillor Ma said there, there is increasing pressures on the city, but accommodation providers have been the ones that have been given the full burden in terms of administering this and collecting the revenue. on behalf of the city council. We wanted to make sure that whilst the money was coming in, it needed to be spent on cleanliness, including increasing security, looking after the visitor experience in the city and providing security, extra police, which was one of the major points that the council wanted to do.

33:55Will Bain:And is it, Neil, is it pulled off for those things, ring fence for those things? There has been, there's 45 new police officers, for example, was one of the announcements that were made and they actually started at the beginning of this month. We wanted to see the actual visitor experience being better, public realm, the avenue into the city, extra cleanliness. That is something that we would want to see rolled out as soon as possible. This city is dirty in points and we want to make sure that that is ticked off right from the beginning. The council is under pressure. We see that all the time, but we want to work with them and ensuring that it's one team, Team Edinburgh, and that the visitor is at the heart of this.

34:41They're the ones that are paying this levy and everybody's going to benefit.

34:45Will Bain:How it's being administered, do you agree with that? This percentage rather than, you know, if you're going to Manchester or places like that, it's just a flat rate in pounds, right? that this will be a percentage of your stay? Yeah, I suppose the percentage has been the most complicating part of it. The Scottish Government allowed the percentage to be there along with a flat rate and Edinburgh chose the percentage. The understanding was that the percentage was chosen as its future proofs any rate increases in terms of with inflation. So it's inflation proofing the actual take. And presumably those who perhaps have got deeper pockets are staying in a more expensive state are going to pay a little bit more than people who are staying in a cheaper premises?

35:28Well, they will do, yes. Edinburgh is open all year round and it has budgeted accommodation and expensive accommodation, luxury accommodation. It has a range for everybody and everybody's budgets.

35:41Will Bain:And looking ahead then, obviously a really key, comes into force at a really key time of year for the city, right? I'm guessing after Hogmanay and New Year, the festival is your busiest time or is it even busier than that time of year? Well, August is predominantly the busiest time of the year. September is also busier as is Hogmanay. But what we have to remember is that Edinburgh's open all year round. And whilst the rates for accommodation are higher in the likes of August because it is supply and demand and there are newer hotels coming into the city, what we have to remember is we're open all year round, 365 days of the year.

36:17there are cheaper and less expensive times to come and visit the city. And we employ over 36 ,000 people in tourism and hospitality in the city. And these jobs are more or less guaranteed all year round.

36:30Will Bain:Is it looking forward to it with the festival or is it at this stage for you shuddering at the amount of work it might involve? Well, the large amount of work's been done already, Will. You know, we've spent a lot of time in working groups and in collaboration with each other and different partners across the city to make sure that this is rolled out as smoothly as possible. But what we have to first of all and foremostly say is thank you to the visitors for coming to Edinburgh. Edinburgh is a world class, amazing city and we want people to keep coming here. And we don't want this visitor levy to side, you know, to side and be a detractor from what is a beautiful, beautiful town and city.

37:08Will Bain:It'll be interesting to drop in on how it goes. Do come back on again and chat to us about how it's going, Neil. Really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you. Neil Ellis there, the chair of the Edinburgh Hotels Association, runs Place Hotels in Edinburgh. What's your take on that, Lucia? What do you make of it as an idea? I think it's quite widespread now. We go on holiday abroad and quite a lot of places have a tourist tax. As you said, Manchester, I think that introduced a couple of years ago. So I think it's becoming more the norm. I think it's great, you know, Edinburgh is such a fantastic city and it would be great if people can clearly see that that money is being invested back into the city.

37:49Acceptance should certainly grow if it's visible. I just think that that part about the transparency of how that money is being spent will be important going forward.

37:57Will Bain:That's really interesting, isn't it? And we often see that with sort of business improvement districts in town and city centres and things like that, don't we, as well, about what that money is ring-fenced to go to. Randy, your thoughts on that? Yeah, we should also remember that when tourists come, they do pay other taxes as well. The businesses they stay with pay business taxes. VAT still gets paid as well. But clearly, these cities need to generate more capital. And I think they see the tourists as being less sensitive in being able to pay it. Well, I know a lot of you are perhaps listening on Radio Scotland this morning.

38:30Will Bain:So if you're in the Edinburgh area, perhaps you work like Neil in the hospitality sector. What do you make of it all? 85058 is the text number 08085 909693. We'd love to know your thoughts before we leave you this morning here on Wake Up To Money. Going to dedicate a bit of a chunk of the programme now, though, to the financial health of cricket, I guess, around the country. The 100, of course, is back up and running. Been some exciting cricket in that already across the BBC. Got underway again this week for its sixth edition. And you might remember about this time last year we were chatting on the programme.

39:00Will Bain:We had Richard Gould, in fact, the chief executive of the ECB here on the programme, talking about selling stakes in those 100 franchises, many of them going, of course, to people who own the Indian Premier League cricket franchises, an absolute boon of investment,£500 million plus coming into the game that was going to be redistributed, not just between those teams that host 100 franchise, but in theory to the rest of county cricket more widely. And yet an interesting report earlier this week from Leonard Curtis, the professional services firm, they do an annual report on the health of financial, the financial health of cricket here in the UK, basically saying the haves and have-nots are getting bigger despite that supposed winful.

39:40Will Bain:So we wanted to dig into what's going on and how we kind of address that, I suppose, going forward. And Emma White is with us this morning, the Chief Exec of Leicestershire County Cricket Club, of course, the reigning Division II champions, and Ashley Giles, former England International, now the Chief Exec at Worcestershire County Cricket Club, with us as well. Morning both. There wasn't a crazy amount, Emma, as a cricket fan that struck me as being that surprising in that report this week. But is it the idea that this was meant to help sort of, if not level the playing field, perhaps prop up those less financially well-off counties and that doesn't appear to be happening down the track by their kind of forecasting?

40:21Yeah, I mean, I think we've got to bear in mind that the figures that were used were 2024 figures and a lot has changed since then. I think there's no denying that there is a gap between the host and the non-host counties. I'd also say that it is probably widening. But there's a lot to be positive about as well for the non-host counties. So, you know, the hundred money has given us all breathing space and an opportunity for a bit of a reset and to look to invest in strategies that are revenue generating for our counties. I just don't think there's any point looking over the garden wall and wishing you were somebody else.

41:04You know, I just think it would be best for all of the non-horse counties to be the best that they can be for themselves. We're all very different. We all have our own huge positives. And as long as we can capitalise on those, I think we'll all be OK.

41:21Will Bain:What has that money been used for, Ashley, so far? It's 400 grand-ish, isn't it, that clubs have got so far from the 100 money. What's the type of things that you at Worcestershire, for example, have been using it for? Hi, yeah, morning. I mean, firstly, to start, I think you're right. The report's really interesting and detailed, and it's a good resource. But, you know, are we surprised that Surrey, Lancashire, Hampshire, and Warwickshire are the top four? Oh, well, you know, no. It doesn't really tell us anything we don't know. and as Emma alluded to, the seismic changes last year in the cricket landscape with the money that came in from the 100.

42:01And it has changed the picture for many of us. So for a start, our ability to pay down our debts just gives us a huge amount of breathing space. So at the moment, and I know what everyone means, rather the haves and have-nots, it's probably a bit more the haves and have-mores, I think after last year now that gap is increasing or widening between I think what we can call the host counties of the 100 and the rest of us but to Emma's point we've all got purpose and the purpose of the 18 counties is absolutely still there and although the scale may be different we are all still counties who develop players are centres for sport, entertainment, the community, conferencing and events.

42:56We all do those things, but on a slightly different scale, as I say. So for us, we sell, per our population, we probably over-index on ticket sales. It just so happens that Worcestershire is quite a low population.

43:11Will Bain:Is the elephant in the room, actually, and you've worked, obviously, at one of those big clubs, actually, as well, and the club you played for in Warwickshire and also for the ECB. Is the elephant in the room a little bit when I was looking through? I mean, the report is looking at revenue. We're obviously a business programme. Lots of our listeners here will know that revenue isn't actually necessarily always the most important metric to look at. It's profit. And actually, when you look at even some of those big counties, I mean, Lancashire scraped to a profit last year, and a lot of it was topped up by the sort of one-off dividends from the 100 money, the same at Surrey in terms of the overheads.

43:44Will Bain:Is that a big challenge for the game full stop? One side, growing revenues. And two, the cost of owning these kind of facilities all year when they can't be used for a lot of the year and they're big lumps of land. Yeah, absolutely. So we talk even at Worcestershire a lot about cricket being at our core, but we have to be really diverse businesses that support the cricket. we can't just rely on six to ten days of of revenue generating cricket a year to prop the business up that's just not you know just doesn't make good business sense so absolutely that diversification across all of us is really important and sometimes just be careful what you wish for because you know yeah we don't want to be Surrey or based where Surrey are or Lancashire's business but they have the same issues as us they're just on a much bigger scale so if I you You know, when I speak to Steve Elworthy, I know the rising costs, the change in NI, you know, are all affecting or affecting all of us.

44:47But as I say, the scale is just much, much different.

44:50Will Bain:What are some of those things then, Emma? And I know part of the reason that you came in at Leicestershire, right, was your background working in other kind of sort of entertainment, sports entertainment businesses. What have you tried to do to grow that year round revenue that Ashley's talking about, but also sweating the revenue when the cricket's on, if you like? Well, we've got all sorts of exciting things going on. And fairly luckily for me, I guess that's something that Leicestershire hadn't done brilliantly in the past. So I've got a bit of a blank canvas, which is great. I mean, on the 5th of September, we've got our proms on the pitch, which is quite an unusual event for a county cricket club to hold.

45:30It's a 70-piece orchestra, a big family day, really pulling the community in. and then we're also hosting the Diwali fireworks for Leicester this year as well which will be an amazing event and again engaging with all of our local community and really showing the the county ground in its in its best light and I completely agree with Ashley we can never forget that our core business is cricket and we've always we can't take our eye off the ball with that we really can't but when we aren't playing cricket we need to be busy because we can't have things set empty because we just aren't going to break even that way um so yeah it's exciting i find it really exciting times you know and we're looking at things that are right you know a little bit outside the box as well i think just putting on a a music night um hosting a big known band isn't going to cut it anymore so you've just got to think a little bit outside the box which is I do like the challenge.

46:35Will Bain:Yeah, and we've seen plenty of hotels. The hotel, obviously, at New Road now, where Ashley is. There's hotels at a big part of the Rose Bowl in Hampshire and up at Old Trafford over the way from us here as well. On the cricket side of things, both, Ashley perhaps first and then Emma, how do you get more people back through the gates again then for that core product, county cricket, which presumably is the expensive one, right? because you're staffing it and running facilities for 10 hours all day, four days. We saw the shift a few years back to most of these games being over the weekends. That doesn't seem to have completely solved the problem.

47:14Will Bain:And I sort of don't see quite where that issue is ever going to be rode back, particularly the way the calendar is with the 100 right in the middle of the summer and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and that's why I talked about six to 10 days because that's your white ball cricket. That's really your revenue generating cricket. Red Bull cricket, we all know its importance, you know, from the history of the game to our memberships and of course to developing future England players. But I would say most of us probably break even with Red Bull cricket. But it's the white ball matches and it's something I think we've done really well.

47:54You know, I'm very proud of the steps we've made. and not just across hospitality areas which have grown significantly, but across all areas. We talk a lot about great experiences and whether you're a member, a first-time supporter, a visitor for something else, or in one of our hospitality suites, we want people to come in and have great experiences. So almost whatever happens on the field, they can walk away and go, okay, yeah, we saw some exciting cricket. We might not have got over the line this time, but, oh, wow, food was great. How we were greeted was brilliant, brilliant atmosphere. that's what we've got to work on.

48:28So we get repeat visitors and people who want to come back and follow cricket.

48:32Will Bain:I guess there's a pace element to that now, though, as well, isn't there? The needing to grow that quickly at this point. Emma, while we've been chatting, Steve from Essex has texted in, a big fan of his local county team at Essex. And the sense that he gives here, he says, you know, our ground and pavilion is in badly need of improvement. Our changing rooms facilities for visiting teams is a marquee. We don't have a hundred team. And most people I speak to at the club are not interested in that format. I don't think the cricket authorities care about smaller counties. Yes, we have this short term money from the franchises, but long term, they only see the test playing counties as their main concern.

49:04Will Bain:Do you share that fear that actually what they would like is the market to work this out? And they would like there to be no Worcestershire's and no Leicestershire's and no Northamptonshire's and just eight or nine, perhaps 10 big city franchises. I don't share that fear. I think there's room for all of us. And I think we all have a really important part to play. Ashley alluded to the development of players, and that's something that Worcestershire is very good at and Leicestershire isn't bad at either. And I think that's really important. I also think that there's a need for geography-wise to spread cricket throughout the UK and Wales.

49:49And I think that's very important as well. So for cricket, it's self-reported.

49:56Will Bain:But can the market do that on its own? Because at the moment, it seems to be being left to the market, doesn't it? And it's always going to be dictated, as Ashley was talking about earlier. If you're based in South London, near where loads of people with disposable income and no families are going back to Clapham or wherever every night, then you're going to get those people coming in and spending that money. Do we actually need to, in a way that American sport does, perhaps ring-fence some of these teams? You know, you would never start the NFL with the Green Bay Packers now, but yet they exist.

50:22Will Bain:Do we need to actually be a bit more interventionist as a governing body to protect some of these counties? Maybe. And I think the ECB do try and support all of us in their own way. I think maybe that could be looked at in the future as that gap does start to widen because it is widening and we all know it is. But I think as long as we can be the best at what we are, I think we will look after ourselves as well. And I think, you know, all of the CEOs of all the non-host counties are making plans with the money that we received from the hundred to future proof ourselves. And that's what it's for.

51:04Will Bain:And for you, Ashley, future proofing also looks like, you know, flooding is a huge issue at home in Worcester, isn't it? So what's the latest on that as well? I know you've been talking to members about potentially moving from New Road. Yeah, we've got a very unique problem. And so we're looking at an additional venue. We're just going through the stages now of looking at different sites where... Would that be in Worcester, the city itself? It'll be close to Worcester. I can't give too much away, obviously, for commercial reasons. But, you know, we understand, we want to stay close to that community.

51:41But we are Worcestershire's as well. You know, that's what we are. I just want to go back to the other point as well. I mean, that's the main thing on the horizon for us. But I think the biggest pressure right now and a trap we don't need to fall in is almost the performance pressure, which all of us competing on a level playing field on the field, because that also is not that easy right now. because the ability to spend on players is much greater with those with higher revenues. And the worst thing we can do, we have to be ourselves. Let's have a kind of financial arms race in that. Yeah, we have to cut our cloth accordingly.

52:17Will Bain:We're just about out of time. We really appreciate both your time. Ashley Giles and Emma White, the Chief Execs of Worcestershire and Leicestershire. Big thanks to Randy and to Lucia Maguire as well. And to you for listening to Wake Up To Money this morning. Wake Up To Money with Will Bain. What's that saying about not letting the truth get in the way of a good story? Well, I'm Carell Prince, and I'm in the way. Online, I catch out some of the biggest names in football, holding their tall tales to account. But now, the tables have turned. Can I spot the truth from the lies? As those same guys who I try to catch, try and catch me out?

52:51Roll the tapes. I'm Carell Prince, lie detector, on the Football Daily Podcast. Listen on BBC Sound.

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