How to Teach Kids About Money, with Dr. Stephen Day

26:56Is there a mandate to do a certain level of work per week, per day or per week? Is there like a baseline mandate and then the option to do additional work to make additional money if they were to choose to do so? or could a child theoretically say, you know what, I don't want anything from this store, so I'm just going to be unemployed? Yeah, that's what happened in my friend Oleg's house. He has a son who cares about goods and services and is willing to work and a daughter who, as he put it, has a very low level of consumption and she's happy like that and she's just happy not to do any work.

27:37She's early retired. Yeah. Now, the thing is she understands the trade-off when she does that. So I think it's fine. Now, if you have family work, you know, if it's putting the dishes away and they should really do it, if it's cleaning their room, if it's kind of basic things that they ought to do anyway, then they still need to do that. Right, making their bed kind of a thing. Yeah, making the bed, exactly. It can cause a little bit of strain if you have one kid who super wants to work and they're doing a bunch of jobs. And I say it causes a little strain or maybe you could say tension, but I think it's healthy in it and you need to let it go.

28:12My 11-year-old Calvin again, he is really into making money. He really wants to do it. He'll do extra jobs. He has a little business making little cardboard figures, which he sells at school. He has written a book. It's a young adult book. He rolls out of bed each morning at six, picks up his notebook and handwrites in cursive for about half an hour before he wakes up his siblings. Wow. It's something else. Yeah. It's just interesting to see sometimes that if you have a kid who's a go-getter, they're going to do extra jobs, extra work. And I think that it might kind of intimidate their siblings, but, I mean, think about everything they've learned in that situation.

28:55They have learned goals, planning. They're using math. They're being creative. They're learning about entrepreneurship. They're learning how to speak for themselves. They're setting prices and negotiating. They're achieving goals. They're making connections. I mean, they're doing all these things that I think are helping them build financial habits and knowledge. And they're going to take this with them through their whole lives. You mentioned some of the jobs. I'd love to go through a few examples. You gave the example of a zookeeper. In addition to zookeeping, what are some of the other titles?

29:34It's funny that you ask in addition to zookeepers. So when we sat down with my kids to plan our next round of mini economy, I said, what would you like to see in the mini economy this next year? And they said, Lucy needs a harder job. So the youngest child, Lucy, has had the zookeeper job for three years now. And she's managed to kind of in a real youngest child kind of way be like, oh, no, this is all that I can do. And I think it's time that she starts getting a little bit more difficult job. When Calvin was really little, his first job was the guard. He said, we asked what important work needed to be done in the house.

30:13And he said, the house needs to be guarded. And he wanted to patrol around the house to defend against bad guys. It was so cute. We let him do it as part of the job. But he said, other important parts of the job are picking up the toy swords and spears and things that we had lying around the house, and then also to make characters, right? So there was a creative part in it too. I always try to mix in a cleaning, tidying part, and then a skill, a creative part as well. You want kids to, it's what's called progressive tax complexity. Thinking about jobs kids can do where they are building more skills over time, kind of like progressive overload and weightlifting or something like that.

30:53Right. Other jobs are, there's outdoor jobs. There's the landscaper and the gardener. This started with pulling weeds until Robbie, who was, I think he was six at the time, he said that he had the most boring and hard job. He said, I have the hardest job. It's the most boring job. And I don't know if it was the hardest job. Maybe it is. Pulling weeds is pretty bad work. Nobody likes to pull weeds, right? So my wife, Sarah, pulled me aside and she said, what if you let him push the mower? And I was like, he's seven. I said, okay, he could. So I let him mow the front lawn and you should see him push this mower around like he owned the property.

31:37He was so proud of himself and so motivated. And so now the gardener's job became mowing. The landscaper's job was edging and basically outdoor kind of lawn jobs that really needed to be done. They brought the advantage in that teaching the kids to use tools I found is so important. It teaches them skills and it builds that level of motivation that we rely on, which is competence. You know, if the job does not require competence, there's no growth mindset, they stagnate. Right. Let me just list some of the jobs because you answered the answer. Zookeeper, gardener, landscaper, librarian, kitchen worker, guard, pool attendant.

32:25Because in the summer, we'd come back from the pool and all your pool bags needed to be organized and that sort of thing. So we had the pool attendant and the pool attendant, they also had to keep track of things when they were at the pool as well. Those are the few job titles I can think of off the top of my head. We have a list of them in the book along with possible work that they could do for each of those things. And of course, you can make up as many of your own as you want to as well. Right. The librarian was supposed to pick up the books. That was the kind of cleanup part because there were always books just strewn around the house.

32:56But then also to write. And that was Daisy's job. She started writing her little stories as part of her job. Read to the younger kids as well. You know, that's a great job. Read to the little kids, do some writing, put the books away. That's a great job. Can multiple kids have the same job? So could there be multiple librarians, for example? There kind of are multiple landscapers and gardeners. At this point, the boundaries between the jobs for the outdoor work has sort of melded together. Right. And I think that's okay. people in traditional cultures tend to be more collective with the work that they do and it's called learning by observing and pitching in kids hang around parents and just kind of jump in to the work that they're doing and the two boys have kind of done that with me in the outdoor work we started with our distinct jobs and now we kind of jump into tasks together so working on the hedges or the weeds or planting new grass or planting flowers.

34:00Everyone likes to come out and plant flowers. Calvin still likes to do the edging and Robbie still likes to do the mowing, which leaves me to pull the weeds. I have the bad job in that. So jobs can often overlap. We still have job titles for them, but their titles have overlapped. Right. Does that ever lead to sibling conflict in terms of, hey, I'm doing their jobs and then conflict around compensation as a result? This is an important part of building intrinsic motivation. Have a morning meeting. Saturday morning, gather the family together. What you do is you can set a schedule for the day, talk about what jobs need to be done, when we're going to do the work, doing household chores, whether you're doing a mini economy or not, is more effective when everybody's working at the same time.

34:46If you send somebody off to do it in isolation, it's not as good. So you talk about when you're going to do the jobs. you ask the kids if they have any thoughts about what's coming up and they'll speak into the situation is something not fair and you can kind of adjudicate it right then i mean it's difficult when they want their sibling to do more more work you know in that case what you do is if the rules need to be changed you usually don't make the change exactly right then if it's a burden on somebody else whether it's setting a new expectation or raising a price or doing something that can be difficult, you just say, we'll make it happen next week.

35:26What did happen was my two boys said, Lucy needs a tougher job. She's been the zookeeper for three years and that's a toddler job. Then we say, okay, well, we're not going to just switch what Lucy does right now, but over the week, we're going to find out some new work that Lucy can do that maybe is something that a big seven-year-old can really accomplish and find something that she can be successful in. So that morning meeting is critical for building a family culture, for setting the norms and expectations and planning and all this builds intrinsic motivation, which you need for them to do even their paid work.

35:59You know, people don't work only because of money. The money is an add-on. I mean, you should do this whether you have a mini economy or not. Right. Yeah. And then on that topic, because there's such a major component of that that ties in with goals, for a young child that goal might be all right i i want the stuffed animal instead of the candy so i'm going to save for a couple of weeks to get this bigger item but when they become a bit older and their goals become a bit bigger how do you deal with that particularly when the goals the true goals that they have are outside of the domain of the house yeah i love the question because it shows that ultimately we want the kids to learn about money.

36:41The end goal is to be able to pursue those things which are valuable to us. So you name what you value and you use that to set goals. As the kids age, their goals change. In some ways, they grow out of the mini economy a bit. And that's because a mini economy is largely a little environment for small children to grow up through in their elementary years. And by the way, it helps you change the prices of things so that the kids can get less stuff that you really don't want them to have, like loads of sugar and they can get relatively, you can make things cheaper for healthier things, right? Now, as they get older, they start to notice they could just buy those things in the store.

37:27all of our mini economy money is convertible to U.S. dollars and that helps anchor the value. I found that to be very important. There should be an exchange rate for mini economy money to real money. And as the kids get older, they start to value the real money. Yeah. Now they still value the mini economy money because they can buy privileges. And that goes really all the way through teenagehood. If there's still things where as a parent, you say no to sometimes and yes to sometimes and the parents still have discretion over those, kids still value the privilege coupons. So the mini economy is still in place.

38:02But more and more, they start to cash in their day bucks in our household for real money. It would be fun if it was a floating currency conversion that changed every day and then they could like forex arbitrage. Well, that can happen in a simple version. And that just goes by how much they choose to convert it versus how much they don't. And there are currency flows. I mean, sometimes I find myself short on U.S. dollars and a little cash stash or find myself flush with mini-economy money. So all those same economic principles, they still hold. I think the kids, they have learned the word exchange rate, and they know how to use it because they've used an exchange rate in our household economy.

38:44What the kids can use money for is investing because we also have household businesses. when the kids are selling stuff back to me through their household business if they're using stuff that I bought from the store they have to pay me for those things so Robbie's household business was to make the morning coffee man it's just glorious wake up in the morning and there's just coffee just waiting for you a child just hands you your cup of coffee one time I woke up to a fight happening in the house between the kids. And I went to go like adjudicate the fight. And there was Robbie handing me coffee.

39:24You know how much, I mean, if you had to wake up in the morning to deal with the fight and just had, you know, there's your little assistant handing you coffee. Oh man, perfect. No, I guess in that case, he didn't have to buy the resources for it. When Calvin wrote his book and was selling it, he had to pay me for editorial services. I transcribed it using an ai tool because you know he hand wrote it and so I took the picture of it and Had the ai transcribe it and put it in google docs and then I did editing as well That took work And then my wife sarah is really good with graphics and so she Dealt with the technical side of that even though calvin did all the illustrations so they had to compensate us for that Now, as the kids get older, the simple answer is they keep on doing their household jobs, but they just value real money more.

40:14And because the mini economy money is convertible to U.S. dollars, they can do that. And sometimes they just say, Dad, I'm saving up for this thing. Could you please pay me in U.S. dollars? Yeah, sure, fine. You know, there's an easy exchange rate. It's all legit. Causes no hassle. How are decisions made around things like the compensation structure and the exchange rate? I mean, is it a democratic system in which the kids get a vote? Yes, and that happens through the morning meeting. If the kids think they deserve a raise, I'll definitely give them a raise if they learn new skills. And if they become more productive, I say, look, you guys are getting lots of useful work done around the house.

40:58I mean, stuff looks great, and it's because you learned how to do this new thing. You're using all the cleaning supplies, or you used a power tool. You can do all this stuff that you weren't able to do when you were little. Yeah, you deserve a raise. You deserve more money. But when you have your morning meeting, when you discuss the work that you're doing, if the kids say, you know, this should be worth more, I think that's great teaching, you know, because we want the kids to know how to value their own work and to speak into it. Yeah. You know, it strikes me, you've got four kids, so there's a bit of a council with a variety of voices.

41:34But it's, you know, I'm thinking about the challenge of being an only child in which you are outnumbered by the adults. Yeah. Right? As an only child, there's no one to back you up. So if you assert that something is unfair, but the grownups say otherwise, there's no support from siblings. Right. That's a great point. Right. I had a mom ask me one time, she said, we have an only child. How can you do this system? How can you have a whole little economy? If, you know, is this a thing for me? You know, if you have an only child, I think it's a mini economy probably works best if you have a household store where you team up with another family.

42:13So that play date you were going to have anyway, instead of just doing a play date, say, come over and bring some stuff. We'll throw in the combined household store and we're all just shop together. I think that would be a fun play date. You need to make sure that the amount of money that's been paid out in both economies is approximately equal or else you have an exchange rate problem. If you have a smaller family, you should go more quickly to everyone in the economy having their own business. Because you start a mini economy with assigning jobs. It's a little bit top down. Right. But when everyone gets their own business, it becomes not very top down at all.

42:50You know, Robbie's making coffee. Daisy's writing books. Calvin is making cardboard figures. I'm talking with Lucy now about what her business could be. Then what happens is you have a circular flow of economic activity. Everybody's expenditure is another person's income. Everybody's income is another person's expenditure. It creates a setting where parents must ask the kids their opinion. It's your business. What do you want to sell for? I had this happen with Robbie in the coffee, actually. He wanted to charge two day bucks per day, which is$1 a day to make coffee. I thought it was a bit too— No, no, he asked for three day bucks,$1.50.

43:31I thought it was a little too expensive. And I said, you know, Robbie, I think that's too expensive. So you pay him. I pay him. You pay him for his service in handing you that. Exactly. His business is barista. He's a barista. Yeah, and this is his own business, you know. Does he have to purchase the coffee beans? Well, no, because he would if he was, but we were going to do that anyway, right? His business is entirely the making of the coffee. Got it. In the case of the kids writing their books, I wouldn't be doing those editing services unless they had written the book. So they had to pay me.

44:04They had to compensate me for that. When I was a kid, we had a lemonade stand. And we were shocked when my dad charged us for the lemonade from the pantry. And I said, Dad, it was free. It came from the pantry. He said it was not free. And I remember my mom sidles up next to him and was all like, Harlan, do you think maybe just this one time we can let them keep the total revenue? And he was appalled. He said, I will not have them going through life thinking that productive resources are free. And so we had to pay him back the real cost of the lemonade. We made almost no profit. But I learned what it costs to produce goods and services and sell them.

44:48So to your original question way back, an only child wouldn't have the siblings to back them up and standing up to the parents so much. But I say in that case, you move faster to the household businesses. And that means that there must be negotiation. It's not about rules so much as it is prices. and it creates that circular flow of economic activity that really calls the kid to be responsible. Right. A lot of parents kind of struggle with a vision for how to teach their kids about money at all, but some of them don't ever intend to teach their kids about money because money is not something that we talk about.

45:24You know, this is something that dad takes care of, period. You know, having a system that says this is possible and it's this game that you play and it doesn't put parents on the hook about their own real money. It doesn't make them discuss their finances with the kids. For a lot of parents, their finances are in disarray. They don't want to model finances to their kids. You know, they're ashamed of it. Other parents do have good finances, but they don't know what to say. Others have whatever the state of their finances. Money is a private thing in this house and we don't really talk about it.

46:00But if you have a play money system, then I think you can talk about it. Because you can come at it instead of the, it's less intimidating and the stakes are a little lower if you say, this is one step up from play. You know, we're making a play money store. It's a thing that we can do together and it's fun. If you're an only child, maybe all three people or all two, you know, you might have a single parent family, should both have businesses. If you start to have only two or three people at your house, it's a little better to maybe invite one other family in and say we're going to play store, we're doing this little economy, can you do this with us?

46:38So I would invite someone else in in that case. Right. So essentially if the economy shrinks to be too small, there's a lack of external feedback that can lead to it being a little bit too insular. I think so. I think especially if there were only two people, I would say for a family with one child, which friend do you hang out with that you have playdates with and say, here's what we're doing. We're paying them for chores this week with this play money. What we want you to do, can you come over and for the play date, we want to make this money together, like color it. The kids love to color the money and design it and make it.

47:15That's just a fun thing. Then we'll do our little jobs and then we'll have a little store. together. I mean, that's just play, you know? And it gets you a little momentum. You know, the stakes are real low. It doesn't, it's not a system that takes over your whole house or anything like that. It's just, you can do a mini economy with any level of commitment that you want, big commitment or tiny commitment, or big commitment all the way down to just game. Anyone can do it.

47:54You talked about the importance of that work happening in community. So you start Saturday with a morning meeting and then everyone works together at the same time. Yeah. How does that translate, though, to Monday through Friday? You can increase or decrease the intensity of the mini economy as much as you want. Yeah, you can have more family work or less family work, more jobs or fewer jobs. it does require a little organization. During the school year, we only do mini economy on Saturdays. They do their chore, they do the store, that's it. We're so busy with soccer and school and homework and friends and things that we don't have a lot of time for other things.

48:36So mini economy gets scaled back during the school year. And we're just not done at all. And we used to not do it during the school year. What would happen for people who are listening to this who are trying to implement a mini economy in their own home. But the feedback that they get to a plan like that is, hey, I would like to work more so that I have discretionary income to be able to purchase these additional goods and services or goods and privileges. But there's a lack of job opportunity. Oh, boy. I mean, that's a good problem to have right there, right? I mean, your child comes to you and says, I need more work because I have a goal.

49:17I mean, if that's your problem, then you're already winning, you know, that's the thing to start thinking through and talking through them with. I say if they want an opportunity to be more productive, to sell more stuff because they have a goal, that's a time when a parent should, I mean, drop what they're doing and help them. Say yes. Let's get you some more work. Let's teach you some new stuff. If you are personally paying them, I mean, pay them. They're really growing into another level of responsibility. And if they become so good that they're earning dozens of dollars a week and you can't keep up with it, then maybe they're time, you know, it's time for some work outside the house.

50:00So how does this work when the kids become old enough that they do start taking on jobs outside of the home. They turn 14 or 15. They get a job at the drive-thru of McDonald's. They get a job as a lifeguard. How do they balance work at home versus paid work outside of the home? And do the economies need to match up in terms of hourly rates? Yeah, great question. I think we have a little bit better apparatus already for teenagers to make money. You know, there's the babysitting, there's the lawn mowing, the traditional jobs. I say what you definitely want to do is when your teen starts earning real money, make sure they have a bank account.

50:45And make sure that they have savings, either for a goal or a certain percentage. Get that in early. You can still have them do the donation box. My parents did that when I was a kid. We had to give a certain amount of money also to donate and to church. and those categories get the kids already thinking about budgeting earlier it's not called a budget but they understand that when they get money some of it's spoken for they have fixed costs they have responsibility money doesn't come into your pocket it's just used all for spending on stuff that you want kids should know really early that money has responsibilities when it comes in the door.

51:26So when your teen gets a job, you should still have those, quote, jars, share, save, spend, though the save might actually go into a bank, to let them know the money's spoken for. Some of it is. I really encourage parents to help their kids invest, even when they're young. Buy a share of a mutual fund together. Buy a share of, some people would disagree with me on this, but I'd say even a single stock. I know buying a single stock isn't great investment strategy, but I think it's a good teaching strategy because it's very tangible. The kids can think about it more easily. That gets them also thinking about college savings as well.

52:06Do we have money saved for college? Well, as a matter of fact, we do have a 529 account. And you know how we have a mutual fund together, you know, the stock that you have, that's like what we have in college, you know, for saving for college. Research shows that if kids know that there's college saving at all, they're more likely to go. All these conversations about money, they really flow more easily when the kids have their own income. You set a few basic rules about what we as a family do with money when we get it, using that family culture to get some momentum. And then start dipping your toe into investing.

52:43And then, you know, then they're ready when they graduate. Especially 529 accounts, you can now roll them over to IRAs. Right. If you have leftover money when the kids graduate. And, you know, the finances of that to the side, what a great teaching opportunity. Child is 17 years old and knows that any money they save from going to college from their 529 account can get put into retirement when they're 22. Show them that compound interest calculator, which they can get at, The real fun one is at econedlink.org. Econ? Econedlink.org, yeah. It's from the Council for Economic Education. It has an animated one.

53:23Oh. So you can punch in your numbers and just see the money. We'll link to that in the show notes. Yeah, see it grow. Just showing that to kids when they're young, it really motivates them. My dad taught us that when we were 17. My brother went to the Marine Corps. He was 18. Right after boot camp, he started to get his paychecks, and he had them automatically routed into a Roth IRA. And he found that the Marines in his platoon were wasting money right and left because they didn't know what else to spend their money on. You know, they're on base. And he, I think two of them, he pulled them aside and set up Roth IRAs and showed them how to automate their savings.

54:03And so now there's a few Marines out there who at age 18 had my brother guide them to automate their savings. I think kids should really be thinking about that, even when they're teenagers. We're coming to the end of our time. Do you have any final words of advice for people who are listening who want to set up a mini economy in their home? Well, first I'd say, for words of comfort, if you have started building executive function in your kids by being a good parent generally when they're young, then you've already started. You've given them those building blocks where they can self-regulate going through life.

54:41So there's many ways in which we're already doing things right. So good job, parent. If you read the book in its entirety, I think it starts off talking about how to do a mini economy. But I've noticed as I've read it that you come away with a sense of how to build boundaries and structure and using words for when we're working, why we're working, what we use money for, what we as a family do, what your habits are, what our money norms are, what our goals and values are. And you can really develop a way to speak about that. And even if you're not doing a mini economy at home, I think that the book can really still help parents get an idea of how we think and talk about money and how we set structure.

55:30Because really, parenting is all about structure. You set structures and boundaries that your kids can have freedom and autonomy in so they can start to learn to grow and then we start to widen those boundaries as they get older and they grow and they can start to become more autonomous people who can contribute more and more and gain more and more confidence. It is awesome to see what they can do. You know, they will surprise you with how talented they are. You just need to provide a bit of a foundation, you know? About doing a household mini economy, it takes a bit of thought and planning. And I know our lives are so busy and things are crazy, but how else are you going to give them practice when they're elementary ages with money?

56:22Elementary grades are when kids develop habits and norms. They ought to develop some habits and norms about money. how are you going to talk with them about money in general? Parents just tend to not really have a way to do this. So I think it's worth doing. You know, we watch what we eat that takes effort. We do some exercise that takes effort. There's lots of things that take effort that we do with our kids. I think it's worth setting aside a little time to learn how to have a bit of a system and a plan for how we're teaching our kids about money. And kids need practice. You know, they don't just need head knowledge when they're in elementary grades.

57:02In fact, they don't really absorb a ton of head knowledge a lot of the time, but they do absorb habits. Kids need practice to develop habits, and that's what we can give them.

57:15Thank you to Dr. Stephen Day, the director of the Center for Economic Education at Virginia Commonwealth University and the author of Teach a Kid to Save. So what are three key takeaways that we got from this conversation? Key takeaway number one, kids don't need lectures about money. They need to put in their reps. They need to form habits. And that happens through repetition. A lot of adults look back on their childhood and say, I didn't learn about money when I was a kid. My parents never taught me about money. And often as grownups, when we think back on that, we might fill in the blank by imagining discussion, but what is actually required is practice.

58:01Stephen talks in this interview about how habits form long before we learn how to read spreadsheets. As kids, we don't need explanations. Kids need repeated, low-stakes chances to make choices between a little bit now versus more later because repeating the habit of making those choices, that is a habit that then carries into adulthood. The problem is that elementary grades are when kids develop habits and norms and routines. And if they don't develop any habits and norms about money, then you can miss the boat. And I really think that this is where we need to teach kids. Kids need to practice.

58:47That is the first key takeaway. Key takeaway number two, paying kids for things doesn't ruin motivation, but confusion does. Confusion ruins motivation. There are many parents who worry that paying for chores will kill intrinsic motivation. Dr. Stephen Day flips this on its head. He says that the issue isn't money, it's clarity. Because if kids understand why they're doing something, if they know that the reason is family responsibility versus the reason is paid work versus the reason is service to their broader community, well, then they get it. And receiving payment reinforces a feeling of competence and a feeling of value.

59:28And that's quite similar to how we act as adults, right? Motivation, our motivation to do our jobs is a mixture of intrinsic and extrinsic factors. Research shows that adults enjoy their jobs more if their jobs have a sense of purpose. But obviously, in addition to a sense of purpose, we also need compensation. Just as adults have a mix of intrinsic and extrinsic, kids do too, but there just has to be clarity around it. All humans, even kids, can think in categories, which means that you can pay them for some jobs, but not for other jobs. It's really that simple, actually. The jobs that you should not pay them for are work that they're already doing, things for which there are already expectations in place.

1:00:15Finally, key takeaway number three. When kids earn, spend, and save their own money, they stop negotiating and start choosing. And so one of the benefits of a mini economy is behavioral because when kids have a sense of control and autonomy over the tradeoffs, then the parents no longer have to be the gatekeeper. So there's no begging. There's no emotional bargaining. The kids get to make the decisions. That's a skill that's incredibly valuable for adult life. What the kids learn through just bugging their parents to get stuff is that the way you get goods and privileges in life is by going to the parental authority or whoever's in charge and bugging them for it.

1:01:00There's no cost to them to bug you. Might as well just do it. Right. It's a hassle for the parent, and they don't learn any kind of self-regulation from it. Those are three key takeaways from this conversation with Dr. Stephen Day. Thank you so much for being part of the Afford Anything community. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share this with your friends, families, neighbors, colleagues, with the parents of the other kids at your school, with your siblings, with your uncles and aunts. Share this with all of the people in your life because that's how you spread the message of great financial practices, financial habits, financial health, and F-I-I-R-E.

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1:02:25Thank you so much for being part of this community. My name is Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything Podcast, and I'll meet you in the next episode.