Q&A: When Being Good With Money … Isn't Good Enough

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27:46Our next question comes from Reese. Hey, Paula and Joe. This is Reese from episode 417. You guys give me some great advice about long-term disability insurance because I have depression. That was a couple of years ago.

28:07I'm what your opinion is now that my situation has changed. I was recently laid off from my job. Big bummer. And I enrolled in COBRA coverage, which was painfully expensive, but I already have met my$7 ,000 out of pocket max because I tore my ACL earlier this year. And I was like, there's no point in a marketplace plan with a new deductible. And I might not be able to keep my physical therapist. So anyway, I enrolled in COBRA. That was a little bit of an easier decision. because I knew that I needed medical insurance. Now I've actually, before I understood that COBRA is retroactive, I was afraid to leave my house because I was like, what if I get hit by a car?

28:46It was terrible. Anyway, your girl's no insured. My question is, should I continue my, it was an employee paid long-term disability insurance through my former employer. I just got the letter. I'm wondering if you guys have any perspective on this. On one hand, I obviously I'm looking for another job. Realistically, that could take six months to a year. But the risk of me becoming disabled long term in that time feels a lot lower than the risk of me needing healthcare, mostly because I'm still recovering from this ACL repair, and I know I'll need healthcare, or I'll get sick or something, you know, something will go wrong.

29:25But the chances of me being disabled for a long time, and running out of money and needing to draw on that are much lower. Should I wait and not continue the coverage and just get another employer-provided plan? And if my next employer just doesn't offer that benefit, get long-term disability insurance on the private marketplace? In my brain, continuing COBRA made sense because I'd already met the year's deductible in February. So switching plans would be silly to pay almost the same premium but have a new deductible. but that isn't the same with long-term disability insurance. Does it make sense to keep the same plan and provider over a long-term or can I just kind of switch with impunity and not have an issue?

30:13Would love your perspective. If you have any, I have decision fatigue. I have figured out way too many things that I never thought I'd have to figure out in the last couple of weeks. So I would really love some things to think about and any advice you might have. Thank you guys so much. You guys always give such great advice. Oh, Reese, first of all, I'm so sorry to hear that you got laid off. And second, I can hear the decision fatigue in your voice. So the first thing that I would recommend is take a breath because I can hear that you're overthinking this. I don't want to downplay the importance of what you're thinking through.

30:45But sometimes it's so easy to get in your head about all of the multitude of possibilities and to see how the roads can fork in an infinite number of directions. And then that can quickly spiral. And when that happens, you can sometimes lose sight of the fact that you're already on a good track. You're handling things really well. And there are some more decisions to make, but in the grand scheme of things and in the 80-20 of it, you're on the right course already. And I think, Reese, to give yourself a little grace that this is a difficult decision. And as you can see, because of your thorough analysis of this, there frankly is no right decision.

31:26And we'll walk through it in a second. But whatever decision you make here, just knowing what the Achilles heel is of that decision is far, far, far more important. And accepting the decision you make is far more important than putting a lot of pressure on yourself to make, quote, the right decision. Because, Paula, I don't think there is a right decision here, but we can certainly help her with her thinking. Yeah. So, Reese, I agree with the assessment of keep the COBRA. You've already met the deductible. No need to pay deductible twice in the same calendar year. So keep that. But when it comes to long-term disability insurance.

32:02Paula, before you get to long-term disability insurance, can I just add one thing on the COBRA? Oh, yeah, totally. What I would like to know, Reese, is because I 100 % agree with Paula. I think you made the right move there. But I always want to know the cost benefit of my decision. So if you haven't priced out on the open market, what coverages are going to be and what your cost you're paying now is versus the cost on the open market, I always want to know that because often we make assumptions and then we find out on the open market based on where we live and the things going on in our life.

32:36that those aren't true. And even if they are true, we get more information about when that might change and when the decision-making might change as we become more comfortable with the different options that are available. So you don't want to be an expert, but I would certainly go to your state's healthcare exchange and I would just price out very quickly. This is a one-hour thing to do. I would price that out. But that said, I'm with Paula. Over the short run, you've already met the deductible, no downside to sticking with the COBRA coverage. When it comes to long-term disability, there's no reason for you to necessarily stay with the same provider.

33:13If you're looking for your own plan, when you're pricing out those options, the big discount that you can obtain comes from having the longest possible elimination period. So from the time that a disability begins, what is the window of time for which you are ineligible for any type of benefit, after which a benefit would kick in. So if you have, let's say, a two-year elimination period, that's going to be far less expensive than a shorter period of time. What that means is that you would need enough savings to be able to float yourself if that were to be the case. You would need enough savings to be able to cover yourself for those two years.

33:51But I'd encourage you to start shopping out those plans right now because I think there's a decent chance that your next employer might not offer long-term disability. It's going to depend on the size of the employer. That tends to be a benefit that larger companies offer, but not a benefit that many small to mid-sized companies are able to offer. So I wouldn't necessarily count on being able to get it depending on who you end up working for next. And even large companies sometimes go really cheap. They will tell you that you're going to get X percentage of your income, let's say 60 % of your income, but they will also cap that number to a number like$3 ,000 or$4 ,000 a month, which could be for some people, 60 % of their income.

34:35But for others, as you get raises and promotions, may not even come close to covering it. There was often when I was a financial planner and even lately answering questions where people will send me their coverage because they think they have a number like 60%. And in that fine print, Paula, it shows that no, they're not covering that they think that they are. So looking at specifically what percentage of income that the disability coverage covers is a good part of prudent planning. Let me cover that as well. While I'm on the topic of it being a percentage of her income, the fact that it's a percentage of income and right now your income is zero, you're paying for a benefit that you can't receive because it's a percentage of what you make.

35:21That would imply that eliminating that coverage over the short term makes a bunch of sense until you get the new job because you're paying for something that you can't get. Some people will hold onto it though. And the reason why you hold onto this is you may have to prove insurability again in the future. And I can't guarantee and you can't guarantee that you'll be eligible for a long-term care policy in the future. Now, if it's a group policy, they can't discriminate against you as a piece of the group. So if your employer does offer it, you can easily latch on to their policy. But again, if they decide to go cheap, you're going to be at the whim of whatever they do.

36:01So clearly in a hierarchy of needs, if I'm looking at two policies, a healthcare policy and a long-term disability policy where you don't get the benefit, healthcare comes first because that's not based on a percentage of your income. That's based on if I get sick and, or if I need the coverage for whatever reason, I can use that coverage. The disability question, I think for that reason, Paula, is a little more nuanced because we can't predict the future and we don't know. So that's the reason I go back to knowing what the Achilles heel is. If I eliminate that on the short run, that seems like a good move because I'm saving this money in premium.

36:41The Achilles heel, what if I don't qualify in the future? What if my new employer goes cheap? I can't predict the future. I don't know what that is. But if you're willing to say okay to that Achilles heel and you know that going in, when you eliminate the coverage, then I think you're making a decision with your eyes wide open if you decide to eliminate it. I also just want to ask the question, how much does the long-term disability insurance offered through your previous employer, how much does that cost? I mean, how onerous is that bill? And I understand when you're unemployed, every bill feels like a burden, but how burdensome is that bill?

37:18Because especially if it's not overly burdensome, if it is a deal-withable amount, then I see an even stronger case for keeping it. And of course, you can shop individual plans as well, but generally speaking, anything offered through an employer is typically going to be cheaper than anything you find on your own. Because the employer is subsidizing that premium. But Reese, broadly speaking, you're doing great. You're taking care of your health. You're watching out for your future. You're managing your money well. You're thinking about how to take care of yourself in the short term as well as how to take care of yourself in the long term.

37:50I think you're doing a wonderful, wonderful job. So give yourself some grace and give yourself a round of applause. So best of luck with your job search and best of luck with that ACL on a related topic because we've just been talking about long-term disability. So our next question is not exactly about that, but it is about another financial planning element. It's long-term care. Long-term disability for older people. Yeah, exactly. So we're going to discuss that next.

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39:35This Friday, the NBA on Prime tips off with their debut doubleheader. First up, Boston brings the action to the garden as the Celtics face the New York Knicks. Then out west, it's a battle of the superpowers as the Lakers try to poster the relentless pace of the Minnesota Timberwolves. The Celtics and Knicks, who has the most hustle in defense? This game will come down to who wants it more. And the Timberwolves and the Lakers, it's two Western Conference heavyweights going toe-to-toe. Buckle up, folks. This one's going to be electric. Celtics-Knicks, T-Wolves and Lakers. Coverage starts Friday, 7 o 'clock Eastern, only on Prime.

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40:57Our final question today comes from Kip. Hi, Paula and Joe. My name is Kip, and I want you guys to know that I really appreciate the nuanced conversations that you guys provide on the show. I'm 47 and my wife is 48 and we live in a western suburb of Atlanta. Our youngest child, he just finished college and now personally, I'm ready to retire, mainly because I hate my job, but it provides a good living. So I keep doing it. I know my expenses today because we live very frugally and I can afford my current expenses if I quit. But the issue is that I have no way of knowing of what my future long-term care expenses may be.

41:40School and nursing facilities in my area cost about$10K per month, and you would multiply that by two because one for me and one for my wife. Based on the current 4 % rule, I definitely cannot afford that. I've checked into long-term care insurance policies and the cost, the caveats written into the policy, and the unknown escalating premiums make the policy seems less than ideal, maybe even outright crazy in some opinions. But I'll leave that for other people to decide. But it seems to me that the most prudent option is for me to just suck it up, keep working until I can save enough money to fund my own long-term care expenses if I need them in the future.

42:22And if not, you know, that can just be an inheritance for my kids down the line. Am I crazy or do you guys have a better option? Thanks in advance. And I appreciate all the insights you guys provide. Paula Kipp's phrasing long-term care premium price is, quote, outright crazy, 100 % accurate. This is the biggest conundrum for certified financial planning. This is 100 % the biggest issue in financial planning where CFPs wring their hands and go, this is tough. I want to start with some, well, first of all, I want to applaud you for, not just for thinking about this, but for everything that you've done, right?

42:58That you are working a job that you don't like, but you're doing it because it pays well and you've set yourself and your family up for a really, really strong financial present and financial future. You know, going to a job that you don't like, that's a big sacrifice. And you've made that sacrifice in order to provide for your family. So I want to applaud you for doing that. And I also want to help you leave that job because you're 47 years old. I want you to enjoy your late 40s and your 50s. So if you don't like your job, I want to create a path through which you can leave that job. And that you mentioned that you want to retire.

43:36That doesn't necessarily mean that you will stop doing absolutely any work that makes any money. But maybe there's something else, something different, maybe something lower paying, but that's more enjoyable, more aligned with your call. I want to create a pathway through which you can do work that's more, leave the job that you dislike and do work that's more rewarding, more fulfilling, more something that you're excited to wake up in the morning and go to where you feel like you're making an impact and you're making a difference and you're working with great people. And maybe it doesn't pay as well, but you're happy to do it and it lights you up and it's fulfilling.

44:12Yeah, exactly. Maybe solving this long term care question, Paula, will help him move into that. At least feel comfortable with it because you can hear his discomfort in how do I negotiate this and leave my job at the same time. So I want to start with some stats. First, the likelihood of both houses needing expensive long-term care simultaneously. Statistically, the likelihood of that is low. About the average stay in a skilled nursing facility is between two to three years. So it is true that about 70 % of people who are over the age of 65 are going to need some type of long-term care at some point in their senior years.

44:50But the average stay is two to three years rather than decades and decades. So it's also the case that many people receive either home care or assisted living rather than skilled nursing. And that is specifically what a long-term care policy pays, is not the skilled portion. Your health insurance will pay for that part or not? But it's that custodial care that those activities of daily living, they call it, that are really what the long-term care policy dives in. So activities of daily living, if you need assistance, buttoning a shirt, going to the bathroom, those types of activities. There are riders on certain policies that are specific to that.

45:29But that's where the costs really do go up quite a bit when it comes to that insurance. Yeah, every policy will specify how many daily activities of daily living you can't do before you qualify for it. So you want to know exactly what those are because the way to look at long-term care insurance is in the details of the policy. Kip's already looked at this. It sounds like you can't just look at the top line number. What's this going to cost? You have to see what it actually covers because you could pay on the surface, Paula, less money and never use that coverage. where if you pay a higher premium, then the chance of you actually using it goes up.

46:04That may end up being a quote, better deal and a better financial option than going with the budget insurance policy. But the idea of using insurance at all, I think the issue is a lot of people start with insurance and whether I should buy the insurance or not. And I don't even think that's the place to start. I think there's two places to start. Number one is what's the quality of care that you would expect for you. And really even more than you, I would phrase that because he's married, the quality of care for your spouse that you would want. So what's the quality of care that you are looking for?

46:40If late in your life, that doesn't matter a ton, that is going to open up a lot of options. If you want a high quality of care, that's going to point you toward more spending in that area and the insurance options become greater. The second piece is what would you do with your money if you and your spouse didn't spend it on yourselves? And for someone that's single, this becomes a little easier. Hopefully at that point in your life, when this would happen to you in the vast majority of situations, there's nobody else living in your house besides you. And so for a single person, you're just worried about you.

47:19For married people, there's the complication and you pointed to this earlier, Paula, if one of you goes into a long-term care facility or you need help at home, the other person, if they're still alive and they're healthy, you're draining the bank account very quickly while the other person still needs to live. So this is much more often a married conundrum than a single person conundrum with the exception of what do you want to do with your money afterwards? And single people and married people have very definite answers to that question. Almost like we talked about with the MMA cage match earlier for Jalen, everyone goes, well, duh, I want to make sure of XYZ.

47:58They feel very strongly about it, but I'll tell you it's different for everyone. If you're not worried about an inheritance, right? Which he mentioned inheritance. So I don't know, but if Kip's not worried about inheritance and he thinks he has enough money saved for one person to go through a long-term care experience, which generally lasts, if you, again, looking at statistics, about 36 months. Now, there's the exception, right? Grandma was in a long-term care facility for 12 years. Yes, that can happen. But if we just play the vast probability, which is what insurance is all about anyway, you're going to come up with a number that if you can afford one of you 36 months, you've vastly covered the majority of situations.

48:41So Kip, if you can retire and cover that, then I think that makes this easier. So then we get to, do I insure it or do I not insure it? Once I get to pass quality of care and my thoughts around inheritances and money beyond my lifetime, most people then look at this as one of two ways that they're going to go. And Kip, it sounds like you may be in this case yourself, which is I either insure it myself, I shoulder the burden myself, or I hand it to an insurance company. I think Paula, there's a third one, which is I take a portion of it and I give a portion of the responsibility to a long-term care insurance policy that I know doesn't cover the full thing, but it makes my burden lighter, right?

49:24And as you can see, there's various degrees of that middle ground. And I think that's where the truth is, if you talk to most certified financial planners, is going to be for most of us in that middle ground. But if you don't have a lot of money to protect, let's say you started late and you're not worried about inheritance. Well, after you spend your assets, Medicaid will will pick up long term care costs by and large. And that's a whole longer discussion, but you can leave it to Medicaid. And again, this also gets to quality of care because Medicaid facilities may not be what you want quality of care wise, which is why we start there.

50:01But if you're not worried about quality of care, you're not worried about inheritance and you started late, well, then focus on financial security for you and, quote, roll the dice on long-term care. Kip, it sounds like, has something he wants to protect. And so for Kip, he's in this middle ground of, I don't have enough for both of us in long-term care, but I also have enough that I want to protect. But still for you, Kip, I think there may be a middle ground of maybe I self-insure partly and then I give a little bit to insurance, but not as much as it would cost if you're looking into covering all of it and these huge out-of-pocket situations of 10, 12 years.

50:39If we look at maybe 36 months and a portion of that versus partial covering out-of-pocket, I think you might be able to leave work earlier than you think. And then, Paula, there's the other part of that discussion, which is, can you take on meaningful employment that pays a lot less, which is, I think, the whole other side of this equation. That's one of the biggest pieces that stood out when I heard his question. Kip, what I heard you say is that you dislike your job. You'd like to retire. I'm 100 % a supporter of you leaving the job that you dislike. It is terrible to have to go to a job that doesn't light you up.

51:12But that doesn't necessarily lead to needing to retire in the sense of never working for money again, in a sense of the cessation of income. It might mean it's time to find not just a different job, maybe even a different industry, a whole new different field. And I don't know what that would be for you, but I do believe that everybody has a calling and that often if you dislike your job, it may be because you're not following your calling. This is interesting, Paula, because I just spent time talking about how the long-term care argument isn't binary by the insurance or self-fund. And you're also saying employment is not binary.

51:46It isn't, I leave the job I hate equals retirement. It doesn't have to be that binary either. So on both ends of this argument, Kip, there's a continuum. them. I want to talk through, Joe, you've talked about buying, offsetting a portion of the burden through long-term care insurance, but there are ways to make that long-term care insurance a little cheaper. As you talked about, Joe, reducing the benefit period. So getting a policy that's three to five years rather than lifetime coverage, that's going to make a huge difference. We talked about this with Reese, extending the elimination period, right?

52:17Choosing the longest possible elimination period and then having enough money to cover that elimination period yourself. That That really significantly reduces the premiums because you're self-funding that initial period. And by extending the elimination period in that coverage, you choosing 180 days before benefits kick in rather than 30 days before benefits kick in. That's going to make a huge difference when it comes to the cost of that policy. I think there's a third piece there, Paula, which is that also if you don't try to cover the entire daily cost, you could even slice it that way. Cover a portion of the daily cost and not all the daily cost.

52:52And you can shoulder part of the burden that way as well. Right, exactly. Lowering that daily benefit amount. So yeah, if you view the insurance as sort of a way to split the costs, you can simultaneously lower the premium as well as take on a portion of the burden. But I think beginning this with the approach that it's highly unlikely that both spouses are going to need lifetime care, statistically speaking. It's possible that you might be very, very unlucky, but probabilistically, it's very, very unusual for both spouses to need lifetime coverage. And it's much more likely that one or both of you, but at different times, will need two or three years worth of coverage.

53:29And if we start with planning for that, or maybe planning for a little bit beyond that, like let's say you're planning for five years of coverage for both of you, that by itself really reduces the burden as compared to if you're looking at the possibility of lifetime. There are policies that cover first to go back to another way to slice this where it won't cover both of you, but it will cover the first person to use it. And so you can have a joint coverage option on some policies that are out there. And that also, Paula, because if we look at the likelihood again of both in you needing the coverage, we go, okay, I'm going to cover the first person, but not both of us.

54:06That can also reduce the amount that you need to pay for in premiums. But Kip, I want to applaud you for thinking through this. This is a critically important piece of financial planning, especially as you're planning for your senior years. And it's a piece that a lot of people overlook. So I want to applaud you for everything, for living frugally, for providing for your family, even though that has meant working a job that you don't like, for making that sacrifice for the sake of the greater good. I want to applaud you for doing that. And I also really hope sooner than later you leave that job and do something that lights you up.

54:40There is a job out there that's going to make you smile. And I want you to find that job. Job's not even the right word for it. That career, that field, that calling, that space. Job's not the right word because when you find it, it's not going to feel like a job. It's going to feel like this fun thing that you do that you also get a paycheck for. In the day-to-day of it, sure, it's going to have some elements that are a little bit annoying, but those elements are going to be tolerable because you like the broader scope of what you do. So it's kind of like when you go on vacation, nobody likes going to the airport, waiting at the gate, boarding the plane.

55:14No one enjoys that, but people still go on vacations because even though you've got a little bit of those annoying bits here and there, you enjoy the overall experience. That's what the right job feels like. Sure, there are the annoying bits, but you're happy to tolerate those annoying bits because the overall experience is so worth it. That's funny. I like boarding the plane. I do. I like being on the plane. It's so fun. Something for everyone, apparently. So thank you, Kip, for the question. Best of luck. And call us back. Give us an update. I'd love to know what you end up deciding. Well, Joe, we've done it again.

55:48And two out of three questions about insurances. But the questions weren't even about insurance per se. It was about how do I eliminate these risks that loom in my potential future? Which is 100 % what the insurance discussion should be. It shouldn't be buying the insurance. It should be, is it a risk for me to eliminate this coverage? Should I have this coverage? How do I cover the fact that I'm disabled or that I need a long-term care? I have a catastrophic illness in retirement. Right. But then with Jalen, the MMA cage match, prioritizing all these different goals. Great stuff. Putting the fun in fungible.

56:27As you do. Or listing out a goal, amount, timeline, and then doing one of three things, extending the timeline, lowering the amount, or eliminating the line item. You have far more options than people think, I think, at first blush. Yeah, exactly. Well, Joe, where can people find you if they'd like to hear more? We just did a great week, Paula, on goal setting because of the fact that we're past the halfway point of this year. And if you're like a lot of people, you wake up and you go, it's July. Where did the first half of my year go? And so we have a wonderful man, Gary McDermott, who was a naval officer, who breaks down this idea we've heard a ton.

57:06What's funny, the Navy uses this very simplified approach to goal setting to cut away all the fat, right? multinational companies, billion dollar companies will use these very simple approaches to goal setting. We hear the same approach as individuals. We go, yeah, I don't think so. It's fine in my head. So he truly breaks down goal setting. That is on Wednesday. And before that, on Monday, we walk back through the amazing guest lineup that we had the first half of the year, because we know, Paula, it's fun to listen to podcasts. It's great to hear all these incredible people mentor us on what we could be doing to get further ahead.

57:46But we ask the question as we walk back through some of the big themes from the first half of 2025, OG and I, have you done anything about it? So that's on the Stacky Benjamin Show. And on Friday, the amazing Paula Pant also talking with our friends, Doc G and OG, the Gs, Paula and the Gs, talking through again, a goal setting from a round table discussion. How do you set great goals? How do you make sure that you follow through on stuff. So that's goal setting week last week at Stacking Benjamins. Amazing. Well, thank you, Joe, for spending this time with us. And thanks to all of you for being part of the Afforder community.

58:21If you want to talk to other people in this community, and I highly encourage you to do so, go to affordanything.com slash community. You can talk to people about... Fungibility. About long-term risks, about retirement, about debt, about college savings, about rental properties, about the stock market. You can talk to people about anything that's on your mind. That's affordanything.com slash community. Totally free. Remember to sign up for our newsletter, affordanything.com slash newsletter, where I share thoughts, ideas, stories that I don't share anywhere else. You'll find unique things there, affordanything.com slash newsletter.

58:59If you enjoyed today's episode, please share this with the people in your life. Share it with the people who sell you long-term care insurance and long-term disability insurance. Your HR director. Oh, yeah. Share it with your HR director. Particularly when you go and resign from the job that you have only tolerated for the paycheck. Share it with the colleagues that you're about to say goodbye to. And share it with the people at your new job. The one that lights you up. Share it with your real estate agent when you go to buy a property because it makes sense on a spreadsheet, but not because you want to live there in 20 years.

59:31Share it with that real estate agent and the property manager and the contractors. Share it with the pest control guy and people who come and clean the gutters. the HVAC people, the electrician, the plumber, share this with all the people in your life, because that's how you spread the message of great financial health. Thank you again for tuning in. I'm Paula Pant. I'm Joe Salcihai. And we'll meet you in the next episode.