How to Master the Psychology of Persuasion, with Michael McQueen

23:30But by saying, look, I haven't figured all this out, but my sense is that. Just adopting a posture of humility, it builds that sense of connection, commonality, trust that is often essential if someone's going to be willing to listen to what you say. So I think that's probably the first most important thing to do is try and get them on board with you before you try and get them to agree with your perspective. It's time for Cyber Monday, Dell Technologies' biggest sale of the year. Enjoy the lowest prices of the year on select PCs like the Dell 16 +, featuring Intel Core Ultra processors. And with built-in advanced features, it's the PC that helps you do more, faster.

24:08Plus, earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, price match guarantee, and expert support. They also have huge deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC and make perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop now at dell.com slash deals.

24:30You know, when I was a kid, I remember on Christmas morning, I got lots of toys, lots of books, lots of clothes, gifts. The books were always my favorite. I'd spend all of Christmas Day just reading and reading and reading. But you know, none of those are things that I have anymore. They were wonderful in the moment. But decades later, I have no idea where any of those things went. But by contrast, when you give a gift that brings somebody financial security, that's something that lasts a lifetime. Now, when it comes to financial security, nearly half of American adults say that if they lost their primary income earner, they would suffer financial hardship within six months.

25:06And so if you want to secure your future before the new year begins, lock in your life insurance today because that's something that you don't buy for yourself. You buy it for your loved ones. You buy it so that in the event that the worst were to happen, your loved ones would have some financial security. PolicyGenius helps you find your most affordable policy that meets your needs. They answer questions, handle paperwork. Their license team helps you find what you need in terms of coverage amounts, prices, terms. They have thousands of five-star reviews on Google and Trustpilot. With PolicyGenius, real users have gotten 20-year,$2 million policies for just$53 a month.

25:44Don't wait until next year. Give your family the gift of security today with PolicyGenius. Head to PolicyGenius.com to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's PolicyGenius.com. You know, we've all set health goals. Maybe we want to exercise more or eat better or lose weight, but without a plan, they often fade. That's where Prolon comes in. It's five-day fasting mimicking diet gives you a science-backed, structured approach to stay on track and see real results. So Prolon offers an injection-free way to get help to lose weight, get help to burn fat while protecting lean muscle.

26:23And in just five days, it can help activate fasting pathways to help support metabolic health and rejuvenate cells, all while letting you enjoy real food. Prolon is a plant-based nutrition program featuring soups, snacks, and beverages designed to help nourish the body while keeping it in a fasting state. It's been shown to support biological age reduction, metabolic health, fat loss, and energy. And NextGen builds on the original Prolon with 100 % organic soups and teas, a richer taste, and ready-to-eat meals. I have definitely eaten way too much junk food over Thanksgiving, and so I'm actually planning on starting the five-day program because I need a reset.

27:00For a limited time, Prolon is offering listeners 15 % off site-wide, plus a$40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five-day program. Just visit prolonlife.com slash Paula. That's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F-E dot com slash Paula to claim your 15 % discount and your bonus gift. ProlonLife.com slash Paula. These statements and products have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or condition.

27:40It can be helpful if you can present the idea not even as your perspective, but nudge them into coming up with the idea themselves. There's a great example of that in the cigarette, Can I Have a Light? Yes. Can you share that story? It's an amazing story. So I read this in one of Jonah Berger's books, and I'd heard about it over the years, but I hadn't sort of seen the detail of the case study. It's a fascinating one. So the Thai health authorities in Thailand did this a few years ago where they'd released a quit smoking campaign like a lot of governments around the world do, but it wasn't really working.

28:20People weren't calling the quit helpline to get advice, to quit smoking. And so they'd done all the standard things that governments do. They had tried information campaigns to scare people or to shock people, to give them medical information. Again, none of it was working. What they tried, though, was a technique where they sent people out into the community to go up to smokers who were mid-smoke, you know, having a smoke and ask them for a light. Now, typically that's like the global assumed thing that if another smoker asks you a light, you just say, yes, that's just a social norm. What's interesting in this instance, when they walked up to the smokers, the people sent out by the Thai health departments to ask for a light, they were met with a lecture.

28:56So the people who were smoking stopped smoking long enough to basically lecture the other person as to why they shouldn't smoke. And it's bad for you and give you cancer. And you don't have to drill a hole into your throat. If you get throat cancer, you know how bad that would be and like you think how strange that these people smoking would default to that response and it's only strange to understand who it was it was asking for a light and it was young kids aged between eight and ten so the Thai health authorities have sent these kids out into the community to essentially ask for a light when they received the lecture what the kids then did is reached into their pocket and gave that smoker a little note that said you care about me what about yourself and they had the little quit helpline and that quit helpline I can't remember the exact number, but I mean, it had been around for a number of months now.

29:37The number of calls in the month that followed this skyrocketed and stayed elevated for many, many months afterwards. Because what happened is suddenly the smokers heard themselves giving the advice they'd been given by others for years. They knew what was right. They knew what was helpful. They knew what was going to be constructive. But until they were the ones giving the advice, essentially until they owned it, became the messenger of this rather than the person being coerced by their kids and their spouse and the government and the community or stop smoking when they were the ones who had to give the message.

30:07Suddenly it sunk in. And it's not foolproof, but it was a much better technique than trying to coerce or convince these smokers to change, getting them to actually vocalize themselves. Why change was a good idea. And so there's lots of ways that you could do that in other techniques. One of the techniques that I found that I loved that is very useful, and I've seen this work at a personal level as well as a professional level in the last few months is a technique I call the rate and reflect technique. And so this can be really valuable if you've got someone you're dealing with, it might be a teenage kid or someone at work or someone, you know, partner or spouse, and they're really fixed in a certain way of thinking or behaving.

30:44What you can do, the first thing is you ask two or two questions you ask in a specific order. The reason this works is because it gives the other person that sense of control and agency. So the first question you ask is, so out of one to ten how likely or willing would you be to and dot dot dot whatever the changes you're wanting to suggest so they're going to give a number now that's the great thing firstly it's a scale it's not a yes or no do you want to do this yes or no because if there's even a shred of doubt or resistance people will say no and so you're giving them a scale so that's a helpful first start but that's not a particularly new or fresh or original idea it's the second question in this approach that's where the game changes because the second question then is i'd say the first one, they've said three out of 10.

31:23I don't want to do this, but probably three out of 10, maybe two out of 10. Second question that is, okay, so I'm just curious, how come you didn't choose a lower number? And at that moment, the whole conversation changes because now the person is encouraged to share the reasons, even if it's only a small number of reasons or a tiny bit of reasons for why they might be open to a certain way of doing things or thinking. This doesn't negate all the other reasons they have for not wanting to, but it focuses the conversation on the part of them that is motivated to change. So this is a technique in the clinical world.

31:54It's called motivational interviewing, and it's been used for decades now to deal with drug abuse and all sorts of destructive medical conditions. And it's been shown to be the most effective way to get people to change in a way where the change is sustainable because they're giving reasons to change that are their own rather than feeling they have to comply with what's being presented to them. And I actually saw this play out recently, a few months ago, So a group of us were getting together, a whole lot of mates away for a weekend. And on a Saturday night, I was sitting around drinking whiskey.

32:21And one of the guys in the group said, hey, so let's be honest. How's life going? A scale of one to 10, how are your marriages going, for instance? And I'm thinking, gosh, that's heavy. That's serious. All right, I'm strapping. Why not? Let's go there. So we sort of went around the group. There were about seven of us there. And everyone said, oh, I have like seven out of 10 or eight out of 10 or whatever. The last guys we got around to him in the group said, oh, yeah, probably three. probably three out of ten would be like where we're at right now it was the whole conversation changed was like it was quite heavy there's a lot going on in their family unit and it was all pretty difficult and we spent as a group you know because this group's been friends for a lot of years a lot of life done with this group of guys so like we just talked about how's that going what does that mean and after about 45 minutes we got sort of this downward spiral of everything being a bit dire and negative and so i remember as we're sitting there thinking how do we sort of move forward in this conversation because it's just like a bit of a downer.

33:13And so I thought, I'll try this technique in the most un-technique-y way. You've got to make them conversational organic. If it feels like you've got a strategy you're at work playing out, people sniff that a mile off. See, I just said just in a very conversational way, hey, so you said you're three out of 10. How come you didn't give a lower number? What's that about, do you reckon? And in that instant, it was like I was speaking to a different person in a different marriage. Like his whole conversation, his whole posture changed, his countenance changed. I was like, well, not everything's bad.

33:42There's some stuff that is really good. Like we make a really good team as parents. He started to then essentially sell us on the ideas behind why things were good. There were just elements. This didn't negate all the other stuff that was hard, but it shifted the whole focus of the conversation toward the things that were good. And I think that's a useful technique in all sorts of contexts where you want to get people to reflect on how willing or open are they? And then what's the part of them that is willing and open? And what is the motivation that already exists and start there? And you're far more likely to have a constructive conversation.

34:11Another piece of that also comes from highlighting to people what their own values are and then gently showing the incongruity between their stated values and the current decisions that they're making. There's a hand-washing example that stands out and it's very subtle. Yeah, that was a really interesting example. that was in one of Adam Grant's books. I think it was in Think Again. They used the example of how to get surgeons to wash their hands a sufficient number of times and sufficient duration. Because surgeons know, and it's been common practice for a long while now that you've got to wash your hands in a certain way for a certain period of time for them to be safe for you as a surgeon.

34:52And yet, and this is terrifying for anyone who's been in surgery in the last few years, there's every chance that your surgeon didn't wash their hands for as long as they should. That's just the statistics are that people, even surgeons who know what they should do were not washing their hands enough. And so a couple of techniques were tried to shift this. So they'd place different signs with different wording above the hand washing sink in hospitals. And so one of the signs was, you know, wash your hands for the sake of your patients and their safety or whatever it was, or wash your hands for the sake of your safety or your health.

35:23And even all these different versions of these signs that they used above the hand washing sink and then measured how long people washed their hands for. And the one that got the best results was when they framed hand washing as something that was for the benefit of the patients they were treating, because if they didn't, it could harm their patients. And all it was is it just reminded the surgeons what they valued. The reason they got into what they do typically is because they care about patients, they care about people. And so their beliefs, their value system, their behavior were incongruent.

35:50Once that was made clear, their behavior changed to match their beliefs really quickly. And so typically that's a really good way to lead with this stuff. And so you can do that by just reminding or nudging people as to what their values are and just gently pointing out where there might be a gap, that sense of incongruence between their behaviors and their beliefs. But you can also get people to make commitments sometimes in a way that really helps. There's another example in the medical context of overprescription of antibiotics. And they did this at a series of clinics in Los Angeles. And so, I mean, overprescription of antibiotics is a massive issue.

36:23Something like$300 million worth of overprescribed antibiotics are given every year in the US. It's a huge figure. they wanted to try and address this. And so what they did, they got doctors to sign a pledge that they wouldn't over-prescribe antibiotics. And they had a couple of clinics where the doctors just signed the pledge, others where the doctors signed the pledge and then put it up in the waiting room, and then other doctors that didn't sign the pledge at all. And what they found is that when they sent essentially actors who were pretending to be patients with symptoms to go into the doctor's practices, those who had gone to practices where the doctor had signed the pledge they wouldn't over-prescribe were far less likely to be given antibiotics they didn't need, Those where the pledge was physically visible were significantly less, even more less to get antibiotics they didn't need.

37:06Something about making that sense of commitment to what they thought was important actually guided or shaped the behavior of the other individuals. So sometimes if you want to get someone to shift their behavior or their perspective, getting them to clarify what their values actually are. And even in the case of, let's say, finances, what do we actually value as a family or as a couple? Let's just be clear on that. And the fact is, once you actually speak the values out, often you realize from a values perspective, we're really aligned. We're on the same page. Our values are the same. It's just that our behavior or our priorities are not.

37:36And sometimes just clarifying the values, getting on the same page and getting people to speak out loud, what actually matters to them suddenly becomes clear that maybe some of what they're spending their money on, some of the way they're investing their time, some of the decisions they're making don't match what their values are. And that's the opportunity then to have an honest but a humble conversation about, okay, what needs to change? If this really matters to us, how do we need to live this? We need to walk our talk. Reframing an issue also makes a major difference. There's a great adage there about two monks.

38:06One monk said, can I smoke while I pray? And he was told no. The other monk asked, well, can I pray while I smoke? And he was told yes. It's amazing. And the way you position an idea, the way that you frame it can make all the difference. And this can be honestly down to the language that you use. Sometimes we use language in a way that essentially means that we can step back from the issues and not engage with them honestly. Something about framing an idea and actually using language deliberately actually makes a big difference. And so we've seen this play in lots of different ways. I mean, this is what PR people have done for years.

38:42They won't talk about mining. They'll talk about resource exploration, for instance. Like it's just about using language in a way that it changes the frame, changes the way the message or the idea is perceived. Gambling has turned into gaming. Exactly. That's exactly it. And so we've got to be mindful that we can also be manipulated by organizations, by companies, by brands and the way that they use this language. But if we're smart, we can use this language well to frame an idea or an issue in a way that's going to be relevant to another person. A guy named Jonathan Hyatt has done some great work around using what he calls the five moral foundations.

39:14So if you look at the way that people understand the world and think about issues, typically the moral foundations will be things like fairness or justice. There'll be things like loyalty, authority, purity. And so if you can frame an idea using language that speaks to the values, the moral foundations of the person that you're engaging with, you can take any issue and frame it in different ways, depending on the way that person sees the world, the way that person defines their value set, and your message will either then be received or they'll push back on it. Framing the way you communicate and the language you use can make all the difference.

39:47So I'd encourage people to check out that stuff. Jonathan Haidt's work on moral foundation, it's brilliant. And to go from the deep end back to the shallow end, moral foundations, moral framing, that's the deep end of it. At the shallow end, at the superficial end, something as simple as making it rhyme can make it resonate more. As illogical as it is, we know that humans are not logical beings. People tend to believe things that rhyme. Yeah. Is Gillette the best a man can get? I don't know. Maybe. Yeah, but there's something about just using a rhyming thing makes something sound more credible.

40:20And so there's a lot of really interesting research about using language that's easy to understand or has a symmetry to it, even using the use of alliteration. It makes your message or your idea sound more credible, even though it may not be. But all of a sudden, because it has that sense of rhyming, it actually, it's almost slips off the tongue. so therefore people's minds are more easily able to consider it and take it on board. Alliteration too. Afford anything is much more powerful than buy anything. Correct. Yes. And often they're very simple things. And one of the things I struggle with is this constant tension of wanting to use techniques that work because they just work, but at the same time, not to use things that could be manipulative.

40:58And one of the important decision points for any of us is to ask ourselves, are we trying to change someone's mind for our benefit or theirs? That's got to be the starting point. And so I think the manipulation and persuasion can often look very similar. You can even use the same tools, but it's about the motivation or the heart behind it that really matters. So even though I share a whole lot of techniques and tactics for trying to position ideas, frame the conversation, open people up to certain ways of doing things or thinking differently, the precursor to all of this is, are you doing this in a way that is integrous?

41:30Are you doing this in an ethical way and in a way that is designed to benefit the other person. Otherwise, it's manipulation, which is never going to work well in any relationship, but certainly in particularly the sort of close relationships, often where these conversations really come to the surface. And I think one of the things I love this notion of, are you just trying to win for the sake of winning? Andy Stanley, who's a leadership expert based in the States, put it beautifully. He said, in any relationship, when one party wins, the relationship always loses. And so if you're going into a discussion to try and win or to beat the other person, your opponent, or in some cases, it might even be your spouse or your partner trying to win the argument.

42:06Often that's going to be an unhelpful posture, an unhelpful tone to start with. Going to have a conversation where you both move forward together. I mean, the goal is not victory, it's progress. And that's what changing minds is actually all about. If it's going to be done in a sustainable way, these aren't just parlor tricks or techniques just to coerce people into thinking differently. It's hopefully getting to a point where they feel they can open up their thinking, see an idea from a different perspective, and embrace it wholeheartedly as our own. That's the goal. When beginning this, how can you let somebody know that you disagree with them without sounding disagreeable?

42:40We'll go back to the example of maybe your spouse spends a lot more money than you're comfortable with, and you disagree with that, or maybe they want to make one big major big-ticket purchase coming up that you think is a bad idea. You disagree with it, but perhaps you haven't discussed that yet and you'd like to bring it up and you'd like to disagree, but you don't want to sound disagreeable. You don't want to sound as though you're instigating something. Well, firstly, I would just say acknowledge the awkward, just get it out there. Just say, Hey, like, this is a conversation that I hate bringing this stuff up.

43:13I don't like talking about this. You know, to me, the relationship we have is far more important than money and decisions, but obviously we need to talk about this. So like just even of framing it in that way can be really helpful because, you know, that just sets a tone where you've acknowledged the awkward, you've called it out. And then some of those statements we talked about before, this idea of take this for what it is, it's just my own view. My sense is that, because if you go in with a really firm view of this is my position, my argument, here's why I'm right. And I think you should consider it.

43:40Of course, the other person is going to instantly get their back up or dig their heels in. And so going in with that sense of this, look, this is just my view and I might be way off here. And this might be really unreasonable, but and even just giving them the opportunity to then essentially step in and understand things from your perspective without having to feel like it's this battle of the wills. So I think so much of it's about starting the conversation with that sense of humility and openness, but realizing that there will be points where it actually does get tense or difficult. And when someone's in that state where they're like the amygdala attack has kicked off, you know, they're angry, they're frustrated, they're fighting back, the hair on the back of the neck stands up.

44:17Sometimes in those moments, you don't have to finish the conversation there and then find a resolution. I feel like, let's just press pause. I'd love to circle back to this, but like we're both tired. Maybe now's not the right time to talk about this. Bear in mind that the things you've suggested, the perspectives you've got, particularly put them in terms of your own experience, how you feel about these things rather than logical arguments. They're going to be far more likely to think about those and the hours and the days that follow, then circle back to the conversation later on. And I think sometimes we've got to be mindful of there's timing in having conversations that are effective.

44:47And often now may not be the right time. Certainly raise it even to start the conversation, but you don't have to have it there and then. And so I think just picking a moment is probably also a really important part of just not spiraling into these very tense situations where you both walk off in a huff and nothing actually changes. You know, when you're a kid, you dream about being an astronaut or working with wildlife or all these cool things. And then when you grow up, you think about not just what you want to do, but also you think about this other layer to it, which is how do I want to impact the world?

45:20What legacy do I want to leave behind? And how do I want to do that through my work? For a lot of people, that's when you start dreaming about owning your own business. But to do that, you're going to need a website, a payment system, a logo, a way to find new customers. And that can be really overwhelming and it's a big workload. That's where today's sponsor, Shopify, comes in. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10 % of all e-commerce in the U.S., ranging from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands that are just getting started. If you need a website, Shopify's got you from the get-go with beautiful ready-to-go templates.

45:57You can get help with everyday tasks like writing product descriptions, generating discount codes. Shopify can help you find your customers with easy-to-run email and social media campaigns, and they have award-winning 24-7 customer support. Turn those dreams into and give them the best shot at success with Shopify. Sign up for your one month,$1 per month trial period and start selling today at Shopify.com slash Paula. Go to Shopify.com slash Paula. Shopify.com slash Paula. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash?

46:37Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes, and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit Progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

47:06when you're trying to change somebody's mind in a work context and this conversation is happening over zoom but largely perhaps over email or over slack how do you modify these or apply these principles in that type of a context a lot of it depends on how much existing relationship is there because one of the things that, and we've seen this play out a lot in the last couple of years with remote and hybrid work, when you've got teams that have never actually worked physically together, what you're lacking is social capital. And also that sense of just knowing someone's values. And so if they say something that feels like it's out of character, you give them the benefit of the doubt.

47:44Whereas if you don't have that, if all you've ever seen is someone on a screen or connected with them via Slack or email, then they say something and you're like, well, maybe that's just what they're like. And if that's the way they are, I don't want to work for someone like that. And all of a sudden we spiral, we get offended. And so I think it is important at times to be mindful of what you put in writing and what you say face-to-face or video. I mean, typically a good rule of thumb is write the positive and say the negative and never get those mixed up. If you write the negative, it's amazing how people stew on that.

48:16They read into it, write the positive and they'll often refer back to it. And it can be a really powerful way building relationship and rapport, but speak out the negative. So if you're in different geographical regions, that means jumping on a call. That means having a Zoom call. Face-to-face is better because if you look at a lot of the research around oxytocin and what Paul Zak's work has looked at around what builds trust, there's something about being physically with people that makes a big difference. But if nothing else, at least make it audible. And hopefully that's so that the person can see you because otherwise they'll read into their instinctive mind.

48:45That's what the instinctive mind does is it's great at narrative formation. It'll make up a story. It'll take the tiny bits of data that it's got about the situation or the relationship, and it'll construct a whole narrative, which may or may not be true. And so when you're having these tense situations and trying to change someone's mind, particularly in a work context, face-to-face, or at least in a video call, it's going to be far better than trying to do something in a written format. But yeah, ideally, if you can get face-to-face and build rapport and relationship, this is why what I'm seeing with a lot of my clients is they'll have off sites now where, you know, the off site they may have had with their sales team, say, three or four years ago, half the time is about strategy planning and content delivery.

49:23Now, a lot of the time is just spent being together, building relationships, because that social capital, that social glue, that's what's missing when we work remotely. And increasingly, that's what causes the offense and the friction, because you don't know the other person enough to give them the benefit of the doubt. And so, therefore, your instinctive might often jump to conclusions. All right. Well, we're reaching the end of our time. Are there any points that we haven't discussed that you'd like to emphasize? One of the things I've found that's really valuable for clients, particularly in a work context around why people don't change, is to look at the whole notion of resisting change.

49:58Because we've been told for years that humans are afraid of change. That's something we've all said. We've all read it. I've said it. I've written about that in books. What's interesting, what we've discovered in the last few years is that's not actually true. Humans aren't afraid of change. What we are afraid of is loss. The moment you're engaging with someone who feels stubborn or stuck in a certain way of thinking, realize that it's probably a sense of feeling they're losing something that's at the core of that sense of resistance. So typically the three common losses that people fear the most that cause them to be stubborn, the loss of certainty, the loss of power, and the loss of dignity.

50:31The moment people feel like changing or shifting their perspective or adopting a new worldview means they're going to lose one of those things, the more they'll resist, They'll dig their heels in, even if deep down they know what you're suggesting is a good idea. And so my encouragement would be rather than trying to upsell the benefits of change and give lots of logical reasons why the change you're suggesting is worth considering, lessen the loss. Address those points of loss, those perceived losses that people may have, because unless you do that, the best ideas in the world will typically be falling on deaf ears if people's fear of loss means they can't consider those in an open-minded way.

51:04Perfect. Well, thank you for spending this time with us. And your book, Mind Stuck, Mastering the Art of Changing Minds, is available anywhere books are sold. Yes, indeed. Thank you so much. Lovely to spend the time. Ah, thank you. Thank you, Michael. What are three key takeaways that we got from this conversation? Key takeaway number one, there are times when we can become entrenched in ideas, and that can lead to unhelpful behaviors or bad decisions, like not getting out of a bad investment or not pivoting your strategy in some kind of a side hustle that you're running. Maybe there's a portion of your portfolio that you dedicate to individual stocks and you've held on to a couple of them for way longer than you should have.

51:50Or maybe there's a limiting belief that you hold, an idea that you can't do X or Y or Z. And you are stuck on that idea because as long as you continue to believe it, it justifies why you haven't. In this first key takeaway, Michael McQueen talks about how to recognize entrenchment in ideas within ourselves. And the key is recognizing whether or not you approach something with a spirit of curiosity. You look for it in yourself when you feel uncomfortable or unwilling to consider an alternative. You'll read an article, you'll have a conversation that challenges something you've assumed is true.

52:32Instead of being curious, you become defensive. For all of us, we've got our own tells, our ways of figuring that out. I noticed for me over the years, when the hair on the back of my neck goes up and I start to feel that flushed red, hot feeling around my throat and my face, it's actually, that's the amygdala response. That is the fight and flight part of our brain kicking in to defend our views. And sometimes, you know, you're having a conversation with someone and it's actually a really casual conversation, but they butt up against something that you feel strongly about. And instead of being able to honestly and objectively have the conversation and remain in that posture of curiosity and humility and open-mindedness.

53:08And so that is the first key takeaway. Key takeaway number two, when you're trying to persuade someone, getting in sync with them can help you feel a lot more comfortable and it can help the both of you work together as a team. So in the second key takeaway, Michael McQueen shares one major tip to get in sync with another person when you need them to change their mind or when you need to win them over to your side. Match the body language of the person that you're communicating with if you want to build influence. And I'm like, to me, that's always felt just a little bit contrived. You know, if they cross their legs, you cross your legs.

53:43If they touch their ear, you touch your ear. I'm like, it just feels almost manipulative even. So I remember speaking with him a little while back and say, how do you do that in a non-icky way? Or it's a really practical way. And I just loved what he shared. He said, one of the things that the researchers have shown is that going for a walk is the best way to do this. Because when you walk side by side with someone, you eventually start to match their cadence. You get in sync. And when that happens, if you look at what happens in our brains, there's essentially a mind meld that forms when you're doing something in sync with another person.

54:12So if you've got to have a high stakes conversation, it's the sort of thing that could easily turn into a battle of the wills. And a source of stubbornness. Don't do it across the dinner table or a coffee table. Get out, go for a walk side by side. Even simple things like that can actually change the way our brains are engaging with the other person and make us more open-minded. That's an important tip for high stakes conversations. And that is the second key takeaway. Finally, key takeaway number three, be honest and be humble. Honesty and humility are character attributes and values that have integrity in and of themselves.

54:49When you remain inside of that, you remain inside of your own power, your own internal locus of control. But in addition to those two attributes being strong characteristics, they also can disarm the people with whom you communicate because humility and honesty builds connection and trust. And that is central currency regardless of whether you're an attorney presenting a case to a jury or whether you're a salesperson talking to a client or an engineer making a case to your boss as to why you should get a raise. Don't go into the argument or the discussion or the debate with another person with that sense that I've got my carefully worded arguments ready to go.

55:35Go in with that sense of open posture. This is just my view for what it's worth. I may be way off here, but just like preempting it with that sense of self-deprecation is incredibly effective because it disarms the other person. And there's a guy named Kip Williams who's done some great work looking at how this plays out in a legal setting. And I love his work because he's looked at in legal cases, when do the jury typically switch their allegiance from one side to another? And what they've found is typically when one solicitor will go to the jury and actually acknowledge weaknesses in their own case, acknowledge information that might work against their own arguments.

56:11But by being self-deprecating and even engaging in self-disclosure, just being honest and humble, what it does is it instantly disarms the other party, in this case the jury, and makes them, instead of sitting there looking for the holes in your argument, the key is you've got to bring that stuff up before the opposing side has the chance to, but by saying, look, I haven't figured all this out, but my sense is that. Like just adopting a posture of humility, it builds that sense of connection, commonality, trust that is often essential if someone's going to be willing to listen to what you say.

56:37So I think that's probably the first most important thing to do is try and get them on board with you before you try and get them to agree with your perspective. And so that is the third and final key takeaway. Thank you for listening and thank you for your dedication to self-improvement and great financial health. This is the Afford Anything podcast. If you enjoyed today's podcast, please share it with a friend or a family member. and remember to follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify where you can leave an honest review. I'm so grateful that you tuned in and spent this time with us today. My name is Paula Pant and I'll meet you in the next episode.