How to Talk to Trees with Lindsay Branham

0:02When we're out in nature, walking through a forest, sinking our feet into sand, or splashing in a mountain lake, we have a chance to relax. Taking this space from our day-to-day lives gives us room to think, to wonder, to imagine. But Lindsay Branham believes we can go even deeper than that, building a reciprocal and even intimate relationship with the natural world. Lindsay is an author and environmental psychologist, and when she told me she studies how people can talk to trees, I'll be honest, it sounded pretty wild to me. When I say we can talk to trees, what I mean is that trees are always speaking.

0:46They are speaking in a language that is both audible and can be felt and are waiting to share wisdom and love and messages with us if we would just listen.

1:02Before she started studying trees and our ability to communicate with them, Lindsay Branham worked as an Emmy-nominated documentary journalist. She covered international conflicts in places like the Democratic Republic of the Congo and made award-winning films for outlets like CNN, the BBC, and the New York Times. But in 2020, Lindsay's life took an unexpected turn that forced her to slow down and look inward. During this time, she discovered a deep and healing connection with nature that she wrote about in her new book, Heartwood. I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-op Studios production presented by Capital One and the REI Co-op MasterCard.

1:52Lindsay Branham, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you today. Yeah, me too. I want to start with your wild idea because it's different. Talking to trees for healing, for advice. I mean, that's wild. I like it. When was the moment you felt convinced you could communicate with trees? Well, okay. So let's just think about the fact that trees outnumber humans 422 to 1. There are more of trees than there are of human beings. They share over 50 % of our DNA. We are connected to trees, whether we realize it or not. And of course, they're converting carbon dioxide into oxygen for us.

2:36So I started getting really curious about what they could teach us or what they could teach me when I got really sick. I got a chronic sickness about six years ago. And I'd been a documentary filmmaker primarily in conflict zones for about 15, 18 years. And COVID happened, like all of us, the whole world stopped. And I started getting all of these chronic health symptoms, which was so confusing. I didn't know what was going on. really terrifying, really painful. And I don't think that this transformation in my life could have really happened at any other time or any other way instead of kind of being forced into it.

3:18But I had to pause my PhD studies because my cognitive decline was so acute. I couldn't do the type of executive functioning required of intensive doctoral studies. So now I have all this time I have a lot of confusion now existential crisis on top of that and so I started going on these long walks and there was a particular forest in White River National Forest in Colorado that I started going to because my parents had moved there during COVID so I would spend a lot of time with the trees there. And there was this one group of three aspen trees on an indiscriminate hill, like deep in the forest.

4:08And one of these long walks, it was in the winter. So, you know, in winter you're like moving through snow. It's not easy to like go on these long walks, but it feels satisfying. And all of a sudden I felt really drawn to pause with these three trees. and all of a sudden I started crying. And I kind of had that self-awareness of like, what's happening? What's happening? Why is this so powerful? And at the same time, just letting it happen to me. And I would say that was the start of a relationship with trees that really moved beyond appreciation of nature into something relational. And now what I've learned is we can all talk to trees.

4:49We all speak tree language and they're waiting for us to come and talk and listen and sit with them. And there's a world of wisdom that we can hear. So much to unpack here. Would you have ever thought that you would say something like this like 10 years ago? No, no. So just to put it in context, I was doing investigative journalism in Democratic Republic of Congo, tracking children that had been abducted by different rebel groups, documenting their struggle to return home, writing reports on really complex international conflict over conflict minerals. My work was very serious. It was very weighty.

5:31It was very investigative. And then here I am saying things that sound like really maybe out there. I definitely wasn't talking to the trees in the Congo. But to someone listening for the first time, they're probably like, Shelby, who is this girl? like this sounds insane. And other of our listeners are probably like, no, this makes perfect sense. Did you talk out loud to them that first time? Like, was it like out loud or in your head?

5:59Probably in my head. And sometimes I do say things out loud. But more often than not, I'm just standing really still, getting really quiet and listening from within, kind of like meditation practice or like mindfulness where, you know, you've got like really receptive and slow. And the natural world is always speaking, whether it's in the ways we are used to, like birdsong or the sound of leaves rustling or the crash of the ocean. there's a voice you could say and we hear through the ears let's say of our inner body and that's called interoception is that like where you have like a gut feeling or yeah yeah gut feeling intuition sensing our own heartbeat temperature changes from within or like tightness looseness.

7:02And so when we're with a tree, what I'm trying to do is like open up that eighth sense.

7:12In order to communicate with nature, Lindsay had to learn to sense the signals she was receiving from the trees. She wanted to figure out what exactly was happening on a scientific level. So the forest became her laboratory. There she began exploring interoception, or the body's ability to sense its own internal state. Things like hunger, a racing heart, or even a sense of belonging or peace. What Lindsay felt in the forest was both an innate knowing and an exchange with the natural world. The experience was so profound that she decided to study the relationship between humans and nature at the University of Cambridge, where she was already pursuing a PhD.

7:59At what point did you decide to actually go study this in school? Because I know you went and got your doctorate at the University of Cambridge, and you studied environmental psychology, which, by the way, I didn't even know that was a thing. Yeah, it's essentially like, what is the relationship between humans and the natural world, the psychology of our environment. And I think maybe like six months or eight months after that initial encounter, I started wondering, oh, is there something here I could do a PhD on? But I didn't feel better yet until enough time had passed. I was just living in that liminal, like, no, you know, underworld or something is what it like to be sick like that, you know, and anyone who's had chronic sickness can relate.

8:45It's like every day is just kind of like a struggle to get through it. So there wasn't a lot of, what do I want to do my PhD on? I'm just like, am I going to be okay today? And what about tomorrow? But then eventually I got excited about looking at this as a scientist. And there's a lot of research out there about the benefits of nature connection, which you're probably already very familiar with and your listeners probably would be. It's like, what are the human health benefits to spending time in nature? We know that nature is good for us, right? At some level. But then the other side of that of like, well, are we good for nature?

9:24The reciprocal side. And I wanted to understand not just how is nature good for us, but what is really going on in this relationship? Is it spiritual? Is it emotional? Is it embodied? So I started by doing a set of research with environmental activists, and I just focused on what is your relationship like with nature? What does that look like? And what kept rising to the surface was this very deep, personal, intimate type of bond where they would talk to the Redwood. They would talk to the ocean. They would ask the stones for wisdom. And I just started, my mind was just getting really blown. And I feel like I'd really like miss the plot and my like relationship to nature for a long time and didn't realize there was all of this possibility and adventure and discovery and wisdom.

10:17I'm curious, just what did you learn about specifically about nature and the human connection and like scientifically, like I'm still really curious since this wild idea is really we're focusing on talking to trees. Like how did you prove that? Yeah. So I went about looking at this eighth sense called interoception. So when I say speaking to trees, I'm talking about the language of our bodies and specifically this eighth sense of interoception. And I designed a set of experiments where I was able to prove that interoception, this eight skill, predicts closeness to nature, how close we feel through this attachment lens, and that how close you feel to nature predicts if you will protect nature.

11:12Has anybody told you something just crazy that a tree has told them, like, or really wild or really telling, really poignant? Yeah. I mean, for them, yes. Someone in my PhD research, she told me that a redwood tree gave her a message about what to do with the next 10 years of her life. And she did it. That's what she has committed herself to. She said that the information came through, the message came through. It felt so true to her that she just started crying and felt inspired. It felt like a divine, I don't know, almost like this gift. She was like, this is a gift. Oh, my gosh. And so that, you know, every person I interviewed for my PhD, I asked them this question.

12:01Like, have you ever gotten a powerful message from nature? And every single one was like, yep, yep, yep. This is what it was. This is what it meant to me. This is how it changed my life. So I'm thinking of us out here. Yeah, like people now talking to chatbots all day long, right? Trying to ask, what do I do with my life? Or what do I do with my boyfriend? And yet we have the living world out here that we could talk to.

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16:09Partway through her PhD in environmental psychology, Lindsay Branham began bringing her research on communicating with trees to a wider audience. She started running workshops, inviting all kinds of people to participate, not just nature lovers or activists. That's the beauty of the great outdoors. It doesn't care if you're a recent acquaintance or an old friend. It doesn't care about your politics, your gender, your sexuality. Nature is truly for everyone.

16:44I want to talk about talking to trees or just talk a little bit more about it. Because when you and I spoke and when you wrote to us, you said, you know, we've taught other people to do this and other people do from kids to businessmen. Do you have any examples or stories of this? Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, kids usually know how to do this already. So I don't know how to teach them too much, but just give them permission. Like how many kids in your life do you know who have a special tree or rock or, you know, talk to the wind or the ocean? Like it's just natural. But they've taught some workshops at an environmental education center in Aspen.

17:28And they're more of like a naturalist environmental protection place are amazing. But anyway, I proposed to them to do a talking to trees workshop and they were open to it. So I didn't know who come and I had a mix of people in the room, people who were more like coming from the naturalist world and then some business people and then some just lovers of nature, really a whole gamut. And I was kind of like, okay, I wonder how this is going to go, especially with a businessman. I'm going to ask him to probably do something that he hasn't done before. Maybe he isn't as familiar. So I had them go outside and it was brief.

18:10It was only 20 minutes, but find a tree first of all, then introduce themselves and then listen back for the tree to introduce themselves to them. That was the exercise. Seems simple. So I let them go. They went out. It was like beautiful night, stars everywhere, winter night. And I've learned over time to like really trust nature because nature will just do things and you don't have to meddle with it too much. And so everyone came back and they shared. And this one man in particular just said that he really felt like the tree talked to him. And he was like, what happened? I don't really understand it, but I really felt like I felt something.

18:50And his eyes were wide and kind of really like animated, filled with wonder. It was like looking at a child. It's like someone who has discovered something that they want to have again. It's like, oh, that's great. And left and it was nice. And then two years later, this just happened just a couple of months ago. I was on Aspen Mountain having pancakes with some people. And this couple was sitting there and we're going around and talking and talking a little about my book. And he was like, I think I was at your tree workshop. And I was like, really? He's like, yeah, two years ago, I was at your tree workshop.

19:27And I have to tell you that I have been talking to the tree in my yard ever since. And I was like, really? What's happened? And he's like, it just completely opened me up to this relationship. It means so much to me. And I feel like I get so much peace and relaxation and connection. And he was just filled with all this joy about it. It was just so touching to me. What do people learn from trees? And what did you learn from a tree? I mean, I think there's some pretty universal things that come up, you know, can be personal to me, but universal. I learn that time is long. When I'm sitting with a tree and standing with a tree, I feel like my understanding of time really changes and I get out of the rush of the modern frenzy and I feel this deep peace and sense of relaxation of like I'm part of a very long evolutionary trajectory and I can like trust time there's I love this phrase tree time so I feel like I go into tree time and tree time is not concerned with a lot of things that the modern world is concerned with and trees grow really slow but yet big changes are happening.

20:43They're just happening so slow. We don't see them. Right. So that fills me with curiosity and wonder about how the world works. Um, I learned that sharing and connection and community is everything when I'm sitting in front of a tree and I like really think about the forest they're connected to and how they're sharing sugars all the time. And there's, there's no ownership in tree forest. You know, there's no like king of the forest. All the trees are loved and nourished and they share. And I find that really touching. I think feeling like we're connected to all of nature is so good for our anxiety, for people with depression.

21:22It's like a salve. It's like a healing balm to feel like we're not alone. So indigenous cultures have known this, it seems like, since the beginning of time. did you study that at all yeah I feel like tell me a little bit about that because I don't want to like gloss over that like we had a lot of indigenous activists and I've spent a lot of time with Hawaiians and a few people who are Native Americans and and even just when I lived in New Zealand like they had a connection to land that was in nature that was unmatched than my buddies here just totally totally yeah Yeah. So the research that I did at Cambridge started with a set of interviews with Black Indigenous people of color, environmental activists.

22:11And so really the theory that developed out of that is from them, is really from them and their wisdom and their way of relating to nature. Indigenous people protect over 80 % of the world's biodiversity. they are living these values out every day at great threat to their lives. Indigenous people are arrested more frequently for defending land than anyone else. And so, yeah, this notion of nature is alive. Nature has spirit. We could talk to trees. The tree could be my ancestor is very much echoing and resonant with Indigenous worldview. Where it gets tricky and where we get into cultural appropriation is when starting to take their perspectives of their own proprietary knowledge of plants and the wisdom of trees and their language and claim it as our own or steal it, right?

23:07We always have to be so careful of that.

23:16In many ways, Lindsay's research is an effort to center Indigenous knowledge and tradition and understand it through a Western lens. The people she interviewed for her PhD, whether indigenous people, environmental activists, or simply recreationalists, had all felt this deep connection to nature that starts in the body. Each of them described the same thing Lindsay had experienced, moments of genuine personal guidance from the natural world.

23:52So I'm going to go to Sequoia. What can I do? How can listeners, how can I talk to trees? And I probably don't even have to do this in Sequoia. I'm sure there's a tree outside my house. But yeah, I mean, Sequoia, what an amazing place. These are the biggest trees and the oldest trees, the most badass trees. Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, to be with giants, basically. I mean, I would really start with that first exercise I talked about, which is let yourself find a tree or be drawn by a tree. I like thinking of it that way. we're really used to moving through the world with what do I like what do I want but I really like people switching that frame of like what tree is actually drawing me what tree is attracting me what tree is inviting me you will feel it actually you will everyone can feel that it's subtle right and like it doesn't have to be so serious it's not like you have to use your brain a lot just play with it.

24:45You can't do right. You can't do wrong, right? But see if a tree in particular draws you and then at least give it 20 minutes for that first time, but just sitting or standing and then introducing yourself, however that makes sense. Maybe you say your name out loud. Maybe you just stand there and invite them to witness you, whatever that means to you. And then listening, them to introduce themselves to you and just making space, see what happens. And then you might want to put your hand on the tree or put your hands on the tree. And even just as simple as like, I'm here. I want to get to know you.

25:26I don't really know what I'm doing, but I want to have some kind of relationship. And then just, again, leaving some space to see what happens, what comes through. like you'll probably get some sensations certainly in your body you might have things come pop into your mind and you might be like wait is this am I making this up or is this tree really saying this then like doesn't really matter you know um and if I if this was a retreat or something then I would be like okay go back to that particular tree every morning or every day for like however number of days because I think it can be hard for us to try to do this with like all the trees, you know, but if it's one that we were like slowly getting to know and even see the particularities of, I think it can feel more possible.

26:19And then ask whatever you want. There's this practice in my book called that wisdom or a medicine walk, I think, where you like ask a big life question you're holding. We all have them, right? Like, what do I do with this career question or this lover or this issue my child's going through? And just ask that question and then go on this walk with the intention to really listen to the trees for an answer or for wisdom. And again, that might seem like really weird, but you'd be surprised what, again, comes through by just giving yourself that open time to be with nature in a receptive way.

27:05I know that being outside helps me think through problems, come up with new ideas, or even process grief. After talking to Lindsay, Johnny and I went to Sequoia and we actually tried talking to trees. I know it sounds crazy, but it was actually really fun and really cathartic. My team often talks about turning to nature to refresh their sense of creativity and recover from burnout. It's nice to know that there's evidence for what we're feeling. I encourage you all to go outside and try this type of mindfulness. You can even sit under a specific tree, introduce yourself, and see if you hear anything back.