In short
Working mothers’ burnout—why “always on” post-COVID work plus default caregiving creates chronic stress, how to recognize burnout signs, and what workplaces should change to prevent it.
Guest
Alison Campbell, founder of Unburnt (Massachusetts, near Boston). Burnout strategist helping working mothers and organizations build sustainable rhythms for life/work. She has two kids (daughter 12, son 9) and previously worked as chief of staff at a global company, traveling and being reachable late.
Key claims
Motherhood and hybrid work didn’t “recover” after COVID; workplaces added more demands without changing design. Brains aren’t wired for constant stimulation, and chronic stress blurs threats (e.g., vague emails, sick kids). Burnout shows up as exhaustion even after rest, cynicism/resentment, and reduced self-efficacy (foggy thinking, mistakes). Normalizing “not feeling okay” is harmful.
Notable examples
Her 18-month decline (foggy memory, stomach aches) ended in emergency surgery; she later founded Unburnt after realizing she wasn’t alone. Workplace fixes include meeting hygiene, asynchronous norms, tradeoff frameworks, psychological safety, and “capacity” conversations.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Pressure of Motherhood
0:00 to 1:54
Explore the societal pressures surrounding motherhood and the normalization of burnout.
“So much of the language around motherhood is like, you know, mum is powered by caffeine and wine type thing.”
Understanding Burnout Among Mothers
2:51 to 4:48
Alison discusses why working mothers face heightened risks of burnout, especially post-pandemic.
“Thank you so, so much for joining me today.”
Signs and Symptoms of Burnout
4:48 to 7:18
Learn about the signs of burnout that mothers might overlook and how it manifests in daily life.
“What's contributing to this, as you called it before, state of chronic stress and overwhelm within working mothers?”
Personal Experience with Burnout
7:18 to 11:15
Alison shares her own journey through burnout and the challenges she faced balancing work and motherhood.
“These are all little stressors that our body can't differentiate between a real threat, right?”
The Impact of Ignoring Burnout
11:15 to 14:00
Discuss the repercussions of ignoring burnout and the necessity of acknowledging personal limits.
“I think as women become mothers, we're also growing in our careers.”
The Reality of Forced Breaks
14:00 to 16:44
Explore the necessity of taking breaks as a response to burnout and stress.
“Like you will be forced to take the break that you need to take.”
Identity and Recovery After Burnout
16:44 to 19:12
Discuss the emotional journey of identity change following career burnout.
“And I really had to grapple with, wait, what's my identity?”
Cultural Shift in Motherhood and Work
19:12 to 21:43
Understand the societal changes in motherhood and their impact on working mothers.
“I feel like working mums or women just generally, actually just families generally are, you know, the analogy of the frog that was boiled alive.”
The Toxic Binary of Career Choices
21:43 to 24:12
Analyze the harmful binary choices faced by working mothers regarding career and family.
“of workday design hasn't really shifted a whole lot over the last, call it, hundred years and is not reflective of sort of the society we live in now, the technology we have.”
Advocating for Change in Workplaces
24:12 to 26:58
Examine Unburnt's efforts to improve workplace well-being and mental health.
“Why would you want less of someone if you can have all of them?”
Show all 21 chapters
The Cost of Burnout on Business
26:58 to 29:50
Learn about the business implications of burnout and the importance of well-being.
“And ironically, when people feel like they can't break or have any space to breathe, going and doing yoga in the company gym is the last thing they have time for.”
Practical Solutions to Manage Stress
29:50 to 31:50
Learn practical strategies to combat burnout and enhance well-being.
“So what practical levers do we have to play with within the workplace to try and prevent burnout from being a common thing?”
The Stressor Scan Exercise
31:50 to 34:30
Discover a simple exercise to identify and manage stressors effectively.
“So there's an awareness piece, the cognition around I need to sort of be able to take stock, like how am I feeling in my body, to have space during the day for micro resets.”
External Stressors and Societal Pressure
34:30 to 37:10
Understand how external factors contribute to chronic stress and burnout.
“and easy way to allow folks to regain some agency and kind of figure out like what's going on rather than keeping it all bottled up in your head.”
Creating a Supportive Workplace Culture
37:10 to 42:01
Explore strategies for fostering connection and psychological safety at work.
“It's no surprise to me that that's influencing, you know, a much more stressed out society generally.”
Understanding Burnout and Team Dynamics
42:01 to 43:34
Explore how conversations around workload can alleviate burnout.
“So it's giving language and permission to teams, including their leaders, to have a different kind of conversation, right?”
Personal Routines for Well-being
43:34 to 45:06
Learn about personal routines that help maintain balance and wellbeing.
“So if you could kind of swear by one routine or one boundary that for you is absolutely non-negotiable to help you stay balanced, what would that be?”
The Importance of Self-Reflection
45:06 to 46:30
Discuss the significance of continuous self-reflection for personal needs.
“And then all the other pieces, even if it feels counterintuitive, that's the boundary is where am I carving out that time, even if it's in little micro doses?”
Steps to Address Burnout
46:30 to 49:16
Identify immediate steps to take when feeling close to burnout.
“Because once you spot it, you can really lean into it to your own benefit.”
Normalizing Conversations About Burnout
49:16 to 50:14
Highlight the need to normalize discussions around burnout and mental health.
“That's not how you should measure your success, as being somebody who give, give, gives all the time.”
Connecting with Alison Campbell
50:14 to 50:56
Find out how to connect with Alison Campbell and her work.
“So where can people find out more about Unburned and you online?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00So much of the language around motherhood is like, you know, mum is powered by caffeine and wine type thing. It's like, no, like that's not that. If so, then we need to just like stop the ship right now and take a look at why that might be. Because we should just it's not funny and it's not something that we should be celebrating.
0:18Alison Campbell:It has shifted in such a short period of time in terms of motherhood and how we raise children. and at the same time, our workplace and sort of workday design hasn't really shifted a whole lot over the last, call it, hundred years and is not reflective of sort of the society we live in now, the technology we have. We've just backfilled with more, right? So we think, oh, you should be able to fire off more emails, multitask and answer Slack while in a meeting, be able to just quickly reply, no big deal it's nine o 'clock but that's okay it's a quick text but the reality is like our brains are not wired for that for that always on stimulation and are we you know pushing everything at the same time to make sure that it's not just one sector of society that is disproportionately bearing the load where and the rest isn't catching up and i think what you're saying is exactly that you know you're internalizing not being able to do all the things for all the people is shame and as a personal failure when it's the opposite of that it's being let down um and it just makes me sad and angry but also grateful that there are then people like you now who are saying wait a minute we we shouldn't just be expecting or hoping that we don't get burnt out we should be creating systems to make sure that we're not going to be burnt out
1:53So today I'm talking to Alison Campbell, who's a burnout strategist and founder of Unburnt, which is a platform helping working mothers and organisations create better rhythms for life and work before burnout hits. If you've ever been feeling like you can't quite focus, like you're snapping at your kids, you're dropping balls, or just wondering why everything feels a bit heavier than it should, it might not just be because you're tired. It could be signs of burnout. Alison shares why working mums are especially at risk of burning out and what we can actually do to stay unburnt. This is a conversation about naming the load instead of carrying it alone.
2:30It's about practical shifts that can make a real difference and permission to stop pushing through when all you need is space, support and a break. If you've ever wondered what the heck is going on with you, this episode is here to tell you that no, it's not just you. No, you're not failing. and know you're not alone in the way that you feel. So should we dive into it? Let's do it.
2:58Hi, Alison. Thank you so, so much for joining me today. How are you doing?
3:03Alison Campbell:I'm good. Thank you so much for inviting me to join. I've just been loving this podcast and I'm so excited to dig in today. And thank you for, I think like a lot of what we'll, I mean, the theme of today's podcast is just so relevant to basically every aspect of my life, but I've had to move this so many times just because of children's illnesses, children's holidays, other things that are clashing. So thank you for your patience and flexibility as well. Absolutely. So for anybody who doesn't know you and what you do, can you just give us an introduction to who you are and what work you do within the space of burnout?
3:41Yes.
3:42Alison Campbell:So my name is Allison Campbell. I am the founder of a company called Unburnt. So I live in Massachusetts. We were just chatting before we started recording just outside of Boston. And my company is focused on helping people reduce chronic stress in the context of everyday life because we're all extremely busy. And I help companies try to infuse those practices into the workday, build it into the fabric of the culture, and really focus on well-being as a strategic imperative for companies. I have two kids. I have a daughter who just turned nine and a son who is, I'm sorry, I totally flubbed there.
4:20Alison Campbell:My daughter just turned 12. It's early here in the States. My daughter just turned 12 and my son just turned nine and busy full life. Yeah, absolutely. I think, I don't know, just almost everyone I speak to at the moment is kind of throwing around the word burnout or all the women that I'm speaking to are throwing the word burnout around as being like a very real probability for the way that they feel right now. I think before we dive into the specific work that you do within Unburn and practical strategies, why are we all so burnt out right now? What's contributing to this, as you called it before, state of chronic stress and overwhelm within working mothers?
5:04Alison Campbell:There's so many factors, I think, that start to stack here. But I think if we look at burnout is certainly not a new phenomenon. But if we look at the past five years and we think about the collective trauma that we just all came off of with COVID-19, the pandemic, and the amount of pressure and stress, fear, anxiety, just going through a global pandemic. And for mothers trying to raise kids at any age, whether you were homeschooling little kids, whether you were fearful of teenagers all of a sudden being disconnected from their friends, plus also what was happening academically and trying to keep a profession going through a pandemic.
5:46Alison Campbell:Like there were so many layers of stress and pressure and again, fear and anxiety. Yeah. And then when you think about the resilience of humanity and how we all powered through, you know, we were able to get to a vaccine quite quickly, open the world back up. We all were racing so quickly to get back to normal, which, you know, the world has changed forever. Right. So as we think about trying to mother and work in this post-COVID world and this workplace that is hybrid, virtual, always on, global, we don't have a moment to breathe. Like the chaos of everyday life when you're working is always on.
6:31Alison Campbell:And then when you stack on motherhood and the pressures and demands and the obligations of being primarily the default caregiver, right? That's still how society treats parents, even with the best partners, right? It is a lot of pressure and there is just not that moment to breathe. And so there's additional, that's kind of like the macro overlay if we think about the past five years, not really recovering from the stress of the pandemic. But our calendars are packed. The demands are real and always on. And we're just juggling so many things. And so when you think about stress and then how it becomes chronic, it is whether it's your child waking up in the middle of the night with an earache, whether it's an email that is vague from a boss and you're worried like, oh, this is what's the next shoe to drop here.
7:19Alison Campbell:These are all little stressors that our body can't differentiate between a real threat, right? Like a car, maybe we have to swerve out of the way really quickly or that email where it's like, oh, no, what's going to happen? What am I what's going to come on the other side? And so when we're not able to break that cycle of stress and those stressors are constant, we start to edge into that feeling of burnout. And we can talk about what that definition is. But it's frankly, it's just that feeling of I'm always on, I'm always responsible to someone. And I just don't have a moment to reset. Yeah. And so what does that look like practically?
7:56What are some of the ways that that experience of burnout shows up in people that they might not recognize as being signs of burnout and maybe kind of dismiss as just, oh, I'm tired or I'm stressed? Yeah. What should we be looking out for?
8:10Alison Campbell:Yeah, it's a great question. And I think because the word burnout has come into our vernacular more, it's almost easier now to just bat it away and say, oh, no, you know, that's just a really buzzy word and ignore some of the classic signs and symptoms. So the first one is pretty easy to recognize as part of the burnout definition. It's that feeling of total exhaustion and depletion. And it's feeling like when you wake up from a great night's sleep or a great weekend of rest, you're still feeling totally exhausted. And so and that can be caused by a number of factors. So that in isolation, you know, over a short period of time, you had a really busy project and deadline.
8:54Alison Campbell:Right. You have a newborn. Of course, you're going to feel exhausted and, you know, going through sleepless nights. But if it's just sort of everyday living, nothing else chronically, you know, no other chronic illness is going on. there's no other underlying driver, that might be a first warning sign to not normalize, to not say, this is just what being a busy working mom looks like. If you're constantly feeling that feeling of complete fatigue and depletion, you might be edging into burnout and you need some space. Two of the other sides, according to the research, cynicism. So you're starting to feel really negative going through life, going through your every day.
9:31Alison Campbell:You know, is this meeting a total waste of my time, right? Even as a mother who loves their children, you know, starting to feel a little bit of resentment, like, oh, I don't have a second to breathe. And so when you start to feel that negativity edging in, again, might be a sign that it's just become too much and you just need a little break. And then the third one is questioning your own ability, right? So it's called, it's the self-efficacy of, am I even good at my job, right? Starting to question, what am I even doing? And that's really tough because when we're feeling so burnt out, you know, cognitively, we're not in that rational thinking space, right?
10:10Alison Campbell:So we make one little mistake and all of a sudden we're not good at anything. And so it starts to feel even more overwhelming and we get stuck in that state of stress and sort of beating ourselves up, which we know, unfortunately, mothers are so, that just happens so frequently, right? And so those are kind of the classic signs. And then it can show up in so many different ways, right? Every single person's experience is different, but it can manifest in headaches, foggy thinking, stomach aches. So that was true for me. I had stomach aches for months and months, and I just normalized it as, oh, I'm really stressed out.
10:44Alison Campbell:I have a big meeting. I'll take a break after the next project is due. And I never did. And so it's really important that we listen to our bodies. And if we feel like something's off, check it out. You know, it could be something else going on and you sort of want to be able to root that out. But we also, we don't want to just normalize not feeling okay. It could be a sign of burnout. It sounds like you have experienced burnout yourself then. Is that right? Yes. Yes. So what did that look like for you? Yeah, it was really difficult. I think, you know, for me, I probably had a couple of burnout experiences over my professional career once I became a mother and continued to put really unsustainable pressures on myself, continued to think I can work just as hard, if not harder, as I did before I had children.
11:41Alison Campbell:I think as women become mothers, we're also growing in our careers. So we have responsibilities at work, right? And we don't want to drop any of the balls. But I would say for me, the burnout experience that really changed everything was probably a period of 18 months of not feeling well. I was in a role that I loved by the way I was so bought in on the mission of the company I love the work I was doing I love my team I felt like we were really making strides and you know helping other companies build great cultures and I put a ton of pressure on myself to perform during the day come put a smile on my face go into mom mode you know start that second full-time job not going to drop any of the balls.
12:29Alison Campbell:And I was the chief of staff, so I was traveling globally. I was always on, sort of normalized, getting phone calls at 9 p.m., responding to text messages immediately. And again, it's that always on mentality, that pressure, that it's like that Amazon next day delivery instant expectation, right, that we now sort of live our lives around. And I, again, had just normalized, well, this is what it is. This is what being a busy working mom looks like. I have always had an incredible memory. Like you can ask my husband. I can pull things out from years and years ago, these very specific little anecdotes.
13:06Alison Campbell:And all of a sudden I was so foggy. Like I couldn't really remember things. You know, I was like going through the world in a haze is what it felt like. Yeah, yeah. And so I had stomach aches, as I mentioned, and I just kept sort of normalizing it until I ended up in the emergency room and I had to have surgery. Wow. And so for me, that was a very severe experience of not only accepting extreme exhaustion, foggy thinking, like not feeling well in my own body, but I also felt like it was such a failure. I was so disappointed in myself that I had ignored warning signs of just my overall well-being and health.
13:43Alison Campbell:Yeah. quite an extreme experience, but was certainly a wake-up call. I can just empathize with so much of that. And what I seem to hear quite frequently is that when you ignore the signs of burnout for long enough, at some point you just don't have a choice anymore. Like you will be forced to take the break that you need to take. That was certainly my experience. And I hear from folks every single day that that that continues to ring true. You know, stories about needing to take a medical leave of absence, you know, or who had to just quit. Like they felt like they had a choice until they didn't, right?
14:23Alison Campbell:And so you're absolutely right. It feels like it's so counterintuitive because when we're busy, we want to push through. We think we can't possibly stop. And then sometimes our bodies just sort of choose for us. Yeah. So is that experience what led to you founding Unburnt or what was the process of that. Yes. So, you know, I was unwell, not feeling well, went to the emergency room, was told I had to have surgery. And initially, I just thought, all right, well, I'll have surgery and then get back to work. And, you know, but it was a period of... It's amazing, even in that time, how you were still...
14:57Alison Campbell:In that time. Yeah. Well, I thought, I'll make some changes. I'll change my nutrition. You know, I was doing some research. But it never occurred to me initially, right? We're still in that mode of trying to grip on so tight. And I've got this. I can control the outcome. It'll be fine. But going through that experience, you know, it was a few weeks leading up to surgery. Started to do some research. Started to look into stress, chronic stress, drivers of stomach aches for me. The microbiome was really digging into nutrition, trying to understand, all right, so when I go back, how do I not get back to this place?
15:33Alison Campbell:And initially, I put so much pressure, again, on myself to want to fix it and control it and, you know, didn't really start to internalize the macro drivers of like, wait a minute. Societally, the expectations that have been put on me are unsustainable for one human being to go 24-7 in perpetuity. It's just not sustainable. And so, you know, but I slowly, as I started digging into the research and thinking about what does next look like post-surgery, started to realize, like, wait, this can't all be on me. And by the way, I can't control every outcome. And I have to make some changes. So I had surgery.
16:12Alison Campbell:I decided to take a step back, pause, which, by the way, was a grieving process. And it's just really important to recognize and say out loud that it's not as simple as I'm prioritizing my health. I don't care about the career I've built overnight. Now I'm going from executive at a billion dollar plus company to not working and I'm okay with that. It was really tough. It was a range of emotions on my last day of work. You know, tears, crying, saying goodbye to colleagues. And I really had to grapple with, wait, what's my identity? Who am I now? Yeah. And just really sit with that. And so I took, I was in such a privileged position to be able to say, I'm going to take a couple of months and just really process and unpack this experience I've been in, recover from surgery, put the pieces back together, be a human, be a mom.
17:05Alison Campbell:I walked my kids to school every day instead of putting them on the bus and then racing off to get to the office. And just really sat with a lot of it. The grief of leaving, the identity shift, and a little bit of identity loss. Again, recovery, changing my nutrition. I've always been a runner. I'm actually training for a half marathon right now. When I, of course, when I was recovering from surgery, I couldn't even walk a mile. So I just set little milestones for myself. You know, okay, I'm going to walk two miles. All right, I'm going to jog. Let's see if I can jog a quarter of a mile. And so I just, I had these little mini goals for my well-being, for my recovery.
17:44Alison Campbell:And slowly I started to feel whole again, you know, and again, such a privileged position that I was able to take that time and space. But because I had been already digging into the research around burnout and then sharing my story about my own personal experience, people wondering, oh, my God, you left your role? You know, because I think there's this perception. You're this executive. You've got this big role. Outside looking in, it looked like I had it all figured out. It looked like I was the success story. And so once I started sharing, like, well, actually, I wasn't present. I wasn't feeling well for months and months and I just had surgery.
18:19Alison Campbell:other people started feeling safe enough to share their stories with me. And so it was slowly over that research, my recovery period, and in sharing and connecting with people that I had this moment of, wait a minute, I felt so alone and suffering in silence. Like I had this feeling like it was a personal failure. And yet so many other people are feeling this way, particularly women and working moms. There's something here. Like we're all waving it away, normalizing it. But I'm actually not okay with just accepting this as normal. Like, I don't want to figure out how to go back to a corporate role and hopefully, fingers crossed, not get back to that place.
18:58Alison Campbell:Like, there's something here that requires a deeper look in how we're working and how as a society we're expecting folks to show up. Yeah. I mean, like, it's, that's just exactly it, isn't it? I feel like working mums or women just generally, actually just families generally are, you know, the analogy of the frog that was boiled alive. Like you don't know you're being boiled alive because the water is just getting warmer, but you're already in it and you forgot what the cool water feels like. That's our reality until it's too late. We have normalized a reality that is just so against our natural needs and urges.
19:40I am reading a book at the moment that talks about how the experience of mothering has moved from being something that was totally shared and totally communal, not even that long ago, like 150 years ago, to now, where we're so isolated. We birth children and then depending on where you are in the world, within a matter of days or weeks, your partner can be gone back to work and you are on your own in your house looking after a child by yourself very quickly expected to get back into work as well as if the whole mothering experience is something you can put into a box of a short you know a couple of weeks or months and then park it and then move back into normal life and it's no wonder that we are crushed by that it's just not how we're designed to live our lives because these things happen incrementally we don't necessarily we're not responsible for big changes we haven't gone from being a generation of stay-at-home moms to being working parents overnight it happens over many generations and so we never really pause to say hey what's happening here like we are gaining freedoms in some aspects but at what cost are we are we you know pushing everything at the same time to make sure that it's not just one sector of society that is disproportionately bearing the load where and the rest isn't catching up and I think what you're saying is exactly that you know you're internalizing not being able to do all the things all the people is shame and as a personal failure when it's the opposite of that it's being let down and it just makes me sad and angry but also grateful that there are then people like you now who are saying, wait a minute, we shouldn't just be expecting or hoping that we don't get burnt out.
21:29We should be creating systems to make sure that we're not going to be burnt out.
21:34Alison Campbell:Absolutely. I just love everything you just said and the reflections you have on how much has shifted in such a short period of time in terms of motherhood and how we raise children and at the same time how our workplace and sort of workday design hasn't really shifted a whole lot over the last, call it, hundred years and is not reflective of sort of the society we live in now, the technology we have. We've just continued to say, we have these technological advances. It's going to make it easier. But actually, we've just backfilled with more, right? So we think, oh, you should be able to fire off more in emails, multitask and answer Slack while in a meeting and be able to just quickly reply, no big deal.
22:23Alison Campbell:It's nine o 'clock, but that's okay. It's a quick text. Let me just clear that off my plate. But the reality is like our brains are not wired for that, for that always on stimulation. And frankly, even just the expectation to be always on is a perceived threat and then therefore keeps us in a state of stress and therefore chronic stress. And so, you know, the whole system, this is sounding a little cliche, but it's sort of broken. Like we have to really think about how we're re-architecting ways for people to work with rest, with recovery periods, but frankly, just have different ways of working available because it is so difficult for mothers who want to stay engaged in their career, make that work.
23:09Alison Campbell:Like everybody sort of has to take it on for themselves and figure out, all right, can I negotiate a part-time role? Or it feels at times very binary. All right, I'm going to grip on, I'm going to hire help, and I'm going to be all in on my career at the expense maybe of my sanity. It's not presence and time with my children. Or the opposite end of the spectrum, I'm going to quit and I'm going to leave. And that's not a commentary or judgment on any choice. It's really more commentary on why are those the only two choices. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so just thinking through, you know, how do we make more choice available for moms, but also sort of change the way work is happening such that it doesn't feel like we have to always be on.
23:54Yeah, yeah. I mean, that whole binary choice or non-choice really is so toxic, isn't it? Because again, it's like the burden is on you as the person who's struggling to give something up. And you don't want to give either of those things up. You don't want to. Well, like you say, some women are very clear on the thing they want to lean fully into. And that's great. I think there's a vast majority of women who want to be able to make themselves feel fulfilled professionally while also showing up at home to an extent that is more than just you know breakfasts and bedtimes and it shouldn't be that that feels like a binary choice because there are so many levers to pull within the work environment or within even school systems or you know the whole the whole societal build that we have there's so many levers to play with to make the experience of parenting kind of more realistic and sort of on that I would just love to hear more about the the work that you do with Unburn and specifically like what kind of what kind of things do you advocate for within the workplace and also I'm very curious to hear how receptive are businesses to the things that you have to say because it sounds like something that is a hard sell?
25:12Why would you want less of someone if you can have all of them? Obviously, I don't believe in that. But, you know, if you're thinking as somebody who runs businesses that make a lot of money, there's less incentive to take well-being seriously. So, yeah, I'm just curious to hear more about Unburnt.
25:28Alison Campbell:Yeah. Well, so let me start with the second piece first, because I think it's a really, you know, it's an interesting conversation to have. And then we'll talk about some of the practices and some of the ways in which Unburnt manifests inside of workplaces and for people. So the first piece, you know, I think there's a whole, there's a dichotomy. There's a lot of companies who are very receptive, who get it, who are invested in well-being at work, well-being for their people. Mental health has become a big, big, big topic, really supporting folks holistically that I think, again, not a new topic, but really became much more prominent in terms of focus through the pandemic and now in this post-COVID era.
26:11Alison Campbell:And so, yes, lots of companies who are very receptive. But to your point, I think there's another, I don't want to say half, like it's 50-50, but there's another set of companies who, in my experience so far in doing this work, certainly if you ask them, do you care about well-being, the answer would be yes, but they're not prioritizing it as a strategic initiative. Perhaps they have some perks, right? So they say, well, you know, we have a wellness app and we have a gym at work and that's why we have return to office so people can come and utilize this great space that we've built, right? And so it's a little bit more of a check the box.
Read the full transcript
26:49Alison Campbell:Like, well, we have stuff and people can take their time off and we're not really looking at the root causes of why there is stress and burnout in the first place. And ironically, when people feel like they can't break or have any space to breathe, going and doing yoga in the company gym is the last thing they have time for. And so, absolutely. So there's sort of two, two, two, sorry, let me just, two different perceptions and probably a whole host of stuff in the middle. I think when we are, of course, companies are going to say, well, why would I want less? Or why should I prioritize, you know, periods of rest?
27:26Alison Campbell:And I'm very overgeneralizing that. You know, the research shows when we are chronically stressed out, unwell, out of any capacity, we're not doing our best work. And so saying that out loud to you right now seems so straightforward. It seems so basic. We should all understand that. But fundamentally, to your point, again, it's like the frog. We're all in it and we all don't really feel the temperature that has risen to a level that is just so unsustainable. Yeah. But the reality is we are not doing our best work. The research shows creativity suffers, innovation suffers, right? So in a world now where it's AI everything and the thing that's going to really separate top performers and top companies is the ability to actually create something that stands out from the pack.
28:15Alison Campbell:We can't do that. We can't think in that way. We're sort of an autopilot. And you can sort of think about it when you're at the end of a really, really busy week and, you know, there's just so much going on. You're kind of just doing the easiest tasks. You're just trying to check things off the list and get through, survive the week versus really having the space to innovate. And so if you think about it from a business perspective, we want our people to be well and we should want people to be well because it's the right thing to do. But it's also having real impact, not only on cost. We know there's a ton of research and statistics around the cost of burnout, but actually from a top-line perspective, it's going to impact your ability to be competitive and drive top-line revenue, period.
29:00Alison Campbell:Yeah. So I'm actually just now starting a study with a university to look at that specifically. So to look at the drivers of burnout, how that connects to innovation, creativity, resilience, and then potentially the impact that that's having on other downstream things within companies and what are the modifiable behaviors that can be impacted to prevent those losses from happening. And so like that's the business case, right? If you continue to wear people down to a point where they're not doing their best work, it's going to have an impact on business. So let me just pause there. That's kind of like the macro before that we talk about some of the practical solutions.
29:36Yeah, I mean, you're so right. And I think alongside the cost to your business of not being able to have a creative workforce and not having an innovative mindset or culture, there's also a huge cost to churn as well. Yes, you can employ another person if the one you have in role right now leaves, but that costs and you lose so much knowledge with every person that walks out the door. And so on top of the innate and inherent kind of like creativity flatlining and innovation flatlining, you also just have this seepage of innovation and creativity that literally walks out the door and that never walks back in.
30:14That's the reality of it. So what practical levers do we have to play with within the workplace to try and prevent burnout from being a common thing?
30:25Alison Campbell:Yeah. So my philosophy and the way I've sort of built everything for Unburnt is around both the person, so the individual human, and then workplace culture, norms, the rhythms of the business, right? Because both have to be well for all of this to work. And so practically for the person, when we're thinking about ways to manage stress in the context of a very busy life, a full calendar, the practices have to be realistic and they have to be time bound. And so the first piece is coming into organizations, whether it's a one-hour workshop or it's a longer training engagement, to teach folks about what's happening when we are in a state of chronic stress.
31:14Alison Campbell:Of course, there's some educational background on why that's bad. We sort of know peripherally fight or flight is bad. We're stuck at it. And by the way, stress is not only a part of life, but acute little stressors, they're okay. We're made for that. Like our bodies are designed to be able to rise to the challenge. It's just the danger is when we're stuck in that state, right? It has real implications, you know, physiologically on our bodies. And so I teach people practical micro habits that can be incorporated in the context of the day to build awareness, to not normalize. I've been walking around feeling foggy.
31:52Alison Campbell:That's just what this is, right? So there's an awareness piece, the cognition around I need to sort of be able to take stock, like how am I feeling in my body, to have space during the day for micro resets. And I really try to help folks understand that, again, it feels counterintuitive when you have, you just want to jam in one or two more things. The need for these micro breaks, screen fatigue is a very real thing and it adds to our overwhelm. So there are a whole host of micro habits that I come in and train folks on and they're designed to fit in the context of a workday, you know, and again, in a very busy life.
32:29Alison Campbell:So for example, some practical, tangible thing that folks walk away with is this notion of it's called a stressor scan. And so it's something you can do mentally, but I also have a program where folks can go through in 10 minutes or less, really just taking a moment to say, okay, I'm aware of stress and how that's feeling in my body. What's stressing me out? So often, working moms particularly, we keep that mental checklist running in our heads, right? It's just constantly going. And the ability to sit down 10 minutes and write down one to two things that's really stressing us out and then go through the exercise of why.
33:08Alison Campbell:Why am I feeling really nervous or worried or stressed? And then you continue going through this exercise where you say, okay, what am I going to do? What's the next action I can take? And then what am I going to let go of? And so those are a few of the prompts. There are a couple of more. But essentially what you're doing is you're moving out of this emotional dysregulation of feeling like, oh my God, there's 10 ,000 things I need to do. you're getting your space back into rational thinking, really trying to understand the root cause. Like maybe you're just really worried because it's a big meeting and your daughter's sick.
33:44Alison Campbell:That's very real. But being able to name it, sit down, and then build a plan around it, it's different than what's on my to-do list today. Because so often the to-do list, you start with three and then you add 10 more. This is, what is the biggest thing I'm stressed out about? And am I going to take an action or is it something in the news, right? Acknowledging that it's real. And there's so much in our world right now that feels scary and big and totally out of our control, which is very stressful. And it's okay to say, you know, right now, I'm just going to have to let that go. It doesn't mean that you don't get involved and try to make change where you can, or that you just don't care or you stop reading the news.
34:25Alison Campbell:But it does mean sometimes that you have to be able to let something go. And so this exercise is just a really quick and easy way to allow folks to regain some agency and kind of figure out like what's going on rather than keeping it all bottled up in your head. I love that because I think one of the things that when you're in a state of continuous stress, it's hard to access that rational part of your brain to remind yourself that you actually do have some choices. Some things are out of your control. Like if you have to give a presentation and your child is sick, that's a tricky situation. But sometimes, and often it feels like you have no avenues available to you in that moment.
35:06I've certainly been there where I've suddenly found myself with my child and I'm just about to log into a virtual presentation to lots of people. And I've tried to push through and it obviously doesn't go great when you're being literally distracted, you know, in real time and have been reminded by colleagues or my boss after the fact that, you know, telling everybody you needed to reschedule was actually an option. Like you, you felt like you would have, you would have felt guilty about that unnecessarily because everybody would have understood. But because you're in that hyper fight or flight state of mind, you don't access that rational set of choices, but just by writing it down such a simple thing you can start to be a bit more objective about it and be like that is one of the options on the table or is it if not then okay swipe it out you've discounted it but at least you've considered it um so i think it's really powerful and and also on the external stresses thing i i think it's really important just to take a moment actually to touch on that because it isn't normal to live with this perceived sense of acute fear and threat all the time from parts of the world that you have absolutely no ability to in the short term at least or in the immediate sort of like here and now influence and yet our bodies are sat with images and video footage and thoughts about our own you know how how moral we are in the way that we we react to things that are happening globally which are yeah big and scary but sometimes you have to meet for your own sense of you know if your own well-being you have to mute that those inputs out it's not normal to live with it all the time yeah and it's it's no surprise to me that on top of all of the social factors this bigger thing of having this real-time fear and guilt transmitted to your phone your TV screen, your whatever, constantly.
37:12It's no surprise to me that that's influencing, you know, a much more stressed out society generally.
37:20Alison Campbell:Yeah, I, you know, I absolutely agree. And it feels like it's another layer of always on. Yeah. The notifications, the news cycle, these horrific things happening that, yeah, we feel like we can't influence in the day to day. But at times it is important for our own self-preservation to, sort of be able to say that is outside of my control today. And then perhaps think about what's one way I can get involved in my local community. You know, connection is such a big piece of what repairs stress. And disconnection and loneliness is another really big driver of burnout and stress happening all over the world.
37:59This idea of connection is certainly something that I'm thinking a lot about lately. Again, that same book that I mentioned before really unpicks the way that mothers have become disconnected over history and how she analyzes some old letters and literature from the 18th, 19th century and talks about how the moment a woman gave birth back then, certainly in more affluent societies anyway, hordes of people would come to that house to take care of both mother and baby it was like that there was an open door policy where people would constantly be dropping in to support with things like even nursing which sounds absolutely bonkers now but I mean it's it makes kind of sense if you think about it like mothers also need rest they need connection they need community babies need all of those things as well now we're shouldering all of the things on our own and so this idea of how you get your community back in today's society is is just really important.
39:03Anyway, point being, I think just being alone is such a terrible thing when you're feeling stressed. And if it's so hard to prioritize not being alone when you don't feel good, and yet it's probably the single best thing you can do.
39:19Alison Campbell:Yeah, absolutely. And I think that sort of connects really well to the other half of the equation for how I'm working with organizations to sort of prevent burnout, you know, talk about well-being as a strategy because there's the personal piece, but you can have all of the best routines and strategies personally. And if you're working in the context of, you know, a company where it's just chaos constantly and it's an urgency, emergency culture, and, you know, the team is not connected and working well, you still have a risk potentially of being really stressed out on a daily basis. And so the other half of the equation is working with teams.
39:56Alison Campbell:You know, and first and foremost, it is about connection. It's about building that trust. And, you know, psychological safety is so important because when we think about even though burnout has become quite bug worthy over the last couple of years, it's in headlines, we're talking about it more. It still feels really scary to name it and talk about it internally. Like to say, I'm overwhelmed. I feel like I'm just holding too much. It feels like the risk is potentially, oh my gosh, I'm going to be judged about my performance or we just went through layoffs. It's not safe to say I'm holding too much because my job might be at risk, right?
40:34Alison Campbell:And so I think the first thing is just being able to create the sense of safety and trust, talking about capacity, talking about tradeoffs, building a culture where people can kind of name what's going on. And are we all driving toward the biggest priorities of the company or are we just adding more for the sake of doing more? Yeah. And so when I work with companies, a big piece of the exercise is sort of auditing and then rewiring some of the cultural norms about how work is getting done. And so basic things, just to give a few tactical little examples, like meeting hygiene and asynchronous communication norms.
41:13Alison Campbell:And, you know, looking at, do you guys have a tradeoff framework? Like if you're getting something dropped from senior leadership and your plates are already full, how do you evaluate whether or not the new thing sort of makes sense? And so often we say, well, the CEO said we have to do it. But how are we evaluating that and making space for it in the context of the resources we have, you know, the goals we're already working against? And so these are some basic things. But by being able to say, you know, we're doing these five things. Here's how that maps to revenue for this year. We can take on the new thing.
41:48We think that this is going to contribute X, but then we're letting go of Y.
41:52Alison Campbell:Again, it's to your point earlier, it's we're afraid to say, is rescheduling the meeting even an option on the list? Yeah. But maybe it ought to be, right? Because if we're maxed with the five things, how do we expect to add the sixth, right? So it's giving language and permission to teams, including their leaders, to have a different kind of conversation, right? We're debating what are we working on and why is part of the culture, and it's not looked at as, you know, someone pushing back and being defensive. And so there's a whole host of tactical things and then programmatically things that folks get trained on, spotting the early warning signs of burnout in their teams.
42:29Alison Campbell:And, you know, it really is about some micro shifts, even in the way work is getting done to help make it more sustainable and make it a culture of connection versus disconnection. Everyone feeling like there's scarcity mindset and I'm only out for myself. Yeah, because that's so easily creeps in, doesn't it? When you're stressed or your whole team feels stretched, they will really retreat from each other because it's kind of like, I don't want you to make my already intense experience more intense or to give me more work to do. And even collaboration generally suffers because if you're just doing, you know, if you're treading water all the time and someone comes to you and is like, hey, I'd love to get your eyes on this.
43:11And what do you think? And they're just like, I, I, why are you even coming to me with this?
43:16Alison Campbell:Yeah. That's, you know, it's the opposite of connection when you have a stretch team and everything suffers. like you said, innovation, creativity, but also just morale and ability to sustain that over time. Absolutely. Yeah, you nailed it. Right. So then I'm quite keen to close off with some practical tidbits of wisdom. So if you could kind of swear by one routine or one boundary that for you is absolutely non-negotiable to help you stay balanced, what would that be? Such a great question. For me, it is, so this is very personal. So for me, it's running. I have to make space for getting a run in a few times a week.
44:01Alison Campbell:I think I know even when I'm super tired or I feel like, honestly, my legs will not carry me around the block today. I know that on the other side of that run, even if it's a pathetic jog, I will feel better, right? I will be re-energized. But honestly, it's more mental than it is even the physical. Yeah. And so that's my non-negotiable. And I have a few others. I think part of the practice is figuring out what do you need to feel well? That can even be a prompt in your morning. Like, what do I need today? And so it is very personal and it is work to kind of define, like, what do I need to feel well and what do I need in the space of a week to make sure there's room for me?
44:41Alison Campbell:Am I on the list? Yeah, that's exactly it. That prioritizing you and your needs and just actually making space for them is so important. The reality is we can't show up and be a great mom, be a good coworker, be a great wife, sister, friend if we're so depleted. So I think for moms, just that reminder, you have to make space for you. And then all the other pieces, even if it feels counterintuitive, that's the boundary is where am I carving out that time, even if it's in little micro doses? Where is that time for me? Yeah. And I guess one of the things that I'm learning by having these conversations is that kind of internal monologue or that internal conversation you have with yourself has to be a continuous thing because what matters to you this week or this month is probably not going to be the same next month.
45:32like running is more of a fundamental kind of joy that it brings for you. If it's something like, I need more screen free time, that might be true now. It might be slightly different as your energy ebbs and flows over time. So depending on what the thing is, like to keep checking in with yourself and seeing if you're doing the thing that is really driving your wellbeing, I guess is such an important part of the process. Like you need to never stop having that conversation with yourself. Absolutely. I mean, you nailed it. And even, you know, for women, we were not robots, right?
46:04Alison Campbell:Even in the context of a month, you know, week to week, our needs are different. And so just really honoring that. Yeah, and I'm really learning a lot about, you know, our cycles affect so much of how we think and feel and our energy levels. And that's all really taboo still. We're really not able to have those kinds of conversations openly yet within the workforce. But I would certainly urge an individual to check in with how their energy ebbs and flows over the month. Because once you spot it, you can really lean into it to your own benefit. I agree. Absolutely. I had someone just recently reschedule a meeting because she told me she'd be in like her luteal phase and that's just not when she's like primed for the kind of conversation we were going to have.
46:48And I was just like, I'm so happy that you have sent me this mail. Like it reminded me that, you know, if it just takes someone who's kind of brave enough to be, to say the thing and then it's like, I don't know, it's inspiring. Yes. Well done to that person. Oh, I love that. Yeah. All right. I think just one of the last things I would love to ask is if someone is listening to this and they're feeling like really in that I am close or potentially in burnout, what's the immediate short term steps that they should take to try and carve a path forward?
47:21Alison Campbell:Yeah. So the experience, as I mentioned earlier, is so different for everybody. So if you're feeling unwell, if you think, yeah, it's been weeks or even a span of a few months where I'm feeling really exhausted, totally depleted, like I can't catch my breath, you're feeling physical symptoms, I would say the first thing, trust your instinct and check in with your doctor. right you want to make sure that you're getting health care advice and you know making sure also that your your doctor doesn't normalize it because so often we're told well of course you have two little kids you're going to be tired yeah really trusting that gut and that instinct and then i would say you know the next piece after checking in with your your doctor is taking a look at everything on your plate again it does not need to be binary it can be as simple as doing an audit You know, sort of taking a look at everything on your plate, figuring out, can I create a boundary?
48:15Alison Campbell:Can I make space for some of the things that will keep me well? How do I have space to even test and figure out what that is for me personally? And if you feel like you are truly max and you cannot do that, it may be having a conversation, you know, with your manager, having a conversation with your partner. Right. And so it's it's about being able to, if you feel safe to do so, you know, in the context of your work environment, starting to normalize like, hey, yeah, this is what's going on. And let's can we have a conversation and really making sure that it's OK to say, I want to explore different ways to potentially be supported or to look at capacity and make space for ensuring that you have time for rest and frankly for you.
48:59Alison Campbell:Yeah, great advice. And I think a big part of all of this is within the idea of normalizing feeling stretched and stressed out is the idea that we have to stop glorifying it as well. There is no glory in being somebody who's maxed out. That's not how you should measure your success, as being somebody who give, give, gives all the time. You never stop. I think there's so much of the language around motherhood is like, mom is powered by caffeine and wine type thing. It's like, no. If so, then we need to just stop the ship right now and take a look at why that might be, because it's not funny and it's not something that we should be celebrating.
49:45So really urge people if they are feeling like they need to take a pause that there is absolutely no shame in that and actually it's the kindest best thing you can do not just for yourself but for everyone around you if your own well-being is something that you tend to down-prioritise it can often help to hear that it benefits those around you too. But thank you so so much for all of this. It's absolutely fascinating to hear about everything that you've been working on. And I'm sure that people listening to this would love to find out more about you and the work that you do. So where can people find out more about Unburned and you online?
50:21Alison Campbell:So I would say the best place, if this resonated and you want to learn more about Unburned, you can visit the website at getunburned.com. And then the place where I hang out the most is on LinkedIn. So you can find me, my name, Alison Campbell, on LinkedIn. And I talk about burnout for sure, but I also talk about other practical solutions, well-being, career advice, and just generally share updates from my life. Amazing. Thank you so much. I'll put all of those links into the show notes as well so they're nice and easy to find. Well, thank you so much, Alison. Thank you so much. And thank you for creating this space.
50:55Alison Campbell:I just I've enjoyed listening to all of the conversations. I'm learning so much and really just appreciate you giving me the opportunity to come join you. Oh, it's just such a pleasure and privilege. Honestly, I still don't really understand how people are trusting me with their stories in the way that, you know, what you've shared about your own experience with burnout. It's just such a privilege to be able to have that conversation with you and to give your story and your work a platform. So the pleasure is all mine.
51:35Thank you.
From the publisher
Hello and welcome back to the penultimate episode of Season 1 of WDIG?
If you’ve been feeling foggy, exhausted, or like everything’s a little heavier than it should be, this episode is for you. Alison Campbell, founder of Unburnt, talks honestly about why working mums are especially at risk of burnout, how the expectations of an “always-on” culture quietly stack the pressure, and why none of this is your personal failure.
Alison shares her own wake-up story and explains why normalising constant overwhelm is exactly what keeps people stuck.
If you want practical, doable tools (not more toxic productivity pep talks), you’ll love the micro-habits Alison walks through in this episode.
This is a conversation about naming the load instead of carrying it alone. Permission to stop pushing through, to ask for help, and to carve out space for yourself. If you’re drowning in the idea that you must do it all, this episode gently reminds you: you’re not failing, you’re being let down by unsustainable expectations. It might not always feel this way, but you DO have choices and there ARE manageable ways to stay unburnt.
Want to go deeper? Alison’s work is at getunburnt.com and she shares practical tips on LinkedIn under Alison Campbell.
Now, take a breath, and let's get into it.
