Ask Paula: Student Loan Deferment HACK – How Christina Saved $60,000 in Interest

28:08My husband is currently working for him while he is in between jobs and has worked in all corporate positions previous to this. The small company is close to our house, a 20-minute drive versus 35-45-minute train ride to the city for the corporate position, but he does go in five days a week. The man he works for at the small company asked my husband, quote-unquote, what would it take for my husband to stay and work for him? For years, my husband has talked about working at a small business and has always wanted to run a small business. He's interested in staying at the small business versus going back to corporate.

28:44My husband and I are trying to figure out how to come up with a salary number if he was to work at the small company. How do we go about comparing two offers and what other things besides salary should we be thinking about that he would be getting at a corporate company versus a small? For instance, the small company wouldn't have a matching 401k, which to me feels like losing free money for retirement. But I guess that is something we could compensate for in a total salary package for the small company offer. We are in our mid to late 30s, no kids, but are trying, have a mortgage, no debt. We have a pretty healthy 401k and investment account.

29:20From our expenses point of view, I have the amount he would need to make so we can live comfortably and be making our savings goal. We're trying to think of the total package and any benefits we might not have considered. Any advice or questions we should think about are greatly appreciated. I think my husband feels conditioned to take a corporate position, but this opportunity seems like it could be what he's been looking for. Thank you in advance, and we appreciate any advice and help that we can get from you. Questions like this are my favorite question. Yes, same. And I've got some strong words for my answer.

29:53Joe, do you mind if I roll full steam ahead? It is your show, Paula. So why don't you roll into it? I don't think you have to ask my permission. So, Mary, I'm going to say something intentionally shocking, meant to provoke shock. Oh, yes. Oh, do it. Yes. Salaries are for losers. Boom. You heard it here first. All right. What do I mean by that? Obviously, I'm being tongue in cheek. Nobody, almost nobody gets rich from a salary. And if you're thinking about a salary, you're thinking about being a clock puncher. Salary does not matter. Don't ever do anything for salary. And if you're negotiating salary, if like that's where your head is at, that is the mindset of punching the clock and not going very far.

30:37This idea does not just come from me. It also comes from Mr. Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan Chase. He talks about this frequently, where he talks about, you know, any advice that he would give to any young person, including his own kids, is do not ever worry about your salary. You need enough to live, right? You need enough to make sure that you aren't in a bad financial position. You need enough to pay your bills, to keep a roof over your head, to put food on the table, to keep the lights on to put clothes on your back, blah, blah, blah. Once you have that, your salary becomes moot, frankly.

31:16It's a moot point. What matters from that point forward is your ability to take part in upside gains. So if there is a profit share or if there is any type of, you said that this guy wants to retire in a few years and he's potentially looking for somebody to pass the reins onto, any type of ownership stake or ownership potential, that's the money. I mean, frankly, if you can support both of you, and this is extreme, if you can support both of you on your salary, I would go to him and say, tell you what, buddy, give me a salary of$1 per year, but give me this incredible profit share or this incredible vested ownership stake.

32:01I'll work for$1 a year. I don't need salary. I want the upside. Fabulous. Bam. There it is, Bella. That's it. And it shocks a lot of people, right? Because we're conditioned to think a salary is how you are compensated. If you are thinking about salary anywhere above and beyond the amount that you need in order to have a, you know, pay your bills and put aside some money for retirement or create a rainy day fund, right? If you're thinking about salary, anything above and beyond what you actually need, then you're thinking small. and you're thinking in a way that that's not going to grow. Sure.

32:37Which leads to my much less, uh, bam point, which is rather than do the difficult math around two things, one of which you want to do and one of which you don't want to do instead, take the one you want to do and see what it takes to make it work. Because life is about doing what you want to do, not about doing what you think you should do. So I think if I start from that parameter, It sounds like what they want to do is work for the small company. Yeah, that was very clear from the way that she asked that question. The only thing you need to know then, to your point earlier, and I won't say this as fluently as Jamie Dimon is, what does it take to put bread on the table?

33:17And the one thing I would be clear about here, though, and this is much more tactical, Paul, than what you're talking about, I want to make it clear with that business owner why you are taking this opportunity because you're looking at it as big picture opportunity. And I'll tell you this one personally, we had an episode a couple episodes ago where you talked very openly about your divorce and about what you learned from that process. I learned that when I sold my business, and I don't talk about this very much, when I sold my business, the guy I sold it to told me that there was an opportunity for me to possibly take over this much bigger firm.

33:56I wasn't going into that for that reason. I was going into it for a lot of different reasons, but I thought that was the case. But Paula, we never, ever, ever really had a much bigger chat about that. Imagine my surprise though, three months after I joined this bigger firm, after selling it into that firm, that his daughter comes in and I realized very quickly that even though his daughter has absolutely no financial planning experience, no idea what that's going on, the chance of Joe ever running this firm. is zero zero but that was not what we talked about over beers while we were discussing me joining this much bigger firm so if you can get that contractually that's fantastic now you probably won't get it contractually at the beginning because he doesn't know you well enough you you haven't worked together enough but there has to be some sort of a runway for me to get that and And that runway should be a runway that's in writing and very clear that this is what we're headed to.

34:59We are headed toward transfer of ownership here. We're headed toward me being the successor. I want to get as much of that as I possibly can in stone so that you don't make a mistake. Luckily for me, Paula, I wasn't even really concentrating on that. My goal actually was to sell the firm and get out of financial planning completely and go become a high school teacher and a track coach. I had made enough money and I was ready to enjoy this other thing with some time. And obviously that changed. Instead, I made it to afford anything, which was way better than being a teacher and a track coach. But had I really been as invested as Mary seems to be in this company, if I've been as invested and that was a big piece of my decision making, I want to make sure that that's as in writing as I can get it.

35:47Right. Exactly. And there are a lot of different ways that you can do this. So it might be that immediately, you know, it would be uncommon in year one for an owner of a small company to start giving you a percentage of the company. Sure. But if the owner is interested in transferring the company upon retirement, there could be some type of metric related benchmark where if your husband reaches XYZ performance metric. Yeah. That might be one way to do it. For people that know any type of like simple coding, like just if then scenarios, if this happens, then that will happen. Right, exactly. And you can do a bunch of those.

36:26And remember, it could either be an ownership conversation or it can be a profit share conversation. And those are very much not the same thing, right? Ownership refers to ownership. It refers to who actually owns an interest in the company. Profit sharing is simply a percentage of the net revenues. And frankly, those aren't mutually exclusive either. You could and you probably should negotiate both. Again, that's if the owner is interested in transfer of ownership upon retirement. I wouldn't be bringing it. If she had said, oh, the owner is like 30, right? There's no way in hell I'd be bringing this up because there's absolutely no 30-year-old in their right mind who, if they believe in their company, who would ever be interested in doing something like this.

37:11Anyone who does, I would be very suspicious that they don't actually believe. Really? I do disagree with that. When you see some of these fintech founders, and I've been lucky to be able to interview a lot of these fintech founders, their goal when they create the company is build to sell, right? Yeah, it's build to sell. It's not build to transfer from zero money to their employees. It's built to sell to have a big exit. Yeah, but it's not going to be, Paula, it won't be a$0 transfer to this. And if Mary thinks it's going to be a$0 transfer to her husband, she is sadly mistaken. there will be a buy sell agreement in place where you're going to help this person exit by buying the company from them now you can use company assets to do that but it's still paula could still be at 30 35 a build to sell scenario if you've got a founder is 30 years old who's like you know what in the next five years paula i want to transfer this to you by the time i'm 35 let's build it together and then you own it long term and i don't yeah that makes zero sense it can still happen.

38:09It doesn't make zero sense to me. Yeah. I mean, if I can sell it to somebody else and go do something else. If you can sell it, if you can sell it, sure. But I mean, a person who's completely unqualified to buy, who doesn't have the assets, it's not going to be a big exit. I would be incredibly suspicious of any - How do I know that her husband isn't qualified to buy? We don't know what he does at this corporate job. I mean, we don't know if he's the dude that could run the company next and the owner is tired and doesn't want to see it through to the next, the next, uh, you know. Right. But, but if, if he doesn't have the underlying assets to make a big purchase, right, nobody wants to use their own company as collateral for the sale.

38:48Mary's, Mary's yelling at her device right now. You guys are off on a tangent.

38:55Mary, to get back to your question, the big takeaway is stop being brainwashed into thinking about salary, because that's what small thinkers do. Strong words, very strong words. But that is what I believe. If you're thinking about salary, you're thinking small. Better to work for a buck a month or a buck a year and capture the profits, capture the upside. For everybody else who's listening, to be clear, what I'm talking about when I say that is very specifically when it comes to small businesses. You know, if you're working for a Fortune 500 company, as a rank and file employee, any payout that you get is going to be heavily diluted, right?

39:35But if you're working for a small business, the whole point of being in a small business is to be able to participate in the upside. A big Fortune 500 company can give you, they have economies of scale, so they can give you a break room with a foosball table, right? And they can give you on-site dry cleaning and a company holiday party and all of these things that a small business can't. But you trade that away when you move to a small company so that you can be in a setting with more flexibility, with more autonomy and with more upward potential. So essentially you're trading away a salary lifestyle for really an entrepreneurial lifestyle.

40:26no entrepreneur is ever thinking about salary ever i had a mentor tell me once that there's two doors in life there's the security door and the opportunity door and the person who reaches for the security door gets neither ding ding ding ding ding ding ding yep that's good i might tweet that or x.com that or whatever it's called these days as long as you quote me all right done done Done and done. Done and done. There are, what did you say, Joe? There's two doors, security and opportunity, and the one who reaches for the security door gets neither. Two doors in life. Security door and opportunity door.

41:09There are two doors in life. All right. Being tweeted as we speak. So thank you, Mary, for the question. Best of luck with what I hope is this transition to this small business.

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44:38Joe, our final question today comes from an anonymous caller. Paula, you don't say. I do say. Well, okay then. When I was answering Mary's question, I told her, Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan Chase, I told her about his philosophy about salary. which is, you know, don't worry about your salary, worry about what you're going to learn. You know who else says this? Actually, Robert Kiyosaki in the book Rich Dad Poor Dad also says the same thing. Don't worry about your salary, worry about what you're going to learn. It's good advice for life, especially for people who are at the beginning of their careers or who are about to change careers or who are thinking about going back to grad school, but they don't want to bear the opportunity cost of missing out on having a salary for a couple of years It's not about one or two years.

45:30It's not about that. It's about what you're going to learn. It's about your upward potential. It's about... Anyway, point is, in honor of that idea and in honor of some of the people who have given a voice to that idea, let's name this caller Jamie. I thought we should have named him Homer Simpson because I'm sure Homer Simpson must have said it. Oh, huh. Well, Homer Simpson is the master of side hustles and the master of having fun at that muddled middle, which goes to Christina's question. You know what? Let's do that. Oh, we're bringing in a relief pitcher. Let's merge the two together. This is Jamie Homer.

46:11Jomer. Jomer. This is Jomer. Hi, Paula and Joe. My wife, toddler, daughter, and I will be moving in about a year, and we're trying to decide on the best option for buying our next home. My wife and I are both 35. Our combined income at the time of the move will be roughly$150 ,000, increasing yearly to$190 ,000, then$220 ,000, and remain generally steady after that. We currently have about$350 ,000 in retirement accounts,$300 ,000 in mutual funds and savings, and one long-term rental property. This generates about$2 ,400 yearly in revenue above paying its mortgage and has about$275 ,000 in equity.

46:58We own the house that we're currently living in, which we would like to turn into a rental also when we move. If we do that, it will generate about$2 ,400 yearly in revenue above paying the mortgage also, and it currently has about$180 ,000 in equity. Ideally, we'd like to make this next move our last move for a long time, and we'll need to spend around$600 ,000 on the next house. To generate the down payment for that home loan, should we sell one or both homes or sell some investments? If so, how much would you recommend planning on using for the down payment? Or is there another option that we haven't thought of?

47:37Thanks. Jomer, thank you for the question. Why? His name is Jomer. I'm sorry. Jomer, thank you for the question. First of all, congrats on everything that you've built, on the increasing salaries, on the fact that you've got one and soon to have two rental properties under your belt. Big congrats on all of that, as well as on the clarity of your plan. That was one thing that really struck me as I heard you talk. Not only have you set things up well, but you have a very clear idea of exactly where you want to go next, exactly when you want to get there, how much that will cost, and what trade-offs might need to be made in order to facilitate that.

48:20So let's talk about how to put together the funds for the$600 ,000 home that you want to purchase, your forever home. A couple of things strike me right away. Now, you mentioned that your rental, one of your rentals gets$2 ,400 a year, so$200 a month above the mortgage payment. That instantly set off like ding, ding, ding, alarm bells in my head because sometimes people use the phrase mortgage payment colloquially when what they actually mean is mortgage payment plus all of their operating costs. I'm hoping that's what you meant. If what you meant was literally the mortgage payment is X and the gross monthly rent is X plus 200 per month, right?

49:05That is a concern because that$200 per month is not going to equate to actual profit. Once you factor - You're probably underwater. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Once you factor for vacancies, once you factor for repairs, maintenance, major capital expenditures, once you factor for all of that, that 200 is going to be over a long-term aggregate average. It's going to be gobbled up. Now, there will be minor variation. There might be a small run of a few months, maybe. If you're lucky, there might even be a run of a year or two or three when you're up, right? But over the long term, that 200 a month is not profit.

49:47it. So my question back to you is when you said that this property makes$200 a month or$2 ,400 a year above the mortgage payment, should I take your words at face value? Did you literally mean the mortgage payment or did you mean above expenses? That's going to be the differentiating factor. If you literally meant, if I take your words at face value and you literally meant the mortgage payment, that's big red flag there. But if it's 200 a month above expenses, including an estimate for a long-term vacancy, CapEx, repairs, et cetera, cool. Then we're good. Then that's a great return, actually, and you should keep it.

50:30What was the other one that hit you right away? So the other thing is he talked about how much equity he had in the homes, and then he talked about the cash flow that the homes were creating. But without knowing the value of the homes, I don't know what the cap rate on those homes is. And so, Jomer, what I would suggest to you is you calculate the cap rate and the way that you do that is net operating income divided by the price that you paid for the home equals, and it's going to give you something that is expressed as a decimal point, So then multiply that decimal point by 100, that becomes a percentage.

51:09That is the percent that represents your cap rate, right? So net operating income, which is the money that's left over after you pay all of your operating expenses, but not your financing expenses. Leave the principal and interest portion of the mortgage out of the equation. Take your gross rent, subtract out property taxes, homeowner's insurance, repairs, maintenance, vacancies. Subtract out all of that. Do not subtract out the principal and interest portion of the mortgage. That doesn't enter into the equation at all. Subtract out the non-financing operating expenses from the gross rent. That will leave you with a figure that's known as your net operating income.

51:54Take that net operating income, divide it by the value of the property, and then that becomes the decimal point, which multiplied by 100 becomes a percent. That percentage is your cap rate. If that cap rate is three or under, then I would say definitely get rid of it. If it's four or five, you're in a gray zone if you like the property and it's easy to manage and relatively new. And, you know, if you like holding it, I don't have any objection to keeping that. If it's above five, that's actually probably pretty good. But yeah, if that cap rate, especially if that cap rate is like 1%, 2%, you're not going to want that.

52:35Yeah, that leads right into my initial thought, which is, Paula, that we don't have enough information to make that decision, which you already illustrated. We do need more info. But the way that I think about this stuff is this. if our goal is to look not at which asset we sell, but which asset we keep, I think that's it. Because I want to start with what's in the right place. If something's not in the right place, then I want to prune that bush. I want to make sure that I've got only assets that are working for me. So your methodology works toward that. Even on just a more basic level, I think for a lot of the people hanging out with us is this.

53:20A collection of assets will generally have a lower standard deviation than one asset. What do I mean by that? I mean that standard deviation is the wiggle that you're going to have. So if I've got a collection of mutual funds that are well diversified, I'll bet the standard deviation on that, the chance that something's going to go wrong on that is a lot less than on a single property. So if my goal is to increase standard deviation, then keeping a single asset is a better idea. If my goal is to lower standard deviation, then keeping the diversified collection is a better idea. For me, that's the first question that I would ask.

54:07Do I want to try to hit a home run with a single property? Are there things that, let's say things don't work out or aren't working out according to the formula that you just laid out. Is there a way to change that formula? If there's a way to change that formula, so it's in my favor and I want that higher standard deviation, then I'm going to sell off these mutual funds and I'm going to go with the single property that meets Paula's formula. If I can't, then actually it's pretty, pretty obvious. I'm going to sell the property. So that's the basic framework that I use. Am I trying to get there more reliably or am I trying to shoot the moon?

54:43Joe Murphy, you do want to hold the property because you have so much equity in the properties. You could borrow against the equity. Now, I would not do that with a cash out refinance because a cash out refi will close the existing mortgages that you already have and you have a locked in fixed interest rate. You likely do. but what I would do is take out a home equity line of credit or a home equity loan, something that will not close out the original mortgage but rather will just simply open a second separate loan against that equity. And then that would be another way that you could keep the properties and keep the rental income while also coming up with the cash for the next down payment.

55:28And yes, the home equity line of credit or the home equity loan will have a fairly high interest rate. But that's true of basically any loan that you're going to take out right now. We're in a high interest rate environment. And so the idea right now is marry the property, date the rate. When you buy a house, you are marrying the property. This is the house that you want to be in for the long term. But you're dating the rate. This is just a temporary thing and this rate, you know, you're going to kick this rate to the curb in about a year or two when you get a better offer. Taking out a loan against the equity that you have in both homes, that would be another way for you to generate down payment funds without having to get rid of these assets that you already hold.

56:20Because the thing about real estate transactions is transacting is very costly, right? Every time that you buy or sell a home, there are substantial buy and sell related fees. And if you compare that to a mutual fund, I mean, Joe, as you know, as a former financial planner, if someone bought a mutual fund that had some crazy back end load, people would be having a meltdown about it. Every home that you buy basically is like a mutual fund with a giant back end load. Yeah, exactly. There's a huge cost associated with selling the property. And so all else being equal, broadly speaking, the less that you can transact real estate, the better.

57:03People often ask me, Paula, are you buying and selling properties? I'm like, no, I'm just buying. I'm not selling. I never sell any of my properties. because why would I take that kind of a hit if instead I could just hold the property and if I ever want to tap that money, I can borrow against it. I'm not going to take the hit to sell unless there's a very compelling reason to do so. So for you, Jomer, compelling reason to do so would be if your cap rate is absolute garbage, if you run the numbers and you've got a 1 % cap rate and then you say, wait a minute, can I improve this? Can I increase the gross revenue?

57:37Can I decrease the operating expenses, right? You try to create efficiencies around that property in order to improve the cap rate. But if that fails and your cap rate is still garbage, and if the property is literally bringing in$200 a month above just the mortgage, meaning that you are over the long term underwater on it, or it's cash flow negative, you're not underwater equity wise, but in the long term, it's going to be cash flow negative because of the tight relationship between gross revenue and monthly mortgage payment. I mean, if that's the case, then yeah, those would be compelling reasons to get rid of it.

58:19Anything beyond that though, hold the property, borrow against the equity. Thank you, Jomer, for your question. Enjoy trading up to the next property. I just realized it could have been Jomer or Jammer if we went with Jamie like jam. Jam, yeah. And then the mer. Mer. It could have been jammer, but we went with Jomer. Oh, it could have been homie. Could have been homie. Could have been homie. What a missed opportunity. Hanging out with our homie. So Joe, where can people find you if they would like to hear more of your crazy portmanteaus? If you would like to be one of my homies, you can head over to Stacking Benjamins every Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

59:02day. It's the greatest money and personal finance show on earth because it's a variety show patterned after, as you know, Paula, the late night talk show. So very fast paced, lots of fun. And maybe you'll learn something. Maybe, just maybe. Maybe. Where am I in the trivia contest as of Labor Day? Oh, listen to you. Yes. Well, I mean, this episode is going to air a month from when we're recording it, right? This episode is going to air September 27. We're recording this September 4. So I thought there's a 23-day gap between when we record and when this episode airs. So we don't know. We don't know where I'm going to be in the trivia contest.

59:43The reason Paula brings it up is because the very brilliant Paula Pant, who knows a lot about a lot of things, is, I think the technical word is crappy. She's the crappiest trivia player ever the last three years four years she's always finished last place in trivia somehow and by the way these are only our friday episodes where you have this monday wednesday we have our trivia question but they're for you for our homies but on friday it's a fight to the death it's a little over the top it's a fight between paula award-winning blogger len Penzo and my co-host OG, which is short, of course, for other guy, by the way.

1:00:26So Paula's in first. Paula was just waiting for me to say that. I certainly am. Somehow Paula's in first place. We can't figure out how that happened. Steve, can we get a little We Are the Champions going? I doubt it. That is copyrighted music, Paula. Oh, man. We could probably hum it.

1:00:50So there we are. As long as YouTube algorithm didn't pick that up, which I doubt they did because that sounded horrible. That was so off tune. I think we're probably good. It would be a very smart algorithm to pick that up. But everybody doesn't know what you guys are playing for, which is a huge, huge thing. It is a trophy that our producer, Karen Repine, found at the dollar store. And it looks like it's a little dented.

1:01:19I am going to insist if I win it I am going to eat macaroni and cheese out of that trophy oh delicious yes fantastic yeah have you ever drank out of one of your Plutus Award cups no I haven't actually I've mimicked drinking out of one of those cups on stage but I don't know if it could actually hold liquid it does not uh tried tried it does not so you have to drink it very fast. Make sure it doesn't go to the bottom because it will spill out the bottom of the cup, unfortunately. All right. Well, thank you so much for tuning in. This is the Afford Anything podcast. If you enjoyed this podcast, do a few things.

1:01:54Number one, check us out on YouTube for those of you who are not watching on YouTube. Oh, and if you are watching on YouTube, hi. If you're audio people, go to youtube.com slash afford anything. Hit subscribe, hit the bell for notifications. Come join us there because we are really, we're making YouTube our home. You know, it's our home. It's where we settle in and have some coffee and eat some macaroni and cheese. Got rid of the tent, built a foundation. We're staying YouTube. Exactly. It's the YouTube thing. It's not just a fad. So yeah, come on over to YouTube. Say hello. Also subscribe to our show notes, affordanything.com slash show notes.

1:02:34We're doing a big overhaul of the show notes. In fact, it's going to be more beautiful, more well-designed, more engaging, I hope. Come check us out, affordanything.com slash show notes for a synopsis of every episode. Thank you again for tuning in. I'm Paula Pant. I'm Joe Solzzi. Hi. And we will catch you in the next episode. Here is an important disclaimer. There's a distinction between financial media and financial advice. Financial media includes everything that you read on the internet, hear on a podcast, see on social media that relates to finance. All of this is financial media. That includes the Afford Anything podcast, this podcast, as well as everything Afford Anything produces.

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