The Power of Doing One Thing Exceptionally Well with Gymshark Founder and CEO Ben Francis

25:55So I'm really passionate about the gym. We're really passionate about the gym. So we're going to focus on the gym. That's it. That's where our consumer is. That's where our product should be designed around. That's our USP. That's our competitive advantage. And that's what we're really good at. Now, obviously, there's more to it, right? So when the brand was first started, we'd grown up in the UK. We would buy like T-shirts. Topman 2 for£10 T-shirts was just a thing. So two T-shirts for£10 was amazing. So affordability is really important for us because when you're joining the gym, you don't want to be spending loads of money on really expensive stuff.

26:28You want really good quality and you want it to perform, but equally you don't want to have to pay loads and loads of money. So affordability is really important for us. We have to build affordable product for our consumer and it has to be the best gym wear in the world. And if we do those three things, everything else then tends to fall into place as long as we're thoughtful about it. So you were tempted to go in all these directions, swimwear, hiking, all of these things. But we said, no, we're just going to focus on. And you said, but you did try those things, right? You did start expanding your product line.

26:55Yeah. And then we ended up just basically having a longer tail, basically. So we had lots of products that would sort of sell less, basically. So we proportionately sold more. The business obviously continues to grow. But then rather than selling 50 of two products, we were selling 10 of 10 different products. So we were selling a similar amount, but across lots of different things. Isn't that a good business? Isn't that what every company wants, to sell more of everything? Traditional business would say, ah, that's sticky, because now our customer wants our hiking gear, and they want our swimming gear, and they want our gym gear.

27:33Look, we're creating stickiness. I think the second there's consequences, and to us the consequences are the brand is watered down. And then also what you've got is you're splitting your reason to believe for a product across lots of different things. And it's interesting. We launched a product about a month ago, two months ago. It's what we call our Onyx product. It's the most extreme Gymshark product that you can possibly sell. It's a thick, seamless product. It's all around bodybuilding. It's a men's product all around accentuating your physique. The audience size for that is 1 % of that in hiking or in lots of different things.

28:11It was by far the biggest launch that we've ever done. we had over 400 ,000 people sat on the website waiting to buy this product. And you would look at it and you would think, most people I know probably wouldn't wear this product, but it's because we were speaking to our core, core audience, the lifter, the bodybuilder, that wants to really accentuate their physique, wear the Gymshark logo, seamless, tight-fitting product. And it's an incredible product. It's a brilliant product that we're so proud of, but it is a very niche product. And again, what we found is we win or we do the best and we, I guess, build the most clarity with our customer is when we just focus on doing what we're really good at and not trying to be similar to everyone else.

28:48So you did expand. You went to hiking and swimming and all that, but then you contracted. You closed all those down? Yeah, we said we're going to do gym wear really well, and then we basically narrowed the product range massively. And what is the benefit of selling 50 of 1 versus, or 50 of 2 versus 10 of 10? So, well, one, let's really focus on the gym, which is what we want to do. But, I mean, you aside, like as a business concept. Oh, so well, you get far better economies of scale with suppliers, which means you get more purchase leverage. You can obviously work more closely on the product. So you'll have a higher quality of products, I would say.

29:21So, you know, if you need 10 developers to build 10 products, you need five to build five. So you then get far more economies of scale and efficiencies through the business. And you've got your entire business focused on something that's really specific. So it's not only you only get brand benefits. you build a better product, you have a more efficient and effective business, and everyone's marching in the same direction. This is genius. Here's the analogy. It just occurred to me now because even me, my knee-jerk reaction is, if you can sell 10 of 10 and you can expand, my goodness, you can all these new customers.

29:55But the analogy is I hate restaurants that have very big menus because how can you make all of these dishes taste good? There's just no way. You have ingredients sitting in the fridge for too long. There's just no way, right? And the best restaurants in the world have quite small menus. You know, there's a very limited selection because they have a limited amount of very high quality ingredients. And so this is what you're saying, which is this is your menu. It's a small menu. And that way I can absolutely guarantee that this would be the best food you've ever eaten, the best product you've ever had because I am not distracted and I don't have to try and sell because I've got excess, you know, merchandise sitting over there.

30:37I've got excess chicken that I've got to push the chicken before it goes off. It's exactly the same. It's a small menu. And I think, and then to your point then on that, if we've got a narrow product range that is really focused around gym, it means we can better leverage our finite resources to be in the best in the world at that. But then I guess the second order consequences of that are looking to build a 100-year brand is then the people that are involved in Gymshark are really focused on that. And then when you think about hiring, if you're hiring for a short-term goal, if we're hiring just to get to x by three years then you'll hire you i found that you're far more likely to hire externally and you'll always then bias towards have they done it before i need someone that's done what i want to do before externally hire them in can you do what you did there here when i think about building a hundred year brand i don't want people to come in particularly you know into leadership or senior teams i don't want people to come in for three years do what they've done somewhere else to do it here i want people to join for 10 20 30 years i want people to build a career here and to be really focused around the long term of the business and to really put the business first rather than just this be a stepping stone on in their career so you've got product effects you've got sort of hiring effects and then if you think about our brand the we do gym campaign is perfect it's three words but it says exactly what gym shark is it's all about the gym and then for us then it's not about we do gym we do this we do that it's literally we do gym and we want to land that message as regularly as possible so that it's really clear to what we are.

32:05But going back to the hiring practices, right? And again, you know, we're having a problem in X. I'm going to hire somebody who's done this before. I've made this mistake. I've hired somebody who's done it before. They come into our culture and I'm like, okay, you've done it. Please do it. And it rarely works well because they try and force us to do things the way their old company did it, not, you know, or there's an insecurity, right? Because their whole sense of self-worth is I have to repeat that. and their desire to push their boundaries, do things differently, challenge themselves, throw out the playbook is dramatically reduced because they have to repeat their success.

32:42But their success is the past. There's a great story. You might appreciate this. I got a tour of Apple and the Apple historian took me around and he was telling me like, they've hired some remarkable people like this person invented this for Google and this person invented that for Facebook and now they all work at Apple and they walk around with these inflated egos and in sitting meetings and go, I don't think you know what I did at Google. And somebody invariably at Apple will lean forward and say, we don't care what you've done. We care what you're going to do. How do you hire young people where, you know, culturally it's much more acceptable to bounce from job to job to job?

33:19Are you very clear that, you know, we want to hire somebody who wants to stay for a long time? Do you like do your young do your youngest employees find themselves working here for four or five, six, seven years? and they can't believe they've been here longer than any of their, have held a job longer than any of their friends. Yeah, we're definitely seeing more of that. I think this is a transition that we've made in the last two years, so we're starting to move through that, and we're definitely seeing that. The other thing that we've noticed is we're sort of, in a way, bringing more in-house than what a lot of other people would do as well.

33:46So I don't know if you saw over the road, we've got a full sampling facility, and we've got great technical expertise here. Now a lot of other people would just outsource all that and just give that to factories, but it's really important to us, was we work really closely with our partners that a lot of the sampling, a lot of the development, a lot of our innovation projects. I saw you have a mini factory across the street. But we want to own that internally. And again, if you were doing it purely on a short-term P &L, you wouldn't run that. Because if you took all that cost out, then obviously that would just increase profitability.

34:13But for us, the profitability that we have is there to be reinvested into the long-term future of the business. And it's really important for us to have genuine product developers and technical experts in-house rather than outsource that because that's our most powerful asset, right, is our people, but our technical ability to build our product. And I don't want to be constantly outsourcing some of the most special things of our brand. You told me a lovely story about your grandfather that at the end of every year, he calls you up and asks you one question. Did you make any money this year? Yeah.

34:49And all you have to do is say yes. Yeah. He would never ask how much. Just say, did you make any money this year? Yeah. Well done, lad. That's it. Clearly, you have financial goals. I mean, you're a sophisticated company. Yeah. If you've missed that financial goal, but you're profitable, are you happy or are you angry? I think it depends. Again, in the last few years, because we've been changing our strategy in the way that we want to approach things, I think if we're moving in the right direction, which we absolutely are, then I'd be happy. I think it's really important to me to remember that forecasts are forecasts.

35:24Forecasts are a, you know, it's a best guess at where you're going to be generally at the start of the financial year. And we'll re-forecast as we go through the year. The important thing for me is did we stick to doing what we said we were going to do in the really important parts of our business that matter? So did we continue to know that we do gym campaign? Did we continue to really invest into our product in the right way? You know, is the shape of our business where we want it to be? Have we had that really nice, incredible new product development, which we're really proud of? Those are the things that really matter.

35:54Now, what you can't do is then just completely alienate yourself from all financial results because that would not build a 100-year long-term sustainable business. I think by definition to be a long-term 100-year business, you have to be profitable because profitability allows you to invest in the long-term of the business, but it also insulates you from all of the inevitable macroeconomic surprises that will come up. But in that infinite-minded 100-year mindset and based on the advice or the question from your grandfather, so long as you're building the business the way you want to build it, so long as you're following your values, you're sticking to your core, so long as that purity remains, if you miss that projection but everything's going in the right direction, you're not angry.

36:36You're fine. As long as we can continue to fund our own growth, build the business. So if the profitability drops too low. Did you make money? And you say yes. To some degree, you are okay with that. I'm happy, yeah. Going back to, there's a, I don't want to call it an irreverence, because I don't think it is irreverent. There's an honesty that I see on the walls here. I mean, I always think a lot of companies waste space in their offices because they have all this magical space, and they don't remind everybody why they're here. There are words all over your office that remind people why they're here, both your values and just these nice sort of reminders.

37:13But they're not sweet, you know? They're reminding people, take care of the people in the gym, you know? One of them says, give a shit. It's one of your values. It's just very honest and it's written. It's no asterisks. It says give a shit on the wall. In fact, right behind us, I love this one, right behind us, you can't see it. It says on the wall, it's the only thing written on the wall in big letters is don't be a dickhead. And it's reminding everybody, like, this is how you show up at work. I mean, this is their office, and it says don't be a dickhead. Like, where does that come from? Because a lot of people, I think, they say those words, but they would never write them on the wall.

37:55Yeah, there's a few things. So there's four things that we sort of build ourselves around when it comes to our values and the way that we work. One is hard work. And again, going back to - To the gym. Yeah, going back to the gym. Going back to what it's like building a business. where it's incredibly hard work. And to build a business in the way that we want to, it is hard work. And I think it's important to recognize that. One team, again, go back to what you said in terms of what it says on the wall. One team is really, really important. That's not your function. That's not your department. That's the entire business.

38:27We've got community first as well. Everything that we do is all around serving our community. That's the most important thing. The reason that we build product, the reason that we build events, the reason that we build the brand is to serve the customer and the community in the same way that I was, you know, when I was a kid and I first joined the gym, that's what Gymshark's there for. And then humility as well. Humility is really, really important because I think humility then allows us to be always learning. And again, us getting to where we are today has been because of so many failures and things that, you know, we haven't always been focused on building a 100-year brand, whereas now we really are.

39:01And I think it takes that humility to recognize when you're not going in the right direction in order to get yourself in the right way. Can you tell me a specific story where when you look back now, you're like, I don't know what I was thinking. And I would never make that decision now. And are you able to look back and say, here's why I made that incredibly bad decision? Oh, God, he had loads. Give me one specific one that if you look back now, it's a little bit embarrassing that you chose it. And you were so confident in that choice in the moment. But it was misdirected for all the wrong reasons.

39:30I'm trying to think one that wouldn't be. So we've made loads of sort of operational mistakes. So I'll give you a good one. And this is probably more specific to being a British business. So most of our business, most of our customers in the United States. And we've had incredible growth in the US. And I'm so lucky, right, since the business started, since I was in my late teens, early 20s, I've been going to the US constantly. And I absolutely love it there. And I feel so lucky every time I'm there. And there was a period about five or six years ago where everyone said, if you want to win in the US, you've got to open up an office out in the US and you've got to give the US that freedom to run the brand in the way that they think is right to grow in the US, which I think to a degree is right.

40:17But obviously me being probably more higher propensity to risk as an entrepreneur, I was like, yeah, let's do it. Go on, let's open up the office, let's build the team, let's give them the freedom and they can just run with it. And I made a few hires that were wrong. I hired people that had come from bigger businesses that maybe weren't as attuned to the entrepreneurial way that I thought that we wanted to build. And then we started to go into, like what we said earlier, sportswear and all of these different things. And all of a sudden, the product then looked very different. The brand looked very different.

40:45And there was a point where, I remember me and Noel, who's our chief of brand, we went to the US and Noel put on the screen and he said, this is Gymshark in the UK. And I looked at it and I thought, wow, that looks great. That's Gymshark through and through, bodybuilding, lifting weights and people in the gym. And then he went, this is Gymshark in the US. And it was a guy who was playing football. And he just didn't look like Gymshark to me. It almost looked like Nike with a Gymshark logo on. And what we'd done is I'd given far too much freedom for essentially the American team to build out the business in a way that they thought was relevant in the market.

41:24And I felt so bad because I thought, I've just completely done this wrong. And what we've actually learned is a real centralized control of brand in particular and products globally because our brand and product needs to be relevant globally not different in different markets with a more nuanced sort of commercial approach so in the US you know we're probably going to open up more stores as an example whereas in the UK we'll be more e-commerce focused because it's a far smaller country and pretty much everywhere in the UK you get next day delivery so we're not we don't need as many stores and I've done it the wrong way around I'd been tight on the commercial approach and then I've been really open on the go-to-market brand and it meant that the brand looked completely different and basically what we had to do was completely re-look at the entire office we actually ended up moving the office to new york and we just completely started again we probably lost 18 to 24 months just because of that mistake and i'd just been i just hadn't thought it through enough and i think again with the learning for me there is given how important the brand is to a business like ours, to be so relaxed about it was such a huge mistake.

42:26Are there entrepreneurs now that you sort of, I won't say model yourself after, but you look to and be like, I, you know, formal and informal mentors? I'll always, obviously, my granddad. My granddad, when he started his business, he basically had to risk everything. and he had two kids, my mom and her sister. Her sister has, my auntie has learning difficulties. So there's a level of cost with her care. My granddad was working in factories, BSA factories in the Midlands and things like that. So he took a massive risk to start his business. It was actually that, it was hearing as a kid about the risks that he took that made it so easy for me to start businesses when I was a kid.

43:11Cause he was telling me about all these massive risks and he had to look after my nan and the kids. and when i'm 18 and i didn't have to take i had no one that i had to worry about really other than myself that made it that really made me realize the opportunity i had to take risks so i definitely learned sort of risk taking from him obviously my parents have been i've got i've got such an amazing family my mom and dad are incredible as well and i learned so much from them my mom worked in the nhs her entire life one of the most hard work in national health national healthcare so she's she was a nurse coronary care so a heart nurse again my dad incredibly hard working and incredibly mental strength like nothing i've ever seen before um but then more in terms of industry um so there's a guy who lives in london called a jars ahmed and he actually founded a company called akqa which is a basically it was a big marketing agency he's um he's since started another agency since and i learned a lot from him and he's so brand first.

44:12What did you learn from him? I learned, I remember we were doing our first ever restructure of the business and I remember it was killing me. It was absolutely killing me. The thought of people losing their jobs and having to restructure our business and it was the right decision in the more appropriate way for the sort of post-COVID market that it was at the time. and I remember we went out for food one day and I was like, Charles, come on, help me out here. Have you ever done this before? And he's the kindest bloke you'll ever meet. And he just gave me some advice and he said, just make sure that you do things in the right way.

44:51Just make sure you do it in the right way. And he actually told me that he'd done a similar thing earlier in his career and it was the best thing that he'd ever done. And it really helped his business then to grow because the way that he described it to me was around your business needs to move as quickly as the market. and you're in a market that's constantly moving. If you're slower than the market, then obviously things are going to get away from you and you won't be able to effectively serve your consumer. And he also was constantly talking about building long-term brands, being in an agency role.

45:18He's seen great brands, he's seen not great brands. And he sort of really has an enthusiasm for brand that a lot of people don't. And I think a respect for brand that a lot of people don't. So speaking to him and learning about pushing through the hard times, doing things in the right way and really focusing on the long-term was really important to me. So I definitely learned a lot from a jars. Harley and Toby at Shopify. I haven't seen them in a while, but again, just listening to the way that they think about business is incredible. What did you learn from them? I learned, it was really funny actually.

45:51So years and years ago, they did a competition and we won the competition because we were one of the faster growing businesses on Shopify, particularly in the early days. And they flew us out to New York to see the Stock Exchange. that was the first ever media training I had it was the scariest thing I've ever done and then we went out to Fiji and we were sat around loads of incredibly successful entrepreneurs obviously Toby and Harley that were there there was Tony Robbins and there was a handful of other people there was the guy from Airbnb there was Tim Ferriss I think was there and I'm just sat looking at all these people thinking I've seen you on like YouTube on the internet but I I can't believe I'm seeing you in real life.

46:31And then I wasn't really saying anything, I was just listening. And then I think someone said, someone said, oh, was talking to someone else. And they were like, oh, do you have a plan for that? And he said, no, I'm just winging it. And then someone else went, yeah, I'm just winging it too. And I remember looking around thinking, you guys are running businesses that are probably bigger than our business will ever be. And if you're just winging it, then that makes me feel so much better about myself. Cause I feel like I'm just winging it. And I'm just looking at all these people. And I had this moment of realization thinking, if you're winging it, I'm probably always going to be winging it.

46:59And then it made me realize that I don't have to feel like I've always got everything together. There was a recognition around the table that everyone's doing a lot of things for the first time. And there's a level of comfort that then that gave me that I don't always have to have everything together. I can explore new ideas and I can fail at things and it's not defining of me or nor the business. And then we can equally, when you do succeed, that's not defining. It doesn't mean you're always going to be successful. There's this real nice feeling I had where it was almost like pressure off from this moment.

47:31I'm doing a lot of things for the first time and I'm just going to try my best to do it right. And I'm going to build a business that I'm proud of. As you're talking about it, you know, I'm realizing there's two types of winging it. And this is, and again, I'm going to sound like a broken record, which is there's a reason I admire the purity of your business, which is it is a, the foundation is so strong. The values are so strong. The clarity of who we are, what we do, and who we serve is so strong that I think when you have strong foundation, strong values, then you can wing it. Because it's based on something down here.

48:02Not on a quicksand. It's based on something down here. And so you're making these decisions, but it's born out of something, and there's a code that's guiding those reactive decisions. right companies that I think are winging it based on market opportunity pressure from investors they're still winging it but it's not stuck to anything there's no code there's no values and those are the ones who are chasing market share chasing trends and they may have little spikes and little short-term successes they may you know you throw enough spaghetti against the wall some of it does stick yeah and and that may even propel them to be viewed as quote-unquote it's successful because they won a lottery on one of those guesses, but it's not sustainable.

48:45You know, you look at a lot of companies that were on the covers of magazines that barely exist anymore, you know, and they've all been on the covers of all the magazines. So I think there's two types of winging it, you know, there's winging it based on values and based on knowing who you are, and there's winging it taking your cues not on that purity of our customer and ourselves, but winging it based on an investor or some market trend that you're chasing. Because when you were winging it and chasing swimming and hiking, that was externally. Yeah. You know. It was now when we really, it's funny, my mom went to, we got a shop in London on Regent Street.

49:25My brother took my mom to the shop a few months ago. And he said they got to the end. Mom went, do you know what, Joe? I'm not really a fan of a lot of the product that you're making at the moment? And Joe went, too right. You're 50 something years old and you haven't been to the gym in 20 years. And it was a bit of a funny moment where he sort of told my mom. And it was like, that's right. You know, our customer goes to the gym all the time. They're in their early 20s and they want to wear product to show off their physique. We're not building product for my 55 year old mom who was a nurse in Selly Oak.

50:02Do you know what I mean? So it was quite, that was quite a funny moment. I was quite proud of him because it was a bit like, yeah, this is who we are and this is what we stand for. And I know that's a funny sort of extreme example, but that's what we have to continue to put our business on. You know, there's an irony in your brand. And the irony is a lot of your clothes, as you said, are made to show off. Like your T-shirt that you said that's physique accentuated. Physique accentuated. It's tight. Let me show you the result of all my hard work. You know, I've bought your stuff and sized up because it's too tight.

50:35But that's what it's supposed to be. You know, you can degrees of how much your bum you want accentuated, you know. I mean, like, it's all about showing off the hard work. But as a company, you're not a show-off company. Reconcile that your products are for showing off, but you don't like showing off. You're the opposite. You're totally humble and sort of on a journey and know you have more to learn, etc. Yeah, I know. I think while we have product, right, we have the oversized product as well that you can just sort of throw on and you can wear in the winter months where you're just trying to build up your physique.

51:10But no, I don't know. I don't know. I think if I had to guess. Yeah. If I had to guess, I think it goes right back to why you like the gym, which is, and you said it right at the beginning of this interview, which is if I do hard work, I will see the results of my hard work. And I think if somebody is going to spend the time to go to the gym and put in that effort, part of the reward is being able to see what I've done. And the best way to see it is with a, naked is one way, but to wear a product that you can see my hard work. Because, I mean, there aren't shortcuts. Yeah. And it's great because we do these events.

51:58You should come to one at some point. We've got one. We've got a couple coming up, one in the UK, one in the US. And you go there and you'd expect everyone to be massive and shredded and bodybuilder. but they're all sorts of physiques. And there's a recognition that if you're in the gym, you're on the journey and everyone's on that journey together. And I really, really like that. And it's just a really nice place to be. And again, it's great because that's what I grew up doing. I remember I went to Body Power in Birmingham. It was the best, it was, I think it was the best fitness event in the world in the sort of 2012, 2013 time.

52:30I remember being so annoyed because I had to leave the event early to go to my shift at Pizza Hut sort of thing. But it was such an inspiring event for me. So, yeah, to be able to do this day in, day out, that was great. I mean, the more we talk about this, the more I realize that your community, when I started running, or actually not even when I started, when I was a full-on runner, I would be running around Central Park. I'd run around Central Park, you know, whatever it was, three, four times a week. And there was something magical about runners, and I assume it's the same people for gym rats, which is I would run past someone who is not in shape.

53:07they are really struggling to go to very very slow pace you know and here we are we're all you know fit and running fast and keeping our pace and all of this stuff and i remember and to this day you run past them and you go yeah the level of respect you lift your head yeah you're out here doing the work and the thing that i loved about that community was nobody thought they were better than somebody else we were some of us were in better shape and some of us were in lesser shape and you said different shapes different sizes but there was such respect that you're out here doing the work and you gotta you gotta head i remember when i was huffing and puffing some elite runner would walk past me and give me a head nod like and i love that the only other time i've seen that i i this is a funny i i worked out with uh the 82nd airborne i worked out with the the the military the army and i remember we were up at the crack of dawn it was still dark out and we're in the car park doing press-ups, doing push-ups.

54:09And it was like gravel. So it was like unbelievably painful on your hands doing push-ups on a gravel. And we're like, do all this work. And I'm like, whew, good workout, guys. It turns out that was the warm-up. And then we actually went and did the workout, which was a circuit. And we had to do the circuit a number of times. And it was one of the best workouts of my life, and I'll tell you why, which is absolutely we're all competing like when we were running guys were pushing hard right but nobody was competing against each other they were competing against themselves right like if somebody who wanted to win it's not because they wanted somebody else to lose it's because they wanted to push themselves to be the fastest that day but i remember guys would run past me and they tapped me as they ran past me like keep it going keep it going and so even in competition yeah they were pushing and rooting for the others.

55:01So again, it was pushing themselves. They were competing against themselves. They weren't competing against each other. And it was the most amazing experience with hyper A-type competitive people that wouldn't gloat because they beat you. They would be proud because they won. There's a big difference. But they were pushing everybody else to run harder, push harder, pull, lift heavier. It was kind of amazing. But don't you think that's the sort of thing it would be nice to see more in general business is in people just trying to build the best business that they possibly can, rather than constantly comparing to a another business that is similar in one specific way, but different in every other specific way.

55:39because I often see a lot of that of oh Gymshark have a I don't know they're great at e-commerce or they've got a great social following and and I think so many people will come and ask me what you know how should I build my business I think so much around you just need to build your business for you around what is important to you and around you know your community and your customer rather than trying to build another version of Gymshark and it goes back to that foundation right you've You've got to know who you are and what you stand for. And then you build from there. I don't think you can build a 100-year business trying to compete or beat somebody else.

56:14I think you can only build a 100-year business trying to outdo yourselves. Yeah, I agree. What's your approach to managing your time so that you get the most out of your professional and personal life? Oh, this has changed. So this has changed a lot since we had kids. So before, I would just work all the time and fly whenever, go anywhere at a moment's notice. my wife said to me since we had kids she was like I want you home on the weekends and it's really important to me that I am because I just love being with the kids and being at home with the family and Robin so within generally I'll be at home on the weekends and again that's important for me to protect in the week I generally really try and focus my time around products and essentially the the direct sort of team that I work with I also just love going something I I love to do more than anything, is just to go to loads of different gyms.

57:06So if I'm in New York, I'll just try different gyms. Because you end up just chatting to people all the time and you end up learning something that you would never, ever normally pick up. And again, quite fortunate now doing, I guess doing the job I do, because sort of people come up to me as often as I'll come up to them. But I absolutely love that. But no, generally I'll focus my time around, obviously being in the office every day. I am not the sort of person that I could ever work from home. But generally it'll be around being with a team and focusing on the product. And when you're at home on the weekends, you're not at home just working.

57:36You're at home with the family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would avoid work at all costs on the weekend if I can. Love. One of the things that's interesting is you have on the wall family first as one of the values. What can people who are not running companies do to have an impact on the world, but still make sure that they're providing for their loved ones? How do you strike that balance? Because at some points, one of those things has to get sacrificed, right? People who make an impact, as you said, aren't necessarily at home all the time. What can the rest of us do? Do you have to pick one? I mean, I don't know.

58:12I think the thing I've noticed, and this is both with myself, also with friends and colleagues, is if you do a job that you really, really enjoy, you genuinely enjoy, I think you'll often be better at it, and then I think you'll be happier in your general life. And even if you have to work, there's periods, I think, where you have to work more. There's periods where you can probably get away with working a little bit less. And I know it sounds cliche, but I do think focusing on what you love. I've got friends that I've got a friend actually who moved on from here not too long ago. He was one of the first employees who worked here for about 10 years.

58:45And he just sort of ran out of mojo. He sort of, we were chatting, he wasn't really enjoying the job as much as he was. And he sort of wanted to be here because he always was. But then he sort of didn't because there's a load of other things he wanted to, he wanted to travel and he wanted to do work abroad and stuff. and we were just sat there and we said um just go off and do it just go off and do it and you can always come back you know if you don't if you go off and you go and work in spain for a bit and you don't like it you can always come back and and that's what he's done and he seems so happy he's loving it and it's it's really nice to see so it's it's an interesting thing for me whereas the difference in him in making that decision he's just like a different person he seems so excited and happy and that you know i've got lots of other friends and don't get wrong i'd rather a lot of them have not left.

59:28I'd much rather than just be with me and stay here because we're friends and I love being with them. Focusing on what they love is really important. And then there's people that have been here for 10, 11, 12 years, literally since day one, that love it just as much, if not more than they did. And I think for me, doing what you love is really important. I think it's interesting because we and I have had some highs at this business that are incredible. Being the fastest growing company in the UK, some of the global events that we've done, some of the incredible things that we've done out in the US.

1:00:04And they're genuinely incredible achievements I'm so proud of. But then when you get home and one of your kids runs up to you and gives you a massive hug and is happy that you're home, it trumps all of them. So I think it's also worth remembering that as well. Ben, it's such a treat for me to sit down with you. I could talk to you forever. And, you know, this is the second time we've hung out and I've learned from you more. this time, even the last time, I really, really am rooting for you because I think how you're building your business is the way all businesses should be built from now on. Thank you.

1:00:37Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Really appreciate it. So good. A Bit of Optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius and Devin Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsynic.com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.