Why High Achievers Never Feel Enough | Brooke Taylor

0:00Are you an ambitious person? If you're watching a show like Big Swings Only, most likely yes. Now, here's the thing. Where does that ambition come from? Because there's a difference. Because if it comes from the right place, it can be something really beautiful. But if that ambition comes from the wrong place, it could be the thing that is killing your happiness, your joy, and your feeling of enough. Brooke Taylor is the author of Healing the Success Wound. And this is the thing that is the dark fueling mechanism for so many high achievers. The very thing that pushes you the farthest is often the very thing that is hurting you the most.

0:38In this episode, we're going to break down exactly what that means and how you can renegotiate your relationship with success. We always hear how important it is to fight these inappropriate addictions, but there's one addiction that society actually promotes, and that is the addiction to achievement and success. So many people owe their success to that feeling, but they also owe that feeling of not being enough, that lack of well-being to that exact same source. And Brooke felt this herself. She was a proud Googler working exceptionally hard, pushing forward in her career, and she recognized this was unhealthy.

1:17There was something that needed to change. And now with her work, with her coaching, and with this book, she is helping people to make that exact same transition in their lives. This episode is not just going to change the way that you relate to your success, but it can help you to help other people to recognize this in themselves, your family, your friends, and the people you care about the most. This is the story of Brooke Taylor. Welcome to Big Swings Only.

1:50If you had to rename the book, what would you rename it?

1:54Brooke Taylor: Mmm.

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2:35Brooke Taylor: I think I'd rename it, you know, how is better than what. Because one of the theses of the book is how you work is more important than what you do for work when it comes to career fulfillment. And people often get that all wrong, right? We're obsessed with, you know, what do you do for work? Even asking young kids, what do you want to be when you grow up? But from my research, it's much more about our working habits, our relationship to work, and our, you know, kind of how we approach our work rather than what we do for work that translates to a satisfying career. So I think that's been the, that's really the paradigm shift that the book offers.

3:14Brilliant. That's really interesting. And it's funny because it's a part of work and our career and our life journey that we don't often think about because there's always a dominant narrative as to how certain things should be done. And a lot of times those stories are negative or self-defeating or whatever it happens to be, disempowering in some kind of way. But even just helping people to understand that the paradigm can be shifted in itself is very empowering.

3:48Brooke Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even in career development conversations in the workplace or even in entrepreneurs, how we plan our quarterly goals, our annual goals, it's all about where do I want to be next as opposed to how do I want to be next. And that's really the question we should be asking. Amazing. Yeah. It's funny because for me as a lawyer, we are often quite unwell when it comes to the how. That's so true. You know, being a lawyer really changed the way that I see, feel and perceive time. Because I remember starting off billing hours, we were billing in six minute increments. And so if you are billing and seeing time in that way, it makes you very time sensitive in a way that can be very efficient for client deliverables, but also very ineffective when it comes to mental health and well-being.

4:46You feel time slipping away very, very quickly. And it creates this scarcity mentality. And then when you're out of that apparatus, then you start being very sensitive to time as it passes by and not being very present. You're just scared of losing it. Whatever it is, is inefficient. And that can really get in the way of relationships and just being present and enjoying life too.

5:15Brooke Taylor: Does that create a fixation on urgency? Like it has to be done? Like I'm already behind? Or like efficiency? Yes. Yes. 100%. And that's a word I get to a lot. It's a blessing and a curse. And when I travel a lot for work and I asked my oldest son, who's 10, said, Kai, how are things when I'm gone? He's like, they're far less efficient. I was like, oh, that's good. But then when I but I also recognize, especially at night, when I start to fade, I start to be more lawyerly in my timing. I'm like, listen, we time bedtime is not a suggestion. It is an actual cut off. OK, not it's not eight ish. It is eight.

5:59OK, we're getting close to it. It's getting close. And I realized at some point I said, hey, I am focusing so much on efficiency. But, you know, when I think about being eulogized by my children, I don't want them to talk about my efficiency. I want them to talk about the love that they felt. So how can I have that internal negotiation with myself with my desire to be efficient, but also my desire to be present with the people that I love the most? But again, you can see how the way that we are trained and the way that we see our careers, it can really seep into our real lives in a way that can be counterproductive if we don't take the time to recognize that it's happening, first of all, and that we can actually change it too.

6:44Brooke Taylor: Mm-hmm. You know, I read this study once that said children who were rushed a lot in growing up tend to experience more anxiety later in life. So that experience of being like rushed out the door or rushed to practice or, you know, even, you know, come on, like we're late, like pick it up, pick it up. That can create your nervous system such that it only feels comfortable when it's like hurrying, rushing, pushing. I don't know what the answer to that is because I know some kids are literally, you know, you got to get to school on time to a certain extent. But I find that fascinating. My son's only one and a half, so I'm not there yet.

7:21Brooke Taylor: But I do find myself, I know I rush myself like that. Yeah, maybe because I was rushed like that growing up. So I am going to be aware of that. Yeah, I guess. Brooke, we are breaking the cycle today. That's what we're doing. We're breaking the cycle. One thing that I've started to do is with myself and with my kids is thinking about time and responsibility differently. So enjoying the process is a big part of it. And we talk about enjoying the journey has become kind of trite, but I'm so serious about this for my kids. When I ask them to do something that is often labeled as a chore, we don't call it a chore.

8:00It's just, this is what needs to be done. So I say, hey, boys, the living room, let's clean up the living room. And this is the thing. You both will get in trouble if you don't have fun while doing it. So as you do it, you need to tell me how you're going to make this fun. So it's always a game. So it's not hard for me to get my kids to do what they need to do because they don't see it as something negative. The fun is part of it. And so I've even started to incorporate it with myself where I say I need to make everything that felt like a chore or requirement, make it as delightful as possible.

8:33I'm trying to delight. I'm going to, what is it? Delight maxing. You know, everybody's putting maxing at the end. We're going to maximize delight. And so cool. I've got this pile of dishes. I'm going to just dance and listen to nice music as I go and do these dishes. Like I was walking past my closet this morning and it was a little bit messy. And I said, oh, I don't want to do it. I was like, oh, now this is a cognitive challenge. So what am I going to do? I said, I'm going to give this one song of attention. So I picked the song that I was vibing to. And I said, no, you're not just going to put the stuff away.

9:05You're going to dance while you're doing it. You're going to have fun. Dance, dance. And it was great, you know, and it just focusing, going back to what you said, focusing on the how, the process. I mean, it really can change everything about your experience.

9:21Brooke Taylor: Mm hmm. And we have so much more control over that. Like you're saying, like you chose to view the messy closet as, oh, you're like, ooh, right. There's that spark of curiosity. Ooh, like a cognitive challenge. You also viewed it a little bit like as an experiment, right? Like a tiny experiment. Like how, how much fun can I have while I'm doing this? And then also the other time, interesting time question that I was thinking about, I was like, ooh, I wonder if he could get it all done in a three minute song, probably. and how often are we stepping over the thing or avoiding the thing that causes us so much more than three minutes of discomfort.

9:57Brooke Taylor: And I think when that, you know, when it comes to work too, especially, you know, a lot of the people that I talk to are so, you know, dissatisfied at work. They feel like they don't have any power or agency. They feel stuck. And we always have choice in terms of how we choose to view even our emails or the Excel model we have to build. And I think that that's really the opportunity. Okay. Now, Brooke, I want you to regale us with a story, please. So tell us, when you think about the core thesis of your book, what is the story that conveys the message the best? Yeah, it's probably my own experience with my success wound and growing up in Silicon Valley before it was Silicon Valley.

10:46Brooke Taylor: I was born in Mountain View, California, right around the time that Google was born too. And I was raised in this cultural understanding that success comes from sacrifice, hustle, and hard work. You know, growing up really in the same soup that Meta and Google and intel were all born in, I really took that in to mean that success came from big exits. And if you can dream it, you can build it. And everything that you want to have is on the other side of your determination and your ability to make it happen. And I learned lessons like that growing up sometimes too, all with the best of intentions.

11:28Brooke Taylor: I remember this one And I worked really hard. And I remember I got the report card back finally. And he walked through the door at like 530. And I held up my report card in his face. And his eyes got really big. And he picked me up and he spun me around. And I think it was that moment, you know, where my wires got a little crossed in my childhood brain. I started to equate achievement with love and belonging. Those big bright eyes, the warm hug from dad. And that warm hug and that surprise is the feeling that I chased really from that moment on. And I took that, you know, gold star chasing mentality to a great college, McGill in Montreal, and a first job at Google, which was really the job to get back in 2013.

12:27Brooke Taylor: Right. And I joined a sales team where your numbers are all public and stack ranked against the 20 other 20 somethings that joined from across the country. And I was determined to be the best and do the best that I possibly could. And it felt like Monday through Thursday, every answer to every email was a referendum on my worth as a person. what I said in every meeting, my performance reviews, small moments like if my manager gave me a high five or a good job, or if they praised somebody else. Somebody else's win felt like my loss, especially in a sales organization. Everything was zero sum. And on the weekends, I would drink and party to really numb that feeling of inadequacy, but also to blow off steam.

13:21Brooke Taylor: I needed a pressure valve to release because there was so much internal pressure that I had felt for so many years, but that really amplified when I was working at Google. I ended up moving to New York with Google and my life looked like a very typical work hard, play hard cycle from the outside, but from the inside, it was causing a lot of destruction. And three things kind of happened in succession that brought me to my knees. The first is my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer at the age of 60. He was the healthiest person you ever would have met, hadn't had a drop of alcohol, worked out every single day.

13:58Brooke Taylor: So it was a shock. The second thing that happened is I was sexually harassed by my direct manager at Google, but I didn't report it because I was up for promotion and I didn't want to rock the boat. I didn't want to anger or embarrass him, the leadership, who were the people who could give me the thing that I needed and coveted more than anything else. And then the third thing is that it became very clear that I had a problem with alcohol and I had to get sober. So, you know, on top of that addiction to alcohol and partying, what was also clear to me was that I had this dependence upon external validation and achievement that felt almost just as strong as an addiction as my alcoholism.

14:43Brooke Taylor: And so that question of, you know, can I be addicted to alcohol, but also addicted to achievement, what is was really the crux of a lot of my recovery, not only in terms of my alcoholism, but also in terms of how I work. And I learned this one thing in the rooms of recovery through my sober process that really shifted how I view career satisfaction and performance in general. I remember when I was working at Google and trying to get sober at the same time, I would leave my office in Chelsea Market and walk down, you know, in New York, you can't throw a rock without hitting an AA meeting. And I would just like walk a couple blocks and go to my meeting.

15:22Brooke Taylor: And they would talk about the fact that the root of addiction isn't the substance, but the root of addiction is something called the spiritual malady, this God-shaped hole that addicts just treat with alcohol and substances. And that really rang true to me. I always remember feeling that empty feeling and trying so many different ways to plug that feeling, whether it was alcohol or food or attention or a good job or a promotion. Everything that I did was trying to fill that hole. And so I would leave that meeting, go back into the halls of Google, talk to my team, talk to my colleagues, talk to my director, talk to my VP.

16:00Brooke Taylor: And I was like, all these people are addicts too. They're just wearing it totally differently. And so that really set off the root of my work and my understanding around how does that spiritual malady show up in work for high achievers? And that is what I call your success wound, which is the pain that comes from mistaking success, productivity, and achievement for self-worth. It's that emptiness, that hollowness, that void, that disconnection from yourself, from a power greater than yourself, from your intuition that then causes you to seek outside of yourself to treat that pain. And I think that's really the emotional, psychological, and spiritual and cultural sickness that we're all facing today.

16:46Wow. Well, first of all, Brooke, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for your courage in sharing that in your book and with your work, because you're not just helping people, you're saving lives truly in a literal sense with the work that you're doing. And so many people can relate to what it is that you're saying. And one of the things that's tough about this particular addiction is that it is not just socially acceptable, but in many cases, socially encouraged. and it's, I'm wondering, when you think about your own life journey, have you ever walked out of a meeting feeling really good about it and then 10 minutes later someone's messaging you saying something like, wait, what did we actually decide in that meeting?

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20:26Brooke Taylor: That is such a great question because it really is the question that so many of my clients are asking themselves. Can I find a way to operate within a corporate structure or a cultural structure that is so reinforcing of this wound, right? That is so like, you know, I think I really think of the success wound as the low, it's almost like the sickness of the culture that is inoculated within us, that they reinforce each other in a way, right? And so whether you think about that as our larger, you know, kind of capitalist culture, or you think of it as a smaller culture, whether that's a Google culture or a startup culture or a legal culture.

21:10Brooke Taylor: And, you know, I think about the fact that we all have a power of choice in terms of how we get to define what's enough within that culture. And that takes a lot of mental fortitude, but it can also be very simple in terms of saying, okay, if I don't set my own standards for success and what's enough in my work, I know my success wound in the prevailing culture is going to do it for me. So as an example, one of the ways that my clients and I need to think about what's enough. So this is different than like a mission statement or a purpose statement. This is like, what is my criteria for what's enough?

21:50It has to come from, you know, three to six sources.

21:54Brooke Taylor: It has to come from our values, our zone of genius, our definition of faith in something greater than ourselves, our sense of like what puts us into a state of flow, and maybe even a little bit of meaning? Like what gives my life meaning? And so for me and for a lot of my clients, when we are in our success wound, it's never enough, right? Like that's the hallmark statement, right? When I'm in my success wound, it's never enough. I'm always behind. There's always more to be done. I'm only as good as my last piece of feedback. I'll rest on the other side of this busy season, etc. But when I'm living in alignment with my true self and what, you know, my heart and soul know to be enough, then I'm successful when I'm coming from presence and being rather than doing.

22:43Brooke Taylor: Or I'm successful when I'm rooted in service and connection. Or I'm successful when I'm pursuing my values and contribution. So whatever those kind of special words are for you that make you take a deep breath and be like, oh yeah, that's what I'm here to do. That's what your standard success should be. That's powerful. I especially appreciate the proactive nature of this too, because like you said, if you don't define it, somebody else will, you know, and it probably won't be in your best interest. And going back to what we were talking about too, there are certain environments that really push this mentality.

23:22If somebody is a recovering alcoholic, they probably shouldn't work in a bar. And if you're recovering from the addiction to achievement, there are probably certain environments that are just not good for you. And that's hard to accept, especially when you have tied your identity so strongly to what it is that you do versus who it is that you are. And it can be really scary to be faced with this situation where for the very first time you are saying, who am I? Who am I if not this? And so when you think about your identity, If you think about how you would have defined who you are and spoken about your identity in 2013 versus today, what would be the difference?

24:10Brooke Taylor: My identity in 2013 was I'm a Googler. I'm a work hard, play hard. I'm as good as you say I am. and those notions of identity speak to a stage of adult development called the socialized mind so i'm sure you're aware because you have kids kids go through stages of development right like are they walking you know are they crawling are they pulling themselves up can they kick a soccer ball those are all stages of development are they mimicking what you might not know and what i didn't know is that adults keep going through stages of development it actually doesn't end But instead of can you kick a ball, can you jump with two feet, it's, you know, our shifts in consciousness.

24:54Brooke Taylor: So 65 % of adults stay at stage three out of five stages of development. And that stage of development that 65 % of adults stay at is called the socialized mind, which speaks to that identity question, right? Like I'm a dad, I'm a Googler, I'm a lawyer, I'm a podcaster, I'm a husband. All things that we think, you know, sound, you know, quote, harmless. But in reality, if you listen to, they're all relational identities, right? And so the risk of pinning your identity to something outside of yourself is that if that thing goes away, if that thing's in flux, if there's no approval from that thing, right?

25:39Brooke Taylor: Like if you're feeling, you know, if you get in a fight or, you know, you're having a hard time with your kids or in the workplace, right? If, you know, you don't get promoted in the way that you wanted to, or you're no longer the get shit done person or the fixer or a people first manager, all our workplace identities fall into this too. If those identities are threatened, then our sense of self is threatened to. Now, the next stage of the development, which is really the aim of this book to help people to graduate to, is called the self-authored mind. And the self-authored mind sounds like, I am me.

26:14I am, you know, a bunch.

26:17Brooke Taylor: I am as good as I say I am. And I get to make decisions about my life. And that self-authorship has to be plugged into a power greater than your ego. It has to be defined by not just, you know, self-centered needs, but how, in what way, you know, can my identity really reinforce the best parts of my personality? And that's what I call in the workplace, that's what I call aligned ambition. Aligned ambition is the state of harmony, contentment and workplace satisfaction that comes from following the directions of your true self rather than your success wound. And when we release the identity of I'm a get you done person, I'm a fixer, I'm a people person, when we release those and say, actually, I am me and I am free to express and relate to people as I, you know, as my heart and soul moves, then all of a sudden, we can experience a lot more freedom and choice in terms of how we work.

27:19Incredible. This is so powerful. And again, you don't know what you don't know. And 65 % of people are stuck not knowing that there is something else, not knowing that they have the capacity and the permission to move into this new mode of aligned ambition where you are the self-authoring your own life. That's brilliant. And again, giving yourself permission. That's a big part of it too. Let's go back to, again, the power of environment. I remember growing up, folks would always say your GPA will be the average of your five closest friends. You copy and paste that for wealth and everything like that.

27:57But it also goes to mental health and well-being as well. And the thing is, think about with my thought leadership as it relates to negotiation conflict resolution, particularly me as a recovering people pleaser, how can you get to the point where you have the courage to stand up for yourself? One thing that's really challenging about it, even beyond the internal identity, even beyond the development of the skills and the willingness to have the courage, is the fact that your relationship dynamics need to change and people might not like that fact. It might be very beneficial to have a people pleaser next to you who does everything that you want them to do.

28:35And now they're setting boundaries and saying no and doing what they want to do. You often hear, oh, you've changed. You're different. Yes. And that's better for me. And apparently it's worse for you. This relationship wasn't as balanced as I thought. And now circling it back to what you said, think about your identity as a Googler. Think about folks who are listening. They have their achievement focused identity. there might be certain environments that want you to stay with this achievement-focused identity, and it is not in their best interest for you to be better. And I think that's something that's not talked about enough.

29:12You want to seek well-being, and at the same time, they're like, we want people who are unwell. We want you to just be well enough to get as much productivity out of you. And we actually need you to see yourself as this particular identity, because that's how we get the most out of you, even though it might be to your personal detriment and to the detriment of the relationships you care about the most.

29:36Brooke Taylor: That's so true. Yes. You know, I think it was Tony Robbins that said person, you know, identity is the most powerful force in human personality. And the words we put after I am determine everything from how we wake up in the morning to how we spend our money to how we work. And we have to be careful with what we put after I am because we're never going to take an action that's antithetical to that identity. So if you're in the workplace and you're all well-intentioned but a people-first leader, which I hear from women a lot especially, then it's going to be really hard for you to give critical feedback.

30:15Brooke Taylor: It's going to be really hard for you to have a difficult conversation because underneath that I'm a people first leader, I'm an empathetic leader, is a fear of being mean and a desire to be liked. And so when that identity becomes threatened, it's going to be really uncomfortable to take that action. So even our best of intended identities, we have to be careful with those and watch those. 100%. And I want to circle back to a word that is said so frequently. And there's so much depth behind it. And that word is enough. We see affirmations of people saying, I am enough. But I want us to take a moment and explore what that really means and the consequences of not fully understanding the power behind it.

31:03So when you hear the word enough, what does that mean to you?

31:08Brooke Taylor: Hmm. First of all, I can totally relate to hearing that notion. Even, you know, I would, I meditate, I've been on a spiritual path for a while and every now and again in a guided meditation, I'd be like, you are enough. I was like, what does that even mean? Like, what does that mean? And I use the word, you know, sometimes, but I think you're right to call that out because what does that mean? In a psychological sense, we have these three parts of our psyche. The Brooke sitting in front of you and the Kwame sitting over there, we're not singular selves. We have these three different parts of us that are either constantly at odds or constantly in harmony with each other that determine that feeling of enoughness.

31:57Brooke Taylor: Because it is a feeling, right? It's not an objective concept. It's subjective. So these three parts of our psyche, the first is the wounded self. This is the part of us that is always whispering, you know, am I behind? Am I, you know, am I, am I enough for that person? Are they connected? Do they, do they like me? Am I connected? It's the part of us that harbors all of the historical pain, embarrassment, shame, any feelings of being hurt, threatened, or interfered with that cause that constant questioning, am I enough? Do they like me? Am I safe? Then we have the second part of our psyche called the protector self, which is determined to keep the wounded self from ever experiencing that hurt, threatened, or interfered with feeling ever again.

32:50And so it wears armor that is intended to keep us safe, but actually keeps us stuck.

32:57Brooke Taylor: So in the workplace, our protector self looks like grinding. So working past the point of diminishing returns. Hiding, keeping everything, you know, small and contained, staying in our comfort zone so we don't risk failure. Seeking, shiny object syndrome, grass is greener, what's next? Pleasing, wanting to be liked more than anything else. and working hard and playing hard, living in that kind of pain, pleasure, dopamine, seesaw. And those are the things that we think are keeping us safe, certain, and in control, but are actually keeping us stuck. And then we have our, you're having a moment. I was wondering if you wanted to share about it.

33:38No, hit number three, and then we'll get back. Okay, hit number three.

33:41Brooke Taylor: But behind both of these parts, this wounded self and this protector self, is this true self, which this isn't psychology according to Brooke. This is psychology according to Gestalt's psychology, internal family system psychology. It's also rooted in deep philosophical thought, spiritual thought, theological thought, that we have this part of ourselves that is naturally and effortlessly clear, confident, courageous, calm, playful, present, holds a higher perspective on things, knows who we are, what we want, and how to get it. And it's there. We don't have to construct it. It's always there. It can sometimes get obscured but never damaged.

34:24Brooke Taylor: And so that is the part of us that actually already knows, doesn't even ask the question, am I enough? Because when we're rooted and anchored in that, we feel that sense of presence. We feel that playfulness. We hold a higher perspective on things. It's the part of us that maybe in the workplace experiences a sense of flow or tells us, you know, everything's going to work out. I don't know, Brooke, if you've ever thought about this, but you should write a book or something, you know, like there's an opportunity here. This is so good. Maybe when I'm pregnant, I should write the book again. Exactly.

35:02Oh, man, this is great. Because as you were saying this, I can feel so much of my past self, the protector self. I could identify what age I was with the wounded self, the different times the wounded self has come up. And then the protector self says, never again will this occur. Right. And then you just essentially are playing defense. And the best you can ever feel is momentary relief rather than true, meaningful satisfaction. And the true self, when you're in it like you're in it and i think about for me everybody has their time put kwame on a beach boom i don't need anything else not just bobbing in this in the ocean just building sandcastles you know i say sandcastles to sound socially socially appropriate i've only built a meaningful sandcastle twice since i have kids uh what i like to do is i put the sand on my legs and just kind of slowly bury myself and then go in the water and then just do that again i do that for hours Just hours.

35:59Nothing else matters. That's the true self. And when you're in that true flow state, that's it. Nothing else matters. Hey, what would you do to make it better? Better is not even a concept that is in my mind. This is it. And your answer was perfect when you talked about what it means to be enough. It's a feeling. And that's why it's so important for us to define it ourself. So think about how many people say, okay, you know, I'm just going to grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, and then I'll relax when this. I'm going to grind, grind, grind, then I'm going to relax when this. You ask that person, hey, how are you doing?

36:32Oh, I'm so busy, but once I get this done, boom. Hey, you know what? Every time I talk to you, you're saying the same thing. Essentially, they're saying every time peace is going to be over the horizon, but have you ever met a human being in the world who has ever caught the horizon? Have you ever realize that everywhere in the world where you look out over yonder, there's always a horizon there. It's a perceptual game that we play with ourselves. It's like finding the end of the rainbow. It doesn't really exist. And so what the person does is they just keep on pushing out satisfaction and well-being to an arbitrary mark just so they can do it again and again and again until they die.

37:14And when you stop and think about the pattern of life that is, you just realize you're missing life. Life is what is happening right now. And it's our job to find our true self in it. But a lot of people don't recognize that they can do that because they've never read your book. You know, it's right. Go ahead.

37:40Brooke Taylor: Yeah, it's, it's, it's so true. And people might be listening and saying, okay, well, yeah, that's a nice thought maybe for spring break, or that's a nice thought for retirement, but how is that going to help me pay my bills? How is that going to help me advance, get to the next level? How is that going to help me with a, you know, I have a, I have this board meeting coming up. And so what I would say to that is the fact that when we are in that state of trying to stay safe, certain, and in control, we are naturally our cycle, our physiology and our neuroscience, our brains are in a state where that's very myopic.

38:22Brooke Taylor: We're tight, we're clenched, and we can only see what's right in front of us. It's literally physiologically impossible when we're in our protector self and in our success wound to maintain a state of perspective, to see what else is possible, to come up with creative ideas, to be able to stay present in a conflict situation or a negotiation in a regulated state, right? So you're not just trying to leap to the end or just trying to, you know, manipulate or persuade or get something that you want from here. And so, you know, it really having that thought of like, okay, this is nice, but how is this going to help me?

39:02Brooke Taylor: It really ignores some basic facts about our physiology, about our human motivation, and the fact that we only can really do our best work when we are connected to this true self, which allows our neurology and our hardwiring of our brain to be in a responsive mode rather than a reactive mode and allows our anatomic nervous system to relax. So all of these three things are connected and play a huge role in our performance at work too. Agreed 100 % because when I've when I discovered my true self I've recognized that I perform at a higher level and it's that counterintuitive reality of letting go in order to achieve that flow and then also when I think about enough I need to think about what is it that the true self wants what does the true self want because we had um Morgan Housel on the podcast he had the psychology of money and he came out with a new book and he said the thing is the the concept of enough as it relates to money is the delta between what we have and what we want.

40:06And so the person who wants to just really, really, really wants an extra$1 ,000 every month, that would just change their life. That has the exact same feeling. I want to be respectful and say it's not the same substantive reality, but the same feeling as the billionaire who says, the guy next door has two billion. I only have one and he does not feel enough. And so it's not an objective reality. It is a perception. It's a feeling. So then I had to say, well, what does the true self want? And I want really good relationships, loving relationships with people who are close to me, my wife, my kids, and really, really good friendships.

40:47I love a good conversation with a person that I really care about. Okay. I want to be physically fit. Okay, I can do that. I want to have a job that has a positive impact on other people. I want to know that I'm actually moving the needle. Okay, and I want to be successful. Oh, that's interesting, Kwame. That one, that one's interesting. So tell me what success is. What is that? And when do you feel it? Because a few years ago, you defined it as what you had one year ago, and now you don't feel like you're enough because it seems like this is just a made up thing that you keep on chasing. And every time you hit that level, you just make up something else.

41:27And so that's like for me, when I started to come to that reality and just say, oh, I'm just making shit up when it comes to the feeling of enough. Then I said, what does the true self want? I want to sit on a beach and bury myself in sand. And essentially, when I realized that the real magic is the fact that we can renegotiate what enough is within ourselves. and the key to happiness is wanting what you have and then also we think about it from stoic philosophy wanting less is the key to feeling like you have more so then where are these ideas coming from society puts a lot of these mimetic desires into us if we think about it from rene girard's philosophy i covet what i see i see this guy has that car i want that now too i didn't want it before i saw it so is that the true self or is that the more the protective self Right.

42:19And so once you start to get really granular and have these deep conversations with yourself, then you can say, hey, well, that doesn't pay the bills. What bills are you trying to pay? Because sometimes we have to start paring back those desires so we can find that flow within ourselves because we're we're chasing things that are too external and not connected to our true self. Mm.

42:42Brooke Taylor: Yes. So well said. And I can totally relate to that self-talk of like, okay, what do I actually want? What really makes me happy? Connection, community, feeling loved and cared for by my husband, you know, having enough energy at the end of the day to be present with my son. That's what makes me have my head hit the pillow and feel good. But what's interesting is it can also be the opposite too, that when those things aren't there, when we don't feel physically fit, when we're feeling kind of uncomfortable in our body, we are more likely to consume more. I find that for myself too, right? Like if I'm feeling uncomfortable in my skin or my body or I've had a couple weeks of bad sleep, not working out, not eating well, my credit card bill noticeably goes through the roof.

43:32Oh, wow.

43:34Brooke Taylor: Because I am then more likely to buy a new shirt that I think will make me look better or to go get Botox when it's not something that I would normally do. I can watch my behavior in that way. And so that's the way that this can become a vicious cycle when we aren't getting our true needs met, that need for connection, safety, satisfaction. then we are more likely to have our success wound get activated and fall into our protector self and have our consumerism increase too incredible incredible and again kind of cycling back to what we said the uh the people who you're spending money on they they love it hey this dysfunctional brook come over here i got something for you to buy exactly not feeling good about yourself yeah Yes.

44:23Brooke Taylor: You can also probably notice that with your with with parenting, too. Like I just know now that I'm a new mom, like I'm just so much more aware of the parenting language that I'm being advertised to. You know, it's like buy this toy because then your kid's development will be better. Or, you know, I used to I used to really struggle. I used to only give my kids screen time on a plane, but with this, it was all surf. So it's all just rooted in shame and that we're specifically susceptible to it. If we have those moments of like, oh, I've had a few moments of like disconnection with my kids. I guess this toy will help solve that.

45:01I had to disconnect for some of those things. What's nice now with Instagram is you can start to pick your algorithm. And there are certain things that I used to follow that I said, this is just not good for me. like the hustle culture type of stuff. Okay. Can't do that. Um, I had to unfollow a lot of fitness stuff because it starts to get to a point where, Oh, we are now fit. Well, now what's next? Cause I still don't feel like I'm enough. Now I'm going to be, you know, ridiculous looking, uh, turn myself into a science experiment. Right. And then what I recognize is that we can see, for instance, in like bodybuilding community, there's the body dysmorphia, they call it bigorexia.

45:37so especially with guys they they look in the mirror you see these huge guys and then they look in the mirror and then they feel small they see a skinny person so they put on more and more and more but then they get a lot of social validation from what they're seeing online hey i posted my body and i i look huge and then people say oh that's great and then i see somebody else and they're bigger now i gotta get bigger and so i started seeing that i said you know what no we gotta stop looking at this stuff because a lot of the times the the most successful people in their fields most for those who are using who are watching or listening I want to let you know I'm using air quotes aggressively as I say successful people here they're people who have very deep wounds who are seeking validation externally and then we look at that and say that's what good is.

46:28And so we start to absorb that same wound. And so a lot of folks end up having life dysmorphia because they're constantly comparing themselves to other people. And it becomes a very, very vicious cycle. So we have to start to pay more attention to our behaviors, be more self-aware, because sometimes, like you said, with the shopping patterns, they'll start to show up in ways that you don't anticipate. But once you start to recognize a deviation, just slow down and say, where did this come from? And then you'll often be surprised at what you find.

47:03Brooke Taylor: Yeah, so well said. Yes. Now, let's say this. When you think about your one and a half year old and you think about making sure, boy, girl, age? Boy. Okay. One and a half named Crosby. Crosby. Oh, that's beautiful. Beautiful name. Okay. So Crosby. So when you think about Crosby and how he's going to grow up, he's eventually going to become a man, what type of messages will you be sharing with him as he develops to make sure that he doesn't have the same kind of wounds? This is such a great question because so many, this is on the minds of so many people who do some of this work and start to address their own success wounds and peel back the layers.

47:48Almost like the next question is how do I not pass this on?

47:52Brooke Taylor: Because to your point earlier, the success wound is intergenerational and it can get passed on between generations. And so I did a little research on this and I was, the, the, the answer that I have become super satisfied with is really heartening. So the part of the brain that is in charge of intellect and like schoolwork is not the same part of the brain that's responsible for resilience and relationships. And it's resilience, our response to setbacks and relationships, our ability to connect that are the most responsible for our long-term happiness and health. This is research out of Harvard.

48:31Brooke Taylor: You might've heard of that long-term Harvard experiment where they followed people through, I think it was like 70 years and they found that it was, right? The quality of their relationships and their ability to respond to setbacks and make meaning from their lives that created that long-term health and happiness. So what that says to me is, sure, do your schoolwork, do your best. And when you didn't make the varsity team, but you made the JV team, how am I as a parent going to be the meaning-making center for him to say, you didn't make the team, but look at all these friends you made on the JV team.

49:07Brooke Taylor: Look at the great coaching that you had as a result. Look at the way that you kept improving on these skills. That's amazing. Or from a relational standpoint, all of the great things that we do to say, hey, you can always have a friend over at our house. Or what did you love that your friend did for you today? Or you had a conflict? How are we going to take care of your side of the street and make that right? I prefer for my conversations with my kids to be about that resilience and meaning making and relational rather than like, did you try your best on the test? Or what could you have done better?

49:45Brooke Taylor: Or let's talk about how great college is as an experience. Again, all well-meaning, but all very achievement oriented. What do you think about that? No, I love that. I love it because you have to keep on giving them that perspective and also be very, very mindful when you hear other people sharing well-meaning, but pathological perspectives as well, right? And so once I hear that, it's, hey, Kai, let's take a step to the side real quick and let's have a quick conversation. I don't want to demean the person in front of them, but just say, hey, let's step to the side here. Yes, this sport or this grade is important.

50:24It is important. And it's not so much about the outcome. It's about the process. I know you can do better and you chose not to. That's my concern. So I don't really care about what grade you ultimately get, I want to make sure that you can recognize the difference between what you're capable of and what you put out, right? So that's really what it is. So, you know, just making sure that we are taking advantage of life's opportunities that they present ourselves serendipitously, because it's not about putting them through a specific curriculum, but it's just recognizing those moments that matter and pouring into them in that way.

50:58something that I started doing after we had um Sherzad Shamim uh he has the uh the the saboteurs the the internal saboteurs he's the one who popularized that and he talked about his journey and I looked at his TED talk before and he has this great exercise he started to do with his kids so oh my kids always turn me into a baby

51:26Brooke Taylor: but he would say

51:33why do I love you and he'd have them guess and it was a little game that they'd play do I love you because of this because of what you do because of what you said no why do I love you

51:52because you're you that's it you don't need to do anything be anything just be you that's one of the best gifts we can give our kids

52:09Brooke Taylor: it's so true because that statement is reinforcing their need for authenticity to be themselves and connection to you and attachment to you. I think that's a beautiful... Does he recommend doing that with our kids? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So I started immediately, immediately. Because I don't want them to think that their performance is what dictates the level of love that they have because that's going to be internalized, right? So then they're going to say, oh, I am bad for not achieving. No, the outcome is what it is. I'm still a person who's worthy. it's important yeah it's important so important and so important thanks for sharing that oh my pleasure simone rescue me man come in say something insightful ask a question do something okay powerful uh i have a question for you i i was born in venezuela in a small town called El Vigia.

53:13So when you grow up in El Vigia, your biggest dream is to learn how to read, learn how to write, build a second floor on your parents' house, have a big window so that you're not as affected by the power outages, and buy a big water tank so you have water, right? So those are my usual dreams in El Vigia. I got past those dreams by far, by far. And I was a kid. I dreamed about building the second floor or having water 24 hours per day. So I am lucky. It was good. Now I have water 24 hours a day. I live in Canada. And I felt so lucky, but not for, not it's not a forever feeling so at some point i was here in canada thinking like maybe i should change my internet speed yeah yeah this is too slow no i have to call tomorrow this i don't like it i don't like it so i start feeling uncomfortable again so it's like created creating to myself my success ruined so how can i stay in this gratefulness state for a long time and prevent from start complaining or having that empty feeling of emptiness again?

54:44Brooke Taylor: Yeah, such a great question. And I think this also underlines the notion that our culture, the culture that we're around, not just only the culture that you grew up with, which is you explained so beautifully, but also like what's our prevailing culture can really dictate what's enough in what we chase next. So the first thing is understanding that our ambition, which is our drive to do anything, whether it's to get more high speed internet or make a cake or have people over or get promoted or make a podcast, that energy requires a power source. It's like a lamp, but this lamp only has two sources of power.

55:25Brooke Taylor: It can come from our success wound. So from our our wound itself and our protector self, or it can come from our true self. And when our ambition is plugged into our true self, we can have that same thought. Maybe I should get high speed internet. That point of what if I had higher resolution internet could come from a place of all those great C words, creativity, collaboration, consciousness, courage, right? Like if I had higher speed internet, what could that do for our results in our video, you know, my video programming? Like, what could that do for, you know, the satisfaction that I get when I see, you know, like a clearer, crisper image?

56:14Brooke Taylor: That's when that question of what if I had higher speed internet is coming from our true self. When it comes from our protector self, there's always a hint of scarcity. It's not enough. And so then that can sound like, well, everybody else has higher speed internet. What are they thinking of the resolution of my videos? Can I afford that? Oh, it doesn't matter if I can't afford that. That's something I need. I want. There's urgency behind it. I have to get it. I'm going to call 50 different providers today and see if I can get the same result. We know we are in our protector cell for our success wound when there's urgency and scarcity behind what we do.

56:55Brooke Taylor: And even in the workplace, right? Like I'm behind. I got to get it done. I got to get to inbox zero before I shut my eyes. And all of a sudden it's 1am. And then I go into my bed and I'm not asleep till 4am because I'm, you know, I'm high off the, you know, the productivity wheel. And so that's an example of how we can have one sentence, one question, one goal, and it can come from two different places. So good. So good. This is great because it's not about wanting more or what we want. It's more about where does that desire come from and learning how to evaluate that, right? Yeah, you got it.

57:44Brooke Taylor: That's exactly right. We can always want more. We can always want to be better or do better. But where is that coming from? And we can toggle between those two parts of ourselves at any given time. But I think it's always just knowing around, you know, that's where presence comes in. Like, where is this coming from? Yeah. Where is this coming from in me? Brilliant. So when you think about the person who is reading your book and you think about where their life is and how they see themselves and how they feel before reading the book versus after, what is the change that you expect them to see? I expect them to know on an intellectual level and a cellular level that true fulfillment, the fulfillment that they want to experience in their career and the reason why it feels so elusive is because how we work and where our ambition is plugged into is more important than what we do for work.

58:51Brooke Taylor: And as long as our success wound is calling the shots, as long as we're coming from scarcity, fear, insecurity, I got to prove myself just one more, we will never be satisfied. And so that's clarity of like, I can only experience fulfillment when I am coming from and working from my true self is so liberating because all the rest of the noise falls away. The question of like, oh my God, is it my perfectionism? Is it my imposter syndrome? Is it my confidence? Like all the little tiny little career hacks aren't as important as where am I coming from in this moment? Because when you are coming from your true self, you can raise your hand and hold a higher perspective for the room.

59:39Brooke Taylor: Or you know you belong there, even if you feel a little uncomfortable. rule. Or you can step onto a stage and present your thoughts or do the pitch and know that regardless of the outcome, you're there to connect. And so when you're focused on that, that's going to lead to better outcomes anyway. And the deal will probably close. So I want people to understand that they only really have one career issue. Again, it's not their imposter syndrome. It's not their perfectionism. It's not their communication. it's their ability to come from true self rather than success wound. And therefore they only really need one solution, which is their aligned ambition.

1:00:16Brooke Taylor: And so it really clarifies people walk away from the book with greater clarity around how to do that. There are very specific frameworks and tools that I'm a very practical person, but I'm also very spiritual. And so I I hope people feel like on a heart centered level that this work is not just intellectual, but also heart driven at the same time. So powerful. This this has been incredible. Brooke, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for being you and sharing your story and helping so many people. And before you go, I want to make sure that folks have an opportunity to connect with you and reach out to you.

1:00:57How can they work with you? Yeah.

1:01:00Brooke Taylor: So you can follow me on Instagram, Brooke B. Taylor. You can buy Healing the Success Wound on Amazon or anywhere you get your books. And you can reach me, brooktaylorcoaching.com. That's where I talk a lot about my coaching programs, my group coaching programs, all designed for conscious corporate people to create careers that they love. Amazing. Brooke, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.