Wall Street Secrets, with Your Rich BFF Vivian Tu

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30:47You say learning or earning, and some of those, well, much of those learnings can also be transferred into a side hustle that a person should start. Yes. But you've got a couple of rules around how people should think about side hustles. Yes. Side hustles are so interesting because I feel like after COVID, everybody has a side hustle. Nobody's just working one job anymore. But I would say when you are thinking of what side hustles you want to do, it's really important to prioritize yourself. And that means one, your schedule, two, your skills. And three, is this something you want to do long-term?

31:22not to mention if you are choosing to go upon a side hustle journey, are the barriers to entry high? Because if you sink a bunch of money into a side hustle in the hopes of making money, but then you find out it doesn't align with your schedule, you don't like doing it and you don't plan on doing it for a long time, you've just wasted even more money. So I would say with side hustles, make sure it's something that you can just dip your toe in, try it out. Do you like it? Maybe dip the foot in. If you like it, dip the whole leg in. And then until you're ready to really jump into the pool, don't funnel a ton of money into making more money.

32:00It's an opportunity for you to test something first. So when you say, are the barriers to entry high, are you advocating that people choose something with low barriers to entry? Yeah. So low barriers to entry, wag. Okay. I come to your house. I pick up your dog. You provide me with the leash and a single biscuit treat because Rover needs to have a little motivation to get around the block a couple of times and we walk around and that's it. I return your dog. I return your keys. I returned the leash and I go home, but that costs me nothing. But what if I drove for Uber? Okay. Now I need to have a car.

32:36If I already have a car, I'm going to be putting mileage on that and gas into the tank. But if I don't have a car, now I have to get a lease. Now I have to put gas in the tank and not to mention like, Oh, if in a place like New York city. Like, are you getting the car parked in a garage at night? Are you parking it on the street and then occasionally getting a ticket from the street cleaners? There's so many costs associated with that. Whereas there are certain side hustles that have no startup costs and make it a lot easier for you to get in. The low barriers to entry side hustles, though, typically also would pay less, wouldn't they?

33:10That's not always the case. Sure. There are some side hustles where if If you do have additional equipment or something like that, like you can make a lot more. For example, if you're a photographer as a side hustle, like, yeah, you have to pay for the camera, the editing equipment, the lighting, a studio, but yes, you can charge thousands of dollars for a portraiture session. But on the other hand, like the commitment to do a gig economy job where you're driving around or biking around, like the barriers to entry to that are quite high and you're not making amazing money on the same end, like with a wag, like you're only making slightly less than you would for one of those delivery jobs, but the barriers to entry are almost zero.

33:57What I'm hearing through this discussion, what I'm hearing are examples, you know, dog walking, driving for Uber. Those are examples of gigs, but they're typically not something that a person would ever want to, most people would want to grow into a full-time business that they do for the next 40 years. Whereas something like photography, that might actually be an aspiring full-time business. So where do you differentiate between the side hustle that is a cash grab versus the side hustle that is your foray into test driving, the thing that you hope will be your second career? It depends on why you are getting that side hustle.

34:36Exactly like you mentioned, say you have a wedding coming up or you're trying to put a down payment down on a car or a house and you are side hustling for a temporary period of time. And yes, that temporary period of time is going to be there. It's going to be a little discomfort in that moment. Um, that is to that point to increase cashflow coming into you. On the other hand, you are allowed to also have passion projects, which are similar to side hustles, but you actually really enjoy doing and want to pursue further on. I just like to differentiate between the two because passion projects don't necessarily have to make you money.

35:13Just because you love to crochet doesn't mean you have to open an Etsy store. And just because you love to take photos does not mean you have to start a photography studio. But those things can eventually evolve into a larger business opportunity if that's something that you want to do. Oh yeah. Didn't you know somebody who's a sneaker head? Me, but also the guy. Not me trying to take credit for this person. But yeah, I was like flipping sneakers in my early twenties to like pay for stuff because I had no money. Like people don't understand. I was making a good living. I was making, I want to say$80 ,000 a year.

35:49I'd gotten a$10 ,000 relocation bonus and a$10 ,000, um, stub bonus my very first year, which in everybody's heads, they're like a hundred thousand dollars. Like this girl had a lot of money. Absolutely not. Um, not after taxes in the city and state of New York. I was living paycheck to paycheck. I had a very expensive apartment near my office because I had to be in at 545 and I'd come home quite late. So having a side hustle at that time where I was buying and selling sneakers, that money was my discretionary money. I paid for a vacation with sneaker money. I got out of a bad apartment situation because of sneaker money.

36:32And I wouldn't have been able to break that lease without that money. So I'm always going to have a little soft spot for flipping sneakers or sneaker heads. And it's nice to see someone with a fresh pair of kicks or they see me with a pair of Jordans on and they're like, whoa, where did you get those? It's like our own little club. It's something special. That's also something I enjoy. Do I want to be a full-time sneaker arbitrage reseller as a living? No, but I did it for about a year and I use that money to get me to a more comfortable financial position. This now makes a lot of sense. So behind the scenes here, when we met, the very first thing that she commented on was my shoes.

37:14Yes. I'm a big, like shoes. Like I love looking at shoes. I love looking at, you know, people's fun accessories. I will say when I walk past a store window, the tops, the bottoms, whatever, I'm looking down. I want to see what's on the feet. like, are they cool? Are they flashy? Are they, you know, a special material? Do they look comfortable? I, I had way too many pairs of shoes when, when my fiance and I moved in together, he really embarrassed me. He was like, okay, Vivian, the apartment we're moving in together has limited closet space. Like we need to pull out your shoes. And we went into the closet and we pulled them all out.

37:51And he said, have you worn these in the past year? And I'd be like, no. And he's like, have you worn these in the past year? And I'd be like, no. And I hadn't worn, like 70 % of the closet of shoes I had in the past year. And in New York, maintaining that space for that is a lot. It's tough. Every square inch counts. Yeah. I'm wearing Rothy's. Those of you who are watching on YouTube can see. And it perfectly matched the color of her shirt. Yeah, exactly. So my shirt and my shoes are precisely color coordinated. So yeah. And that was the first thing that you said as soon as you saw me. The passion, right?

38:29It's evident that you're passion for sneakers or your passion for shoes is eternal, whether or not it's something that you're monetizing. Exactly. So let's talk about, we've talked a bit about emergency funds, about side hustles, debt. Debt is not a four-letter word. Why? So technically, yes, it is. I don't want people to think I can't count, but it's not that kind of four-letter word. I just think debt gets such a bad rap. And And, you know, there have been some folks who are very, very popular in the finance space who have made hating on debt their entire personality. And it's a little frustrating, right?

39:10Because the vast majority of people in America have debt. Right. Like student loans, mortgages, like credit card debt. Debt is, you know, omnipresent. but it's, there's so much shame around it as if it's an embarrassing thing that you should be hiding when most of us have debt. Like, why is that embarrassing when the vast majority of us have it? Also, you know, talking about debt in a way that is so negative, it's like, it's, it's a character assassination. Essentially you have debt because you're irresponsible. You don't know how to spend money, right? You don't know how to budget. You don't know how to, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

39:48That's not true. People take on debt for multiple different reasons. And when we see a single mom go to the grocery store and put food that she cannot afford on a credit card to feed her kids that night, we point our fingers and we wag and we say, how irresponsible of you. So financially stupid. When we see rich people take out multi tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars in debt. We call them visionaries. We don't even say the word debt. We call it leverage. And we put them on the cover of magazines because the way we treat people borrowing money, which is just what debt is, borrowing money, depending on if they have it or not, is entirely different.

40:31And I think that's not fair. That's a double standard. And I think we should talk about it in one way and that way being a tool. It is a tool that is good, that can be used for good and a tool that can be used for bad. And it is good to borrow money if you can get it for cheaper than what you can do with it. It is bad to overspend and purchase things that you can't necessarily afford and that you don't necessarily need with money you don't necessarily have, but it isn't black or white. So is the distinction between debt on consumer spending versus debt on income producing assets? Yeah, I think there is that differential.

41:13But I also don't look down upon someone who's using debt to make ends meet when they have no other options. I think they are doing the best with what they have, with the knowledge that they have, and frankly, the resources that they have. I just think that we need to be a little bit more willing to look at the context of a situation before saying this is good or bad. Is any debt good or bad or is it all simply a tool that people use for one reason or other? Well, I think it is a tool for one reason or another, but some of those tools can be really, really lucrative and useful and good. But for example, my mortgage rate has a two handle on it.

42:00I promise you, I am going to slow roll me paying off that mortgage for as long as humanly possible. Because right now, mortgage rates are what? Something with like a high, like a seven handle, something handle. Yeah. And what did the S &P 500 earn last year? 25 %? Yeah, exactly. 23%. I am so much better off investing any additional funds I have than using those additional funds to pay down that debt. Because why would I try to avoid 2 % of interest when I can earn 23 % of interest and just pay the 2 % out of that and still be 21 % up? Right. You know, think about it like a bucket. the gains that you get, or, you know, the interest that you might receive from putting your money into a high yield savings account or investing in the market, that's a hose that is water coming into the bucket.

42:56And then your debt, the interest that you owe on that debt is like a hole at the bottom, a drip out. If the hose is pumping water into the bucket at a faster rate than the drip out is happening, you're still going to end up with more water over time. And the water is that money. Whereas if the drip out is happening faster than the hose is able to refill it, you are now in a worse off position and over time will end up with no water in the bucket. So we always want to prioritize the action, whether it's paying off debt or whether it's putting more into investing to get us more water in the bucket.

43:32Right. Yeah. I think the question comes up for a lot of people when the amount of water that comes out of the hose is volatile and uncertain. Yeah. Right. Because we don't know exactly how much water that hose is going to emit day after day, month after month over the next five, 10, 15 years. We don't. And listen, historical performance does not indicate future results. I get it. But there have been serious long tail studies done. And the S &P 500 over, you know, since the history of its inception has returned roughly eight to 10 percent annually accounting for inflation. inflation. And so that is a bet I'm willing to make because some years, sure, you'll be up two and maybe there'll be slightly less water in your bucket because your debt's interest compounded a little faster than that.

44:22But other years, you'll be up 23 % and your debt's interest will have only compounded a certain amount and you'll be way up. So over the long term, you'll still be better off.

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46:55At what point should a person take, let's say they want to transition from a stable nine to five job into a career as an entrepreneur, which means they're adding more risk to the income production element of their life. At what point should they counterbalance that with being a bit more conservative in their investments? I think that is such a personal decision. But for me, it was actually before I made the jump. So when I was working on your rich BFF in the beginning for the first year and three months, I had a full-time job and I use my full-time job to essentially fund my side hustle, my passion project.

47:32And I did that by significantly setting aside much more money for savings than I normally would have. I waited until I had an additional, not my emergency fund, not the house down payment, not the other savings, but a separate fund specifically called Vivian quits her job fund. And I put a hundred thousand dollars of cash in there and it was a high yield savings account and I just held it there. and I was earning a couple percent, but nothing crazy on it. But my thought was, now that I have this money, it can tide me over for a year if I don't make a single dollar doing this for the next year, which I knew was unlikely at that point.

48:18But if I don't make a single dollar, that$100 ,000 should cover me and my needs for 12 months at least. That was what gave me the confidence to jump forth. So if you are planning on taking the leap into entrepreneurship away from a more traditional W-2 stable income job, maybe it is ratcheting up that savings or potentially if you have investments that aren't in retirement accounts, but ones that you want to have access to, choosing more low reward, but also low risk assets is certainly a smart way to go about it. And then doing that before you take the leap, I think will just give you a lot of peace of mind.

48:59Maybe I'm just a worry wart, but I think a lot of us worry. And it gave me a plan and I knew that I essentially had built myself a parachute to jump out of the plane in case things didn't work out. And fortunately for me, they did and I never had to use it. Yeah. I guess prior to making that leap back when you were a W-2 employee, One of the first big splurges that you made was on a Prada bag. It was stunning. Paula, you had to have seen it. It's special. Do you still have it? Of course. Of course. I'm never getting rid of that bag. It won't be resold because it was my first bag. And nothing ever feels as good as your first bag.

49:45My mentor taught me that. I talk about it in the book. It wasn't what that bag was, but what it represented. What did it represent? It represented financial agency for me for the first time. I didn't have to go and ask for permission to buy that bag. I bought that bag because I blood, sweat, tears, sat at my desk for 14 to 15 hours a day, went to client events after work, schmoozed, did everything that I was supposed to do to make that money. And I set aside money for my bag. And when I bought it, I was like sweating at the register, but it just felt like I had made it. I didn't need to ask some boy for the bag.

50:29I didn't have to ask my parents. I could just go into the store, walk in, pay for it. And I knew I had the money to cover it. That's power. Right, right. You have a line that really stood out to me where you say, quote, a purchase has value when we have more positive feelings about having it than negative feelings about not having the money anymore. Which is such an interesting, like a great definition of value. And so how, for the people listening, when they're trying to determine if a particular purchase has value, because a lot of people conflate cost with value. In one way or the other, some people will think that something is a great deal because it's cheap, despite the fact that it's got no value to them.

51:15Yeah, exactly. And extremely low quality or they don't need it. You know, it's the, oh, I bought it because it's cheap. I bought it because it's on sale. And conversely, there are others who think that things are valuable only because they are, those items are considered luxurious. And expensive. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So for everyone listening, how does each person personally know if something has value, Something can be that Prada bag as what it was to you. You know, I think oftentimes these things that hold the most value and meaning to us are things that we've wanted for a very long time that we've thought about, that we've researched.

51:50This is not a purchase you make on a whim. This is something that you plan for, you budget for, you are very deliberate and purposeful and thoughtful in your buying. And when you think about buying it, it's not fear. It's not, oh, I might have buyer's remorse. It is, there is nothing in the world that I want to do more than buy this thing. And what I love to actually do is, you know, the, is it worth it equation? You may have heard it called value-based spending. I think a lot of people struggle with the value of a dollar, not because they don't work hard because I've heard you like, you don't know the value of a dollar.

52:25That's not what I'm saying here. I think people don't understand the value of a dollar because they don't know what it equates to in their lives. But what I like to do is take the cost of anything that I'm purchasing and divide it buy my hourly take-home pay. And that helps you to change the equation of this pair of pants is $80. If I make$20 an hour, this pair of pants is worth four hours of my work. Are you willing to sit at your desk for four hours for this pair of pants? And for me, this equation, anytime I'm buying something, I do it in my head. It has made me feel so much less guilt about going on vacations spending on fancy dinners and experiences, buying nice gifts for people that I love, but it's made me feel worse about spending full price on retail for spending money to go to or attend social obligations.

53:23I don't actually want to be at or, you know, things that I just don't need or like spending money on stuff that frankly I have at home. Like, you know, have XYZ at home, it really helped me rationalize not having the daily purchased tea or coffee or beverage because I was then able to rationalize, hey, if I don't spend that money every single day and I save up, I can get something cooler at the end of the year. Right. So this happened with me. When I reached a point where I started making a lot of money and I would then, okay, what is this worth in terms of my time? It kind of justified buying everything.

53:59Really? Yeah. I don't know. Maybe my wants just aren't big enough, but anything that I wanted, I would think about what that equated to in terms of how many hours of work it would take. And I was like, yeah, may as well. Yeah, may as well. I love that attitude. But I think that's the other thing we have to talk about, like lifestyle creep, because it's not just people who don't have money that can make money mistakes. People who have tons of money, make big money mistakes. In fact, the scales of those mistakes are just larger. You make mistakes with more zeros at the end. Exactly. And I certainly struggled this with myself and not so much now.

54:40I feel like now I'm almost past that point of like, I don't care. I'm not impressing anybody. If you want to know what I'm up to, you can Google it. And that's like talking my big bad talk. But when I left Wall Street and went into media and tech, I felt a little chip on my shoulder because for many people, it felt like I thought people believed I couldn't hack it. And because of that, when I started making more money, multiples of what I was making on Wall Street at my tech job, at my media job, I felt the need to throw it around a little bit. I got a couple of really nice codes. Blow it to show it.

55:22Blow it to show it. I got a couple designer. That's the stupidest thing. I got a designer stocking cap. What's a stocking cap? Just like a little like winter hat with a puff on the top. Oh, like a Santa Claus hat kind of thing? Yeah. It's like a beanie, but with a little puff on the top. And it was like puff on the top of rabbit fur. And it was like designer. It was so fancy. It's itchy. It issues my head. I don't like my hair being frizzy and covered and I never wear it. And I was like, what a huge mistake. and I ended up spending a lot of money that I had, but frankly didn't have because I should have been using it for other things.

55:56Spending money I didn't have on stuff I didn't need to impress people I didn't like because I wanted to show people how successful I was. And it just kind of left me with a lot of junk. Whereas now my biggest spendings are almost always on experiences and almost always to show people I love a good time. Hmm. And I never regret any of those decisions. Yeah. That's a beautiful place to, uh, to end it. Are there any final lessons that you want to impart on the afford anything community? Ooh, I would just say like, talk to your friends about money and talk about your value because you can only save as much as you earn, but you can always earn more money.

56:44And that was a golden piece of wisdom that my mentor gave me because we talk about all the saving. Like, do you have any idea how hard it is to cut$5 ,000 worth of discretionary expenses out of your life? You're not getting that latte anymore. Say goodbye to avocado toast, Hulu who, like it's not happening for you. You're not going to get drinks with friends. You're not getting your nails done, but getting a$5 ,000 raise that is not unheard of. That happens all the time, every day for so many people. And frankly, a lot of people get bigger raises than that. So instead of focusing so much about scrimping and saving and trying to really just piecemeal together and make the math make sense, go and demand a 10 to 15 % raise every year and force the math to work.

57:35Perfect. Well, thank you. Thank you, Vivian. It's nice to be everybody's rich BFF. Yeah. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate you being one of the, I would call personal finance OGs, you know, one of the people that I look up to and I hope I'm doing you proud, trying to usher in this next new wave of people in the business. Oh, thank you. Of course. Thank you. Thank you, Vivian. What are three key takeaways that we got from this conversation? Number one, When it comes to learning from high income or high net worth people, don't just listen to what they say.

58:15Watch what they do. We should do not as we're told, but as people who are successful actually do. Because we've been told a lot of myths. Talking about money is tacky and rude. Have you ever been to a country club? You ever see two old guys teeing off cigars in their mouths, beers in their hands, talking about their real estate investments, talking about their portfolios, talking about what they're planning on doing with their trusts and wills and estates so that their kids can avoid probate and all of these things. And they're talking about money in very gratuitous detail. So what makes it weird when two young women talk about money because neither of them have it?

58:58it's not tacky. It's not rude. Talking about money makes you good with it. It also makes it less awkward. It makes it less intimidating. So I would just say, do as others do who you look up to versus as you're told. So pay attention not to what people say, but what people do. That is the first key takeaway. Key takeaway number two, be a little entitled, not in a negative. Of course, the word entitled has a negative connotation to it, but let's reframe it. Let's embrace the notion of entitlement as overcoming your imposter syndrome and walking into a room with full knowledge of the value that you bring to the table.

59:44And sure, we can get into a semantic debate. Is that entitlement? Is it confidence? Whatever. Call it whatever you want, but it's the attitude that you need to have when you go into a negotiation. When we think about people who are entitled, certainly there are loads of rich people who are entitled and gross, and they're standing at the front of the McDonald's line yelling at some poor 18-year-old kid who is certainly not the reason why their French fries are cold. That is a form of entitlement, and it is bad. However, there are some moments when being entitled is a good thing and works in your favor and works to your benefit as a human being versus a corporation.

1:00:23A great example of that is say you get hit with a late fee on your credit card. The account changes over or something happens. The auto pay turns off for whatever reason you get hit with a late fee. I guarantee you every single rich person out there is calling the credit card company and saying, Hey, I've been a loyal customer for 10 years. Can you do me a one-time courtesy and waive this late fee? Either they're doing it. They're having their assistant do it, but they're not paying that. The reason is, is they know the value of their business. They know that, Hey, I've got cash sitting at this bank that you are using to loan out that you are making interest off of.

1:00:57And that has value to you. I have my mortgage with you. You are earning interest on that. That has value to you. We have a private banking relationship. And because of that, I use you as my brokerage that has value to you as the bank. They know that if they wanted to, they could leave. And because of that, they also recognize that for banks to acquire a customer like them is incredibly expensive. They need to spend thousands upon thousands of marketing dollars to do that. They will waive a$35 late fee so fast. You can't even blink before they let you go. The rest of us, regular everyday people need to also have in certain moments, that same sense of entitlement because we are worth it.

1:01:41We do deserve it. We should be able to push back on corporations that serve us because we're the clients and we have value. That is the second key takeaway. Finally, key takeaway number three. Side hustles are on everybody's mind these days, but how do we know if we are choosing a good one? In this final key takeaway, Vivian shares three things that a person should think about as they are picking a side hustle. When you are thinking of what side hustles you want to do, it's really important to prioritize yourself. And that means one, your schedule, two, your skills. And three, is this something you want to do long term?

1:02:26if you sink a bunch of money into a side hustle in the hopes of making money, but then you find out it doesn't align with your schedule, you don't like doing it and you don't plan on doing it for a long time, you've just wasted even more money. With side hustles, make sure it's something that you can just dip your toe in, try it out. Do you like it? Maybe dip the foot in. If you like it, dip the whole leg in. And then until you're ready to really jump into the pool, don't funnel a ton of money into making more money. It's an opportunity for you to test something first. Those are three key takeaways from this conversation with your rich BFF, Vivian Tu.

1:03:01Thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please do three things. Number one, subscribe to the show notes, affordanything.com slash show notes. Number two, share this with a friend or a family member. Number three, review this on your favorite podcast playing app. Review us on Spotify, review us on Apple Podcasts. And if you're watching this on YouTube, like, subscribe, share, leave a comment. Thank you so much for being part of this community. My name is Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything podcast. And we will catch you in the next episode.