How to Pace an Ultramarathon Runner with Lisa Jhung

0:02Over the years, we've had some pretty remarkable runners on this show. We've spoken with people who've set records running the Appalachian Trail and the Pacific Crest Trail, and others who've won famous 100-mile races in the Rockies and the Alps. It can be hard to imagine what running hundreds of miles does to the body. We might assume these athletes have some kind of superhuman ability, but these runners rarely describe themselves that way. Often when they're recounting the stories of these wild ideas, they give a lot of credit to their team Sometimes that means there's a person waiting at a checkpoint with a dry pair of socks Or people in a van to meet up with them along the way Oftentimes, it means their pacer is there to help them along In many long trail races, after a certain mileage point, you're allowed to have someone run with you That pacer's job is to keep you moving They help you stay running fast enough to meet your goal, but not so fast that you burn out.

1:01They make sure you're fueling yourself correctly, and they talk you out of quitting when your mind tells you you can't take another step. Over 25 years ago, Lisa Jung started pacing ultra runners. It was the perfect way to feel the energy of those big races without having to put her own body through the extreme toll of running a full 100 miles. Most importantly, it brings her immense joy. Lisa loves helping others go after their wild idea. I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-op Studios production presented by Capital One and the REI Co-op MasterCard.

1:44Lisa Jung, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living. I love that you're in Boulder, Colorado. Thanks for having me here. I love that you're in Solana Beach, my hometown. I'm from your hometown. This is so cool. I want to start with your wild idea because this is a subject we haven't really dove into. You're an ultramarathon pacer. What even is that? So being a pacer is helping someone who's running an ultramarathon achieve their goal. Most 100-mile races allow pacers in the second half of the race. some um allow them at different times like western states you pick up your pacer at mile 62 these runners are running alone until that time where they're allowed to pick up a pacer at least it was that way when i paced years ago i'm not sure if it's changed at all at leadville you can pace somebody it used to be mile 50 now it's also starts at mile 62 so a runner is running by themselves for the majority of the race or at least half the race and then they can pick up a pacer and the pacer is running with them helping them with words of encouragement your runner will tell you if they like want to have you running in front of them or behind them sometimes it changes mid-run mid-race you know at Leadville you mule their stuff so you actually carry their pack which is a big deal but that harkens back to like gold mining days when there were mules so that's why Leadville is like that other races you don't carry their stuff you're just running with them and encouraging them and helping them make their time cutoffs or splits.

3:22And then as far as what pace you're running goes, I was really worried about that before I ran with both Tom, who was significantly older than me, but I didn't know what pace he'd be running. And then really, when I moved to Boulder and paced my friend Darcy, who was like, winning these races, I was like, oh my god, am I going to be able to keep up with her. But when you're starting a run with someone and they're at mile 62 and have been carrying a pack for that long, if you're a competent runner, you most likely are going to be okay. It depends on the race, depends on the terrain, depends on your comfort level and their pace and their goals, but you're helping them for the designated amount of time.

4:03So you're running them like you have, okay, Lisa's taking me from mile 62 to mile 75, whatever. And then I'm handing them off to their next pacer. Or like with my friend Darcy, I picked her up at, I don't know, 74 or something and ran with her to the finish line. So just you have a designated chunk that you're in charge of this runner. And then you're in the aid stations and grabbing them snacks or filling their bottles and telling them to go on or, you know, helping them if they get sick or whatever. You're their safety, you're their encouragement, you're their pacer. But really, like as someone who loves doing this, you're getting to experience a race and hang out with a friend and help them and like run from aid station to aid station and get snacks and get to run in the middle of the night and have a supported event and then not have to run 100 miles and you get a lot of, you get a lot out of it.

4:56It's awesome. Well, you said the word snacks and I got excited, but I'm curious how you even got into this. Like how does someone even become a pacer? Yeah, I come from adventure racing, which is team suffering, essentially, like racing from either a 24 hour race to a seven day expedition, and you're on a team of four people on foot, mountain bike, kayak, rappelling, like doing the craziest things all over the world. So I was doing that. And then I got an assignment to cover the Western States 100 mile race as a journalist. And so I was out there with a photographer and he had a friend who was in the race who was this older guy.

5:41And we got to be buddies just while we were out there covering the race. And then he's like, I need a pacer next year. And he knew I was doing adventure races and whatnot. And he was like, will you pace me next year? And I'm like, sure, Tom. Yeah, no problem. And I just didn't know it would go anywhere. But a couple months before the next year's race, he started reaching out and like offering to buy me a ticket to get out there and all this stuff. And like pretty much just turned into a pacer. And like I flew out there not really knowing him very well and then waited for him at mile 62 and had my headlamp on and a pack and knew what his goals were.

6:13And we just started running through the night and we ran for, I think, let's see, 62 to 94. So we ran, you know, 32 miles together. If I did that math right, hopefully I did. And yeah, I liked it so much I did it again. Lisa never expected that a friend asking for a favor would turn into a whole new side quest. But it made sense. Lisa was already a strong runner, she stayed calm under pressure, and she was used to moving through wild places with other people depending on her. Her background in adventure racing made her especially well-suited to become a pacer. Adventure racing is a sport where athletes navigate through remote wilderness using a mix of disciplines, like running, mountain biking, kayaking, climbing, and more.

7:04I first learned about the sport in the 1990s through a TV show called Eco Challenge, which was an early reality show that was a precursor to Survivor. It followed teams on multi-day expeditions through some of the toughest terrain in the world. How did you get into adventure racing? Was that in college? So after college, I had a job downtown Santa Barbara, like writing copy for a sports catalog and was kind of living that life. And then I moved to San Francisco and was working in advertising and working at a graphic design firm, but doing like journalism on the side. And I saw Eco Challenge on TV and I was like, oh, my God, that looks amazing.

7:48And I was like drawn in by, I think it was in Australia, but this team that the one of the, the teammate of, I think the female of the team broke her ankle or something. And her male teammates carried her for like two days just to keep racing and get to the finish line. And I was so inspired by that. And I was like, oh my God, how awesome. You get to like be outside and do this stuff all day long, like with a team. And I just was moved. And so I came back and asked my editor if I could write about adventure racing. And they're like, yeah, sure. Look into it, whatever. And then I started researching, found that there was an adventure racing camp in Marin County just over the bridge like the following week and called.

8:29And the guy who ran the camp goes, well, we have a media camp next week. Can you come? And I was like, heck yeah, I can come. And I like dropped everything and went to this camp. And that camp changed my life. I mean it was first of all it was all these young journalists and editors that I am still connected with to this day like one of them has had me work for him at Backpacker at Outside at like so like he just lives down the street I'm like working on a project for him now and I like we met at that camp and then the other one I met he hired me to move to Boulder and work for Trailrunner magazine like 24 years ago or whatever like he and he lives a block that way like we met at that camp So it was like all these young journalists interested in this kind of thing.

9:12And we all kind of just like, I don't know. It was just this amazing time and space thing. I don't know. It was cool. So then while we were doing this race, it was raining and we're like in a kayak. And I had this guy from CBS who was amazing. And we just, I was like, I had found my calling. I loved that you could be dirty. I love that you could always be in a hurry, that you're helping each other. The team aspect really called to me after being a team sports person because triathlon is so individual and running is so individual that the team aspect really moved me. I love that you're always sneaking around in the woods.

9:51You're turning your headlamp off. It's all strategy, and I'm like, that's just how I'm wired. Lisa had always loved the unknown parts of adventure racing. The feeling of moving through wild terrain, figuring things out on the fly, and the thrill of not knowing what came next. So when a friend of a friend named Tom asked her to pace him in an ultramarathon, Lisa realized it might give her that same sense of discovery all over again. How do you pick the athletes that you pace? Or do they pick you? Well, the first one, he kind of picked me, but it was like mutual friends. Sure, I'm up for it. I don't, I think, I think it's easier to find people to do it these days because everyone, there's so many ultra runners and people want a good training run, so they'll offer to pace a buddy.

10:44And then when I moved here, my friend Darcy needed someone and I was constantly that fit because of adventure racing and willing and able to do it. And I also really love the middle of the night shift. I'm all for, if I get a pick, I'm taking the middle of the night. Like how fun. Tell me about that. You know, I've honestly never done an ultra race. I've never been the kind of person that can stay awake much past 9.30 p.m. I've never run in the middle of the night in my entire life. What's that like? What is the middle of the night shift like? It's more adventurous, you know? Like the daytime is fine.

11:20It's fun. We're all used to being out in the daytime. But then it's night and you're like, ooh, I get to put on a headlamp. You kind of feel like a little kid. like you get to put on a headlamp and run through the woods and it's safe because it's you know it's a race there's people everywhere and it's beautiful at night even though you can't see a whole lot but you can see like the outline of trees and like moonlight on the lakes and it's just unique and if you're gonna do something like that why not do the most unique version of it like why not start at 10 p.m. I'd rather do that. I love an experience.

11:55I'm curious like what the strategy is when you pay someone like how much do you run with them and when do you decide when to run and when to let them go alone? Well, I feel like very organized and good racers will have meetings with their pacers before their events and tell them what their goals are and what they want you to be how, I don't want to say stern, but they'll tell you, look, at that stage in the race, I want to be running the downhills and the flats and maybe power hiking the uphills. And if I say I need to sit, don't let me sit down for more than five minutes or whatever, they'll tell you because they know before the race what they say is very different than during the race.

12:36Tell me more about that. Well, because before the race, they know what they want out of themselves. And then during the race, it's really easy to be like, no, I'm going to sit here for 20 minutes or I feel crappy or no, I'm not going to run or whatever. But they know when they're not tired and strained and what they're capable of and they set a plan. And so your job is to keep them on that plan, even though they're exhausted and maybe delirious. Like they had told you when they were in their right mind what they wanted out of it. And so it's kind of your job to remind them of that and keep them on track to their goal that they set before the thing even started.

13:14How are you thinking about time? Like, are you tracking the splits? Or are they managing that? Every trail is different. And every race is different. So you're keeping an eye on the time, or they had given you a little sheet like by 225 in the morning, I want to be at mile 72. And you're like, okay, we need to pick it up a little or we need to be running more like 14 minute, you know covering a mile in 14 minutes as opposed to 16 so you're like kind of just adjusting on the fly because like mile splits on trails are not consistent like we were with one of my runners one year he was like borderline gonna miss the cutoff so I knew we needed to make up time so we pushed faster it is so psychological it's that's part of what makes it so rewarding because it's like a little, you know, not that you're manipulating a human being and that's making it rewarding, but you are strategizing how to get this person to achieve their goal.

14:16So like whatever that means in the moment, right? Like, okay, they're grumpy. Let's lighten the mood. Let's talk about this, that, and the other or whatever. Or let's talk about something that makes them feel good. Like it's definitely psychological.

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17:00Lisa Jung is a journalist and adventure athlete who loves pacing ultramarathon runners. When she was in college, Lisa raced triathlons, and she enjoyed getting to run, bike, and swim all in one race. She's always chased variety, and pacing, even with all the miles it demands, allows her to use a different skill set.

17:25What parts are really hard, and what parts do you absolutely love? I mean, it's hard when your runner doesn't achieve their goal. It's emotional. And then you kind of miss it when you're done, too, because it's such an experience and such an adventure. But I love feeling useful, I guess, is really rewarding. What was the transition like for you from when you went from being a racer to being a pacer? I felt so lucky that I could experience the race environment and the race excitement and my runner's goals without having to do months or a year of intense training. and hours and hours of running and then, you know, to not have to run for their 100 miles.

18:19I was thrilled, honestly. I mean, that's now I think maybe sometimes I feel a little bit like, oh, it'd be fun to do this myself. But for the most part, I'm totally OK with seeing everybody else go after their goal. Like 14 miles through the night is like a few hours and it's adventurous and it's fun. And then I'm done and I'm like, okay, good night. See you at the finish line. Yeah. And you don't have like blisters and your toenails aren't falling off. Exactly. So that, and that's totally fine with me. Do you think that's just come with age? Um, it's possible that it's come with age, but I also think people who are still racing and in their twenties, thirties can still feel like that because they probably have their own goals.

19:06Like maybe they've got their own race two months later and they just need a good 20 mile training run with their friend. You know, I think, um, everyone can kind of get the joy out of pacing someone because it's not their day, you know, like, and there's nothing wrong with helping someone else have their day and then have your own stuff another time. So I think part of it comes with age. I don't know. One of my friends said it's because I love to coach. Like I'm helping coach high school girls volleyball these days. I've like started a running club at the elementary school. I taught snowboarding.

19:39I like this kind of dynamic, you know? So maybe it has to do with that. So it feeds that in me a little bit too. But I think there's a lot of reasons why I like it. And I think there's a lot of reasons why anyone at any age can get a lot out of pacing a friend or a stranger.

20:02Pacing is so much more than just putting one foot in front of the other. Lisa has to read her runners' moods and be aware of their history and preference for food, for rest, sleep, and even what motivates them. It's up to Lisa to decide when to push someone and when to pivot. When it's 3 a.m. and everything goes sideways on a dark trail in the desert, Lisa's right there, keeping the finish line within reach.

20:33What do you need from your runner to help pace them well? I think when a runner is, A, accepting of help and B, a good communicator, it makes a pacer's job way easier than if those two things were not true. um i've done one where they expressed a goal to hit a certain time that they hadn't expressed before because it just kind of came about in the moment and we're like okay let's what and then you you think you know you start okay well what what does this person need in this moment to reach that i'm like okay well if we're gonna do that and this person wants to do that right now so what's my how can i get them to do that how can i help them do that so there were like little extra words of encouragement or extra.

21:22Okay, well, let's, let's do it for a mile. Let's see how that feels. And then, okay, you're doing great. You're again with it. You're doing great. You're doing great. You clocked that, you know, you're, that was good. You're, you're still, you're moving really well. You look really good. You can keep doing this, you know, no matter how they think they're feeling or looking like, and in this circumstance, this person was looking really good and could do it. So, but it's just like, I guess, putting the belief back in them, you know, to that they, you look good. Let's, let's keep pushing. Why not?

21:48And then you're like, maybe I was running in front of this person and like maybe pushed it a little bit. And we did it. And it's tricky because I have my one friend now who doesn't ever want a pacer and it's not because of me, but like she just likes to be in her own head. She kind of feels like pacers can sometimes have their own agenda. And that I think can be problematic when like the pacers like gets all caught up in the moment and wants to, you know, beat the other person, even though your runner is like, no, this is my goal, not this. And so I think that's kind of a key thing for pacers to remember that it's not your goal, whatever that may be that day or that night, it's your runners.

22:27And so to not get caught up in the race in that way, even though you think you may be helping your runner or you could mask it as helping your runner, you kind of still just need to focus on your runner. But it's in the moment. It's like being a problem solver in the moment, right? I mean, it's like whatever is happening at the moment, in the moment, you need to solve the problem. And how rewarding is that?

22:59How has being close to people who are chasing these wild ideas impacted you personally? I think when I see people push through, challenge, whatever that looks like, that's always inspiring right like and even if it's I'm helping my runner and they're not suffering as much as this person who's like running bent over for their last 20 miles and then crosses the finish line you just burst into tears because you're like oh my god like people are amazing you know the things that people endure the people the things that people choose to do um but what really I mean the I'll go back to kindness when I see people helping each other out there or just simple acts, I guess.

23:47I mean, there's been times where two runners, maybe you're both barfing on the side of the trail and then they decide to like get up and help each other and like keep going through the night and then they're like best friends for life, that kind of stuff, you know. And just like aid station volunteers, these people are volunteering at four in the morning to hand out chips and ramen, you know, and they're really kind to the people who come in and like that's moving and then like my friend brad's kids like his son stayed up all night would not go to bed because he wanted to go to the next aid station with his mom and cheering his cheer on his dad you know and they've been my neighbors like since those kids were born and so like to see that and to see his kids so proud of him and i mean it's all it's all kindness it's all community it's all look out for each other and the cheering, just encouraging each other.

24:38Like, can we just all be like that all the time?

24:50You can find more about Lisa on her website, lisajung.com. That's L-I-S-A-J-H-U-N-G dot com. You can also find her on Instagram at lisajungwright. If you liked this episode, stay tuned for an upcoming interview with ultra runner Rachel Entrykin, who recently smashed a record at the Cocodona 250. Wild Ideas Worth Living is part of the REI Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, Shelby Stanger, produced by Annie Fassler, Sylvia Thomas, and Sam Pierce-Nitzberg of Puddle Creative. Our senior producer is Jenny Barber. Our executive producers are Paolo Motula and Joe Crosby. Thank you again to our partner, Capital One and the REI Co-op MasterCard.

25:41As always, we love it when you follow the show, take time to rate it, and write a review wherever you listen. And remember, some of the best adventures happen when you follow your wildest ideas.

26:02God bless you.