Ask Paula: “I Ran Out of Gas with 85 Cents in My Bank Account”

29:57But if you really unpack that, bad things, there's often an inflection point where the bad things come to fruition all at once. But behind that inflection point, the circumstances that made that inflection point possible accumulated over time. I'm thinking as you're speaking, I learned from analogies and I have a friend who is a physician who works with older people and he talks about how often people late in age, late 80s, in their 90s will break a leg, they'll break a hip, they'll have a fall. And that is very quickly, they will go from healthy and fine and everything's great to they pass away within six months.

30:49Just because the underlying engine is not what it used to be. In my case, I didn't have the underlying money engine at all. I was just paycheck to paycheck, just making it, making it, making it, making it. And then something, the first bad thing would happen. And to your point, it was done. Because then all this underlying, there is no foundation. There's no backbone. There's no budget. There's no strategy. There was another piece for me, which is that my spouse, Cheryl, and I also didn't talk about money. And because we didn't talk about money and I was a spendaholic, Paula, and I was a financial planner who wasn't doing good.

31:31I wasn't doing well. I was kicking ass. I was a first year financial planner making almost $200 ,000 in the Midwest on a retail level. I wasn't a Goldman Sachs banker making a million dollars in my first year, but a dude working with retail people that had a creative writing major, right? Who comes in with a bunch of finance majors and I light it up. I was one of the top advisors in the Detroit area for first year advisors. I was the rising star and my own personal financial picture is in shambles. So I'm smart enough to figure this out. I know I can figure this out. If I just make more money, I will figure it out.

32:08So I also hid it from my spouse. So when the phone calls start coming, you can imagine how then that went because nobody likes to be lied to, have things hidden from them. So most of the advice that I give today comes from personal experience because this worked for me. The final straw for me, and then we can get into the healing. The final straw was during that first year, I make$85 ,000. I get this money, all is 1099 income, meaning I own my own business. I don't understand credit. You think I understood how to run my own business? I had no idea. Business structure, business setup, how business ran.

32:51I just knew how to talk about money and solve other people's problems. Then the money came in and I'll set money aside for taxes later because I need all of this today, right now, because I don't know the math. So I get advice around April 1st. Taxes are due on April 15th. April 1st. I start looking around like, hey, I need some CFP to help me with this stuff. I have like 15 days to file my taxes. So let's get this done. So I get this name, a guy named Bill, CFP named Bill. I go and I meet with Bill. And Bill's like, hey, do you have this? You have this? You have this? I'm like, what? You need what?

33:35Huh? So I cobbled together a few things. And because I didn't know all the things that you can write off for a business, I gave Bill next to nothing. So Bill on$85 ,000 of income then tells me that I owe like$12 ,000 in taxes. Right. It could have been$200. I didn't have it. Right. It could have been$75. I didn't have it. I had no credit, no money, no recourse. I certainly wasn't going to come clean about tax debt to a family member. Like I wasn't going to say that. But so I did two things. I got mad at the profession I was working with. I literally said to Bill, how can you do this to me? It's not Bill's fault.

34:26It isn't Bill. Now, on one hand, I realized Bill wasn't the right guy for me. And I'll get back to this. But I realized Bill wasn't right for me because I needed people with the heart of a teacher. I love we had a guest on recently at Stacking Benjamins, John Hope Bryant. He's a financial activist. He's a wonderful man. He's great. John Hope Bryant has an older book called The Memo. And he's like, there are people that just haven't gotten the memo. I was that guy, Paula. I was totally that guy. I didn't get the memo. I didn't know crap. I'm like, really? How does all this work? And then we're expected to know it.

34:58We're expected to understand exactly how it works. I didn't know anything. And so here I am because I'm a good talker and because I'm taught these sales skills and because I know this stuff works from third parties. I can teach it to other people. I'm a good teacher. I'm teaching other people I get out of debt. But once again, I didn't think these rules applied to me. So I went and did my own thing and I'm just digging harder and harder and harder. Oh, and along the way, this is fun. Along the way, by the way, in my bank account, because I didn't have any money in my bank account, I would also do that with back of the envelope math and Bank of America every single time that I would do an overdraft, another 40 bucks.

35:35Yeah. And then there was an overdraft on the next transaction, the next transaction, next because I would then put$41 in, but they were already negating the next one. And so then there was another one and I had hundreds of dollars in overdraft fees all because I didn't get it. Completely my responsibility, by the way, I'm not shirking responsibility, completely my responsibility, but I didn't get the memo. I didn't know. I didn't get it. So that was the first thing I did was I got mad at Bill. Bill was not the right person. I needed people around me who were teachers. I needed people around me that would explain things to me like I was a third grader, even though I was explaining stuff to other people.

36:15I also needed to look at people who had walked this walk before because a lot of the people I worked with were just good with money and came from families where their parents talked about money and they just, you know, they immediately had the funds to get out of situations. I need somebody who had walked this walk before, those people around me. I needed to change my inner circle of people. And that was effective. And Bill was not that guy. But the second thing I did was the other smart thing that anybody would do when you owe a bunch of money to the IRS and you don't have it, you just don't file the tax return.

36:52So for two years, I did not file a tax return. And then the government caught up with me. And by the time all of these fees were done. And when you look at the, when you look at the amount, the amount of, so I didn't file that year. I didn't file the next year and I didn't file the third year. And I had not only the interest payments, but these monster penalties that the IRS assesses. So then the IRS writes threatening letter, threatening letter, threatening letter. And finally the house is going to come part was that I was going to, if they had put a lien on my property, which is what they were going to do, they were going to lock down my bank account, lock down my property.

37:37They were also going to garnish my wages. If they garnish my wages and the company found out, I couldn't have been a financial planner anymore. I would have been gone, completely gone. So I realized, and and you brought this up earlier. I was meeting with some people across town. I'm in a rusted out minivan because it's all I can afford. And I'm driving through the middle of nowhere and I run out of gas. And, um, and by the way, I parked this minivan around the corner cause I didn't want the, I didn't want, I didn't want my clients to know what I drove because my, my clients looked at me a certain way and, um, I didn't want them to know.

38:17Now I would drive that rusted out minivan as a badge of honor. I would totally do it, but not, not back then. So I walk like a mile to this mobile station. The dude doesn't want to give me the gas can because he thinks I'm going to steal it. I had found like 85 cents in change underneath the car seats on the floor and, you know, in the console between. And so I'm taking out pennies and nickels and dimes and, uh, and I put 85 cents worth of gas. The guy makes me give him my wallet, which I guess he could have my wallet. He could have my wallet. It was worthless plastic in it, my ID. I did give him the gas, gas came back and I drove home and I barely made it.

39:01I don't even remember how I made it home because 85 cents shouldn't have, shouldn't have made it, but it did. But that was the day I cried. And that was actually the day when I ran out of gas. I'm like, this is done. I'm done. I got to do things a different way. And I went home and Cheryl and I talked and that's when we began instituting what became now the weekly meeting that I talk about. It can't be monthly. It can't be quarterly. I see these money geeks that want to have a meeting twice a year with their spouse or their loved one. It's like some freaking Camp David summit. Your spouse doesn't want a Camp David summit.

39:34Your spouse wants you to connect and to do it fairly quickly, make it fun. So it's 20 minutes once a week. here's where we're at. The fighting, by the way, went away immediately when we started doing that. Immediately went away. We were on the same page. And then our habits started changing, partly because I knew that she was looking. I was about to say, we knew each other were looking. Let's call it the way it was. I knew she was looking. But our habits, my habits began to change. And then I went out and immediately found a CPA who would work with the IRS. and immediately, by the way, you know, it's funny when I, when I stopped not looking at it and I instead turned around Paula and face the IRS and said, okay, here's where we're at.

40:21Do you know how quickly this got taken care of? The IRS was amazing. The people we dealt with at the IRS were so compassionate and we're so good. And I was on a payment plan like that immediately. And had I done that two years earlier, instead of paying the stupid tax of all this, just, I'm not going to look at it and it'll go away and I'll find more money and I'll, I'll take care of it. Immediately when I had this woman that goes, nope, we're taking care of this right now. And then I went and I talked to a person at the firm that I was at, at American Express. I went to this manager and I told him and he immediately went to bat for me that, hey, here's what's going on.

41:06Here's where we're at. Here's what Joe's doing. and he told me, he said, hey, had you not come to me, you would have been gone. If I would have found this out from any other way but you, you'd be gone. And I certainly legally didn't have to tell him where I was at, but I just came clean with everybody. I came clean with everyone. I changed the people that I was learning from. I started taking my own advice that I could see was working for clients. And then that became the game. Let's get out of debt. Oh, and the other thing too was instead of avoiding the phone calls from creditors and playing that I'm going to pay, I'm going to pay whatever creditor calls me and is meanest, which is by the way, the game most people play, which is why credit, you know, these credit agency people are so mean.

41:52Um, and they are mean, oh my God, they're so mean. They are so disgusting. Let me, and they lie to you to get money. Um, cause I worked with so many of them, but then when I just stopped taking the call And I was in charge. I was like, nope, my job is not what I did yesterday. My job is what I'm going to do tomorrow. And the cool thing is I paid everybody back. I paid everybody back. And within five years, I had this great foundation. And what's funny is I went from being this guy digging really fast to a guy that was a rocket ship. Because when I stopped trying to take shortcuts and I instead built the emergency fund, stopped using the credit, started having weekly discussions in 20-minute intervals with my spouse about how we're spending money so we're on the same page, nothing really analytical.

42:48You know what I mean? just really, truly foundational stuff. And I divorced myself from my income and said, this is how much we need to spend. This is how much I met. Who cares how much I make? It doesn't matter about how much I make this, how much I want to spend. All of a sudden my net worth went from negative to zero to rock and fairly fast. And then later I sold my business and then it got really, really good. Wow. During that time when you came clean and you started, when you started coming clean and when you started really facing it and addressing it, did you have people, did you have advisors?

43:29Like I'm thinking like, like was, did you go to an accountant and say, Hey, I haven't filed taxes for the last two years or three years or however many. That was the first person I went to. Actually, it's funny before that I trusted a couple of my financial planner friends. I remember because it was specific. I have a great friend, Dan, Dan Postel, who's been on my show and is a great friend. I went to Dan because I really needed a car because that rusted out minivan was horrible. But to do that, I had to come clean about my entire situation. And that was his advice. You need to surround yourself with better people.

44:05You need people shining the mirror at you, showing you the mirror. This is what you should be doing. And this is, this is what you're actually doing. How did you, how did you, sorry to cut you off. How did you find those people? I was already going to networking meetings of professionals in different areas. And I knew a lot of good professionals in the area. So there was a woman named Sue Virgin. Sue, an amazing, still an amazing accountant in Detroit. Hey Sue, Hope you hear this. Sue is incredible. So I went to Sue and Sue thought, by the way, I'm Joe financial planner, shooter guy. And then I tell her what's going on.

44:45And she's like, we're not doing this anymore. Like she literally told me like I was a two-year-old, we're not doing this anymore, which is exactly what I knew was going to happen when I went and told Sue. So I went to the specific person that I thought would do what I needed, which was tell me what to do. She goes, we're not doing this anymore. You already know you can't be doing this now. First thing we're going to do is we're going to call the IRS. She literally in that first meeting puts the phone on speakerphone and calls the IRS. Wow. Wow. Here's him. He hasn't paid taxes in three years. What are we going to do?

45:16And the lady was so nice. It was not at all what I thought was going to happen. It sounds like it was good to have that, that person in the room to have sue the accountant in the room. It was. Well, and what's funny is that this is the thing, and this is why I'm such a advocate, as you know, Paula, for advisors. And especially in the fire community, we're so anti-advisor because they might cheat us. And my reply to that is your interview skills suck and you got to interview better because mine were, I just took a random recommendation by a guy who knew taxes named Bill. Bill's a fine accountant, but he wasn't for me, right i needed to interview better and once i knew all these people and i knew a lot about sue i knew specifically who to go to and sue delivered because it was the right person with the right attitude doing the right thing by me the advisor sue is not emotionally attached to any of this i'm incredibly intelligent but to have somebody in the room who's not emotionally attached to where i'm at who isn't going to have to go home and fight with a spouse or lie to a spouse or whatever, who's going to have trouble sleeping at night or the phone's ringing because she's not dealing with any of that.

46:27She has the same logical problem I have, but because of the fact that I'm emotionally invested in it, she's doing stuff I already knew I should be doing, but she has the guts to actually do it because her emotional involvement is zero. And I think that's who we all need. I have never heard a more compelling case for the importance of surrounding yourself with the right people, having a personal board of directors. I think it's the reason why you and I do these shows too, is to be that for other people. Certainly it's the reason why I do Stacking Benjamins is because I know there's a lot of people out there that haven't gotten a memo and it truly is the format of, and my goal here is not to you know, turn this into an advertisement for Stacking Benjamins.

47:16But I think that for people that know me and know my brand, that's why my brand is light. It's fun. It's relaxing. It's you can do this. We're not going to yell at you about your money. We're not going to do a Susie or Dave. And don't get me wrong. I think that, you know, for the right audience, they do, they do what they do. That's just not, that's just not me. And I was afraid somebody was going to yell at me about my money. That wasn't going to help me. Having people I knew were on my team and have my back that would go, yeah, Joe, you're better than this. You can do better than this. That's who was going to work for me.

47:51So do we want to boil that into an order of operations? Yes. Just briefly? Yes. Let's make that an order of operations. I think the first piece, Paul, in the order of operations is that you have to decide. And by the way, when I say decide, it can't be like, yeah, I'm not going to eat ice cream for the next two days. It's not that. It's that there was a switch that flipped in my head that was like, this is not happening anymore for me. I'm changing it. I'm changing it right now. That is a number one, your order of operations. Then number two is look at where your advice channels are coming from and the surround sound you're telling yourself.

48:24I need to, I actually have somebody in my life right now who every time I have a discussion with them, I doubt myself. So I have found myself limiting the amount of time I spend with them. And my life has been so much better. I really like them. They're a very nice person. I have limited my time with them. And I had to make moves like that at that time because I was spending too much time with spenders and ladder climbers and people that were everything to everybody else. I had to be true to me. So it wasn't just Sue. It was literally the people I surrounded myself with. And then I had to commit to not using the plastic and communicating about where my expenses were coming from, about what was important and what wasn't important.

49:11And the one thing I needed to avoid, by the way, I needed to avoid what I call kind of a red beans and rice existence. Because not just with me, but also with clients, when we tried to do that, people would come to me and they would be all excited about paying off their debt. And I certainly was at this point. After I met with Sue and we negotiated with the IRS, I walked out of that office. I hadn't done crap yet except negotiate a payment plan with the IRS. And I'm walking out like I own the universe. Right. I'm so excited. And we've done nothing. Everybody gets euphoric, but that euphoria doesn't last.

49:48It's like sugar. So you've got to be able to face the down days later when you're not so up. So because of that, you then have to create these, you have to create systems. There have to be systems to make sure that you, that the money goes in the right place. You can't trust yourself. You have to have these systems, which for us, weekly meeting, put enough money into the emergency fund that we can get through an emergency, stop using the plastic, live an all cash lifestyle. I certainly don't live a law cash lifestyle anymore, by the way, but I had to learn the value of a dollar and how expensive interest to somebody else truly is.

50:32So if I didn't have the cash, I wouldn't spend the money. You also have to know yourself a little bit during this, and this is not order of operations, but as an aside, there are people out there that say don't use plastic because of the fact that money spends easier. That's not me, Paula. Because I set up tracking systems, if I used plastic, I knew it was accountable. If I use cash, which studies tell you you spend less money with cash, I spend more. because I know I can blow this money and nobody's ever going to know. Right. Right. It's, it's, it's the old liar, Joe coming back. Right. So, uh, my wallet still today.

51:12Wow. Yeah. For, for those of you watching on YouTube, he's this wallet, I don't even need a wallet. It is, it is always empty. If there's any money in here, I will guarantee you it's still at 56 years old and I'm way different person now. It's gone in the next two days. It's gone. Every time I have cash, it's gone. I just blow cash. So I don't carry cash. So there's a little bit of this know yourself too. But then once I was all cash all the time and I built that emergency fund and we had those meetings, everything changed. I think that's your order of operations. But I think it starts sooner than just the, you know, most financial experts will say it starts with a thousand dollars in a savings account.

51:54It starts with the decision. That is such a mic drop that it starts with the decision. That's your mic drop moment. I have heard elements of your story, Joe, but I have never, I've never heard it like that. In how many years have I known you? 12? A long, a long time. Yeah. I think, I think we met - 12 or 13. Yeah. 12 or 13 years. I think we met in 2012. So yeah, I've, I've heard those elements. I'd heard about running out of gas. I'd heard about the 85 cents. Wow. I've never heard it. like that. I mean, that sounds truly transformative. That sounds harder. Wait, I have to ask, actually, were any drugs or alcohol involved in all of this?

52:41Were you drinking? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Drugs, no. Alcohol, sure. Yeah. Was that contributing to the problem? No, no, no. I probably drink as much now as I did then. But, but there were nights, there were nights then that, um, that certainly using, using, uh, beer wine as a, I've never been a hard alcohol drinker, but using beer wine as a, as an escape valve, like a lot of people will after a 40-hour week, like working for the weekend and you have a beer to relax. There were some times when I would just use alcohol to calm myself down. All right. But it doesn't sound as though that was amplifying the problem.

53:38No, not at all. Just my addiction to the dopamine hit. I think like a lot of people, I had a bunch of crap that I didn't need to own. Just stupid stuff. Find things on payments. Yeah. And then the IRS was truly the big kick. The credit card debt was already bad enough, but when the IRS problem hit, then it was rough. It was interesting to hear you use the word compassionate when you were describing the IRS agent that you spoke with. I've never heard the word IRS and the word compassionate in the same sentence before. After that day, I started calling the IRS for my clients. And Tina on my team, who you know, who also worked for me when I was an advisor, she will also tell you about us calling the IRS.

54:28And I have rarely found the IRS representatives to not be compassionate. Yeah, it is. It is for the people. There's anybody listening here that's an IRS, one of those phone people. God bless you because you're hearing all kinds of crap all the time, I'm sure. And the way that the experience I've had working with the IRS on a personal level, of course, that was a long time ago. But luckily, I haven't talked to the IRS in about almost 20 years. But back then, just amazing, Paula. Wow. Thank you to all of the frontline IRS agents who do their job with compassion and heart and humility and grace. And thank you, Joe, for sharing.

55:19We're going to take a break right now to hear from the sponsors who make this show possible. And when we come back, we got some great feedback from many of you after we aired that behind the scenes episode that we recorded in Boise, Idaho. Oh, that was so fun. That was amazing. Oh, that was great. And so we will follow up on that and share some more behind the scenes. That's coming up next. When you walk into a Burlington, you're walking into amazing prices and great gifts. That's main character energy. Because at Burlington, the holiday savings aren't the only things turning heads. Discover quality finds and perfect presents for everyone on your list, even those who are hard to shop for.

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56:53Welcome back. Joe, let's talk a little bit about some of our decision-making processes, how the sausage gets made. I love that. You know this is my favorite thing to talk about. No, let's talk about my debt problem more. Well, you know, the thing is when you take the factory tour, when you take the M &M's factory tour or the Guinness factory tour, and you understand what really goes into developing a product, I think it helps you understand that pint of Guinness or that bag of M &M's with greater depth. And so for people, I guess, who are aspiring beer makers or candy manufacturers, that resonates.

57:38And so we heard from a lot of you after we did our behind the scenes in Boise, particularly from those of you who are interested in starting digital footprints of your own, that you enjoyed hearing some of the behind the scenes discussion. I used to think myself, by the way, before we had podcast, before I had a podcast, I was already consuming a lot of podcasts and enjoyed the format. But I always thought people just kind of turn on the microphone and go like the amount of behind the scenes there is in the first blows me away still today. Yeah, exactly. There's so much behind the scenes. But when we actually show up at the microphone, the amount of work that's already been done just to get to turn on the microphone is not at all what I thought it was.

58:26Yeah, exactly. It's an enormous workload. You got a question about, as an example, the ad reads. Yeah. So I got this question. This came in on Instagram earlier today. And it was a great question. So I wanted to share it with all of you. So wonderful. She wrote to me this morning and said, could I ask you a question about your sponsors? Something has been feeling off about some of the ad spots. And I wrote back and said, of course. Yes, I would love to hear feedback. Please ask, what have you been noticing? She wrote back and said, thanks so much for your openness to discussing this. I was curious if you personally use and like every single sponsor or only some of them.

59:05I find it very compelling when a podcaster shares products and tools that they personally have vetted and like, and it makes them feel trustworthy to me. You also seem as the person with the highest integrity I have ever, ever, ever experienced. Well, three evers. Wow. No pressure there. No one is more deserving of public trust than you. Wow. That's very flattering. Thank you. I love the ads that you mentioned about Monarch Money and Quince. I've learned about these from you and definitely consider these to be valuable resources. However, there are other product ads that sound like very stock scripts, and I don't have confidence that these are honest endorsements in the same way and it makes me feel hesitant?

59:49That's an excellent question. So I want to walk you behind the scenes through our vetting process as we vet sponsors because there are an enormous number of sponsors that we turn down and there are sponsors where we really do a lot of back and forth negotiation on whether or not I will give a personal endorsement to the sponsor. Basically, this is our process. So here is our process. There are three types of sponsor ad reads that you are going to hear on the Afford Anything podcast. And Joe, I'm curious to know if you have the same process in stacking Benjamins. Okay. Number one, there are the products, the obvious home runs that I use and I love and I'm actually kind of obsessed with to the point where it's a problem.

1:00:38Quince, oh my, I legit have a spending problem on quince. Like it's ridiculous. My closet is slowly – as old clothes leave and get replaced by newer clothes, my closet is slowly turning into just the Quince Depot. It is – I mean, like somebody needs to block that website from me. So that's for me a no-brainer. And I actually learned about Quince when they came and they asked if they could sponsor the show. I had never heard of them before. And so they sent me two complimentary sweaters. And when I wore those, I was like, damn, this is good. So then I bought two more. And then that started what really has turned into a buying spree that just needs to stop because it's getting out of hand.

1:01:41Quince. It'll mess up your money. that's the best endorsement on a money show so good so good you'll blow your budget

1:01:55it's true that's how much I like it I like it to the point where where it really is just it's kind of blowing the clothing budget so quince.com slash Paula if you too want a spending problem You know? That's the best. So that's a no-brainer. Monarch money, same thing. We had a whole episode, we answered a listener question about how monarch money can be kind of addictive. It's like, okay, I've removed TikTok from my phone, but I still have monarch. And it becomes one of those addictive apps that you're checking all the time and you're like, I got to take this off my phone. Okay. You know? So, yeah, so those are the home runs.

1:02:42So, okay, that's one of three categories of sponsors. Another category of sponsor are products that I use personally, but their team wants me to read the script verbatim. So I either have zero leeway to go off script based on the terms and conditions of the contract, or there's an enormously defined one or two sentences where I'm allowed to freestyle, but the rest of it has to be verbatim script. And we do know that ahead of time. Yeah, we do. We know that's what we're getting into. And usually these happen in industries that are heavily regulated. And if we say the wrong thing, then they get a monster fine.

1:03:30And I could actually give you an example. We have Peter Maluka and he co-wrote a book with Tony Robbins about money a few years ago. Peter Maluka, one of the biggest financial planners in the United States. Paula, he had a radio guy locally who was a client of his who during the ad read just said, and I use him personally and I love him. That is a personal endorsement, not allowed. Peter Malouk got a monster fine and Peter Malouk didn't even do anything wrong. The DJ on the local Kansas City radio station just had this glowing experience and wanted to share it. He didn't know that there were laws against that.

1:04:09So there in some industries, there are very clear fences where they're like, you can't say anything but these words. Right. You have to say these words. There was one particular sponsor, and I probably can't say who it is, but it's a sponsor that's currently running that you're hearing, that I went one word off script. And it was one of those inconsequential words like even or only. It's one of those kind of filler words that you sometimes throw into a sentence. Fortunately, their team wanted to review the ad spot before it went out. they reviewed the spot they sent it back to me for a re-record yeah just just for literally a filler word yeah that doesn't change the meaning of the set I think it was like just or even or it was just one of those maybe it was like I don't know it was one of those filler words that has no impact on the meaning whatsoever but they were that strict about the script being read verbatim so that's the second category that you hear and if it sounds like a stock script.

1:05:18It's because it has to be. It is funny. So one sponsor that we have, I've heard this sponsor on a comedian's show. And what's interesting that I'm going to start experimenting with, because as you know, Paula, we have a lot of comedy on Stacking Benjamins. He says the exact words, but he applies some enunciation that makes it pretty funny.

1:05:47And it's so good. It is so good. And I don't know that I can say who the sponsor is, but I think we're going to do that. The feedback that we got when we inquired about that was, yeah, they love it. Yeah. But because it isn't the brand managers that don't want you to not venture off, it's the lawyers. The lawyers say, you have to say these exact words. So for this one heavy regulated sponsor, this comedian does some hilarious stuff. Will you text me right now and tell me who that is? Look, Joe is texting me while we're in the middle of recording this show. That's where we've gotten to. I'm going to tell you right now not only who the sponsor is, but who the comedian is.

1:06:39Yeah. How about that? Wow. That's funny. I was, I was, yeah. And you know, that sponsor is pretty strict. Yeah. I know that sponsor very well. Yes. Anyway, I did something on a recording we did yesterday, just a little bit playing around with that. Or a couple of days ago when we did our round table, you heard me kind of play around with just a little bit of it. Okay. All right. I may do, I may do more of that, but anyway. I might get a little creative on that one then. All right. Well, let me tell you about some others. Like, you know, because I know you did this too, Paula, we have some pushback.

1:07:13The biggest sponsor, and I know they're going to be A-OK with this, the biggest sponsor that we have at Stacking Benjamins, one of our two biggest sponsors, is Navy Federal Credit Union. And I'm very excited about Navy Federal because we have a lot of military members. OG was in the military, as I mentioned earlier. I went to military college. Man, if we can support good organizations that support our military, then yes, I love Navy Federal. But Navy Federal has had us do reads about their credit card, which has reward points. And hey, you can reward yourself by using our credit card. You just heard my story, Paul.

1:07:50Yeah. Like the last thing I want to do is get people in trouble. I also know it's a good credit card. So we just pushed back on Navy Federal. I said, I will talk about credit cards and rewards if I say, hey, there was a time in my life when I couldn't pay off the bill in full every month. You will mess yourself up if you try to go after Navy Federal's rewards. You will mess yourself up. But if you're good with money, like I learned to be over time, then why not? They let me put that in the ads. And once they let me put that in their ads to ignore the rewards, don't do something stupid with your money.

1:08:31Maybe like Navy Federal even better because of that exchange. They're like, heck yeah. Yes, please. Nice. Nice. Yeah. And that actually that segues perfectly into the third category of sponsor we have. Well, can I say one other thing? Because I was just talking to the, we affectionately call them the overlords. We love these people at Westwood One, but we affectionately call them the overlords. Teresa laughs about it every time she hears me say, I got to talk to my overlord boss about this. They are the network that exclusively represent us for ads. Yeah, that we're both on. Yeah, that we're both on.

1:09:05With some other fine brands, the ladies at Brown Ambition on our network. Yeah, Bigger Pockets is on the network. Bigger Pockets on our network. Yeah. Yeah. But there is a brand that I have been negotiating hard with. And when I had my meeting with the Westwood One team a few days ago, they said, Brittany on their team said, this is funny because I was having the exact same conversation with you, with your pushback that Paula was giving me. She's like, you and Paula were giving me the exact same pushback on this potential sponsor for both of our shows. Wow. Text me again, Joe.

1:09:45This one. Ah, yeah. Yep. Yep. I thought it might be that one. I was like, I don't. And hey, I will do this. I'm not doing that. Yeah. Anyway, I don't know if they're going to be a sponsor or not. They're still talking about it. Same, same. We haven't approved them yet. Yeah. You and I kind of had the same thing. We're like, I will talk about this. Yeah. Right. Anyway. Right. That's funny because Joe, you and I have never discussed this particular sponsor. It's funny. Independently, we had exactly the same objections and now we are having exactly the same to go. We literally, prior to this recording that you all are hearing right now, we have never discussed this.

1:10:24So that's funny that we both came, it's telling that we both came to precisely the same mode of action on that. For some of these ad reads that we have, they are products that I haven't used or they don't apply to me. That's the third category. But I have fully vetted the crap out of them. And I'm like, if I was in the market for this, I can stand behind reading this ad. I can't do a personal endorsement because it doesn't apply to me. But you know what? I'm 100 % behind this. Joe, you just stole my third category, right? You're welcome. So yeah, category one are the companies like Monarch Money and Quince that I not only use, but I'm obsessed with.

1:11:12And I will be heartbroken if they ever leave me. Quince, please, I love you. Category number two are companies that I also use, but I'm not allowed to deviate from the script. So it's going to sound like a stock script because that is the contractual requirement and that's usually due to legal regulation. And then category number three are products that I personally don't have a need to use, but I've vetted the heck out of them. I stand by them. I would use them if I ever had the need to. And I refuse to do a personal endorsement. And that's a big part of the negotiation that goes on because when they bring those brands to me, I will say, I'm only willing to do this if I do not have to give it a personal endorsement.

1:12:04So for you as the audience, as a listener, if you hear an ad read, if I'm doing a personal endorsement, it's because I've actually used it. If I'm not doing a personal endorsement, it's because I have not personally used it. And I'll give you an example actually of a former sponsor. We have a former sponsor, which is a language learning app called Babbel. Through Babbel, there are 14 languages that you could learn. I have not personally used Babbel. And so when my ad agency, and I think this was before I was represented by Westwood One, when they came to me and said, are you willing to have Babbel as a sponsor?

1:12:54I said, you know what? First, let me vet them. Give me some time. And then I vetted them, read a lot of the reviews, talked to people who had used it, had conversations with people who had used it. I spent some time really digging into it. They seemed fantastic for anyone who wants to learn one of the 14 languages that they have on offer. And so I went back to my agency and said, I've personally never used it, so I can't give them a personal endorsement. What I can say is that Erin, who used to be the chief sanity officer of Afford Anything, she was the very first W-2 full-time employee of Afford Anything with health insurance, right?

1:13:43Our very, very first W-2 employee. Erin used Babbel when she wanted to learn Dutch because she had just married a man who lived in the Netherlands. And Erin used it and she wrote me. I was like, Erin, can you please write me, do a write-up of your experience and send it to me. Erin sent me a three-page write-up detailing her experience. And so in that ad spot, I couldn't talk about my experience because I'm not learning a language, so I haven't used it. But what I said in that ad spot was, Erin, who works on our team, here is her experience. And then I talked about Erin's experience. So that's the third category.

1:14:27I actually, on Stacking Benjamins, and you may not do this, Paula, but for people that listen to other shows, there is yet another category. And that is an area that in the business they call remnant advertising. And I'm not sure if you do this or not. Oh, you're talking about non-host red ads. Yeah. If there are slots that are open for whatever reason from time to time on a show, there may be some ads that appear on our show that on Stacking Benjamins anyway. I don't have any affiliation with this company. I know nothing about them. The way those ads work is companies will apply for these ad spots.

1:15:04and what hosts do through the people that create them is there are categories that I say, you can't do this category, you can't do this category, you can't do this category. And it's not specific brands. It's only categories. And I found that when we first signed up for those at Stacking Benjamins, I was not careful enough. I thought I was careful. and here's something funny now, not funny at the time, but we, OG and I fully endorse that neither one of us can stand Robinhood. We rail on Robinhood nonstop. We talk about how we dislike this company so much. We talk about why we dislike it right at the end of that ad, Paula.

1:15:49I see where this is going. Right at the end of that segment, an ad for Robinhood. That's funny. It was horrible. I was so embarrassed. So there is another category where, you know, you're like, every once in a while, I would say about twice a year, some advertiser, I get somebody texts me and goes, Hey, I didn't know so-and-so was an advertiser on your show. I'm like, yeah, they're not. Yeah. So to clarify the three categories that I just talked about, those are all referring to what are known as host red ads, which means the host, me or Joe, one of the two of us does the ad read. And that's different from this other category that are essentially commercials.

1:16:35But I think the audience is smart enough to understand if you are watching - Oh, mine wasn't. Joe, I think the word somebody used was, it seems disingenuous. When you rip Robin Hood and then you take their money. I'm like, yes, it is. It's like if you're watching, what's it? Name a television show. I can't think of one that's running right now. It's like a show that's on TV that has the, okay, The Simpsons, The Simpsons, right? If you're watching The Simpsons and then it breaks for commercial, you know that The Simpsons aren't affiliated with the commercial, right? If you're watching - Man, I hope so.

1:17:14Right. So, yeah. So the three categories that I've described, those are categories of ad reads that I do where you hear my voice. And that's different from commercials that run where you're not hearing my voice at all, which the network handles. But you know what? We, Joe, made the opposite mistake as you. We locked down way too many categories, far too many categories. So we basically just took that whole list and made every category by default a no. And then we went through and then manually said yes to just a couple choice few categories. and the end result was that we basically weren't running any programmatic ads and so then we would have episodes where I would say we're going to break for commercial, you know, we're going to take a break to hear from the sponsors and then you'd hear the musical outro and then it would go right back into the show again, right?

1:18:16So there would be no ads that ran at all and then we would get our statement at the end of the month and I was like, this is not even enough to make payroll. How am I going to make payroll? Yeah. We at Afford Anything, we take pride in making sure that our team is really well compensated. We offer health benefits. We offer retirement. We offer health and retirement. How am I going to cover that if programmatic is that locked down? So we had to go through and manually, we still kept everything at default, no, but we opened up a lot more because, yeah, because we made the opposite mistake and it like put us into a payroll bind.

1:19:02Wow. And this, by the way, that happened when I was at Columbia, which was a time when we weren't launching the course because usually any gaps that we have in our budget, the enrollment for the course, the revenue that comes in from that can cover our payroll expenses. Fill the gap. Yeah, it can fill the gap. But while in that year that I took off to go to grad school, that was no longer the case. We weren't launching the course because I wasn't going to be able to give it my time and attention. So we no longer had the course to fill the gap and then we no longer can make payroll. So whoops. So welcome to the behind the scenes of running a podcast.

1:19:42Oh, Joe, last thing that I want to say, because, you know, we've talked for quite a while about ads. But the last thing that I want to say before we wrap is, as you might have noticed, there is an election coming up. Oh, really? Yeah. I believe it's sometime this fall. If you're voting the way I like, it's November 6th. If you're not, it's November 7th. Wait, I thought it was. Wait, genuinely, I thought it was the fifth. Because I thought it was Guy Fawkes Day. Remember, remember the 5th of November. That's a shout out to all of our British audience. I did that off the top of my head. So I probably missed it for everybody.

1:20:15Wait, wait. Okay. When I'm Googling, when is election day? Yeah, it is. Remember, remember the 5th of November. It is Guy Fawkes Day. That's so funny. I was making everybody. You're making everyone. Joe is the, what's the opposite of the get out the vote campaign? Get in, get in, get away from the vote. Stop taking yourself so seriously. Nobody wants your vote. Do you think anybody wants your vote? It's the opposite of a voter turnout campaign. Voter turn in campaign. I can't figure out why nobody's voting. All right. Well, I've gotten questions from several people saying, are you going to talk about this?

1:20:55Are you going to endorse anyone? The answer is no. We very intentionally do not address politics on the Afford Anything podcast. And here's the reason why. I love House of the Dragon, that show on HBO, the Game of Thrones prequel. Did you say you like a TV show? I do. Yeah. I love House of the Dragon. And I listen to House of the Dragon podcasts and I watch House of the Dragon YouTube channels. And what I enjoy about being in those communities is that it is a place where red and blue come together, where I don't know if the people that I'm interacting with are Democrats or Republicans. I don't know what their political leanings are.

1:21:46All I know are their feelings about Westeros and dragons. And it is in a time that is so polarized where there is dehumanization that happens between people on different sides of the spectrum. There are very few places that you can go to, both geographically as well as online spaces, both physical spaces and online spaces. There are very few spaces that you can go to that truly are politically blended. And I won't afford anything to be that community, the one in which your neighbors, your community members, your fellow comrades are every stripe of the political aisle. Because that's how people on opposite sides of the political spectrum can see one another as human.

1:22:46And that is a crucial, crucial element. That unification is such a crucial element of keeping America, America, you know, of keeping us united. We don't do it either on stacking Benjamins. And my take is congruent but different, which is that I feel like the role of financial planning is not to deal with prognostication or what you want to have happen next. I think that's what elections are all about. I think that's what election coverage is about. I think we should definitely vote so you have a say in getting your way, what you think would be best for the country. But that's not what financial planning is.

1:23:27And too often, when I was a financial planner, Paula, I would end up in these conversations. Well, if so-and-so gets elected, you know what's going to happen. This is going to happen. We should. No, you don't do crap with your portfolio. You don't react. You don't react to the news. You don't react to current events. That never works out. You set your game plan. You respond in a way when things change, when the law actually changes. you then respond appropriately. And I think there's a big difference between respond and react. And so for us to get involved in where in election, you know, in election stuff and to endorse candidates isn't our true mission.

1:24:11It's dealing with what the reality is, is our real mission. So your position is stay inside of your immediate circle of control. Yeah. And there are so many of us that are so excited. We're on social media all day right now, and we've got so many things we can control that we're letting go just so we can scream and yell at people we don't know. Take the reins and do the thing that will affect your life. That's what I hope people do. Certainly go vote. And I'm not telling people not to vote. I'm just saying that. You kind of are with your November 6th, November 7th. I was so close. So close. To be clear, it's November 5th.

1:24:51Remember, remember the 5th of November. No, November 5th. Probably a better day. But I'm sorry, Joe, I cut you off. You're not telling people not to vote. Yes, I'm not telling people not to vote. Please, please go vote. Just you're not going to hear us endorsing candidates or one political affiliation. Right. Rather than get into a social media shouting match, take that time to sharpen your skills so you can start a side hustle. Take that time to review your budget and find the subscription that you're paying for that you can cut. Take that time to do something that will improve your life. And participate in the process also.

1:25:28Definitely, definitely do so. But don't dehumanize people who don't think like you do. I find it so sad when people say, I don't talk to that family member anymore because that family member votes in a different way or votes for the other party. So I won't afford anything to be the place where we are truly unified. All right, Joe, we have done it one more time. Where can I think people know where they can find you? The Stacking Benjamins podcast. I'll do the shout out for your for your show, which is amazing. I do have an episode for you, which one? Because on November 5th of last year, we did a special episode.

1:26:10What an amazing episode. It was a special episode with a financial planner who's with Fidelity Investments. She's a rep from Fidelity Investments, big name company, a financial analyst from T. Rowe Price, and behavioral economist Bradley Klontz. We had a special roundtable, which was called Investing in an Election Year. And that is episode number 1435. And what's funny is I was listening to episode 1435 just the other day, and I swear it sounds like we could have made it today because these people's advice is so spot on about what to do and what not to do when it comes to investing in an election year.

1:26:54So if anybody's having this trip, no, I really need to do something. go listen to stacking benjamin's 1435 it's a great discussion from people obviously big name companies and big name behavioral economists who know and have looked at the history of um of what historically has been what you should do and shouldn't do all right well thank you so much for tuning in if you enjoyed today's episode please share it with a friend or a family member subscribe to our newsletter afford anything.com slash newsletter and come check us out on youtube youtube.com slash afford anything. Thank you so much for being part of this community.

1:27:28I'm Paula Pant. I'm Joe Solcija. And we will meet you in the next episode.