Learn to Read Anyone, with Sabine Charles

0:00What does a hypnotherapist and an auditor have in common? That's actually a trick question because in this case, they are the same person. Dr. Sabine Charles is the founder of the Tapa Institute and a former chief audit executive who has spent years helping people to make good decisions with numbers. But what's interesting is that nobody has a background quite like Sabine's. She's a proud Haitian immigrant fluent in four languages with experiences inside of Fortune 500 companies and her own enterprises. She's also the creator of a leadership program called Leadership MeQ, a framework that she built by combining her own research with her lived experience.

0:40This isn't an episode about numbers and data. It's an episode about how Sabine uses this unique blend of skills to read a person before she ever tries to persuade them, and why every framework on communication that you've ever heard lives and dies on that one skill. This is the story of how you can lean into your own superpowers and build a career by design. Welcome to Big Swings Only. Internal audit, it's not necessarily about creativity. is an ability to analyze information, come up with recommendations so that business leaders make decisions. So basically we're convincing people. We're convincing people to change their minds.

1:27That's what an auditor does. This episode is brought to you by Granola and Quint. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just head to granola.ai slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me.

2:04That's the best way to support the show. Because you have an individual who's already working and doing that nine to five or the number of hours he or she is doing it. And you're coming in as an expert of process risk controls. Now, you have to your job is to convince the person to change their minds, to do something different. And a lot of times auditors don't necessarily focus on the human element. They focus on the technical piece of the process. Process, people, and technology. This is what we always talk about. Process, people, and technology. And we tend to focus on the process and the technology.

2:51And the people, they'll just follow suit. And that's why it's interesting because many times in my career, I used to be a fraud investigator, not only an internal auditor, but also a fraud investigator. And we have to interview people. And they spend hours talking to the individual, trying to figure out what they've done. I just walk in and all of a sudden they spill everything and they come back. My colleagues used to say, what did you do? How did you have this person feel so comfortable to tell you everything? They call my office 42nd Street, not because of other certain things, but because people come in the office and they just spill the beans.

3:36And I started thinking to myself, what is that? Because often my bosses, my colleagues ask me, how do people feel so comfortable telling you things that they've done wrong? And that was the beginning of the journey of Leadership MeQ, mindset, emotional intelligence, and leadership qualities. There were many avenues that led to this framework. But if you talk about internal audit my career, that's where it kind of moved me into that space. We could talk about the hypnotherapy as well, which is a very interesting story. But those components is what led me to where I am today. Incredible. This is great.

4:23That was better than a story. So let's talk about how you got people to spill the beans, because we can't just like tease the audience with that. Because when it comes to fraud investigations, I know there are a lot of different things that run through people's minds. But if you could give us an idea of what type of fraud you were investigating and then what you did actually in the moment to get people to admit to things that perhaps they would have been in their best interest not to share with you. is that the emotional intelligence level, you have to first understand the person who's in front of you.

4:57And based on that, then you could communicate on their level. That's the technique. So the first couple of seconds I assess, like my friend up here, we were talking in French and Spanish a few minutes ago. He'll always remember me. So there's the connection that you make. and it's not manipulative it's actually genuine because i was generally interested in what he was saying and so going in not necessarily on the defense going back to the auditor or trying to be right all the time we go in and try and to understand what is the other person's point of view and where do they sit and then meet them where they are.

5:47And that's the E in M E Q. We also have a survey that we provide our clients so that they could measure their emotional intelligence level. And then based on that, we work on certain key things that you're interested in and we have three, we have, you have a session with three, you have three sessions with a coach and they work towards elevating your EQ because that is something you can learn. You learn it. I learned it very early in my career at five with my grandmother from, she's from Haiti and I learned it very, very early. And I talk about this in my TEDx talk where it was about when I was a kid at five, my grandmother, she watched us because my parents were working, living the American dream, working three jobs, you know, and she was the caregiver.

6:49She didn't speak English. She spoke Haitian Creole. And I had friends and I had a jump rope and I was like, I always walked around with this jump rope. And she noticed when we were outside, I wasn't really interested in hanging out with grandma. I wanted to hang out with the girls who were in the complex. I went there. She kind of said, okay, go play with them. I went and played with the young girls. Then seconds later, I came back crying because the girls stole my jump rope. They stole my jump rope. And my grandmother looked at me and, well, my brother was there translating. and she looked at me and she goes, you better go get your rope or else you're going to really find out what crying is about.

7:36And that just snapped something in me, which caused me to realize, oh, I better get my jump rope because I'm afraid of grandmama. So I went, grabbed my jump rope. The kids were like, whoa, they've never seen me so determined in my life. And I came back and I held the jump rope like a trophy to my grandma. And she just kind of just moved her head like, hmm, that was it. And that was the first time I realized you should not let people take your voice away from you, your identity or your jump rope, because it's yours. That was my first lesson. Again, going back to leadership MeQ, I had multiple things in my life that have caused me to be and understand and share this framework with the world.

8:28Because it wasn't something was created in a lab. It was not only because I did my dissertation on this. I also lived it. And that combination of really understanding the process and research, then also under having live experiences, that combination is what makes it so user-friendly and relatable. because first you have to figure out who you are, then understand with whom you're dealing, and then the other things, the qualities, are techniques that are all learnable. Right. Oh, this is good. Because especially when you, and I'm sure you've probably had this experience, where you interact with somebody, like the fraud example is one, but just in general, your ability to communicate with so many different types of people, different types of background, And people might look at you and it might seem like a magic trick.

9:27There's a specific je ne sais quoi that you have, but that's your accumulated experience. But then also the level of intentional learning that you've done and everything boils into what you are today. So it sounds like there's a lot that is based in your personal history and experience and explicit study. And so when you're teaching people, when you're coaching people, helping them to connect, helping them to persuade, helping them to manage folks' emotions, how do you make sure that they develop their skills while at the same time staying rooted in their authentic identity so they don't lose their personal je ne sais quoi?

10:08Did you look at my framework? I have a photo. This is great. Around this framework I have, which is MEQ, there's a circle. And in that circle, it says innovation, self-reflection, and core values. Those are the three things that makes me and you and everyone else unique. Being innovative, self-reflective, and our core values. Now, I like to say we need to always be an external observer of ourselves for inner growth. We tend to look inward like we're self-absorbed. But to be removed from ourselves and look at ourselves as an external person or an external being, that's where meditation comes in, right?

11:06So you start looking at yourself holistically. That's the first step. What am I doing to prevent me from getting what I want? Do I really want this? Am I wanting this because everyone tells me that I should get it? I actually helped before doing EQ, leadership EQ, I used to train people to pass certification exams through TAPA Institute. And many times people want to get certified because they want to get promoted. in their job, mostly the CPA, Certified Public Accountant, or CIA, which is Certified Internal Auditors, those type of exams, Certified Fraud Examiner, those exams. And I always ask them, ask my clients first five minutes of the conversation, why do you want this?

12:07why you're going to spend hours of your life crying and they usually break down crying too during this session just really why do you want this because they failed so many times they come to me after failing a few times because i analyze how they process information and then i teach them on their level. So to the point where I have a comic book and I have a movie about teaching the CPA audit part of the exam, which is going to come out this year and it's going to be on YouTube. We're going to actually put it out every Wednesday at a certain time so people could kind of see. not only I'm helping the people who are my focus group, but I believe that everyone can learn from each other.

13:00This is why I'm putting it out there. You don't have to be an auditor to appreciate and understand what I'm talking about. So the first thing I do is understand the person in front of me. That's number one. Because everyone comes in with the unique core values, innovation, and self-reflection. Before I could apply that framework, I need to understand what and who you are. This is so good because when you think about different frameworks that people would apply, so we have your coaching methodology, we have different conflict resolution frameworks, like For me, it's compassionate curiosity. In order to make that work, you have to be able to aim.

13:49You have to be able to understand the person because even though the core framework will be the same, the application and the way that you communicate it to the other person will be different based on the input that you get. And when you think about persuasion, a lot of times, especially when you're dealing with data, we often make the mistake of trying to persuade too soon where we're in a situation where we say, okay, I've done all the research. I've got the right answer. And now I'm going to provide the right answer. And now you will have the right answer. And then you're going to be on the same page just like me.

14:21And then we are shocked when that doesn't work. And so the necessity of taking the time to understand the other side deeply is crucial in any framework, anything that you're trying to do. Now, the thing is, I think most people when they listen to that, they'll say, okay, yeah, I understand the value of understanding. But this might sound a little bit meta, but what is it that people don't understand about what it is that you mean when you say you need to understand other people? Have you ever walked out of a meeting feeling really good about it? And then 10 minutes later, someone's messaging you saying something like, wait, what did we actually decide in that meeting?

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15:40It just fits nicely into the tools you already use. You can stay focused on the conversation and still walk away knowing exactly what decided and who's doing what next. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just head to granola.ai slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. The first thing that I ever got from Quince was this pair of really nice formal pants, but they were stretchy and made for travel. So for me as a lawyer and businessman, as I travel and I do these keynotes all over the world, it's really nice to be able to know that I could wear something that looks good in the airport, that's comfortable on the airplane, and I could wear comfortably if I have to roll into a meeting or an event right after getting off the plane, and it was only$60.

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17:08They carry that same quality into bedding, bath, kitchen essentials, and furniture, all designed with the same care. I use Quince and so should you. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. When you were talking, it made me realize some of the things that we often do as auditors, as risk managers. We spend hours researching things and we come up with the right answer.

17:54Quote, the right answer. Now, what I think is missing, and again, it goes back to my research, is that the world has changed. the leadership books that we've read were environments were in or set in environments where people came to the office. It's set in environments where we looked in each other's eyes and we could read someone's emotions or body language. So when I say understanding, Now we don't have those cues. We don't have, or they're a little bit different. We cannot use our senses to know if I'm leaning back that I'm not, I'm kind of just off put. I just don't feel like I want to hear you.

18:48But I may be leaning back in my chair in the Zoom meeting because I just want to be relaxed. So the cues may be a little bit different. That's the learning. So adjusting and being flexible enough, that growth, people like to throw a growth mindset, yeah. But being aware. It's actually being aware and saying that curiosity to use your words. Am I cleared? Am I reading the room correctly? And the room now is a Zoom room or whatever platform people are using. Now, how do you develop relationships when you have work environments that's your bedroom? Right? Or your living room. And someone else is across in different countries and cultural differences.

19:49The way I do it when I work is by having one-on-one conversations with them 15 minutes. So when I am in my auditor's role, as I run the chief audit executive, I am a chief audit executive for an entity. What I do is I have meetings with the leaders just to say hello. And they have outdoor activities, meaning they have parties to celebrate things. Attend. That's your opportunity. You got to attend. bar mitzvahs. I'm not Jewish. Go.

20:35You know, Eid. Go. If they invite, then go. Because that's that human interaction. That's that friendship. Then when something happens and when you need to be in front of them and convince them about a process, then it becomes easier. A couple of things that I want to dig into here, Sabine, because this has been a masterclass. Because you're asking yourself during these conversations, am I being clear? And the only way for us to know if we're being clear is if we can understand the other side. And here's what I mean. Because we might be able to communicate in a way where somebody that knows us or somebody else might consider it clear.

21:19We ourselves might consider that we are being clear. But the only person who could determine the clarity of our message is the recipient of the message. And the thing is, especially when you are in a technical field, talking to somebody who is not technical, we have the issue of ego, but not in the way that is obvious. Because if you're speaking in a technical type of way, in a way that is clear to you, you might stop and pause and say, hey, am I making sense to the other person? Now, the answer truthfully might be no, but they might say yes, because they don't want to look stupid, right? And so you have to go beyond the words of what the person is actually saying to be able to read the body language and see if there is a bit of a lack of understanding.

22:05And that won't always be obvious unless you're taking the time to pay attention. And the other thing too, we talked about, you talked about the importance of just showing up, having small one-on-ones. We're not talking about 90 minute meetings, just quick touch bases. This serves multiple purposes because number one, we are investing in the relationship bank account. We're creating these natural organic opportunities for positive interactions that builds trust, that builds warmth, that builds closeness. And now we have the other strategic angle of it too, because you're downloading data. What does this person look like at rest?

22:42What does it look like when they're feeling confident, when they're feeling secure, when they understand what I'm saying. And then when we have a conversation of consequence, we can pay attention to those deviations from the baseline. Okay. That body language I saw, that's not typical for them. They said they got it. Let me just circle back and approach it from a different way to make sure. And so this is the expert nuance that you're bringing here, because it's not just about the persuasion and the data and everything. It's about understanding the person on a much deeper level. And we can see how that amplifies our persuasion and communication too.

23:22And as we want people to do something different, and I'm going to go back to the profession that I love, and I want you to love internal auditors too. He smiles. All right. So

23:42I'm going to use your example. You said that, okay, the person you explain something, something technical, and the person in front of you is saying, yeah, I get it. But deep in their heart, they're like, what are they saying? I like to follow up with a question. I like to say, well, now that you and I are on the same page, how do you think, what's your suggestion on getting the team to digest this recommendation? That's usually my follow-up question because that opens up an opportunity for the person to start asking, oh yeah, well, we should do this and that. And I'm like, oh, but maybe because then I start listening and I could hear if he or she really understands the recommendation or the change I want them to implement in their area.

24:35So the follow-up questions are critical because people are like, yeah, yeah, I understand. I happen to talk, people, especially on your online, people are checking their emails or their phone is ringing. Who knows what's happening behind the scenes of that screen on their Zoom call? There may be chaos. so knowing that i like to always follow up with a question so how do we think we could have john implement this process because especially that most of the time i'm speaking to the senior leaders in the organization and they're not the ones who are implementing the process so of conveying it and having that conversation so that way i really get that buy and say oh maybe I should bring in John.

25:28Perfect.

25:31So that's how. This is good. This is great. And when I think about your background, again, it is so rich because we have the educational background. We have the cultural background. We have fraud. We have internal auditing and everything. But then we have hypnotherapy. So tell us about that. Because, you know, I think when people think about hypnotherapy, they think about the stage, hypnosis, that type of thing. So let's bring this back down to what it is that you actually do and the benefit it could have for folks. Well, let me tell you, first, I love my birthdays. Every year, my birthday is like a holiday.

26:16okay so every year i do something different i i say what haven't i what country i have not visited what new thing i could try i looked online and i saw hypnotherapy i was like okay i'll try it and it says that you could use hypnotherapy to lose weight I was like, hey, that's a win-win. I try something new and I could lose weight. Perfect. So I went to a hypnotherapy session and I started talking and they shared with me what is hypnotherapy. And it's basically you're talking to your subconscious mind. Your subconscious mind is where you really sit. The conscious mind is things that you've been programmed or been traumatized, and your defense mechanism is where that lies.

27:17And hypnotherapy is when the therapist speaks to your subconscious mind directly by putting you into a trance, and they work with what should be said. It's not I come up with the phrases. so I get the so she got me relaxed and helped me understand the connection of what I was with food or food was my thing right so that's why I went there to understand and help me figure out calmly and talk to my Sabine the true Sabine the subconscious level for me to not use food as a crotch that is what so now fast forwarding to how i use it in my work i was like this is fascinating i was losing weight i was feeling good and i was like all of this no drugs it's all your mind and i was trying to pass the certification exam and i said maybe i could use it to help me pass this exam because I was getting anxiety over this exam.

28:34Guess what? It worked. And I said, I'm going to learn how to do this. I learned from my hypnotherapist. I went through the course. I took the exams. I practiced how to do it. And now I've implemented into helping people self-hypnotize and for exam anxiety. That's what I do. And so I use that technique. And this is why I have such a high pass rate in my, my, one of my businesses, which is Tapa Institute, where the CPA exam across the nation is around 48 % pass rate. My clients, 85%. because we don't only help you with the material and I teach you on your level, but also I teach you to have to understand the answer is within you.

29:28The answer is within you. And we just have to tap it, tap it. So I use my hypnotherapy knowledge in not only in helping people pass certification exams, but training them to become more empowered, have their voice better heard, and also my fellow auditors to communicate and help change minds to implement processes in organizations. Incredible. And first of all, congratulations, kudos, because that pass rate is astronomical. That's really important. And it also shows the discrepancy between what you know and then what you could do in the moment. Because performance anxiety holds you back from being the best version of yourself when it matters most.

30:21And you can study, study, study, and learn everything you need. And it still might not be good enough if you can't perform in the moment. Same is true with tough conversations too, where you're in a situation where you, after the fact, isn't it interesting how after the conversation, we can remember what it is that we should have been saying after the conversation, but in the middle of it, our mind goes blank. And so when it comes to addressing performance anxiety in conversations, what advice do you have for our audience who might need to convey very technical messages in a persuasive way in a high stakes environment like internal auditors?

30:59Because you're helping folks make very, very high level decisions with data. So how do we make sure that our performance anxiety doesn't get in the way of having the conversation effectively. Remembering it's not all about you. You have to remember it's not all about you. It's a service. If you go in thinking you're providing a service to the person in front of you, then your nervousness disappears. If you're defending your inadequacies, or I don't know if I'm saying the words correctly. English is not my first language. I don't know if I'm sounding stupid. They have, you know, or whatever. You're shutting down your flow, your energy.

31:49And so if you think about, all right, what is the message? What I do, I actually posted about this on my LinkedIn recently Recently, because I do every day, I do posts on techniques on how to deal with life. And one of my things I posted is when you're when you go into a meeting. You shouldn't try. It's great. Get your documents ready. Get your documents ready. However, you need to audit your mindset. And you have to start thinking, what is the mission of the person who's going to be at this meeting? What is their mindset of that person? What is my mindset? Do I hate this person? And if I'm going to go for the jugular?

32:41You got to talk yourself out. I talk myself out of a lot of things in my life. So when you have these situations, when you're in the moment, yeah, you're going to have feelings, acknowledge them, take a deep breath and really figure out what is my core value. When we think about the core values, innovation, everything that we've been talking about, and then also the reality that you have to focus on the needs of other people. And sometimes when we look at ourselves and we become that internal observer, we recognize that some of the things that we want to say or do would be counterproductive. And that's something interesting to explore too, Sabine, because we hear so many people talk about authenticity, right?

33:30Be yourself. And some people say, take it as a license to just do whatever they want. Or say whatever they want. Or say whatever. It's like, well, I'm just being me. It's like, you are verbally abusive. Maybe you should change it, right? You know, maybe you should pull it back. So how in these moments, how do you check yourself? Because it's easy for us to just say check yourself, but the actual internal work that's required to do that in the moment is extremely difficult because it can feel like you're not just checking yourself, you can feel like you're sacrificing yourself in the moment. So how do you put your ego aside and focus on the other person when you are feeling so strongly?

34:18training is like going to the gym are you going to lift that hundred pound weight the first day maybe you can hurt yourself or you start out small every conversation is an opportunity to train i train myself every morning i meditate twice a day I sit here and I check myself. It's not easy. Not easy. Not to talk about politics in life. It's not easy. So as we live in an environment that is constantly changing, not only through through social issues, but also with AI, this job insecurity, forget about food insecurity, job insecurity. We have to, again, in that wheel of mine, I talk about continuous learning.

35:26I talk about character. I talk about self-care, mental, physical, social. that's that wheel that's that leadership meq and it's not just working on one thing guess what we are not one dimensional so we have to work on it you come through in everything you do so if you eat poorly you must be doing something else in that same kind of mindset and that's where the hypnotherapy comes in

36:05because the pathway of behavior has basically been etched in your mind from very young or from whatever trauma or traumatic. I call it trauma because life is traumatic. That's my interpretation. Take it for what it is. Those moments that develop you. Now, understanding that not every reaction requires, not every situation requires the same reaction. And so when you know your triggers, and my daughter knows my triggers, I have to take a step back. It's called mental gymnastics in the sense. You're really working that muscle for you to, and I'm from, I'm from the West Indies. That's like not even heard of so i i was just like this is a this is but after i after i calmed myself down then i started laughing i was like this girl has a lot of uh oops like uh i don't know i was like good for her i was like god just i was like that's a good characteristics to be so gutsy good for her as a child of Caribbean immigrants I endorse what you just said it is and you see Simone here busting up from Venezuela you know these are new things and it's really it's hard to hit a target that you don't know exists I remember after being on Mel Robbins somebody sent me a message and he said I did not know that I could control my emotions I didn't know that was a thing I didn't know it was possible.

37:55And what's interesting is that for people who listen to the podcast, for people who study leadership, when we think about emotional intelligence, we are at least conscious of it. Whether or not we practice it is a completely different thing. but we often take for granted just how well known these concepts are. That's the first thing. The second thing I want to dig into, which is the brilliant response that you had is training is how you're able to manage yourself in these tough conversations, in these tough situations. And the thing is, when you think about training, some people will almost give themselves an out and say, well, training is expensive.

38:36I don't have time to do the training? Well, life's going to give you plenty of opportunities to train these skills. And when you start to think about life as the ultimate training ground, then you recognize that you have opportunities to practice not just every day, just every moment of every day in different ways. And if you can start to think of yourself as somebody who is constantly in training, then you're going to start to get that level of mastery. And that's the thing. When you think about the 10 ,000 hour rule when it comes to achievement of mastery. It's 10 ,000 hours of deliberate practice.

39:14And it's not going to count. It's not going to work unless you are training with intentionality. What did I do well? I'm going to try to replicate that. What did I do poorly? Let me figure out why I did that poorly and try to do something differently in the future. And it's just constantly doing that. And what's interesting, and tell me if this resonates with you too, Sabine, because you'll recognize it's almost like a video game. All right. Level one used to be challenging and now you can handle it. And then you get to level two and level three. And then you realize that life is just full of infinite levels of emotion management.

39:48And so it's always going to be challenging. There's always going to be something to learn. But then when you take the moment and you have the self-awareness to say, hold on, Where am I currently? Where was I last year at this moment when something like this would have happened? Oh, you know what? I would have thrown a plate against the wall. You know, I would have freaked out. This is much better. And we have to celebrate those small wins because that gives us the motivation to continue to improve. Exactly. This is why I posted that story on my LinkedIn. Because I realized that, yeah, my reaction would have been a little bit different.

40:26if I were not practicing my framework. And I want to share, again, life is full of lemons. You have to make lemonade or sometimes trade those lemons for something else. And you have to realize that this is a training ground and you have to sometimes do a timeout. Timeout. I take vacation and my husband doesn't like this, but I tell him, I said, I need vacation three times a year. At least. And one vacation is on my own.

41:12He's like, why? Why would you want to? I was like, nah. It's not like I need to go in. Well, I usually go away to a quiet place. But the thing is, I need to be by myself. Relaxation and doing a timeout is essential for your development. And that's how you could go back in the game. It's just like with any sport. I used to be a weightlifter back in the day. Right? Yeah. And the thing is that you need rest days. Every muscle is trained differently. You need rest days. If you keep training, you're going to strain yourself or your muscles are not going to build the way it should be built. like your cell phone.

41:54You cannot plug your cell phone 24-7 because the battery will eventually start draining. I give examples that people could relate because a lot of times, and especially in doing research, there's a lot of technical jargon and it makes it unattainable for people. And my want, my desire is to help people understand this is attainable. It's not something that you do once and you put on the shelf. This is part of your DNA. It has to be, if you want to improve. It's not a 30-day challenge, 60-day challenge, let's do this a trend this is it and if you want constant you want to have your voice your visibility and your value for yourself and the world will see it the world will see it and this is where leadership starts from within and we hear these cliche we hear these terms all the time but it's one step at a time and and and if you have kids they are your challenge why did you think spaghetti would be great on the ceiling like they give you your challenges every single day yes oh this is so great and i want to bring in simone who's been listening patiently simone what is on your mind well um you are an expert on feedback to.

43:34One of the books that you've written is about feedback. And this is something I struggle being in a different culture. I struggle with that because people from Venezuela or from South America, they give and receive feedback in a very different way. I was lucky when I started to work with Kwame because he knows where I come from. So he says, hey, this is wrong. This is right. let's work so to me it's clear easy and direct so that's why we we we create a good team we make a good team but here in canada feedback is a lot uh less direct so i struggle a lot and i don't know how to properly give feedback and i don't understand when i receive feedback because sometimes when they say is this is not my favorite thing they're saying i hate it i like and i understand this is not my favorite oh maybe it's your second favorite or your third favorite but no they hate it so how for a person who comes from outside of this culture come from the caribbean how can i adjust my way of giving and receiving feedback very interesting so now i'm going to just talk about the word feedback, first of all.

44:52Okay. And I'll, I'll be happy to respond. I'll respond to your question. Feedback is not positive or negative. Feedback is someone's opinion.

45:07Clear. Feedback is not, I'm going to give you feedback. That's my opinion. So now the recipient, You could take it or you could leave it. Those are your choices in life. So when we start framing feedback accurately, well, clearly, then now let's answer the question. So far, are you with me? Yes. Okay? So it's not positive or negative. It's up to you how you interpret it. Now, let's flip it. So now they're telling you, you said something very interesting. You realized when they say, that's not my favorite, that means they hate it. So you're already understanding their language. As a person who English is not my first language either.

46:05It's not, I may, you may not hear the accent, but I do have accents. And English is my third language. we need to start there is always a gap of a comprehension because we're either translating or we have a cultural like you know this means yes this you know means no you understand we do these things that other people may not really understand oh they just had a whole conversation and they just blinked their eyes three times okay it's learning a language So if you now approach it as, I'm going to learn the language, the Canadian language of feedback. Then you start picking up what these words mean.

46:56That's it. So you started that already. You told me, oh, when they said, it's not my favorite, that means I hate it. All right. It's not my favorite equals hate. Now you know. Now you know. And so you start putting a little list together so that you could speak their language. That's what this is. Now, two. If you're receiving feedback and you think it's, like I said, you could take it or leave it. But I always like to digest it. people when they give me comments i don't react immediately i people like you just got promoted and i was like thank you very much i'm like yeah you have to process it i call it stop think translate stop think translate because you have to translate into your own language what was said then if you're still confused you ask them questions now you get their message fast forward you get their message and you're like that was nonsense disregard disregard so the reaction needs to be somewhat delayed or you hear them you translate you go they have a point I'll implement 30 % of it or all of it, depending on what it is.

48:39Because the receiver, you're the filter. You know who you are. Not everything someone says has to influence your behavior. So it's up to you how you react to certain things. Because then you could say, that feedback was intended to, even though you heard the words, were to destroy my confidence. I'm just making stuff up. Or this person really wanted to help me. And ask questions. Well, by you saying it's not your favorite, are you saying that what is your, what would be your favorite? Would be a good question, right? What would your favorite look like? Speak in their language. Did I respond to you?

49:26Yes. Thank you so much. My pleasure. I love this response because if I were to put nerdy language on this, it sounds like a lot of cultural intelligence and code switching authentically. Right. Yep. And because the thing is, if we the more granularity we can with which we can see the world, the clearer the picture is going to be. So if we say, okay, I'm speaking English, they gave feedback, not my favorite means this literally, then we're going to be limited. But if we think about feedback as a distinct language, what does the language of feedback mean in this culture or with this person? Then we can make the adjustment.

50:14Because what often happens is that we, I think there has to be a balance. We have to be shaping the world to a certain extent, but then also accepting the world as it is and then making authentic adjustments within that. So if it's an interpersonal conversation, we could give them feedback on how they give feedback. Perhaps we could do that. Perhaps. The other thing is recognizing that a lot of times, especially when we think about organizations, there's a hierarchical nature of feedback where maybe your boss might not be receptive to your feedback about feedback. So that probably isn't realistic.

50:50But what is realistic is to say, okay, I see what this person says. I see what they mean. I can understand their vibe. I can understand their lingo. And I can make adjustments for this person in this context to get a deeper level of understanding. That's incredibly powerful. And so when it comes to these situations, when we're feeling like we can't really connect or understand, just treat it like a cultural immersion program. I am entering their world and my goal is to understand. And when you think about it, then it becomes a fun exploration. Oh, now you start to understand this person and you communicate in a different way.

51:27And then for me, I, you know, I, I'm a weirdo, but I take pleasure a lot of times in knowing that there are people where other folks just cannot understand, can't get through to, can't connect with and are constantly frustrated by. And then I can go have an easy conversation. And they're like, how did you do that? How did you understand what they were saying? I took the time to immerse myself in their world and understand that sometimes the words that they use don't mean what they mean literally. They have a specific meaning for this particular person. And once you accept that, now the world becomes your oyster.

52:04Now these interactions become more fun than scary. You know, as an auditor, I actually, this is how, this is my nerdiness coming out now. I had a list on my computer with people's names and keywords if I want them to do stuff, keywords that I should use to get them to accept my audit findings. So I have a sticky note with people's names. And I have phrases that I parrot back or I realize this is how they process things.

52:47That's so good. It's real. So you step back out of yourself. You're like, what are they saying? Yeah, you got to figure out, okay, what are they saying? more of a curiosity as opposed to being annoyed. Exactly. Exactly. It takes practice. This is not like, oh, I'm just going to do this tomorrow. It takes practice. See, New York City, the city I love, is a great learning ground. You step out of your house, you are practicing immediately. Dealing with traffic, dealing with people who are talking to themselves, people who are frustrated about life. That, come to New York. I'm inviting all your people, all the people who are listening.

53:41Come to New York and use this technique. Then you'll start understanding New York is a great city. Yes. I'll tell you this. My son Kai, when he got there, he was blown away. he's like this is a different planet that we're on as a father there were a lot of uh you know interesting conversations i had to have about about what he was witnessing but you know i gotta roll with the punches yeah just they grow up fast they grow up fast so true sabine this has been fantastic. I really appreciate you coming in. And before you go, let's do this because I know you have the audit practice, but you also have the leadership competencies and everything that you do.

54:33Can you let the listeners know again the best way for them to connect with you and learn more about what you have to offer? Well, there are two ways. LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn, in Dr. Sabine Charles. Guess what? My website, drsabinecharles.com. And on my website, you'll see the work that I do. Not only am I a speaker, I also provide trainings, self-paced because everyone's busy. So you can begin to build and elevate your voice and your visibility and add value. We have self-paced courses, affordable. The other thing that I provide are workshops, corporate workshops, and also individual workshops.

55:29We have cohorts. And we step into working with what do you want to get out of this? Whatever this is for you. And my job, our job is for you to get to that within that timeframe. So it's a two day workshop with every other month, we call it implementation labs. Like I said, implementation labs, not podcast, not webinar, not I'm just going to check my emails while I'm listening and answering questions when they ask me. Implementation labs, where we implement the techniques that are necessary for you to get what you want. And then the third thing that I offer are retreats. I go around the world.

56:21We're having a retreat to Morocco. We're planning one to Belize. Again, it's about leadership, tapping into your greatness, tapping into your leadership and EQ. So you could find me on LinkedIn and I post every day on techniques. And then also we have on my website, you could find information and my book of Leadership MeQ, which is also in French, Spanish, Portuguese and English. And all of my courses are in those four languages, too. No barrier if you don't. So my friend, if you want it in French or Spanish, it's available to you. Amazing. Sabine, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

57:11Thank you for having me.