Q&A: My Dream Job Won't Wait If I Take a Family Gap Year — Do I Quit Anyway?

28:25And it also, when you have that framework that I'm just collecting data and you look at life as like it's a science experiment, you get more playful and you get less up in your, you know, up in, oh my goodness, everything's got to be perfect. Everything's not going to be perfect. So if you, I think, retool your imagination around, I'm gathering data here. This gap year while my kids are eight years old, we're figuring out what we might want to do as a family next time. You know, and you walk out of a restaurant that sucks or you, you know, stay a month in a community that you don't like, you get done.

29:07Everybody's high fiving themselves going, that sucked. I never have to do that again, you know, and all of a sudden instead of being bad, it's good. It's good. So I love Ben's take on that, that bad data is good data. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you, Jamie. Amy. We're going to take a break to hear from the sponsors who make this show possible. And when we return, we are going to hear from Kevin, who wants to know if he and his spouse should stop maxing out their IRAs while they pay down a house. When we were kids, summer meant freedom. No homework, no teachers, no school. And as adults, summer still means freedom, thanks to Mint Mobile's summer sale.

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32:09and listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to indeed.com slash podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. I write about pretty heavy topics. The economy, investing, it can get granular, it can get a little bit nerdy. And so I wanted to learn how do I write in a way that's engaging? And so I turned to R.L. Stein. Do you remember him? He wrote the Goosebumps books.

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34:06Welcome back. Our next question comes from Kevin. Hi, Paula and Joe. Should we suspend maxing our IRAs while we pay down a house? I know mathematically it might make more sense to invest, but I would just feel less anxious if I buried the debt. We're expecting to pay for a$400 ,000 to$500 ,000 home in the near future. We have about $130 ,000 set aside for a down payment. I will tell you a little bit about my family's financial situation but won't go into too many details. Our family has a net worth of 1.1 million. We are a single income family with a 96k salary. We have a lot of random side hustles like selling my wife's sourdough at our window that bring in approximately 2 to 6k per year.

34:50We probably spend about 55 to 60k per year to support our family with four children. I think we are coast-fi now. I'm aiming to have a net worth between$2 and$3 million to close the gap with our term policy and also to fund college expenses. We got here by aggressively investing and cutting costs in the last decade. We live in a large American city that is relatively affordable and has great walkability in public transit. We were able to save and invest a lot of money by staying car-free until our third child was born. We now only have one car that we maybe drive 10 miles in a week. My goal is to maximize the time that my wife and I can spend with our children.

35:33She isn't interested in taking any full-time work at this time. I live a 15-minute walk from work, and I'm not interested in different job opportunities. We love our neighborhood and don't want to move, even if it is a tad expensive. I'm still getting my 6 % employer match and maxing our HSA contributions, but I'm finding it harder and harder to also max our IRAs at the same time. I'd like to continue maxing out my IRA because it feels good, but I also think it might be better put towards a house, especially with these high interest rates. Paul and Joe, what would you do? Kevin, I love the question, and I think you said it all.

36:16There was one sentence that you said that I think contained the answer in which you said, I know mathematically it might make more sense to invest, but I would just feel less anxious if I buried the debt. What is the purpose of, not to get too esoteric, but what is the purpose of money? At its most basic level, it is survival, safety and survival. You've got that covered. Check. Then as you go up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, now that your physical safety and survival is taken care of. Next, you need that psychological and that emotional sense of safety. Getting rid of anxiety, knowing that you're debt-free, there is tremendous mental relief that comes with that.

37:08If it helps, you can think of the mathematical delta as that is the cost of buying that relief, but I wouldn't even necessarily think of it like that. you've run the numbers, you know the math, and having this debt hanging over your head, it's like a shadow that will impact your quality of life. And so I would focus on paying off that debt and stop making IRA contributions, especially given that you're getting your employer match and you're maxing out your HSAs. So you're still making contributions into these long-term tax-advantaged accounts, right? It's not like you're halting all retirement contributions.

37:53You're just refraining from one specific account. Before I dive into what my thoughts are, can we just acknowledge something? Yeah. How far he got ahead with a family with four kids and not high income, not high income. Yeah. He has done, they have done really, really well. And this is what blew me away, Paula, when I was a financial planner, was seeing people like Kevin and Kevin's family and their ability to save, their ability to prioritize what the things are that would make their life, that would make them happy without going into too much debt, without giving up savings, like actually continuing to save and max stuff out.

38:37When you've got a family of six, that blew me away. I thought that was fantastic. I was thinking that too, when he said that they spend between$55 ,000 to$60 ,000 per year with four children. Yeah, yeah. Six people collectively spending between$55 ,000 to$60 ,000 per year. That's incredible. You know, Kevin, I always worry about the concept of Coast Fi, only because of the fact that Coast Fi comes to the assumption that things in the past are going to continue the way that they were into the future. and we're just going to coast into it based on the past. I'm pretty comfortable with it. Before you make this move, I want to know what the cost is.

39:20I always want to know what the cost is beforehand. So in other words, if I funnel money that is for this future into instead this new home and avoiding debt, I want to know what the cost is. That said, I think my bias, Paula, is a lot like yours. And, you know, when we evaluate individual stocks, what do we look at? One of the primary things we look at is free cash flow. And we already know that a family of six, and this is another reason I wanted to high five Kevin immediately, is that cash flow, there cannot be a lot of free cash flow in Kevin's life. There can't be. So to me, preserving free cash flow as much as you possibly can, when you're moving into a house that might be a little bit over your head, I think is a valuable, valuable tool.

40:12I think we fall in love with the interest rate thing and, you know, okay, leave money invested as much as possible. I think free cash flow is going to be really important to his future success as, you know, stuff's going to come up. We don't know what that is. So I'm on board with funneling money into a lower mortgage on this house, as long as I know what the cost is ahead of time. I just don't want it to be a surprise. I don't want to go, man, should I have, would I have? I like having the options right in front of me. You know, if I'm pulling money out of my 401k to pay off a high interest rate debt, and I know I'm going to pay the 10 % penalty, I know I'm going to take the tax hit.

40:56Sometimes if the debt is egregious enough, if it's like a loan shark debt, sometimes that actually makes sense, Paula. But I still want to do the math to know if I would have left this alone and left it for retirement, what would it have been? Right. And then I make the decision with my eyes open. This is not that case. But in any case, I want to know what the opportunity cost is before I make the move. I mean, just, you know, things that jump out at me, like you make$96 ,000 a year, you spend between$55 ,000 to$60 ,000 a year. You have a very, very strong savings rate, and you've been able to set aside$130 ,000 as the down payment for your next home.

41:41You've been able to build a net worth of$1.1 million. I mean, the financial management that you have done is just so, so superb. And I mean, with a net worth of$1.1 million, 4 % of that is$40 ,000 a year. He's already almost at his lifestyle. Yeah, exactly. And that's not too far away from what you currently spend. And so you are so very, very on track that to redirect some money towards paying off a mortgage, something that's going to really decrease your anxiety, and Joe, to your point, that will also improve your monthly bills, improve your cash flow, that sounds like a very worthwhile goal.

42:27I know I started this podcast by saying I like to not tell people what to do, but give them a framework for thinking. But it's hard for me. I'll just admit it's hard for me to even try to steel man the opposite argument. Yeah. Yeah. To your point, I mean, let's just let's just say it out loud so we know how it feels, Paula. Having a bigger mortgage that makes things feel really tight every time he comes home. And he's, you know, maybe not wondering how he's going to make the mortgage payment. but it certainly would affect my brain, which ends up making showing up at your job different, I think, every day.

43:05When you go into your job and you could hear how much it sounded like he loves his job, he's not looking for other opportunities. He likes going into work every day. He gets to walk 15 minutes to his work. How great is that? And then he's at a job that he likes. So all of these cool lifestyle things that he has in his corner, now he's going there on the 15 minute walk and he's thinking, I have to go today because this mortgage is so damn high. And that could affect whether you like it or not. And I've seen it affect people and how they like it. So I'm with you. I don't think the other side makes any sense at all.

43:42Yeah. I don't know what the outstanding mortgage balance is on your home. one. I don't think he, you know, it's funny, Paula, as I mentioned, I'm here with Chris Luger's house. So Chris helped me prep for today. And I thought originally that he already had a house and Chris goes, no, that's just the way that he phrased. The question is pay down debt. I don't think he owns the house yet. I think he's talking about the future house. I don't think he's buying a second home. Oh, I thought, oh, okay. I interpreted this to mean he currently owns a home, but he's planning on buying a different home in the future that will be between 400 ,000 to 500 ,000.

44:25Maybe it is a little confusing, but when I think about it, his goal is not to have two homes. His goal is only to have one. So I think the question is, how do I get into this house? I see. I see. You're opening up my head. Yeah. Okay. Yes. I see. All right. I interpreted it the way you did it first too. And Chris is like, no. And then we went back and listened to it like three times. All right. In my head, I was thinking he currently is living in a home with a mortgage and he also has$130 ,000 set aside for a down payment for his next home. Yeah. And so in my head, I was thinking, okay, once his current home is fully paid off free and clear, then he's going to have choices.

45:07He can either sell it and just have a big lump sum that he then uses to buy the next home or he can hold it and use it as a rental for some supplemental income. He's got choices. Yeah. Which is still, by the way, there are people in that situation. And I think that still is great. I think there's still this flexibility for people that are in that situation. I don't think that's the case here, but that is something. How many calls have we answered like that where somebody, they're moving out and what do I do with the proceeds? I think we did that, offshoot of that kind of last week, didn't we? $130 ,000 set aside for the down payment.

45:41The home's going to cost between$400 ,000 to$500 ,000. We'll just take the middle number and say it'll be$450 ,000. $320 ,000 would be the mortgage. Accelerating that payoff. Yeah. Yeah. That'll be a number. It's a big enough mortgage that it will take many, many years to pay it down. Yeah. But putting more money toward it to make that payment smaller, I think is a good thing. I agree. By the way, this brings up something else, Paula, while you're on that point. I also think that looking at a 30-year and a 15-year mortgage here, a lot of people that want to pay off debt early will go with the 15-year.

46:25This may be a case, which we're talking about, the big thing in my head is free cash flow. I would look at the 30, but I would try to pay it off at an accelerated rate. Yeah, exactly. Take the 30, but pay it off in 10. Yeah. And this is CFO thinking. People in their everyday lives think that whatever the bank gives me, I have to take that. Like if, okay, they said 15 year loan, I'm paying off in 15 years, 30-year loan and pay it off in 30 years. A CFO will take the best loan option they can get for the company that preserves cash flow, and then they'll create their own amortization schedule to pay it off however the hell they want.

47:09That really fits what's going on in their life. So, yeah, yeah, pay it off in 10 years, pay it off in 12. Who cares what the bank asks for? Give them what fits you. Exactly. But take the 30 because it gives you a smaller monthly payment. so then you have flexibility so that that way if there's an emergency, if something unexpected happens, you still have that cash flow flexibility. Especially with the needs of a six-person household. Yeah, exactly. You never know if there's going to be someone gets sick or anything. Plus, I assume both have parents who might be getting up there in age. So you never know.

47:48So it's good to have that flexibility. Yeah. It's an exciting spot for you, Kevin. But yes, yes, we're both on board the pay off the mortgage train. Thank you, Kevin, for the question. We're going to take one final break to hear from the sponsors who make the show possible. When we return, we are going to hear from Joe. What? Yeah. Best name ever. Joe has a question about sinking funds, using sinking funds for paying for college. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more.

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49:57Welcome back. Our final question today comes from Joe. Hey, Paul and Joe. This is Joe. I have been listening since the J Money days long, long time ago. I am catching back up on the last several weeks worth of recordings. In podcast 736, you had answered a caller, Mike, who is looking to retire early in 12 years, with a daughter hitting college roughly about the same time. I'm kind of surprised you didn't mention sinking funds, which is something I had done for my kids as they were entering and coming out through college. This meant that I had far less capital than I needed. So, for instance, I figured I needed several hundred thousand dollars to take care of my daughters and niece as they were going through college and setting themselves up.

50:56If I wanted to cash flow it, I would have needed like five to six times more capital. and then I would have had several thousand dollars a month more than I needed for my household after they finished all of their college stuff. So just a quick thought of why not suggest sinking funds if the college funds needed are going to be$100 ,000,$120 ,000. it's going to be much easier to set aside$120 ,000 than to set aside the four to six times more capital needed to be able to cash flow$120 ,000 over the course of four years. So just wanted to put that two cents in. It worked incredibly well for me to set up sinking funds for each of the daughters for their college, for their launch, and now starting for their weddings.

51:59So thanks much. And looking forward to another 10 years plus of Afford Anything or whatever else it is that is next. Thanks. Wow, Joe, first of all, great name. Thank you for being a listener since the J Money days. Long time listener, first time caller. Yeah, exactly. Thank you for being part of this community for so long. For people who are wondering what that's a reference to, when this podcast first started, episode number one, I had a co-host by the name of J Money. And this was not actually called the Afford Anything podcast at the time. This was called the Money Show, monyshow.co. So I think we just got rid of that URL actually, maybe a year or two ago.

52:47Wow. So blast from the past. Thank you for being part of this community for so long? Joe, what's interesting is there was a piece of that question when it was originally asked, which really lit me up personally, which was the fact, Paula, that when it comes to the timeline of your goals, because we don't do that, we often don't look at how two things intersect at the same time. And while answering that question, I believe we We got so focused on the fact that we really need to look at there's going to be friction. And even with the sinking fund, and we'll get to this part there, there's still going to be friction.

53:32Having had two kids go through college, and it sounds like, Joe, you did too, that, you know, my kids, we did a great job of saving for college. I can still, we're expensive as all get out during their college years. And there were always times when it would disrupt whatever other things Cheryl and I had going on. So the emphasis for me was on the piece I thought that people did not know or didn't think about enough, which was goals often overlap. And when we put them out visually, which we often don't do, we just write out our goals, right? People say, don't write out your goals. Draw your goals.

54:13Put the ages so that you know how this goal is going to fight against this goal, because that happens all the time. And then you can have these value-based conversations. In the heat of the moment, what it sounds like we missed, though, was the obvious thing, which is, of course, when your kids three start saving for their college. I don't use the term sinking fun only because as a guy that wasn't originally a money guy, You know, my degree in college was in English. I came at money from this outside world. And when I heard the term sinking fund, I swear to God, Paula, it took me 18 months to figure out what the hell that even meant.

54:55Yeah. I got no idea. What sinking fund means is putting a separate fund aside, like a 529 plan, and saving for it so that the interest can do the hard lifting. So I don't use terminology like sinking fund because for me, it obfuscates what we're just trying to do, which is put money aside. Let's put money aside, put it off in its own little silo, take care of it that way. Clearly, when we can do that with college, then it gets rid of some of the friction of having those two goals together. But my point that maybe I made too much of and didn't make enough of, yes, save for this separately so that there's money there, was that even with money there on the side, there's still going to be friction.

55:47Yeah, I think the benefit of both the 529 plan as well as the newly formed 530A plan is in addition to the tax advantages, tax advantages are, of course, the dangling carrot that gets people there. But the behavioral benefit and the psychological benefit is that when you put money into either a 529 or a 530A, you know you are mentally bucketing that money. Money in a 529 is just mentally bucketed as college savings. Money in a 530A is mentally bucketed as money for that kid. And that kind of bucketing is behaviorally the best way to manage money, particularly when you have a wide variety of goals.

56:40That's actually also one of the benefits of retirement accounts. You really just have these buckets of money that are fundamentally, what is a 401k or an IRA? At its core, it is a deal between you and the government in which the government agrees to give you a tax break in exchange for you agreeing not to tap those funds until you reach a certain age. So we call them retirement accounts. That's actually not fully accurate because the word retirement references an occupation or a lack of having an occupation, right? It references a career status or an occupational status. But in fact, a 401k or an IRA is unrelated to your occupational status.

57:33It's just an age-based account. Yeah, exactly. It's an age-restricted account. It is purely an account that says, we're going to give you a tax break in exchange for you not being able to touch this money until you reach a certain age. And that's all there, regardless of your occupational status. And that's all there is to it. And so that kind of mental bucketing becomes very valuable in financial planning. And fundamentally, that's what a sinking fund is. A sinking fund is just money that is bucketed for a given purpose. and you can do that in a variety of ways. You can do it through the various tax advantaged accounts.

58:13You could also do that just by opening the type of savings account. There are a few financial institutions that do this. A savings account that lets you create multiple sub accounts, and then you just put a label on every single sub account. And people will typically do this for shorter term goals. Maybe you have a vacation goal or a travel goal. So if you've got a vacation coming up in a year and you want to save$100 a month towards that vacation over the span of the next year, some labeled sub-account inside of a savings account is a way of creating that mental bucketing. And it's especially great for people who, you know, they don't want to dip into the emergency fund, although I often look at it as emergencies and opportunities, right?

59:02Having that vacation fund is a separate thing where I now am taking the vacation, not coming out of my retirement money, which really isn't retirement money, not coming out of my college money, which are these other buckets. I've got it separated. That is the definition of what Joe's talking about, sinking fund. Good stuff, Joe. So glad you pointed that out because I feel like I won't speak for Paula, but sometimes I get so excited about the piece that people don't think about that I feel like Paula. Maybe sometimes I don't emphasize enough the obvious one that's right in front of me. Save for that goal.

59:38Put it in a bucket. Yeah, put it in a bucket. Yeah. What I like about the analogy of a bucket is that it's so visual. Rather than having this big amorphous pile of money, you have, you can almost imagine a bunch of buckets. But you can imagine like when you're a kid, mason jars filled with allowance money. Right, right. It's visually the same concept. Right. Thank you, Joe. And thank you for being such a longtime part of this community. I was going to say you're welcome, but you're not talking to me. Well, Joe, Joe, Saul, see hi. Oh, Joseph Andrew. Oh, no. Only mom does that one. Joseph Andrew.

1:00:23I think we've done it again. We have three great questions and just exciting opportunities. People are, you know, these things that people are doing, making sure that they're able to live this lifestyle that they want in the case of Kevin, but in the case of Jamie, you know, having this great opportunity for her family. Absolutely. Joe, where can people find you if they'd like to learn more? Oh, next week, Linda Gratton is going to blow up your world. But thinking about we're going to live a hundred years, Paula, it's really cool. It's actually something that it's actually the whole time I'm talking to Linda, I'm like, Paula would love this conversation.

1:01:01Oh, wow. It's a Paula conversation, isn't it? Like just blow up the whole 30 and out or my career's here, my retirement's here. What if we envision a hundred years of actually many retirements all the way along? It's kind of like when you were a kid and you were looking into the future, how cool it was when I would watch the Jetsons and they'd talk to each other, you know, with video playing instead of just on a corded phone, like, oh my God, the future. And now it's a Zoom call and we hate it. You know? Yeah. Or didn't they have a cleaning robot, which was basically like the precursor to the Roomba?

1:01:39That's right. That's right. Yeah. Except the Roomba doesn't wear a little maid outfit like yours did. So one star Roomba. I want the maid outfit on my Roomba. Yeah. But anyway, so it is a look into the future a little bit. And really this, I love it when we get so broad that we blow it up. We blow it all up and go, what if all the constructs we're using are wrong? what if we took a sabbatical next year and then another one seven or eight years from now what if it went back to college when i'm 50 and that was normal paula it was normal to go back to college when i'm 50 because i need to think about my next career between 55 and 70 right yeah pretty cool thinking so whether you agree or not i think linda gratton is a great thing and that's going to be next Wednesday on Stacking Veguments.

1:02:28Amaze. And by the way, one more shout out if you don't mind. Chris Luger's got a great podcast called Heavy Metal Money. Big thanks to him for letting me hang out in his mom's basement instead of my own. Awesome. Well, thank you to all of you for being part of this community. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with friends, family, neighbors, colleagues. Share it with the people that you meet on your family sabbatical. Share it with the people you meet on your 15-minute walk to work. Share it with the people that you meet at Parents Weekend at college. Oh, share it with Joe's daughters.

1:03:03Sounds like Joe's got a couple daughters. Yeah, yeah. Share it with the real estate agent and the housing inspector and your loan officer, like all of the people involved. The housing inspector. Yeah. I know what I'm here in the attic, but I got a show for you. Yeah, exactly. As you're in the crawl space, like inspecting the foundation. Hey, that person's going to need something to listen to, like something in their earbuds as they're inspecting the house. A hundred percent. Why not? So share it with all of these people and more, because that is the single most important way that you spread the message of F-I-I-R-E.

1:03:42Also, make sure that you're following us in your favorite, absolute favorite podcast player, whether that's Apple Podcasts or Spotify or Pandora on YouTube, where we live stream this so you get to see the raw, unedited version. If you haven't joined us on YouTube yet, youtube.com slash affordanything, please go there, hit the follow button, hit the notification bell, all of the above. Come say hello, comment on one of our videos. We love our YouTube community. So yes, please join us on YouTube. We've got a free workbook, affordanything.com slash F-I-I-R-E. it's filloutable and interactive and you can use it as a guide to figure out where you know your relationship with the five pillars of double i fire so download it for free at affordanything.com slash f double i r e f i i r e thank you so much for tuning in this is the afford anything podcast i'm paula pant i'm joe sulci hi and we'll meet you in the next episode