What's behind the bond selloff?

25:13How does that make you feel hearing that tale there from Jeevan? Personally, I love new tech. I love innovation. And I've been watching the iterations of the smart glasses over the years because they have actually been around for a while. So I personally would try them, but I also understand why people are cautious. And I think this is actually another example of where new tech is potentially being released faster than the social norms around it are actually maybe ready for it. But, you know, look, with any new technology, there are always going to be legitimate concerns around trust security, how it affects people's lives.

25:52But I think, you know, in some ways the newest release, the Metaglasses, they're quite impressive, right? And part of the reason there's been such a backlash is because they're quite easily camouflaged in everyday life. So, you know, back in the earlier iterations of these types of devices, you had the Google Glass, which was almost, I think, over 10 years ago, and then the Apple Vision Pro, which was a bit more recent, but they were very obvious. They looked like something, you know, out of Star Trek or more like a VR headset. So they were quite hard to hide. The issue is this is really a situation where they do just look like a very stylish pair of sunglasses and we'll have Ray Bents, right?

26:33And that trust issue, Jager, because many people do like the idea of new tech. They're interested in it, both from a hobby perspective, but also from a, can this actually increase my productivity, improve my life in some way? When you see that a company like Meta are leading the way, you know, more than 80 % of global sales on this, and then at the same time, you know, yesterday on Wake Up To Money, We're going to be hearing plenty more in the days to come about this new court case going through the courts in the United States where, you know, some very strong claims about Meta. Yesterday in court, we heard how Meta, the accusation goes that Meta intentionally hooked a generation of children on Facebook and Instagram.

27:20You know, this is the biggest legal challenge that they've faced at Meta so far. and real questions over these things that have been around for decades now. The idea of technology companies waiting for society to see if this is the right thing or not. In reality, that doesn't happen, does it? The questions come years later, not before something is actually released. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think there is a balance to be struck. I don't think the answer is to completely resist innovation because we wouldn't get anywhere if that was our attitude towards technology. But at the same time, there is a responsibility, I think, for some of the largest tech companies who are doing things that are on the cutting edge and changing the way that society works.

28:12There's a responsibility to make sure that we're introducing things in a responsible way, explaining it clearly, outlining the impacts and giving people confidence in how these new technologies are designed to be used and how they can be used and how they should be used. I don't know that Meta have fully achieved that here with their glasses, but it's a question for all technology companies releasing new things. And, you know, we go through those same thought processes ourselves. It's how can we get customers comfortable? I think the first question for us always comes back to security. And, you know, we're able to very quickly explain how our product is secure.

28:50We're hosting some of the most confidential data that businesses hold. And so we need to give our customers confidence that we're handling that in the right way. And so, you know, we've had to answer that question for the last 10 years since we were founded. And And it's an easy one. You know, we've got a very, very, very impressive security advisory board, including the ex-director general of MI5. We use cybersecurity, another company that's well known in the UK, Darktrace. And we have all of the right infrastructure in place to ensure that client data isn't shared outside of the environment.

29:28So, yeah. So that trust is clearly a huge thing as technology advances. Russ, do you notice when we see these array of tech companies that have such an imprint on our lives, is there an element of investors making a judgment on whether the world is trusting these companies or not for the future? And if reputations are actually being hit, if it's Meta rolling it out, if it's Elon Musk rolling it out, if it's Apple, if it's Google, whoever that might be, that actually reputation and trust is a big part of it. Yeah, I mean, we talked about what the risks are for a bond investor earlier on. From somebody investing in companies in shares in equities, what are the three things that over time can do a company in?

30:13Competition, changes in customer tastes, and if they don't get you, the regulator will take a really close look at how much money you're making and potentially do something about it. And in this case, clearly regulatory pressure is building on some of these companies. You mentioned that lawsuit. It's already made to about a billion dollars, I think, on other appealing. So the regulator is definitely looking at these companies ever more close to because more and more people, there are enough people out there who are feeling uncomfortable with what they're doing to raise challenges. So these companies are having to tread very carefully.

30:41That said, Apple is still worth$4.5 trillion. So somebody somewhere is still extremely comfortable that they've got this powerful ecosystem that customers either are really happy to embrace or feel it's just too much hard work to go and use another one. And investors still like that. So you can pay$4.4 trillion for Apple or you can pay$1.8 trillion for the world's seven biggest oil companies, on which we are still fairly heavily reliant. But clearly the market is telling you it's got a lot more faith in the future of Apple's business profits than it has in those of the oil companies, even allowing for what we're seeing in the Straits of Firmas right now.

31:15Very interesting. 85058, your thoughts, please. It was also intriguing that in Jeevan's reporting there, she mentioned that Wetherspoons had banned smart glasses, which is maybe not a surprise if you'd seen the headlines at Weatherspoons as banned customers from playing music, taking calls on speakers as well. Prep for a busy week with Whole Foods Market. Start your day with fully cooked breakfast sausages from Amy Liu, 365 brand frozen waffles with no bleached flours, and of course Whole Foods Market eggs, which are all cage-free or better. In the evening, bring home a build-your-own family meal that feeds four for just$35.

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32:33Wake up to money with Sean Farrington. Good morning. It's not far off 20 to 6 on this Wednesday morning. It's the 19th of August. Thank you for all of your messages. Plenty on whether we are a cashless society already or not and where are cheques and cash still used. Somebody gave a shout out to cheques a little bit earlier. on smart glasses, as we were just discussing. Will in Brighton's been in touch saying regarding smart glasses, but including everything really, he says, we've all become magpies. The world loves shiny new things and tech now develops overnight. But at what cost? Just because it's been invented, should it be automatically adopted?

33:13Privacy already is no longer achievable and content is king. Quality isn't the concern anymore and churn of images is the goal. It's a race to the bottom for media and individuals. Musk, et cetera, have gone quiet recently. Have they realised they've unleashed too much innovation too quickly and without guardrails, it's left to run riot? Thank you so much for that message. Well, 85058, your thoughts on the world of smart glasses, on the world of cash or not? David Brum says, bar staff and waiters really miss out when customers use cards on phones. Somebody else, Carol's been in touch saying, am I self-employed podiatrist with mainly elderly patients?

33:54they either pay by cash or checks i refuse to have a card machine as you have to pay two and a half percent for each transaction so do i charge the patient extra or have to lose out for card payments there's one decision they have to make helen in preston but in touch saying my 91 year old mother still regularly writes her children checks i do her online clothes shopping also food shopping then she reimburses me with the check fortunately i can pay it on my banking app So not that inconvenient. Talking about cash, lots of small businesses, shops, market stores, etc. prefer cash. Cost of card payments hits them hard.

34:29I wonder if you're a business where you've made that transition more, you might have had the view that that cost of card payments hits you hard. But over the years, have you been able to maintain the not taking card payments position? Have you had to move towards it? Have you felt you had to move towards card only? So many businesses doing that now. Fascinated in your aspects on this as well. Keith's been in touch saying, many of my customers pay me in cash and checks. I had three of them yesterday. Keith, let us know what business you are in. And Joan in Aberdeenshire, thank you, Joan, for your message.

35:03We've got plenty more coming through, but this one for now. Keep them coming, 85058. In some parts of rural Scotland, we still have shops and food outlets who prefer cash for smaller payments or even cash only. Some of us older folk cannot carry phones around, and women's clothes often don't have pockets for phones. Joan, we've talked to entrepreneurs over the years who have made a good go of their businesses because they've created the right types of women's clothes that have pockets in the right places for something like this. Still gaps in the market. A folded note, says Joan, or a debit card is much easier to transport.

35:36Checks, ironically, are more secure than they used to be. I last wrote one a week ago. What was that for, Joan? 85058. Keep your messages coming. Join in the conversation about this. I've got to bring in John Howells, who is the chief executive of Link, which is the UK's main cash machine network. John, good morning to you. Good morning, Sean. Nice to be with you. So we've had all of these messages coming in, John, because we're talking about these new numbers out from UK finance that represent the financial sector in the UK, that only 8 % of all transactions in the UK last year were made in cash.

36:14Back in 2015, it was down from 45%. Now, we had somebody get in touch earlier saying, if that level of adoption was used in any other walk of life, you'd say we were there. You wouldn't be wondering if the change was still happening. Does it feel to you like the UK is a cashless economy now? I don't think we're there yet. Now, it is true that cash use for payments is going down. I mean, I run Link. We look after all the ATMs in the country, and that's where most, 90 % plus of the UK's cash come from. So we really can see the trend. And there is no doubt that cash use is going down for payments.

36:53When I joined Link 10 years ago, it was, goodness me, six out of 10 payments. You can see from these latest figures, it's now less than one in 10. But the interesting thing is that cash in circulation, so cash which is actually out there in your wallet, in your purse, under your bed, is going up. So that increased last year by 7%, which is a record increase. So even though we are using cash less to pay for stuff, we are relying on it a lot more as a contingency, as a store of value. And our research shows that 80 % of UK adults really value cash and would not like to see it go. Just explain there, John, why.

37:34So you're saying there is more cash about. There is more cash out there. Why? It is some of the reasons that you've had your listeners call in for, so things like elderly having difficulty or people using it to budget. But the key reason for the majority is as a contingency. We're worried about digital systems going down. So we keep 30, 40 pounds in our wallets, even if we are digital users for most of our payments. We don't want to lose the use of cash because if digital systems go down, which they still do at the moment, then you've got cash as a contingency. And I think until we get to the position where digital payments are completely reliable and never go down, there's a role for cash for consumers.

38:23But it's important for the UK security as well. John, is this in, you know, we often talk about real terms, you know, and wake up to money. And because obviously as the price of things goes up over the years, you know, if you've got 40 quid in your wallet stored in a drawer in the kitchen at home somewhere, that may well be the same as having a tenner stored in your wallet decades ago. Is this about that or is this taking into account price rises? And I just wonder how we get an ideal comparison there. No, I don't think it's just inflation. I mean, we've got two things going on in these figures.

39:01There is no doubt that there is a small but a very important group of two to five million people who use cash either a lot because they prefer to, or they have no choice. They've got no access to digital. And so some of the stories you hear about elderly and vulnerable, those will be heavy cash users, and we've got to protect them as a society. Making up, so such heavy cash users that they make up for the huge proportion of the population that barely uses cash at all. Barely uses is still once a month. So you've got 50, 55 million adults in the UK. The report rightly points out you've got 20 million, I think they've got in there, who barely use cash at all, less than once a month.

39:45But there's 35 million people who are using cash pretty much once a month, sometimes once a week. You've got that small group of 2 million where we've got to protect them. But the key point is those large group of consumers, they do not want to see cash disappear as an option in the UK. and for our security in times of heightened security risk, you've got all the problems of potential geopolitical issues, you've got to have cash working as part of your payment system. If you look at countries, you take Ukraine, Ukraine which had been at war with Russia for five years, I think, now. Ukraine has got really excellent acceptance of payments at the point of sale, 95 % and above, even though it's been bombed by Russia.

40:29And if you look at Ukraine's payments, its strategy is to have cash right the way through to digital and cards working there and that's what gives them the resilience that's what we need in the UK as well. Interesting, Dari's been in touch saying, morning Sean, love listening on my commute to work in Geneva, great to have you with us Dari, he says regarding a cashless society the Swiss love their cash so much so they voted this year to have cash protected in their national constitution and Pardeep's been in touch from Leamington Spa saying we went to Barcelona, used our Monzo card, felt really safe and secure, and within two minutes you could see the transition on the app.

41:07We had a message a little bit earlier, John, about, let me dig it out. Oh, yes, somebody's saying cash and crypto are a gift to crime. How much of the cash that is out there, have you got a proportion in mind, do you think is used for criminal purposes? Is that a number that is followed as well? Because a few people often get in touch about that aspect of cash. Picking up on the Spanish point, of course, it's great to use your app in Spain, but Spain and Portugal last year are a classic example of what happens when digital systems go down and cash was the only way to pay in Spain. And our research shows that, yes, whilst, of course, every payment system is going to be used in fraud in some sort of way, the people who use cash, the businesses and consumers using cash, using it because of a real need, because they haven't got access to digital or a real desire to have an alternative to digital payments and not be completely reliant on digital networks which come down.

42:12So I've got no evidence that cash is any more or less used to support crime than any other digital payment system. Russ, when you hear about those changes that John's laying out there of the world of cash, how does that tally with how you see people dealing with their money these days? We are an online platform. So in that respect, it's something that we deal with every single day. is that our customers, you know, we help our customers invest and we help them look after their money and achieve the goals and dreams that they have in mind. So it's entirely second nature to us. But I think if you're asking me, do I have a little pot of cash in the house?

42:52I do actually, but I use it again for the prices, for nothing else. So don't tell Mrs. Mould. It is in a particular part of the house with my binoculars and my phone books. And it does go up and it does go down, but that is all I use it for. But no, we are a digital platform. It's what we use all the time. But in the end, it comes back to the issue that you have raised and Jaden raised and John has raised. It's about trust. And it's interesting you said all, it no longer refers to pound sterling, I think was the phrase that you used. Well, currency has not been linked to the precious metals for a very, very, very long time, Sean.

43:26And that is, of course, one of the reasons why gold and silver bugs are out there right now. And the gold and silver price are going up because they're telling you that the continued depreciation in real terms of currency will continue because of inflation and because of money printing. So they are telling, Goldbugs are agreeing with Voltaire's old gag about fiat currency ultimately returns to its intrinsic value, which is zero because it's just a piece of plastic or a piece of paper. Well, Jager, it is interesting, isn't it, about how we go about payments these days. You know, if you have a day out with your mates and you're settling up at the end of the day, we've got Jager Glucino who's with us, chief of staff at the legal AI firm Luminance.

44:05and you're settling up at the end of the day. People will have like a variety of ways these days. Some might want to hand you 20 quid cash. Others might want to make a more traditional bank transfer. Some send you a Revolut link. Some ask you for what your PayPal email address is. And sometimes you can just have balances sitting within these apps that you could just use again for something else without really necessarily having a feeling that cash has changed hands the way we might have felt it years ago. That's entirely true. I think it's one of the greatest areas of progress we've probably made in the last decade.

44:51I have to hold my hands up and say I'm a total convert to this trend of being cashless. I don't love to handle cash. I don't know if that's just me or the same with others, but I pay for probably everything using my phone. It's just convenient. I have backup phones. I have my cards around as backup as well, but I think the only cash I have in my house is in my four-year-old daughter's pink purse, which is the equivalent of a piggy bank these days. But no, I agree. I think it's interesting to see how many different modes of payment there now are. And the UK is a great example, But if we look beyond to other regions who are innovating fast in this area, you mentioned Monzoa Revolut, for example, online transaction, bank cards, cash, Apple Pay, for example.

45:45In, I think, China and India and in other places, they've now come up with ways of actually streamlining all of those different vendors and modes so that they're all done through sort of one neutral system, which I think is very, very interesting. And we haven't quite got there yet, but I think that is probably where things are heading. Very interesting. I like that still the place for, you know, when you need a pound coin for the shopping trolley is actually the kids' savings these days. That's the place to go. You need to pay the window cleaner with a note. And that is, unfortunately, kids, you'll be the banker for mum and dad for quite a while in that respect.

46:25John, we've just had a question come in before you go. John Hauser, who is the chief executive of Link, UK's main cash machine network. Somebody's just been in touch. Adrian asked the question, when are cash machines going contactless? He said, I got caught out the other day without a card and had to go home. Why can't we tap our phones and put in a pin? Yeah, I think that's an excellent point. It's exactly the sort of thing we need to be doing. I'm pleased to say the government has actually got its big old programme of National Payment Vision going on at the moment. We're contactless, I think will be part of it.

46:56So watch this space. I agree. We need to have variety in payments. But that means if you've got digital, you need to be able to turn it back into cash easily. And that means contactless. John, thank you for your time this morning. John Halsey, Chief Executive of Link. Thank you for all of your messages. We've just had a big old flurry of messages about smart glasses as well. Sonny's been saying, I run an opticians in workshop in North Nottinghamshire. I sell Meta Spectacles. Most clients are buying them for the technology, not for using them in a bad way, he says. And regards cash, when we pay£100 into a bank, we actually only receive£94 back from the bank.

47:30So we prefer debit card, which only costs 25 pence. I'm someone who's worked in retail for 33 years now. Society has changed. Well, thank you so much for your message, Sonny. Others saying, I use Meta Glasses in restaurants and bars to enable me to read menus and navigate my way around. This is from Margaret in Cardiff. These have been a magnificent support for people who are blind and partially sighted. Without the metaglasses, I cannot read anything. These have been a game changer for me. Doubt if Wetherspoons will make any concessions for blind or partially sighted people. Also, I always carry cash.

48:08Margaret, thank you for your message. 85058, another saying on the suggestion of my low vision AIDS officer. I purchase smart glasses and use them to read products in supermarkets, guide me in unfamiliar places, help me to identify toilets in crowded bars. Blanket bans concern me and would compromise my independence and may lead to disability discrimination claims, says Alan from the Rimney Valley. 850582, keep those messages. Right, Russ, we've had a hint already. Russ, this might be a noise that's familiar to him.

48:46OK, that is the sound of last year's E-ball festival. Not sure if you could hear Russ in there at York Racecourse. This year's event gets underway later today. The Queen in attendance as Royal Patron. The festival runs between today and Saturday. Prize money sits at just under£7.5 million. William Darby is the Chief Executive and Clerk of York Racecourse. William, good morning to you. A busy few days ahead. Ed, how is this year feeling, you know, customer-wise, confidence-wise compared to previous years? Oh, Sean, good morning. Really exciting for everyone here at York Racecourse. Yeah, we get underway with our big flagship today.

49:26Confidence-wise, we're really confident going into this week. We're 12 % ahead on our general admission sales. We've got the best horses in the world chasing record prize money. When you say 12 % ahead, is that sales of 12 % up on last year? That's right, Sean, and we had a good year last year. So the big meetings we've found this year are getting bigger. We've sold out twice already in the last month in July. But some of the shoulder days, the more ordinary days, they're sort of struggling. And I think that's what you've been hearing on the high street, sort of in restaurants and hospitality, that those big marquee events, which this Skybet Ybor Festival certainly is, are powering ahead.

50:10whereas some of those more nondescript, the quieter days, they're getting a bit quieter as people are saving their money for the big days. So, and do you see, does the spend on the big day make up for what you're not getting on, what you call sort of like those shoulder days, those quieter days? Well, it's in the round, I guess, Sean. Yeah, the big days, the spend is holding up very well and lots of innovations at the race course, so lots of new areas for people to enjoy food and drink and everything going on around the racecourse. And those big days to spend is very good. As you say, on the quieter days, then people are just having a nice day, maybe bringing a picnic in the centre of the course and doing it a different way, so enjoying their racing a different way.

50:58And all the different areas of the racecourse, you can almost find the area and the experience you want to experience through the day. Does it start to bring into question a little bit the existence of some of those quieter days in the racing calendar? Well, every day we have really good horses running and they all have a different theme and identity, whether that's a family day or a music day plus racing. So they all have their different place in our calendar. We race 18 times May to October, but these four days are when we take our sport onto a global stage and following on from Royal Ascot and Glorious Goodwood and the big meeting at Newmarket, this is the high summer for the elite sort of flat racing.

51:48Where you see the best horses. Sorry to interrupt you there, William. The line just dropped briefly. I thought you'd finished. I just wonder, when we've had a summer of sun the way we have, What impact does that have on people's attitude to whether it's buying a ticket, going to the races? Well, I think we had two months of incredibly dry, sunny weather. So that allowed people to plan ahead and think that, you know, it's that environment where you think, oh, we'll do something next Saturday. So we had some beautiful, glorious, sunny days racing through the summer. They've come to, the heat wave has ended in Yorkshire this week.

52:26So we've had a bit of rain overnight, just two millimetres. But, you know, we had some great race days during the summer and now we've got a bit of rain around today, but it looks brighter for the end of the week. We've seen, haven't we, William, that conditions have got a lot tougher. Are there added concerns for the animals this week because of what I'm assuming is much tougher ground after a summer of sun? No, the ground's in perfect condition, Sean. We have the best horses in the world. We have a huge team of vets and people looking after the horses. It's flat racing, it's beautiful summer ground.

53:11No, conditions are absolutely ideal for the horses and we're looking forward to welcoming the best athletes from all over the world. We've got horses coming in from Japan, from America. We'll have to wrap it up there, but hope you have a good few days. William Darby there. Clark, have you all? Wake Up To Money. That's it from Wake Up To Money. That's it from Wake Up To Money. You can download the podcast every Monday to Friday, so please make sure you subscribe. We'd also love it if you left us a review when you do. Get in touch. Keep the conversation going any time as well on social media. Use the hashtag WakeUpToMoney.

53:54BBC Radio 5 Live. Patrick Kielsey. Stumble in your way into Saturday mornings with great guests. Good morning, Jimmy Nesbitt. Good morning, the party. You're terrible. Kids taking down commentators. You've wiped the floor with our commentator key. And how does it feel? It feels nice. Football chants from the gods. Take me home. I did wrong. And the less said about the host, the better. Patrick Kielsey. Saturdays from 9. Listen on BBC Sound.

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