Finding your village in a digital world with Kate Westlund Tovsen

0:00Hello and welcome back to Where Did I Go? So today we're diving into a topic that I think many of us feel but rarely say out loud. Loneliness. Because the thing is, for whatever reason, so many different things at play I guess, motherhood can be one of the loneliest seasons of our lives. Even though we're often never alone, we're surrounded by kids, by partners, by colleagues. It is still so common that we spend the vast majority of that time feeling isolated. My guest today, Kate Westland-Tolfson, knows that feeling very well. She's the founder of the Society of Working Mums, which is an online community built to be exactly what its name suggests, a real village for women who are juggling work and motherhood and craving genuine connection.

0:44In this conversation, Kate and I talk about why loneliness feels so heavy in this season of life, as well as the story behind building Society of Working Mums and the surprising ways digital communities can become real lifelines. If you've ever felt like your village is missing, Kate has also got some really practical wisdom to help you start finding it, maybe online, maybe in real life, but always just kind of one small step at a time. So whether you're listening on your commute during nap time, maybe hiding in the bathroom for five minutes apiece, I just want you to remember today, you're not alone.

1:16There is a village out there for you and hopefully this episode will help you find it. Let's dive into it.

1:28Kate Westlund Tovsen:Hi, Kate. How are you doing today? Good. How are you? I'm doing so well. Thank you. Thank you so, so much for joining me today. Everyone who's listening to this will have heard a little intro about you before the episode begun, but I think it would be great to start by just telling us who you are, what you do, a little bit about yourself and what led you to create the Society for Working Mums. yeah uh thank you so much for the chance to talk to you i'm such a fan of the podcast even before it uh aired i was like i love everything about what thank you honey is doing so um yeah it's so fun to actually like be here talking to you so i'm a mom of two young kids who you might hear in the background because we thought it's early here we've not made it to pre-k drop off yet but I have two kids at the moment.

2:18Kate Westlund Tovsen:I live in rural Minnesota, so up near the Canadian border, which is no small part of the reason why I felt the need to create an online professional community because I have a great in real life community here. but there aren't a lot of professional, like corporate working moms where I live. And so, yes, we live in the Northwoods of Minnesota and I am a communications consultant in my day job. And then I started Society of Working Moms about a year and a half ago, which is an online Slack paid community for working moms of all ages and stages where moms go to give and receive help. Amazing so so talk to me a bit about the journey to concepting the idea of society for working moms I mean you've already touched on the fact that where you live you were missing that kind of professional village if you like but there must have been more than that what's the story?

3:18Kate Westlund Tovsen:Yes there was definitely more than that and when I started I actually didn't live here we moved here about a year ago, but when I first started it, we were actually living in the suburbs of the Twin Cities of Minnesota. And we were just far out that it felt like a really long haul for our friends to visit us. We were about 45 minutes from our nearest friend, about an hour from most people. And in that time, so we moved a year ago, but for like two years, my husband has been up here most of the time building this house that we live in now. There was a lot of compounding, like isolating factors.

4:01Kate Westlund Tovsen:And I think even if I were, you know, in a city center with a whole bunch of people around me, being in those really early motherhood days, so isolating and maybe even more isolating because you are expecting to be part of this village that you hear so much about. And then I know in my experience, when I became pregnant the first time, I was so excited and I felt like I was part of this club and I felt this like thread of connection with all of humanity. And then when I gave birth, I was like, actually, no, I feel very alone. I don't, I don't feel like there's any, you know, there, there was a village, but it was, it was not what I was expecting.

4:45No, I totally get that. I was also really confronted with a massive disconnect between my expectations of what it would like to be, like to be a mum, and then the reality that I found myself in, which was, you know, there is some, some buzz at the beginning after you give birth, people are checking in, and they're kind of interested in how you and the baby are doing but that very quickly peters out and everyone kind of gets on with their life and then you are very alone like and it it feels so heavy because it's such an especially the first time you have children I don't think it's I think the transition you go through with subsequent children is is different to that first one because it's like your whole world just shifts in hue like you're just everything is so different and you had no frame of reference for it and so being, yeah, you just sit with so many like, is this normal?

5:36Like, am I doing this right? Like, there must be something wrong here because X, Y, Z, and you just kind of, it's compounded by the fact that there's no one to just ask or just chat through those things with day to day. Yeah, exactly.

5:50Kate Westlund Tovsen:And I, you know, I have good friends who are working moms. I have a bunch of sisters and sisters-in-law and I still, like, I just didn't feel comfortable going to the group like chat thread and like asking some of the questions I had. And I think there's a real freedom to being able to like ask a group of strangers or relative strangers. Yes. And I think inside of Society Working Moms, you know, people are, it feels like your friends, but there, there is a level of like, there's like a buffer of anonymity there. That is really, I don't know. It's not, I'm not discounting my real life friendships, but it's just really helpful to have strangers to ask the questions and more people, you know, you can ask a question and dozens of people have been in that same situation.

6:40Kate Westlund Tovsen:So it's just helpful to, yeah, have, have that village and have what I, what I wish I had when I was in the early days, but what I'm so grateful, still grateful to have now. And the way that I've set it up is, you know greedily knowing that i would need help beyond these because i'm like i want it to be and and was really intentional about designing even just the beta test period to be all ages and stages and so there are moms who have kids who are already like out of the nest like who are empty nesters and they they're some of the most insightful like wise women in the group because even if they haven't seen exactly what you're going through, they just have years of perspective.

7:24Kate Westlund Tovsen:And I know when I was like freshly postpartum with my first, I don't know if it's popular in Europe, but there's the peanut app. And I mean, the peanut app is wonderful and it was a lifeline when I was using it, but it definitely felt like you were just in the trenches with everyone because everyone was in that really rough period. And so every time you're talking and it's so helpful, it's very helpful to be in the trenches with people. But at some point you need someone who's out of the trenches who can be like, it gets better. Like, I'm along with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a huge part of the design.

8:01Kate Westlund Tovsen:It is important for me to have the people a couple steps ahead and a couple steps to all be lifting each other. This is something that I've been really, this idea of being connected to women at all the stages of life is an idea that I've been circling around so much lately, because as I've been having a lot of these conversations, I think one of the biggest realizations I've had is that I think a ton of the anxiety we sit with in motherhood is that disconnection we have from generational wisdom. So if you think a few generations before, perhaps we would have lived in the same town, the same village with our whole family and wisdom would have passed from one woman to another just because we were connected physically there was that proximity and we were constantly learning from each other in that way and helping other women around us to kind of yeah guiding them through the experience of womanhood and as now we live such different lives so much more disconnected physically from that kind of generational knowledge it's it does drive anxiety because we walk into every phase of life with no sense of what to expect and then not having any like you say a field of view of what comes next and so you can't see what's outside of the trenches because there's no role model or whatever in your immediate sphere of view who can show you that or or kind of share their wisdom about what comes next.

9:30And I think it's just, I think it's really lovely that you've managed to build an online community that kind of replicates that in some way, that connecting different stages of womanhood together so that you have all the perspectives to lean into.

9:46Kate Westlund Tovsen:Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I love that. I love how you framed that. But I mean, yeah, it's so weird to talk about because I'm like, moms are everywhere. And working moms specifically are everywhere. And again, like to that, like, why did you create it? Like the, the why it's like, because I knew they were everywhere and yet I couldn't find anyone. And I think maybe, you know, it's hard to tell if the temperature has really shifted on LinkedIn or if my algorithm is changed. But like, before I started this, I didn't talk about working motherhood at all on LinkedIn because I was, you know, an independent consultant and I didn't want people to think that I couldn't do a job because I had young kids sometimes at home with me.

10:29Kate Westlund Tovsen:And so I just really, I separated that out pretty, you know, pretty cleanly. Now I'm like, I'm very vocal about work, mom, because it's kind of my shtick. But yeah, now I see more people talking about it. And yeah, it's hard to tell if there's actually been a temperature shift. I think there has. I definitely think there has. And I think a lot of people that I've spoken to have said when they, especially women who are perhaps in their 40s now or 50s, have said that when they were in my stage of motherhood, so really like our stage of motherhood, that toddler, young child era, you just could not complain outwardly in any way about finding it hard.

11:14That wasn't like a shared sort of conversation that they were able to have. It was expected to be very hidden. Like you said, you keep all your boxes separate because you outwardly needed to show that you had everything together. And that really drove that sense of like, there are mothers everywhere. So why can't I connect with anyone? And you couldn't do that because everyone was hiding and masking the fact that just it's really bloody hard. And I feel very lucky, actually, to be mothering at this stage in life. a generation of mums who have the language, have the space, have the, I don't know what the word is, have the courage, I guess, to demand more.

11:55And it's not that previous generations weren't courageous. I think it's just lots of things have leveled out in order for us to be able to have that conversation more openly. I think what I'm really curious about actually is what are some of the ways that women are sort of seeking out connection through the online community that you've created? Like what are some of the main ways that they're leaning into those types of connections to help them?

12:19Kate Westlund Tovsen:Yeah. I mean, there are, I don't know if you've been in Slack, like Slack, a Slack group before, but for people who haven't been in inside of Slack before, it's a workplace communication tool. It's not a community first tool, but you can kind of hack it to make it more community centric, which is what I and many other Slack community founders have done, but they, you can separate everything out by channels. And so it's nice because you can kind of like opt in or opt out of channels as you see fit. So when people join, they're in a general momming channel. There's also a water cooler, you know, kind of emulating the, you know, the office culture.

12:57Kate Westlund Tovsen:So maybe it's just like, oh, did anyone see the newest episode of Severance last night? And that's like perfect water cooler talk. There's also like a business owner's channel. I see how valuable that channel is both for asking questions, but also like hiring subcontractors who are, you know, who you know will be a good fit for a project. And so people are networking, like outside of the opportunities that I'm creating through programming, people are, you know, reaching out to each other to set up coffees and figure out what's next for them. And there are, there's a member matchmaking program as well.

13:35Kate Westlund Tovsen:So it'll connect you once a month or once a quarter, whatever you specify. And so it's just a nice way to like get outside of the Slack channels. Still online, but like, it's nice to connect one-to-one with people. That sounds, yeah. And it sounds really, really helpful. I would say like the vast majority of conversations that I have with my close friends right now is about how we navigate our careers while also you know it's where we are often me and my friends at least feel stuck between a binary choice of being present to the extent we want to be with our children and being present to the extent we want to be for our careers and it's like those two things feel really hard to align so I can really see the value of having that sort of matchmaker mentor style relationship building within the community to to have those conversations with people who are kind of especially if they've been there, done that type relationship and you can lean into their experience.

14:34Kate Westlund Tovsen:Like if people are visiting cities, they'll reach out and say, hey, I'm going to be going through like this city for work. Anyone want to meet up? So there's a lot of like informal kind of pop up one on one or one on two sort of meetups that just kind of naturally bubble up as people are passing through cities. I was just going to ask if there are some specific moments or threads or interactions that really stick with you as being moments that are just like really kind of powerful like wow that I'm so happy that those two people or however many people were able to connect on this topic because it's the outcome has been really special that's I love that question the things that come to mind immediately we had a woman who is pretty fresh into consulting and And she just started, you know, her company was just her last name, Inc.

15:25Kate Westlund Tovsen:And she like always hated it. She's like, I needed to like start. I needed to start somewhere. And so she came to the group and was like, I want a new name. Give me some ideas. And so people just like piled on with like, you know, takes on her name and her industry and like combinations and portmanteaus. And she ended up changing her brand to a name that another member had suggested. And then she worked with a different member to work on the trademark and all of the legal sort of aspects. So it's just so cool to be a part of her business story and for her to lean on the community, not just the business owners, like sub community, but the larger community to like rebirth.

16:14Kate Westlund Tovsen:this version of her consultancy. Yeah. That's like a work example. And then like a more personal, like the mom side example, we recently had someone who posted a picture of her, like, this is TMI, but like, you know, moms, we, we all get, we share it. She posted a picture of her like lower half like you know waist below post run and was like good news I ran my first mile since giving birth but like the bad news is I peed my pants like like I feel totally safe sharing this here like I'm not going to put it on my Instagram or certainly not LinkedIn but like so so nice like that is but you know like the value of like what that brings to someone is massive you know you can't understate how much just knowing you have a space where you can share that stuff that you would have just sat with in shame probably before and just being able to be like you know everyone laughing along with you and being like yeah that's yeah join the club type situation yeah and also just be able to to celebrate those wins because I think in early motherhood it is really all about those little wins that mile that 10 minutes whatever it is that you did that is getting back to a version of you that feels strong confident capable and so rare really that you have cheerleaders kind of seeing those milestones and there is something about the anonymity as well that is really safe right yeah it was nice to see people like just lay on with support of like, I've been there good for you for getting out and running a mile.

18:03Yeah.

18:04Kate Westlund Tovsen:Also pelvic, pelvic floor therapy really helped me like things that would help, but also just support just out of two other like great recent interactions, which I would love to see more of this happening in the group. So if any members are listening, keep, keep doing this. There was one where someone just said, I'm feeling kind of lonely today. Does anyone want to like get a virtual coffee? And she just dropped her scheduling link. Um, and I'm just like, that is, I just love that. Like, yeah, that someone can say, I need a little like lift today and I'm just going to like post to this group. And I can be confident that people will reach out and they will be, you know, quality people of heart who can like get in this moment.

18:50Yeah.

18:50Kate Westlund Tovsen:That was one great example. And then another was, um, a woman, she's a CEO. Um, and it's, you know, I think that's a different level of like loneliness, like being at the top of a company. And, and she was on a panel with a bunch of like big names and she was freaking out. She was like, does anyone want to just like give me some words of encouragement today? Cause I'm about to be a panel with Billie Jean King and like a bunch of celebrities but um so she just dropped her cell phone number like for people to like text her words that's amazing filed on like in slack to be like oh my gosh you're amazing like of course yeah or else you wouldn't have been invited to this panel um and then people like i guess one person actually did like text her cell phone and i just yeah to be able to ask a group of strangers is so special.

19:46They're just so nice because I can just, what I love basically about all of them is the vulnerability that people are kind of able to bring to the space. So they're like, let's take the person who's starting a new business. That's huge, right? And so much self-doubt creeps in at that moment about everything, the name you choose, the process you go through to get started and then through to the physical things that your body is doing or just the like internal monologues you're constantly having with yourself before you go and do a big thing being able to bring all of those usually silenced vulnerabilities and make them a shared conversation is just like really powerful actually yeah and then to see like the

20:31Kate Westlund Tovsen:professional version like you know see their polished version on linkedin and be like oh, she also is having trouble with incontinence or she also is like, you know, she's leading this company and she still has self-doubt. Like it's just helpful to see. Yeah. The whole person and you know, all of what makes working motherhood so messy and wonderful. Yeah. I feel like it's, it's just nice to have a front row seat to that. I saw a, I don't remember who it was, but a mom on LinkedIn recently shared like someone like emailed her being like, boohoo, I'm a mom. I chose to be a mom and it's hard. Like someone was just sending an email being like, why are you complaining?

21:16Kate Westlund Tovsen:Like you chose this life. I was like, you can certainly open yourself up to that on LinkedIn, but like in a group designed for working moms, like. Yeah. You know, it's going to be a safe space yeah and I I also saw that same email and was just like this is exactly why like you put people in a situation where they feel they cannot speak their truth because it implies that they think something about their you know attitude towards motherhood generally and it just it keeps women small and it keeps them stuck in not being able to say I need and demand and deserve more than the feelings that I am sat with every day.

22:01And it has nothing to do with my children. I love them immeasurably beyond words, but also I am a person that has the right to feel things. And being in a group of women who are moderated to make sure they're not jerks, basically, means you can bring your full self without worrying that some idiot on the internet is going to land in your inbox making you feel bad or whatever although I'm really happy that person called them out for it because yeah that's um just some serious like who who does that in terms of like I think there is a bit of um what's the word a learning curve maybe towards moving from being someone who's never engaged in an online community to being somebody who who starts yeah I think that like a lot of people might lurk um they might see what's going on and and and kind of like scout out the conversations that are happening but maybe have a bit of nervousness to actually be the one that says I need this or I'm lonely today or whatever it might be do you have any kind of tips or advice of how are some of the best ways to kind of get over that insecurity or whatever it is that reluctance to to lean into an online community are there any kind of things that you found particularly valuable in your own journey of interacting with people online?

23:23Kate Westlund Tovsen:That's such a great question. And I wish I had more inside like perspective on that, because I've always been someone who's shared very openly online. I think the thing to remember when you're, if you're hesitant to engage in an online community is it is, it's there, you know everyone is there in in a community that's paid especially everyone is choosing to show up and agree to the group norms like a facebook or a reddit might be different you can post anonymously in those so there is that and there is anonymous like capability inside of slack but i've only enabled it on two channels because i i think that it really changes yeah when people can just post like willy nilly with their their name and face applied to it.

24:15Kate Westlund Tovsen:And the whole thing is for it to be a shame free. You know, there is a shame free channel. So that's one of the questions that is the anonymous like post is enabled. But a lot of I'm when I rolled that out, I was like, just know that I would like this to be used. So, so, so sparingly, like, because we're all here because we want to support each other. Like we're here because we need support. We're here because we're willing to give support. Yeah. So I get the hesitation. Having this kind of high, like, you know, bird's eye view of the community. If someone comes to me and they're like, I've got this question.

24:50Kate Westlund Tovsen:I'm like, oh, I know 10 people who would be able to, like, help you with that particular kind of drum. And so it's hard when you see someone kind of stick on the sidelines because they're afraid of looking needy or looking like a fool or or whatever yeah yeah um yeah so yeah as far as like advice for how to get over that I just it's not good advice because I'm just like just get over it no but I think I think what I'm hearing is that it needs it takes a little bit of courage like it does take a little bit of just getting over that fear that ick factor of you know worrying about what people will think of you ultimately is what it boils down to isn't it and putting too much of yourself out there or putting stuff about yourself out there opens the door to for judgment or whatever but I think like especially in a community a closed community you know that it it like having a shame-free environment is basically the the foundation of it So I'm also like a chronic oversharer.

25:53So I've really like just I think it's such a freeing thing to just put obviously within the realms of what you're comfortable with. But just to sort of like call out the elephant in the room, for example, the person who wet themselves when they were running. Like, I just think there's so much power in just being like, yeah, yeah, I just wet myself. You know what you what you give. That's such a gift that you give to people when you do that. And so, but I also understand that there are like plenty of people who would prefer to be a bit more kind of discreet. But still, I think there is so much power in kind of getting over that ick factor.

26:28Because what you can get from it is potentially, potentially life changing, right? Potentially you could find the keys that unlock a new chapter for you in terms of new opportunities or new friendships or new perspectives. And that's not nothing. If there is someone who's listening to this and they're sat there feeling lonely or isolated, what's kind of the one piece of advice you would give them to start chipping away at finding their space, wherever that might be?

27:01Kate Westlund Tovsen:I think just getting comfortable with using their voice. Because you don't need to be part of society working moms or a community that has bounds. There's community everywhere. community as in your your text message to your family members or your weekly dinner with your neighbors or or whatever it can be found anywhere but i think it's just what it boils down to is being able to use your voice to be vulnerable and share what you need and like you said it's a gift to share that vulnerability because it opens up others to do the same to you um so just being able to get comfortable with voicing what you need I think is yeah yeah is a huge thing overshare to overshare like it's easier said than done I know but um I think a lot of what I've also learned uh through the process of having these conversations is that there are a lot of women who feel like they don't deserve to say what they need not even consciously it's just like a conditioned thing they're just conditioned to to sort of put their needs like bottom of the list and so saying like I need whatever it might be an hour to go for a run or um I need to chase that promotion because I really believe that I've got that in me right now whatever it might be that you actually get to say that out loud without shame like that doesn't need to be something that's um you apologize for as it's just whether it can happen or not is a different thing but stating your needs should just be a non-negotiable in life and then then you work with the people around you to figure out how possible they are but I think so many women silence they don't even get to the point of saying how they would love to show up in the world because they feel other people's needs are more important and so I think they're you're right like it's vulnerability it's courage it's like gumption just like give the world whatever it is that you need and then see if it can happen.

29:03So yeah, no, I think you're right. I think that's really simple but important.

29:07Kate Westlund Tovsen:Yeah, you, okay, I am going to do a quick plug now because what you, so many of the things that you just talked about are things that come up in our weekly group coaching conversations, self-advocacy and like making time for yourself and all of these things that we don't do as moms and as working moms when so many other people are relying on us. So I would say if you can afford to pay a coach, either in a group setting or one-on-one, working with a good coach, which is different from, I mean, therapy is awesome too. If you can do therapy and coaching, then great. But a coach really helps you look forward and figure out how to get where you want to be.