How to Turn Fear of the Unknown Into Your Biggest Growth Superpower with Scott Stirrett

0:00I just had Scott Stirrett on the podcast and this man is utterly brilliant. He is the founder of Venture for Canada and he's helped over 10 ,000 entrepreneurs find success in their relative businesses. He's the author of The Uncertainty Advantage and he talks about how you can use uncertainty as a learnable skill. Because I don't know if you've noticed, there's a lot of change happening and I've got news for you, that is not going to change. So that means we have to change from the inside out. And he walks us through how you can build that uncertainty muscle. But here's the thing. He's not just looking at this academically.

0:35He's lived this himself. He had a really promising career going into Goldman Sachs. And then he decided to leave it all to chase this dream, helping all of these entrepreneurs around Canada to live their dream as well. If you are a person who wants to take their life to the next level, if there is a big swing in your mind, but you're afraid of the uncertainty and you're not sure how to navigate the ambiguity, this episode is for you. This is the story of Scott Sturrett. Welcome to Big Swings Only. This episode is brought to you by Granola and Quint. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer.

1:13You can try it totally free for three months. Just head to granola.ai slash kwami. That's granola.ai slash kwami to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. The biggest opportunities in life come from the biggest risks. And what is risk-taking? It is making a decision in a highly uncertain environment.

1:54So if you're going to take really big swings in your life, you're going to have to become really comfortable with embracing the unknown. Yes, I agree. And it's one of those things about life where we might not want it to be true, but it certainly is true. What's really interesting psychologically is that, yes, we might be afraid of a specific thing. But a lot of times we are more specific, we're more afraid of that unspecified fear, where we're saying, Okay, I don't even know what's coming. I don't know if I have what it takes. I don't know if I can handle it. But one of the things that I think is really interesting about your approach to uncertainty that you highlight in the book, is that you actually approach it as a skill, right?

2:40The ability to thrive with uncertainty is a teachable skill that you can get better at over time. And what I talk about in the uncertainty advantage is that there are six core pillars of how to build your uncertainty muscles. That includes self-compassion, adaptability, anti-fragility, entrepreneurial mindset, generalist skills, and network building. And it's all of these things combined together that help you become more comfortable with embracing the unknown. And it's to say in my experience, I have found that there are far more people who are afraid of uncertainty than those who seek it out.

3:14I've spoken at audiences across Canada, US, UK, and I've had around a thousand people fill out a quiz about their relationship with uncertainty. And what I found is that there are around four to five people who dislike uncertainty for every person who likes uncertainty. And to go to your question of why is it that people fear the unknown, part of it is because for much of our history, we were hunter gatherers and unknown situations for matters of life and death. So if we're walking by a cave and we don't know if there's a bear inside of it and the bear is inside of it and the bear eats us, our story is done.

3:53Luckily today, we live in an era that's very different where we don't need to go to worst case possible scenarios in our head in order to survive. But out of that survival instinct, our brains tend to fear the unknown, which is why a lot of studies show that people tend to prefer to know a really bad outcome than to know an uncertain outcome. Because uncertainty is something that most of us are hardwired to dislike. That's to say, all of us need to be intentional about constantly building our uncertainty muscles, because our default as a species is often to dislike the unknown. And the good news is that whether you love uncertainty today or you're really afraid of uncertainty, you can apply those six pillars to build up your capacity to not just tolerate uncertainty, but to thrive with it.

4:44Yes. Oh, that's so good, Scott. And I'm wondering, tell us your story because somebody doesn't just wake up and say, you know what, I'm going to write the uncertainty advantage. There has to be something in your personal narrative that got you to this point. So can you tell us about your relationship with uncertainty? In my life, I have loved uncertainty at some points, and I have really been afraid of it. And I'll mention a few different snapshots of when I both embraced uncertainty and when I recoiled from it. When I was 22, I graduated from Georgetown University in Washington, D.C., and then I went to go work at Goldman Sachs in New York City.

5:24And in many ways, it was the dream job prestigious, high paid, especially in the context of that age range. And it wasn't the right fit for me. I studied international relations. I'm an entrepreneur at my core. And being a part of a 35 ,000 person institution was not a good fit for my skill set. So as soon as I started at Goldman Sachs, I began thinking of this idea of a not for profit in Canada called Venture for Canada. And around a year into my time at Goldman Sachs, I quit and I moved to Toronto, Canada, where I never lived before. And I had virtually zero social connections to start to build a not-for-profit from scratch.

6:04And that was an example of me embracing uncertainty. And it was really risky. But it was also the moment that created the most opportunity for myself and for others in my life. That over 12 years, we built Venture for Canada from a little idea to a national entrepreneurship institution where we've raised over$80 million of funding and supported over 10 ,000 young people across Canada. Likewise, on the flip side, in COVID, I really struggled with uncertainty. I was diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. I struggled really to tolerate a lot of things, like even in-person kind of social engagements.

6:42And I felt I became a shell of myself. And through a therapy, as well as working to build up my capacity to tolerate uncertainty, because that's what for context, the core OCD is a fear of the unknown is trying to control the unknown through compulsive behaviors and avoidance. And it was through that experience, that it motivated me to want to write a book and to help others learn to navigate uncertainty. because it's not just me and it's not just people who have OCD. I've seen in the context of my work at Venture for Canada, where we support thousands of people to launch their careers, that fear of uncertainty holds so many people back in terms of their ability to take risks and capitalize upon opportunities.

7:28And I believe that one of the most critical ways that we can unlock more human potential in this world is to help more people to learn to embrace uncertainty, to not view it as an enemy, but to actually view uncertainty as the place where opportunity comes from in our lives. And I've seen that firsthand, that whether it's launching Venture for Canada, writing this book, or a variety of other risks that I've taken, it's in those moments where I have sat with uncertainty, where I have befriended uncertainty, that I have been able to create the most value for myself and for others. Wow. Kudos, kudos.

8:05It's really impressive. And thank you for sharing that because I think a lot of people could look at your success from the outside looking in and not understand the difficulty that you had to go through in order to get to where you are. And I'd be interested to explore just internally, when you think about yourself, who you are, your identity, there's going to be part of it that is natural. So we have nature versus nurture. and is part of your identity that's going to be shaped by the big swings that you have taken. So let's do a little thought experiment here, Scott. So hypothetically, let's assume there's another dimension where there's another Scott, the exact same age, but he decided to do what society might say was the right thing.

8:50Just stay on that career path. Just go to Goldman Sachs, stay in that realm and continue to rise through the corporate ladder. What do you think would be the key differences between those two versions of yourself? The version of yourself today that's been built by your big swings and the version of yourself who decided to play safe and stay on the path that society might have suggested? It's a great question. It's sometimes something I've thought about in moments that have been more challenging of during my journey adventure for Canada, where I've thought, why did I turn down this opportunity?

9:24what would it have been like if I had stayed at Goldman Sachs? I remember having a series of dreams about this in the kind of early days of Venture for Canada, which I share in the context is clearly something in my psyche was really kind of grappling with it with that kind of question. So in terms of to answer your question of how I would be different if I had stayed at Goldman Sachs, and I was still there 13 years later, I think that I would probably still have an interesting kind of career, I would have learned different things, I would probably be, you know, quite well off financially. But I'd say that some of the skills that I would learn in the Goldman Sachs setting, which are different than the skills I learned over the last 13 years, our first off, I think just ability to navigate or learn to navigate and kind of play the corporate game.

10:17I think that when you're in a corporate setting, that is one of the main things that you have to learn to do in order to rise up. And I think that I would also be a lot less entrepreneurial because I think inherently when you're in a large financial institution, there are so many constraints. And it limits your ability to navigate things with as much kind of ambiguity versus if you're an entrepreneur in a really highly ambiguous environment. When I reflect on my experiences at Venture for Canada and other entrepreneurial experiences, I think some of the things I ended up learning were the ability to wear multiple hats.

10:54Because when you're an entrepreneur, and you probably relate to this is that you have to, you know, learn a lot of different things. I learned, I managed a team around 35 people. And it's like, I learned everything from IT for small business, I learned to wear the hat of marketing, I learned to be in like the finances of the organization, I learned a lot about a variety of different things. And in doing so, I think that that taught me that perfect is the enemy of the good, and just how to navigate highly ambiguous environments and learn a lot about a variety of different things. And I think what also I learned a lot about Venture for Canada is learning how to build.

11:38There's a great book by Andrew Yang who founded Venture for America and endorsed the uncertainty advantage and is an acquaintance of mine. And he writes in how to build things is that the way you learn to build things is by building things. And I think maybe the one major difference between Venture for Canada and Goldman Sachs is I think in the Goldman Sachs context, I would probably be more of a manager, a risk manager to some extent, versus I think when you're an entrepreneur or you're building something from scratch, you're learning how to build something. And that's something that can carry you forward in so many other different domains in your life.

12:19And I think that in a nutshell, that that's the main difference in terms of the skill set trajectories of the two different paths. That's such a great answer. And there's so much to explore. Because the, and it would be interesting to almost psychoanalyze this too, because it's a window into the way that you think. Because it sounds like based on the way that you describe this, a major part of your identity is built, not born, and focusing on the skills. So the skills that are required to do what it is that you're trying to do. So with the pathway of staying with Goldman Sachs and building that reputation and building that career, you would have been a risk manager.

13:00Here as an entrepreneur, you had to be more of a risk taker. And as a builder, you had to learn different skills in order to build the business of Venture for Canada. And what's so fascinating too is that we often don't think about the modifying effect that skills have on us. We literally have to change our brain in order to acquire skills and achieve mastery. When you think about it through the lens of neuroplasticity, neurons that fire together, wire together, we're creating those neural connections. And if you were to literally take a scan of your brain in these two dimensions, the Scott you are now versus the Scott on that other path, you would have had to wire your brain very differently in order to be effective.

13:45And it's really fascinating to look at identity through that lens, through a skills-based lens. I thought that was a really fascinating nuance. To paraphrase what you just said there, we are what we do. And our daily actions fundamentally shape and shift us in really significant ways. Likewise, Andrew Yang in his book talks about his experience being a corporate lawyer for I think it was like eight months and how that experience of being a lawyer in some ways trains you how not to be an entrepreneur because it's so different from that path. It trains you to be a risk manager, to be really risk averse.

14:25And in the same way that entrepreneurship can be taught through building, I think there's some paths that teach you how not to build, how to be really cautious. And even if you're a builder now, you can't just rest on your laurels. You need to constantly work at developing that skill set over time, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, developing anti-fragility, which is the ability to not just tolerate disorder, but to benefit from it. Yes. Oh, that's so good. And You're speaking to me. Now this feels like a therapy session because I am a lawyer. And what's funny is that a lot of folks don't know that because I made an intentional identity and brand shift because I recognize that we are risk averse by nature.

15:11My job as a lawyer is to point out the risks and make sure you don't get in trouble. And it is a mindset that is fundamentally antithetical to the entrepreneurial mindset too, which is so interesting. And I didn't know Andrew Yen was a lawyer either. So it's really funny to see how when people have that foundation of law, we can recognize, yes, problem solving skills are great. Being able to issue spot is fantastic and everything like that. But then we realize, wait a second, for us to become the builders that we need to be, we really need to make a fundamental identity shift. It's that's that was that really resonated with me.

15:52When you when you think about the the shift that you had to make, were there any things where you said just explicitly to yourself, hey, I used to be this way, but now I need to be another way where you're making a specific shift to say this skill or this identity, I need to close the door on that. Or were you always thinking about it in terms of building and evolving from this same foundation? Have you ever walked out of a meeting feeling really good about it and then 10 minutes later someone's messaging you saying something like, wait, what did we actually decide in that meeting? That gap between what happened and what anyone remembers is exactly what Granola AI closes.

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18:32They carry that same quality into bedding, bath, kitchen essentials, and furniture, all designed with the same care. I use Quince, and so should you. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. I'll zoom in actually to the present day because that is the example that pops into my current head I wrapped up my time adventure for Canada just the end of last year I led the organization for 12 years it was an amazing journey but I didn't want to be involved in the not-for-profit sector for my entire career and I've always wanted to be a business owner so I am about to start a full time search to acquire a business in in Canada.

19:29And to answer your question, I'm going to link it to some of the skills that I'm currently having to build or rebuild. And even though Venture for Canada, I was a builder, by the time I left, the team was around 35 employees. So I had this big support system, I could just a lot of my job was getting people to do stuff for me and dealing with HR issues and coaching people and managing and leading. And now I am doing the search. I am a full time team of one. And I'm having to leverage AI, maybe as my like assistant, but I don't have this like big team that I can lean on. So Kwame, one of the things that I am beginning to learn is that getting my hands dirty and getting in the weeds and figuring out, OK, how do I build a list of 350 target companies?

20:20How do I work with freelancers to pull information on the corporate ownership of obscure companies across Canada through corporate registries? These would be things that I would have just delegated kind of in the past. And I can feel the skill building up. I can feel that skill of being in the weeds and getting technical with the problem. And then perhaps Adventure for Canada, I got two out of the weeds. And I think that I can feel that it's uncomfortable for me to do some of these things that are a little bit more manual, a little bit more specific. But it's also so valuable because I feel my ability to problem-solve at that more tactical level is a lot stronger today than it was three or four months ago.

21:08Yeah. Well, let's actually explore this because it sounds like there is a tension between who you want to be and also who you have to be from time to time, right? Because there are certain times where I recognize as an entrepreneur, I say, okay, well, I guess I'm tech support today. So in the early stages, you might not be able to outsource all of it. So you have to learn these skills. I didn't want to do it, but I have to do it. And even though I've graduated to a point where most of it is outsourced, this morning, we had a situation where we had to make a crucial update to the website. So we started this at 10 a.m.

21:46And already this morning, I was a team manager, an IT support person, a course director, and then a podcaster. And I'll tell you, none of those things were things I expected to be 15 years ago. And so it's really interesting to recognize that sometimes on this journey, we have to become someone maybe but for a time in order to achieve the outcome we want to. And that requires a lot of mental dexterity and a different form of resilience where you say, all right, I might not enjoy this particular part of the process, but I recognize that it is an important part of the process for this journey. Absolutely.

22:30And to go back to the earlier point, as an entrepreneur or someone working in a smaller organization, that ability to wear multiple hats is so critical. And to have that dexterity to be able to move between different things. And I think even if you're not an entrepreneur, it's increasingly important for everybody to have that ability to adjust, to be adaptable, to be nimble. The second pillar of my book, The Uncertainty Advantage, is all about adaptability. And in a world where things move so quickly, it is really, really important that people be able to adjust their plans. But likewise, it's important to not be too adaptable.

23:09Because when you're too adaptable, you can be like a ship in the wind and get pulled in random directions. So one of the tips I've mentioned in my book is the importance of really being clear about what is your life mission statement, which can maybe sound cheesy. But when I have done sessions with all of these people across dozens of institutions, and I get people to raise their hand about whether they have a life mission statement that they can clearly articulate, there's probably five to 10 % of people who can do it. And it is such an important thing for me, my life mission statement is to help others achieve their full potential.

23:47It's quite broad. And it might sound counterintuitive to say a key part of adaptability is being really clear about what is your purpose. But I think it's so important because once you're clear about what is your true north, what are the values that direct you. It helps you be very adaptive, while at the same time not being too adaptive of advancing with a degree of purpose, and of aligning your activities, your time, your resources to the highest value added activities. Brilliant, brilliant. Yeah, because that it can be really confusing. Because we talk about the need to be agile, we talk about the need to adapt, but adapt to what, from what purpose?

24:33And it really can be a little bit disorienting when you say, okay, well, this isn't working. I have to adapt, but to where? But yeah, it's true. We do have to have that true north, but most of us don't. And it's funny, our missions are very similar. I think about mine as being the bridge between where somebody is and where they want to go. And so you could see, even though from the outside looking in, the transition from negotiate anything is very different from what Big Swings Only is meant to be. But when you say, okay, I recognize that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations.

25:08So I want to help people to make their lives better one difficult conversation at a time. And that was the purpose with Negotiate Anything. We wanted to create the largest free library of negotiation content on the planet. And we did that. So mission accomplished, we can move on. And now I see, okay, with big swings only, it's still that same goal to be the gap between where you are and where you want to be. But now we recognize in the past when negotiate anything, it was negotiating and having tough conversations. But here it's this big swing mentality, being willing to take these risks. And like you're saying, adaptation, agility is going to be part of that.

25:46I love this so much. And what's cool about you, Scott, is that you've already built something for yourself. You're looking to acquire another company and build that again. Now, you also, though, have helped. How many entrepreneurs at this point have you helped through your programs? 10 ,000. That's absurd. That's so cool. So you are better positioned than most people to answer this question. When you think about the entrepreneurs who have succeeded versus the ones who have failed, what are the patterns that you're seeing? I would say that the first defining difference between those who succeed and those who don't is taking kind of complete accountability for oneself.

26:34I think when you're in a bigger organization or environment, you can have more of a tendency to blame others or it's easier to be less accountable. I think really successful entrepreneurs the buck stops with them and they take complete accountability for everything that works or doesn't. And I think that that accountability links to drive that when you're an entrepreneur, no one's going to do your work for you. So a lot of entrepreneurs, I think, are incredibly self-driven and they wake up every day and it's not work for them in many cases. It's about constantly moving the ball forward and being accountable with every minute of their time to achieve their goals and objectives.

27:21So that's one defining aspect between those who are more successful and those who aren't. I would say a second key aspect in terms of entrepreneurial success, I think is just resilience and the ability to overcome challenges and setbacks. I think a lot of really successful entrepreneurs are actually good at balance. that the Elon Musk version of just like working yourself like 120 hours a week, that clearly works for Elon Musk in the context he is the world's richest man. But I think for most entrepreneurs, that is not the most sustainable path. Most people aren't built like Elon Musk. And I think a lot of successful entrepreneurs invest a lot of time in their family and their fitness and their mental health, because that is good for overall well being.

28:13But but it also helps you in the long run be more sustainable as an entrepreneur. Because entrepreneurship is a marathon, not a sprint, although sometimes it's a marathon punctuated by sprints. And I think it's really important to think in the long run when you're an entrepreneur. And I think a lot of successful entrepreneurs invest in fitness. They invest in eating well. They invest in family and relationships. relationships and it's a third aspect that I think is defining of a lot of successful entrepreneurs is the ability to focus and prioritize and make the most important thing the most important thing we can all spend a huge amount of time every day doing work you know we could all work for 20 hours a day and I think a lot of entrepreneurs they don't necessarily have these really complex systems for prioritization.

29:09I actually find that the people who often have really complex prioritization systems are those who struggle with prioritization. I think that a lot of really successful entrepreneurs have almost this innate ability to wake up in the morning and think, these are the two or three things that I need to accomplish today in order to move my objective for. They don't have these really long to-do lists. They can almost like into it. Like, what is the thing that I really need to focus on? And the ability to prioritize is so important as an entrepreneur because strategy is what you say no to. And I think that people who just say yes to everything end up failing as entrepreneurs.

29:53The most successful entrepreneurs make big bets on a few things. They don't make big bets on everything. This is so good and validating. Thank you. Because there were a few parts that were idiosyncrasies that I developed that I said, man, am I broken? Am I doing this wrong? But you're helping me to recognize that there is a lot of intentionality behind it. So let me just run through these and add to it without duplicating. So when you talk about complete accountability, it can be really scary because we love to own our successes, but we like to outsource our failures to something else. And the other thing that's interesting is that folks who are not on this entrepreneurial journey with you, who are beside you, who care about you, they can almost push back to this.

30:41So here's what I mean. So very loving, well-meaning people can try to help you to feel better by saying, oh, it's not your fault. And I tell them, I say, listen, I know you're trying to help and I appreciate the love, but I need to believe that this is my fault because if it's my fault, then I am responsible for a solution. I can solve this too. so yep this happened and and it's on me even if it wasn't out even if it was outside of my control i need to still feel like i am in control of that solution and then the drive resilience balance element um i believe one thing that's really interesting about this is that some folks struggle because they say i don't know if i can make it but the the greatest entrepreneurs i've seen they they already have the end in mind they say i will make it now the only question is how So no matter what bumps and bruises they get along the way, they just say, this is part of the journey.

31:36I might not have wanted this to be part of the journey, whatever difficulty it has to be. But it's almost as if they are starting their journey already reading the final chapter of the book. So they say, I know I'm going to get there. I'm 100 % certain that I will. I just don't know how. And then you develop this playful curiosity where you run into a problem. Oh, interesting. I'm really excited to see how I get through this. It's not, will I get through this? I know I will. Let's see how. And then focus and prioritization, because you see there are some of these very, very complex systems for keeping track of your to do list and things like that.

32:17And I recognize that a lot of those productivity matrices and things like that are more optimized for people who are working in a business versus people who are building the business. We just have two to three major priorities and I call it strategic disappointment. There are hundreds of things I could potentially do. And then there are other things that other people might want me to do. And it's my job to figure out, okay, let me focus on what my true north is. And let me say three things. As long as I get these three things that are completely within my control done, then today is going to win to be a win.

32:52I might have wanted to get some more, but I didn't. That's okay. People might have wanted me to do other things and they'll be disappointed as am I. And that's okay. That's just part of the game. And once you just understand that that is completely normal, then you don't create this emotional tax on yourself where even though you had a successful day, you handled the things that were within your control. But now you give this emotional penalty for yourself where you feel bad, which depletes your energy that you could use for the next day to keep on going. And so it circles back to one of the things that you said at the beginning that I thought was really interesting.

33:28Self-compassion as a key to success. And a lot of times you hear entrepreneurs where they say self-flagellation is the key to success. So can you help us to distinguish between this perspective that you have about self-compassion being really important versus the people who frequently beat themselves up for not accomplishing what they thought they could? It's important to find this balance between self-compassion on one end and pushing yourself out of your comfort zone on the other. And to me, self-compassion is not about just loafing around and stagnating. It's actually about being more ambitious.

34:10And I think it's important to define what exactly is self-compassion. To me, self-compassion is not just lying on the beach and drinking margaritas all day and being kind to myself. To me, self-compassion is a bunch of things. but to quote Dr. Kristen Neff, who popularized a lot of the concept of self-compassion, there's three core aspects. The first is the importance of recognizing your shared humanity, that if you're going through something that's really tough, there's likewise probably millions of other people in the world who are going through something similar at the exact same time. And sitting with that shared humanity is really important for reducing your anxiety and for being kinder to yourself.

34:56The second core aspect is the importance of being mindful of just like, how are you feeling in the moment? Are you anxious? Are you stressed? Are you happy? And if you're going into that self-critical mindset of just like labeling it and accepting it, and it's not trying to resist those feelings, it's about accepting those feelings ultimately. And the third core aspect of self-compassion is talking to yourself like you would talk to a good friend when they're going through a tough time. So if, for instance, let's say you're a listener and you're going through divorce, that's a really tough, challenging circumstance.

35:36don't beat yourself up and say woulda coulda I made all these mistakes why did I destroy this relationship think about if your best friend called you and said that he was getting divorced how would you talk to your best friend you wouldn't say that 100 % unless you're trying to end that relationship you would say I'm so sorry that sounds like it's really tough how are you doing and you would talk to that person in a kinder compassionate way and that's what self-compassion is. It's not about loafing. It's about being kinder to yourself. And it's about recognizing that failure is a part of life, that we learn from experiences.

36:14And that self-compassion helps us keep on getting up, keeping on making more big swings, and trying to do bigger and better things. And in my view, some of the most impactful people out there are those who are really self-compassionate because that's what enables them to make big swings and take risks in their lives. And the people who lack self-compassion are the ones who tend to be perfectionists and they just stay in their small little bubble where it's safe, but they're not doing the risks. They're not making the bets that will make them stand out in their lives and careers. I love it. I love this.

37:00This is great. Because in my first book, I talked a lot about self-compassion too. And I was really interested to see who you cited. And we cited the same person, which is really, really cool. And also, I wish there were more people talking about this. So I wish I'm so glad that you're bringing this, especially into the entrepreneurial space, because when it comes to the self-talk, the metacognition that we engage in, not just thinking, but thinking about thinking that deeper level. This is the key to introspection. And if we are too aggressive and mean with ourselves when we are talking to ourselves, then we are going to stop the process of introspection short.

37:39And we're not going to be willing to have these deep internal conversations to figure out who we are, who we need to be, what we want, etc. So it really is a great pathway to deeper self-reflection. And growing up, I used to play tennis. And one thing that's interesting about tennis is that tennis players, we all struggle with bad attitudes. You see people throwing their rackets, yelling. It's a very lonely sport. You don't have a team. You're not even allowed to talk to your coach. And so people start to melt down. But you take those same people and put them on a doubles court. So they're not playing singles by themselves.

38:16Now they're playing doubles with a partner. You never see that same person talk to their doubles partner that way. And so the way that I would describe it is you want to talk to yourself like a doubles partner. You want to be kind. You wouldn't try to break down your teammates, but we often try to break down ourselves and try to use this negative energy in order to propel us forward. And when we think about energy too, this is something in your work that I think is really interesting because we always hear in entrepreneurship, follow your passions, follow your passions. But you have an interesting take on that.

38:50Can you tell us about that? First, to double click a little bit on the tennis side, that is a great tip that I am going to apply because I am a recreational tennis player. And I recently was at the quarterfinals of the National bank open in uh toronto and i saw naomi osaka uh play and as well against alena uh long lot russian last name she's the number two in the world is it spitalina oh i'll start a link uh it starts with it was like yeah it might be that she was number two when we uh so i i couldn't pronounce her last name but she technically plays for kazakhistan but i think it's russian um and And one of the things that I saw was that at one point Osaka threw the tennis racket, not in the air, but on the ground, which is, I think, not super common in kind of high.

39:47I mean, I've seen it, but it's the first time that I've watched a tennis match where I saw it live or the tennis match, the tennis. And I just felt bad for her because I could tell she was being so hard on herself in that moment. And she ended up losing the game. She had a kind of a lead. All to say is that, yeah, to your point, sometimes just being in a team can really help you kind of be more self compassionate. And, you know, I think that it's something that it's important for us, like whether you're building a business, or even you're doing something like tennis, is just to be have that kind of like kindness, like self compassion is something that we all kind of develop over over time.

40:29And it's, It can be in hobbies. Like we don't just develop self-compassion in the context of our work. And can you repeat the question again? Also, he's talking about energy versus passions. Oh, yeah. So to go back to the, in terms of, I think, follow your passion is some of the worst career advice out there. and the reason being is that often we don't know our passions they shift and change over time and that's okay and i'd say a second kind of aspect is that a lot of our passions aren't necessarily monetizable like you could have a passion but you're not going to make any money out of it and the reality we live in a world where you you know unless you come from like generational wealth, you're going to need to find a passion that is that can earn you an income if you're going to do that as your kind of full time job.

41:35And I'd say the third is that a lot of the times people don't know what their passion is, and that that is okay. And Cal Newport in an amazing book called So Good They Can't Ignore You. He talks about that rather than focusing on following your passion, people should focus instead on how do you develop skills that actually make you you look useful in this world. And that's what I am even that book has impacted me a lot of my career trajectory that I as I leave venture for Canada, I didn't have like a set business idea or thing that I wanted. But I knew that I want to take an existing business, I want to grow it, I want to add value and and expand on the business owner's legacy.

42:18and I want to be useful in the world and learn valuable skills. And I think a lot of young people fixate so much on that, let's find, figure out our passion, that they end up making career decisions that are ill thought out, or that don't put them into the place where they really want to be. So if you're a listener and you don't know what your passion is, or you're feeling the pressure to quote unquote follow your passion. Label it, but recognize that in many cases, the better path is thinking about what are the career decisions I can make that put me in a situation where I can learn as much in as short a period of time and develop skills that are really valuable for myself and for the world.

43:06Brilliant. Oh, that's so good. I like that, especially focusing on skills, because this feeds back into what we were talking about with the agility and adaptability, because once you see a threat, you can use those skills to avoid the threat. Once you see an opportunity, you can use those skills to navigate toward that opportunity. But if you're busy chasing your passions, you might be jazzed up about what it is that you're doing, but you might not have the skills to actually make the moves you need to make in the moment. Oh, that's great. But before we wrap, let's make sure we bring simone in here he's always listening patiently and has something insightful to say or a great question to ask um you were talking call me about what people should be afraid of and they are not afraid and i think it was because of my life experience people should be afraid of getting used to comfort because then a black swan comes and you have to start over and that has happened to me many times in my life.

44:07I'll tell you, when I went to Argentina, I was born in Venezuela, then I went to Argentina, then I came to Canada. Venezuela was a society that wanted to make people feel certainty. Argentina is the opposite. So people from Argentina change quickly. People from Venezuela are more stable but more fragile at the same time. So when I went to Argentina, I had to start. I was nobody. In Venezuela, I was a designer. People came to say, hey, Simon, do you want to work with me? And then in Argentina, no one was going to look for me. So at some point I had to become, I had to start selling things, you know, selling everything.

45:04And I had to become the person I always hated, which was a sales rep. And I loved it, but I didn't know I was going to love it. It was just through going through that experience that I understood I was okay with selling things. So I think that one of the biggest skills that you have to develop to become anti-fragile is to be willing to change your morals because you think that all your morals are okay until you learn new things and you can understand that you were wrong in the past and but it's a oh it's so difficult to change your mind in that in that point because you cannot believe that you're wrong it's something really difficult to understand so i think that comfort makes you think that you're right because you you just feel that you are in your comfort zone and it turns out that a black swan can change everything you had to start over brilliant that's so interesting too because that the when you think about comfort, one thing about comfort is that you don't want to let it go.

46:18And so you say, okay, I'm comfortable right now. I don't want to be uncomfortable again. And then I think about the circumstances that I'm in right now that have led to the comfort. Now I don't want those circumstances to change. And then when you think about that through the lens of Stoic philosophy, you are then by definition, not thinking stoically because you are really putting your identity, your hopes into something that is outside of your control because circumstances will certainly change. And it makes it harder for you to change if you are unwilling to accept the fact that circumstances must change.

46:54I think about it for me as an entrepreneur, Simone, you'll know this story. I mean, we had a major client that we worked with. It was a major media deal and it was great for us. It was the easiest money we ever made. And I was just saying, this would be great if it lasts forever, a multi six figure deal that was just fun and easy to deliver. And we shifted our business with the assumption that it would never change. And then when we were at the peak of our powers, it all changed. And we had to adapt. And I recognize now looking back that if going into it now with this mentality, when I have these good times, when things start to get easier, just recognize that's not what entrepreneurship is.

47:41It will change. You need to be ready for the change. So enjoy the moment for sure, but also plan and be ready to be agile. But not just resilient, because I love the fact that you're bringing anti-fragility in here, just saying, okay, when something bad happens, how can I use this as an opportunity to get stronger, to make my systems more robust and make the company better than before, even though circumstances changed in a way that I wasn't expecting or hoping for. Sometimes we are afraid of losing the comfort because we are like just rolling the dice of life. So sometimes we have a double six and then we at Black Swan comes and we have to roll the dice again.

48:24But we don't know that that life has more than six faces. so we can roll the dice again and have a double 10 or double 1 million but we just know that we are okay with the double 6 you know yeah what Simone was saying on there are comfortable situations that can kind of lure people into this illusion of control or illusion of certainty and I think it actually makes people a lot more vulnerable to the vagaries of the world That resonated a lot, I think, particularly as a Canadian. Like Simone, you might relate to this in the context of some of the people you meet in Canada. But I grew up in Canada.

49:06I was born in Canada. I did live in the US for five years. But I find Canada is a pretty comfortable place to live. Things generally work. It's a pretty safe place, generally. And one of the reasons I was interested in writing my book, The Uncertainty Advantage, is because I think that the message is really important for Canadians, because we live in a more tumultuous world. And it's important for Canadians to push themselves out of their comfort zone, and to build anti-fragility and the ability to see all of this chaos and all these changes is actually an opportunity to build a stronger country.

49:46I gave a talk related to my book, I've given a couple talks related to this. Two for Global Affairs Canada, which is the equivalent of the Canadian State Department for Canadian diplomats on how do they build anti-fragility in their work and how do they represent Canada in a way that sees the opportunities in the uncertainty rather than the setbacks. I gave another talk at an event called the Banff Forum, which is one of Canada's kind of leading public policy conferences, kind of like a world Economic Forum, but for Canada. And one of the things that I sort of shifted the talk was was really thinking about the uncertainty advantage for Canada as a country.

50:30The book is, and our conversation today is framed in the context of people. But I also think the uncertainty advantage applies to businesses applies to countries, that when you're kind of lulled into this sense of comfort, that is when you are the most vulnerable for disruption. And I think the people who are often the most resilient in life. They are constantly when they're too comfortable, they're like, Hey, nope, I'm going to change it up. And I'm going to make myself uncomfortable. And that's, I could have stayed adventure for Canada for like 30 years, I realized I've been doing this for 12 years, I was getting too comfortable.

51:06And I need to change things up. And I need to push myself to my comfort zone. Otherwise, I'm at more risk of being disrupted. And I'd say the final thing I'd say to wrap up this question is, I remember someone who's a really successful entrepreneur in Canada said this line is that there are risks in not taking risks in life. And that resonates with me a lot when I'm afraid to do something. Because I think on the counterfactual and I think of, for instance, that decision to leave Goldman Sachs. There was a risk in me staying at Goldman Sachs because Goldman Sachs was not the right fit for me necessarily.

51:40I probably would not have been super motivated and a really hard worker at Goldman Sachs. Maybe potentially I would have been let go eventually. And I was in a type of the bank, an area that too was more vulnerable to kind of automation. and all to say is that to link back to that question on comfort i think the the ability to push yourself out of your comfort zone and to recognize that there are risks in not taking risks is so critical for individuals for countries for companies love it no this so right this you're so right and scott i i really appreciate you coming on the show today because your insights are more timely than ever.

52:21And I feel as though every year that goes by, your book will increase in value because we all need to embrace uncertainty. So thank you, my friend, for coming on the podcast. And before you go, just give one last final shout out for the book and how people can get in touch. To get in touch with me, I recommend that you fill out a short quiz and you can access the quiz by going to scottsturdsci2rse2ts.com slash quiz. The quiz will give you a score from zero to 48 on how good are you today at navigating uncertainty. And the first step of learning to develop a better relationship with the unknown is learning what is your current relationship with uncertainty.

53:07The quiz takes three minutes to fill out. And I really recommend that you do that as a next step from this interview as you look to improve and build up your uncertainty muscles. Amazing. Scott, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me on.