Selena Rezvani: Stop Trying to Prove You Belong—Be Yourself, and Go for It

0:00From the outside looking in, Selena's life looks almost perfect. She has a beautiful family, she's a best-selling author, and she's spoken at Harvard, Microsoft, the World Bank, and more. She has spent her entire career helping people just like you learn how to advocate for themselves. But today, we're going to take a different direction. We're going to ask her the questions that nobody ever asks. How does a person get like this? And why does she do what she does? It goes back to her teenage years. Her father passed away, and the loss didn't just hit the family emotionally, it crushed them financially.

0:35But thankfully she was still able to get into college with financial assistance, and it looked like things were finally turning around. Until next year's financial aid letter came back, and it wasn't enough. Her mother sat her down at the kitchen table with pain in her eyes and said, Selena, I'm sorry, I can't send you back. And this is where the story turns. This was the pivotal moment. This is where her journey into self-advocacy began, not out of just intellectual curiosity, but out of financial necessity. She had no leverage, she had no guarantees, just a decision that if anything was going to change, it had to start with her.

1:12The woman who dedicated her life to helping people like you and me advocate for themselves was born in that very moment where she had to learn how to advocate for herself. This is the story of Selena Rezvani. Welcome to Big Swings Only.

1:52to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let him know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. Playing it safe is easy. Playing it safe is comfortable. But here's the problem. Playing it safe and playing by rules that were never meant for you will never take you to the next level. If you've got what it takes to hit the ball out of the park, The only thing holding you back is whether you're brave enough to take a big swing. I'm Kwame Christian, and this is Big Swings Only.

2:26Every week, we're telling you the stories of people who fought their fear, chased the life they actually wanted, and became who they had to become to get it. This show is built for people who are meant for more, because if you really want to get to the next level, you've got to do something big. So the question isn't whether or not you've got what it takes. The question is whether or not you're going to swing. You were built for more, and this show was built for you. Subscribe now. The world knows you as this leadership expert. They go to you to get this information. It would be cool to show the journey of who you were before this.

3:04Yes, I was in college, right? I had gone to my first year, and I loved it. Like, I was in my element. I had found my place. I was, like, happy with my decision. And lo and behold, we get the letter for the next year from the financial aid office. And they have given me significantly less financial aid, which my family needed. My dad had passed away when I was a teenager. So it was a struggle to send me to school, even with the school's help. But here I had less financial aid. And my mom sat me down at our kitchen table, pain in her eyes. And she said, Selena, I'm sorry, I can't send you back. And I knew in that moment, if something was going to change the outcome here, it had to start with me.

3:58You know, my mom had never been to a four year college, let alone, you know, heckled with the financial aid office. And so I wasn't sure what to do, but it was time for a bold swing. And so I wrote this long letter to the financial aid office saying, essentially, please keep me. Please reconsider. These are the ways I want to add to the university life and values. These are all the jobs I'm willing to take, you know, cafeteria worker, tour guide, financial aid office helper, you know, whatever it is. And to my shock, Kwame, they changed that package. They increased that package so I could go not just for year two, but for year three and year four.

4:47And they gave me all those jobs, by the way, as well. So I, yeah, I knew that university inside and outside by the end, because I'd been in so many offices and like pushing so many carts and things. But my goodness, it taught me that asking that form of making a bold swing, and you know this better than anyone, Kwame, can change your life, can change the direction of your life. And I went on to teach that skill to women in particular. But as a recovering good girl, someone who learned, don't be difficult, only take enough, don't ask for too much. It took a lot for that young 19-year-old to do.

5:36And I'm so grateful for it. I still have the letter, Kwame, believe it or not. I think written on a typewriter. This is so great. And I love being able to see this aspect of you because everybody sees you as the Selena Rizvani, right? The best-selling author who everybody follows for the best leadership advice. And it's so fascinating to explore who you were before that because you were always yourself, but you shaped yourself by taking these big swings and bold moves. And I want to go back to something that you said, because there's a lot of depth to this. And I think it could reveal a lot of behind your mindset.

6:22You said, it had to start with me. And I think that's really interesting, because you said, theoretically, it could. You didn't say that. You didn't say it should, or maybe it could. You said it had to. Why did you phrase it that way? You know, anyone who has a single mom knows that they are incredible and they are the masters of doing a lot with a little. And my mom is a great example of that. But she had a lot going on. She had multiple jobs, you know, things that were not my college future. And I realized this is, Selena, a moment for you to step up and take some ownership. You know, you might be a youngish person and barely an adult, but this is your moment to seize.

7:15I think it just felt like a natural progression. And I think in life, sometimes you have those moments where you're very aware, I don't passively sit here and find out what happens. This is a moment for me to stand, you know, step up and make something happen. And maybe that thing is going to be a no. We can't. Maybe it's going to be a yes. Maybe it's going to be something better than you dreamed of. But I'm grateful for that moment of pressure that hit me that said, this one's on me. so there's an awareness there's like that gut instinct that you know whatever it is whatever the situation is this is one of the most important moments of my life and you have a choice to actually either do something about it and actively make a concerted effort to move in a certain direction or passively sit by and let fate and circumstance dictate the decision for you and I I feel like that's something that people often miss.

8:18Even inaction is action in a sense. Indecision is making a decision. And it's a decision to forego the ability to make a decision for yourself. Yes, I think you're absolutely right. And you're not immune to it, even if you are the most networked person or you're very rich in relationships. You could have all the rallyers and supporters and sponsors at work and like people lobbying for you, nobody is going to take that big swing on your behalf. Right. In my case, with that college moment, nobody was going to be that inner advocate, right, that I needed in that moment with the fire that I had for the situation.

9:10And so I think it was important that letter come from me, because I think had it come from someone else, a family member, it wouldn't have the same power potentially. So those moments are special. And I literally think back to that often. I really do. It's not like it happened, you know, 20 some years ago, it feels like a really instructive moment in my life. let's go back to the moment and i want to hypothesize a different an alternative ending like this is a goosebumps book right and so imagine you didn't take that risk you didn't write the letter you just sat idly by and accepted your fate and did something else what would that have told you about yourself looking back at that moment if you didn't take that swing I think there would have been an element of like a defeatist mindset.

10:14This either isn't worth pushing or I already know what kind of answer I'm going to get. There's no way a school's going to lay out this red carpet and welcome me in without the resources I need. So I think there's sometimes this defeatist mindset, which can be protective, you know, it feels like armor. I'll reject myself from this before you can. And maybe that protects me from a little bit of pain because I'm preempting. But unfortunately, it also preempts you from any opportunity because you deny yourself any opportunity when you put that armor on to go back to the table and say, how about, or what do you think of or would you consider?

11:04So I think it serves you when you're taking big swings to channel your inner optimist. Because if you're going to walk around with the skeptical defeatist mindset, the decision's already made. I think it's okay to be a little delusionally optimistic sometimes. I agree 100%. And a lot of the dreamers are. You have to be in many ways because you're You're trying to create something or create a different lifestyle for yourself that doesn't yet exist. So there's a hearty dose of imagination blended with belief that's required to even have the audacity to try. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And there's a phrase that's helped me even recently in life to keep taking those risks and those swings.

11:53And it might sound a little cheesy, but it works for me and for my coaching clients, too. And it's instead of being hyper fixated on failure, which is easy to do. What if I mess up? What if I humiliate myself? What if I screw up this project? Taking that off the table for a minute and having it not be the center of your focus and instead saying to yourself, I'm either going to win or I'm going to learn. You know, what if failure wasn't this like looming cloud over your head? And instead, you're entertaining these other two kind of healthy, good things. I'm either going to win or I'm going to learn.

12:41None of it's wasted. And I think that helps, you know, even the boo-boos and the mess ups when you look at it that way. I'm going to take that with me. I'm going to be better for it. I'm going to know more next time. It's much more empowering. 100%. And you know what's really interesting too? Even when we think about winning versus losing or winning versus learning, one thing that I've recognized, I was just journaling about this last night. Tell me if this resonates at all. So we live life afraid of failure a lot of times, and we drive toward what we think success is. But I started looking back and I recognized that I'm usually, I'm often not very good at understanding what a win is versus a loss and vice versa.

13:28Because there are times where there's something specifically that we want and then we get it. And then we realize that bad things happened as a result of getting that thing. And then there are times in our life where we are fighting like hell to avoid a certain outcome. And then that outcome happens. And then we realize I wouldn't be who I am today without that. I needed that. And so even the concepts of winning and losing are often very, we don't have a full understanding of it because we're very bad at predicting what would be good for us extended out into the future. Yeah, you're right. I think sometimes those even yuckiest, cringiest losses did inform something better or helped create room for a new opportunity you needed.

14:18And so I think it's an interesting thing to describe it. One of the things I've noticed is we have the power to define what a win is. And in terms of staying motivated in life to keep at it, to keep being bold, to keep going, I find it's a lot easier to stay motivated when I have a streak of little wins. And I find a lot of achiever types don't like to acknowledge little wins. They want to acknowledge the big proposal that got accepted, you know, the big bid, the big project that's, you know, over the line. And there's a real reticence, and I've actually noticed it even a little more with my male coaching clients, to kind of sit back and savor and enjoy that little W win.

15:15And yet it's like one of the best ways for human beings to stay motivated and to stay in the game, not to make it just your Mount Everest. But how about the fact that you took a little trek today when you absolutely didn't want to and you weren't in the mood? Maybe it wasn't Mount Everest, but you still did it. Look at you. You kept that promise to yourself. That's worth celebrating. I'm also a rewards person, so I like little deals that I make with myself, you know, not even for anything huge. But just, you know, after this, we're, you know, try to get this one thing done and we're going to go take a snack break.

15:58We're going to go take a walk. We're going to call up my sister and joke around with her. And I think we all need that. But remember, you get to define wins and you can make it really hard and severe for yourself, like a scary, perfectionistic, high stakes or nothing world. Or you can make it more enjoyable and a place where you're like pumped to keep going. Have you ever walked out of a meeting feeling really good about it, and then 10 minutes later, someone's messaging you saying something like, wait, what did we actually decide in that meeting? That gap between what happened and what anyone remembers is exactly what Granola AI closes.

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19:19I remember, you know, part of my origin story is the negotiation competitions from law school. And so we, I stumbled into a negotiation class and I was a people pleaser at the time. And it taught me how to advocate for myself. And we had these negotiation competitions that were formulated like moot court. So you and a partner were negotiating on behalf of a fictional client in front of a set of judges. Some of them were actual judges, which was terrifying as a law student. And so we won the competition at Ohio State. And then we represented the school at the regional competition for the American Bar Association in Ottawa, Ontario.

19:57We won that too. And then we made it to the semis of nationals. Thank you, in Louisiana. And this is where it gets, you know, not great. So we made it to the semis. I didn't like that we didn't win. and they said, here's an award, you know, a certificate. And I left, I wanted to leave it there. I'm like, listen, I didn't come here for this consolation prize. I came here for number one. And my coach was like, first of all, take your award. Okay. And second of all, he said, Kwame, I used to live my life thinking the way that you do, where winning was like oxygen, and it was only as good as the next win.

20:40And then you couldn't appreciate anything other than the purest form of victory. And let me tell you, that is a very hard way to live. It's a very hard way to live. And I didn't fully understand it because I thought, especially when we look at so many high achievers, they have this drive that comes from a dark place where they say, I don't want to lose. I don't want to have this outcome. If I don't get this, then I'm nothing. And then that it's a pathological drive for achievement at the cost of your identity. Because you're like, this achievement is my identity. And it can be very scary to let that go because it got you to where you currently are.

21:19So I'd love to explore how you work with clients who have that type of mindset where they say, but Selena, I can't celebrate the small wins. Then I'll get satisfied. And dare I say content? then how could I be successful from a position of mental health? So can you walk us through how this works? Yeah. I mean, look, there's great research from a professor at Harvard called Teresa Amabile that shows the way we stayed motivated is to make progress on something that has purpose for us. And so when we mark little wins, what are we doing? We are labeling progress is happening, right? It's not going under the radar.

22:05It's not unnoticed. We're saying, wow, I got from A to B today on writing my report. Let's note that I'm going somewhere and I feel momentum behind me. So I think that's one reason, right? It just keeps us going to know we have accomplished something. I think the other thing is I know I had faulty thinking from my childhood that being an achiever made me more lovable, like more worthy of love. I grew up in a really complicated house as the youngest of four kids. My dad was sick with chronic health problems and had like a very trigger happy temper. So the message I got as a kid was, there's no room for fuss making.

23:01Don't need anything because this place is too busy and kind of frantic with what we have going on. And I noticed when I didn't have needs, I was self-sufficient. One way I could get my mom and dad to smile, right, in all this drama was to get an A. And I think very quickly cemented for me, I'm more lovable. This is how I bring something to this family, some peace or some little good thing. And it has taken a lot to unbecome that in my own life and say, no, you're more things than that, Selena. You're more things than the LinkedIn top voice or the things that there's a big part of me wants to totally hang my hat on those things.

23:55But the truth is with therapy and just self, I think self-work too, I've realized, you know what electrifies me just as much, if not more as that outer accolade? Texting my friend because she's been going through a hard time. Like just remembering in this week, like, oh, I'm concerned about her. Let me just take the three seconds to send her a how are you doing text. I'm thinking about you. So I think there's something to be said in us achievers of finding some esteem in other parts of ourselves, really making a point to say, what are there times do I really like myself? Like maybe I'm picking up trash in my neighborhood, you know, maybe I'm working hard to train for a 5k.

24:54You know, that's still achievement oriented now that I catch myself, but like, um, you know, maybe it's just how I feel partaking in my book club or something. But I think that's important to like mark and even amplify. You know, I'm more than the letter great. Yes. And that's, it's so powerful, but incredibly difficult to come to. Because what you were able to articulately synthesize in 90 seconds probably took years to get to that point. Right. No, you're so right, Kwame. And I can't, you're right. It sounds like a, you know, neat soundbite now. But for so long, it wasn't. It was like a puzzle.

25:43And I remember people I care about close to me were like, you know, I just worry, Selena, it's never enough for you. Like achieving. Like they would say things like that. But I like, and I was like, you're not wrong. but I don't know what to do with that. Like, how do I make it make sense? And so I think a lot of us go through that. We might have like little flags go up either in ourselves or other people are raising them. But it takes time to pull it together and see the bigger view. And thank goodness for therapy and coaches for that. And I think one of the things that makes this so challenging is that the behaviors that are almost the most problematic as it relates to shedding this achievement-driven identity are also the ones that are most celebrated by society, right?

26:39So just like when we're the children, when we're children, it's, hey, I've got an A, that means I'm good. And now you do more things at a greater scale with hundreds of thousands of people, millions looking at you and you're like, wow, so I achieve more. That's better. That's more love for me. And if I feel like if this addiction that we have to not feeling like we're enough is very difficult to overcome because of that, because there's so much positive reinforcement. If it was something flagrantly bad, then everybody would be telling us to chill and stop doing it. You're right. But it's also so interesting about where we set the bar.

27:23Like I think about your law school competitions example. So many people would look at that and think just you participating in the very first one was such an accomplishment. Right? For a young law student, that's a big deal to shoot your shot and say, I'm going to try this. that alone is a victory to be participating in it. But someone else's bar could be, I've got to win that. And then I've got to slam dunk the next thing. And then I need to be crowned king of this or that. And so it also takes time, I think, to realize us grownups, we are setting the bar now. We are setting the standard and again, defining what is a success or a win or not.

28:15And I found that being more compassionate with myself hasn't made me go totally soft, which I was afraid it would, but it's also made me feel more compassionate with other people. Like, oh, you're in a season of life right now where this isn't possible for you. Okay, got it. Like, let's see where we can shift things. It's hard to be that empathic, understanding human when you're not even like that with yourself. You're so right. You're so right. And it's funny because you keep on talking about the bar. And so for me as a lawyer, I think about the bar exam, the test that tortured me for a whole summer.

28:58And then three days, Selena, three days of my life. And one thing that was, I mean, it was horrible. It was horrible. But one thing that I appreciated about it was this, is once you pass the bar, you've gotten to that point where you say, you're a lawyer, job is done. This is great. You've made it to that point. and that was nice but like you said the biggest one of the biggest challenges for high achieving adults is that a lot of times nobody's setting the bar for you you're setting the bar for yourself and one of the things that I've recognized for myself is that the bar keeps on moving because I set the bar here and then I get there and then I get habituated to it and then I have these friends like Selena who keep on writing these best-selling books

29:49so how do you handle the moving bar phenomenon i think one of the things is to give yourself like what i call beginner's permission because if you are growing okay you're pushing yourself out of something you know and for anybody listening this could be a promotion you're saying yes to, making partner, being elected to something, just taking a bigger leadership role. We have a tendency to want to downplay our newness and almost act as quick as we can, like we know how things work. And that's not a very compassionate way, by the way, to handle yourself, it's also not a really compassionate way to lead.

30:38Because what you're doing when you're trying to perform competence and certainty is you're modeling that for others. So they're going to ask fewer questions for fear of looking dumb. They're going to talk less in meetings, right? Because they shouldn't say stuff unless they're certain. And I think there's something wonderful, I talk about this in quick leadership, we get from some of that beginner's permission. If I'm going to shoot my shot, if I'm going to take big swings, I have to embrace the fact that there's going to be some wobble in my legs. And it's, you know, I think about people who are really good at this is little kids.

31:23You know, like I think about my twins going to the playground. the first time they saw the monkey bars and they're looking up at them, they're not like, I'm going to stink at this or I'm so cringe. I don't even want to try and be that awkward beginner. They're like, what are they doing? They're like throwing a leg up somewhere on the ladder. They're putting their hand on one of the rungs and probably slipping a little bit. You know, they are hoisting one leg over the top and maybe fall down or slide off. And there's something to be said for that. There's some page we can take from kids books or the kid playbook to allow that messy start and to take a little pressure off.

32:14So if somebody got promoted, for example, I recommend focus on the day to day work at first. You know, make a rule with yourself that there's this grace period. I'm not allowed to make conclusive statements about how this is going to turn out for at least two weeks. Like, I'm hopeless at this, for example, or this will never work out. It can be tempting to do that sometimes. But like, when you're doing this, you're like sitting in some of that discomfort and you're tolerating it. maybe you're even embracing it and saying, this means I'm doing it right. This means I'm stretching out of what's comfortable.

32:59What I'm hearing is that perfect execution requires a lot of imperfection. And we think perfect is just, it's a myth. It's just, it is not true. And when we see something that's too perfect, we immediately get skeptical because we know that nothing is perfect. So somebody here is lying. And what's fascinating, tell me, tell me if I'm looking too deeply into this, Selena, because especially for you as a leadership expert, everybody check out Quick Leadership. I'm thinking about how this mindset is protective in so many ways, because number one, when you have those inevitable stumbles, you can conceptualize it well enough to say, this is part of the process.

33:46Why would I be good at something that I just started? And then also it protects you from a lot of social ire from your colleagues, because you're not going to look like a jerk because you're actually embodying true humility. You're not trying to act humble. You're saying, I'm not perfect. I will make mistakes. I made mistakes. Did you make mistakes? And then people feel comfortable being more vulnerable. It creates psychological safety, which elevates everybody's performance. You're so right. And there is such a great ripple effect when as, let's say, a new leader, you can say something out loud like, I'm new to this part, right?

34:29It's such a simple statement. Like, I'm still new to this, or I'm new to this part, or I'm still gathering background on how the back end works. it's such a little thing, but you admitting where you are in the process, as you said, is such a smart, humble move. And it creates this environment of psychological safety. I'm passionate about this in quick leadership because it has so many positive ripples on your team. When you have that sense of safety, what are you going to have? People are going to hazard a guess or share a little bit of an out there idea, which is often where brilliance is sitting, you know, they're going to be comfortable dissenting, saying something like, I know everyone's in agreement that, but I have this concern if we go that route.

35:25You know, they're comfortable taking a risk. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, And like, those are some of the signs you're doing this well. And just back to that other thing, they feel comfortable asking questions. There's like a no dumb questions vibe on the team. It's welcome. And so such an important thing to do as a leader. And there's so many ways you can build it. Yes. And now let's talk about the psychological safety, the vulnerability, and how in many ways that emanates out from self-compassion. Because you're absolutely right. It's very difficult for us to demonstrate compassion and have true compassion to other people if we're not giving it to ourselves.

36:15There's something that we're holding back. And then your upbringing sounds a lot like mine in the sense that we're both driven by our parents to do very, very well in school. And that's important. Now, when you take all of this and then we think about you as a mother, how has all of this changed the way that you parent your twins? Hmm. I think I have a temptation sometimes to be that polished leader for my kids, just like there's a temptation to be that on LinkedIn or, you know, as the business author leader. And one of the most freeing things I'm learning to do with them is share my whoops moments, my mistakes, my little heartaches.

37:13They knew I was going to give a new talk, like a brand new keynote. And I got my feedback back. And guess what? It wasn't on par with my time-tested best keynotes. It was a little bit lower. And there was some helpful feedback in there for me. But being able to share that with them, I'm a little down today. I'm going to get past it, but I'm just feeling like I had hoped for better and I'm a little bummed out. It just feels so good. Adults in my life didn't necessarily do that and show the vulnerability of having a job like mine, but I think it exists in everybody's job. No matter if you're on a factory floor or you're in a white glove law firm, you have those little moments of feeling diminished or bad about yourself and those moments of like sweet victory too.

38:10And so I try to really show them all of that partly because I want them to show what it's, see what it's like to be an entrepreneur. You know, it's not all roses as you well know Kwame. It's not all, you know, mimosas and little ponies to pet. It's, it's, it's got its ups and downs. And so there's something about real talk that means a lot to me as a parent. And I think that's mirrored in leadership. I'm not sitting here as the oracle who knows everything as the leader. I'm not sitting here as a bulletproof person who has no feelings or difficult things I'm carrying on my heart or in my life. You know, so I think there's some definite parallels there that make you a better parent and leader.

39:02first of all crushing this absolutely crushing it i know you are i know you know so we've talked about some of your swings from the college years and some of the the mindset shifts that you've made in order to still continue to achieve at a high level but doing that from a place of wellness i'd be interested to see if there's something that happened after college that also helped to shape you when it comes to big swings that you've taken yes um there's a big one and this is a story I share with people because I hope it can help them and that they can see themselves in it. But I'd say mid-career, shortly after starting my own business and going off on my own, I got this out of the blue, incredible phone call.

39:48And it was from a huge, well-known tech company. I was working on women and leadership at the time, writing columns, writing books, speaking to audiences. And they said to me on the phone, Selena, how would you like to interview to be our next global spokesperson? And I thought like, what? This is so cool. Like, think about how this could make, you know, the world of tech a little more gender inclusive, more welcoming to women. Like what an opportunity. And of course I played it cool in the moment. I was like, well, let me check my calendar and see if I'm free. But I was like fist pumping in the air silently.

40:28I was so excited. Life goals excited. Well, I prepped for that interview as the days get closer and something started to happen. I found my self-doubts were screaming. And I remember thinking to myself, you know what? I don't belong here. Like in this lineup of candidates. I didn't know who else was invited to the party. and fast forward to the interview itself I look back at that and I did not bring my me-ness you know my Selena-ness from the outfit I wore to my energy you know the ideas I put forward I played it safe and I kind of gave them this watered down like diet Pepsi version of me and I kind of learned that day, by the way, you might not be shocked that I got one of those polite rejection emails, you know, Selena, thanks for coming, stay in touch, but we're going to go in another direction.

41:45And it was like, ouch, poof, that is gone. And I took some days to lick my wounds and eat a lot of Milano cookies, okay, under the covers and just like feel bad. And I remembered something she said, she said, keep in touch. And about a week later, I reached out to her, I said, listen, I know this other opportunity didn't work out, but I have an idea for you for a different collaboration. You know, I think we should do a study together on people's negotiating habits. And I think we'll find some really neat insights. And just like that, Kwame, she said, yes, I think that's a great idea. And we did co-write the survey.

42:39We launched it around the world and we found some really cool and unexpected insights in there. And they made me the spokesperson for that campaign. You know, so going back to I'm either going to win or I'm going to learn, you know, I didn't have a lot to lose in that follow up email. You know, in my mind, I had already lost one opportunity, but there was only upside if they were willing to entertain this other one or to say yes to it. And I learned so much from that moment about questioning your belonging versus affirming your belonging. And of course, I learned that like launch a do over, author a new ending.

43:32if you're upset with the way it went, which I was very upset, mostly with myself, see if you can go back and make the value shine through or ask under slightly different circumstances. And that will always stay with me as a big shot that I'm glad I took. That's so good. There's so many things that we can pull from this. One of the things is if if my mentality is if I'm going down, I'm going down swinging and I'm going down swinging as Kwame Christian, I'm not going to lose pretending to be somebody else. If you're going to reject someone, you're going to actually reject me because I, I'd rather lose on my terms than win as somebody else, you know, and that it sounds like that was the thing that bothered you the most because you, you muted yourself in that audition.

44:27And you said, I didn't even, I didn't even give myself a real chance. I gave somebody else. I was possibly like hybrid person. You're so right. And that's a beautiful mindset you're, you're talking about and, and you use yourself about going down as the real you and not some, um, conformed, you know, you forming yourself into a pretzel you think other people will like. And yeah, it was such a lesson in that. I would rather bring the quirk and the weird, the wonderful. That's when good things happen. And when you do it the other way, where you water things down, nobody wins. They don't win because they don't get to see the real you and you don't win.

45:13You have zero satisfaction that you brought it. Yes. And Selena, this makes me wonder. It's sometimes, perhaps, that a bit of the imposter syndrome we feel is self-imposed. So we play the game, maybe even a game that we shouldn't even be playing, and then we have to pretend to be somebody else. And then we get the thing that we want. And now we're stuck pretending to be this random person we invented for this opportunity. And we feel like an imposter because we actually are. You're so right. And I think that's why there's a lot of disillusionment with corporate America today and people feeling like I'm playing a game to advance and move up that I don't necessarily approve of that doesn't necessarily align with my values that I may not be intrinsically motivated to go after, but it's the environment I'm living in, you know?

46:18And I think you really nailed it that it's like this imposter parfait of layers. The further you get away from yourself, the worse it is. And so I love your kind of mandate to go down swinging as yourself. Like what a freeing and wonderful thought. Yeah. It's a very, it takes a lot of confidence. I wasn't always like this for sure, but I realized that rejection isn't that bad as long as I'm making sure I'm getting rejected by the right people for the right reasons. Because if I'm going to be 100 % myself. And let me say something briefly about authenticity. There are going to be different versions of ourselves that are authentic in different situations.

47:07So I can be authentically myself with my boys back from college and authentic with my four-year-old, and they're very different people. It's not the same person, right? And so if I'm taking an opportunity or trying to do something different, even if I'm going into a new environment, I'm going to craft an authentic version of myself for that environment. But if I'm going into that environment, compromising in a visceral way where it doesn't feel comfortable, and I'm still trying to get an opportunity, then that is inauthentic ambition. And I'm curious for you, because when we look at your career, it's very unique.

47:48What is the through line for your authenticity and identity? And how does that shift authentically with time? Wow, what a great question. And one that I've never been asked before. But that's such a great question. And I think the through line for me has been, I wish I was less judgmental about my authentic self for a lot of my life. And I wish I had been willing to show that. Not even necessarily lead with it every moment, but to let that out and not have so many overthinking, ruminating thoughts about is that enough? Is that okay? Is that too weird? Is that too strange a sense of humor to bring to this audience?

48:39And I wish I'd just brought it because when I think about some of the people I admire, the last word I would use to describe them is perfect. I don't go to a keynote and describe it as perfect. I don't meet a person and describe them as perfect. I use other words, right? Like, wow, they really touched me in their keynote, or they shared stories I really related to. They were uplifting, you know, or meeting a new person. Wow, they seem so genuine, or they seemed really interested in me, or we had a lot in common. And I think I didn't realize that for a long time. So it was prejudging who I am, almost beating people to the punch, and therefore, like tamping that self down, you know, oh, it's safer to give them the like, Deloitte approved Navy Blazer Selena, you know, instead of the one with cockeyed optimism and a strange sense of humor.

49:49and weird hobbies. You know what I mean? And now I'm like, wow, now that I'm in my late 40s, I'm like, life is too short for that. Life is so much more joyful when you embrace your weird, your wonderful, your interests, and people can think what they think. You know what's interesting? I feel like the happiest people each year start to care less about what people think. Have you noticed that? Yes, I have. I absolutely have less apology, more freedom. And I like to think that they're a little more comfortable with other people doing them. and a little less hung up on all the little things, less easily offended by every little thing from others and a little more, I think, accepting of how life and people can be.

51:02And just even as somebody approaching 50, not very long, there's an awareness that like you don't have forever. This is not your 20s when it just feels like this wide open canvas that's going to go on forever. There's some awareness like, you know what? Let's make it count. You know, this is like finite time. Make it count with what you've got. And I'd like to think that's part of where that clear-eyed, I need to care less about what they think about me. Because someone's always going to think something. I've learned that a lot, Kwame, and probably you have too as a creator. Someone putting content out there.

51:50Like you might share your inner most vulnerable thing and someone will be like, you have weird eyes. You know, that happened to me. Oh, my God. You know what's funny? I don't know if this happened. You've had this experience. But we both had internet criticism. I remember I had one situation earlier this year. It's objectively hilarious. Because there was a clip that came out from a podcast where I told, it was in flow. So contextually, it made a lot of sense, but it was in flow. And I told this funny story about how I took a Calculus II class when I didn't need to take a Calculus II class. And I was learning these things that would be irrelevant for me.

52:39And I said that we learn a bunch of irrelevant stuff, but we don't learn things like how to have difficult conversations, have tough conversations. Those aren't mandatory. They should be that type of stuff. and just because and then I told the story later about like immediately after that about working with NASA engineers but the but the clip that clip was me saying oh you know I took calculus too and we learned something stupid this stuff is irrelevant and everybody who saw that hundreds of thousands of views and thousands of comments 100 % negative they're like man this dude hates math this guy's anti-math oh my goodness the math warriors came out i was i was thinking hold on you think i went on to this this podcast right to talk about math being bad yeah to finally get it off your chest right and clear the air it was so funny and it was so cartoonishly ridiculous ridiculous that I used to really be concerned about the criticism I could potentially get online.

53:50And then when it happened in such a dumb way, I said, this is a silly way to living in fear of this nonsense. What are we doing? What are we doing? And I think as we get a little bit older, we start to care less about the things that don't matter. I think it's care and mattering, because there are these things that happen, and then the judgment of other people. And as we're younger, we think this has such a shaping impact on our lives. And depending on the circumstance it could, but we often overestimate the impact of people's judgment or negative perceptions of us. And then we live our life and we say, hold on, people have been judging me the whole time and I've been living my life.

54:27Why do I care about these things? There are other things that I care about, maybe gardening or something else. And then it liberates you to actually live a life that is according to your own design. I think that's so smart. And I think you're right. I think it also goes back to the finding esteem in yourself from multiple roles, whether that is friend, professional, partner to someone, dad, mom, you know, so that you're not one thing, You know, because if your identity is hanging on something external, which I've been there, I have certainly been there. It just takes one bad week, you know, to knock you off your game and your sense of like groundedness.

55:22That's not sustainable, you know. So I think there is some joy and freedom in saying you can hate what I did. And like, by the way, some of my haters are sometimes right. And I do appreciate that or critics will point something out like I you didn't think of this angle of it. And I'm like, you're right. Like you are making me smarter. You know, but then there's always those you have weird eyes, people. And that's just always going to be there. And I think there's a beautiful quote that's just like, you can be the juiciest, most ripest peach and somebody will be like, I hate peaches. So like, there's some there's something about accepting that, that like, just like you and I probably tell our kids like, oh, it's okay if you don't click with everyone.

56:18Like not everyone is for you and you're not for everyone. And it's kind of the same. Yeah. When I was writing my last book, I saw the I wanted to make a point about how perspectives can shift significantly with time. And I said, well, and they did a study and I'm going to butcher these numbers, but just conceptually, they are accurate. Right. So the approximation, Martin Luther King Jr. had an approval rating when he was alive of like 40 percent, 30 percent, something like that. And now he has an approval rating of about 93 percent. And I was going to make the point of how far have we come? And then I said to myself, who are these 7 percent?

57:03Oh, yeah. And I said, if Martin Luther King Jr., people like Gandhi or Mother Teresa, if these folks, Abraham Lincoln, if these people don't have 100 % approval ratings, what chance does a mere mortal like me have? So there are going to be people who don't like it. And then also going back to it, this is all rooted in humility, where if there is legitimate feedback, we can incorporate that and then make the adjustment. Because it's not about us being higher than thou or just inaccessible to criticism. It's about we have to conceptualize it and not let that fear of criticism hold us back from taking the big swing and living our life the way that we want to live it.

57:49yeah you're so right and I think sometimes we get wrong ideas in our heads I know when I started public speaking I uh you know felt young at the time because I was in my 20s and I almost felt like I needed to make up for that like it was a liability a little bit so I acted extra expert-ish and like really wore that suit like armor and didn't let them see my soft underbelly. And it was such a mistake. I would like take that person and say, like, your stories are what make you you. Don't be afraid to tell the pie in the face story where you were embarrassed or the story that is a great illustration of gender and leadership, tell it.

58:40But I think so many of us walk around thinking, my ideas, my stories aren't special enough. Like, you know, just because most of us don't think that. And I think that the thing is, they don't always need to be special. I think they need to be relatable and connecting. You know, you could be talking about communication with your team and like, tell them a story about your Uber driver and you and how you had a miscommunication. Like, you know, it's not that it needs to be some perfect thing. If anything, I think people will appreciate it when it's not, when it's got rough edges or it's, oh yeah, I've done that.

59:27I've been on a ride that's totally going the wrong way or hesitated to speak up or any of these things. So I think there's something to be said for turning down that inner critic of, I don't have enough. This isn't helpful enough. And as we've been talking about this whole time, getting in there and trying it, trusting that I have just as good a shot as anyone else. Yes. Yes. And that last part is so encouraging too, where you say, why not me? It's such a powerful question where you say, oh, somebody should do this or somebody could do this. well, why not me? And when you ask that and you realize there aren't any real good answers, then you get to a point where you say, well, now I almost have no excuse to not take this shot.

1:00:29But then one thing that keeps us held back is fear. And then the opposite side is a lack of courage or confidence. And so in your experience, because it's not just that you have been an exemplar of this and model this for so many people, but you also coach people and teach people how to advocate for themselves, how to make big changes in their career and take risks. How do you coach somebody to become more courageous to actually do the thing? Well, so one is the win or learn mindset. Let's de-center failure for a minute and think about some of the gains we're likely to get. I think one of them is

1:01:19changing how you view the fall if things were to go sideways or you mess up. And I teach people, think of yourself having a writing reflex like a cat, right? If they fall out a two-story window. Maybe they fell out on their back. What do they do midair? They right themselves and they end up landing on their feet. And it's the same way for each of us. Can you be ready for every possible twist and turn and setback that could come your way? No, Neither is the cat. But you can trust I have the problem solving chops to deal with things as they come. So guess what? I don't need to have the entire thing figured out, unlocked, perfectly understood.

1:02:18You know, I think that when we take big swings, we have to make peace with the fact that I'm never going to have perfect information on the problem I'm trying to solve. I'm always going to be working with like limited data, most likely, partial information, half the instructions. Sometimes we're even like putting a puzzle together and it's two different puzzles and there's missing pieces, right? And I think having some tolerance for that messy part is important, but also affirming yourself. Like that's to me what the writing reflex is. I may not have every answer. That's okay. I do trust that I can problem solve as best as I can in the moment.

1:03:10And guess what? That's how most of us have made it through life and have gotten this far. So you're already doing this. This is so powerful because as soon as you said it, it became obvious. But I heard this quote, the sign of a brilliant insight is that it seems obvious in hindsight. And that's what we have here because you, me, everybody listening to this show, we have one thing in common. And it's the fact that we have a 100 % survival rate of all of life's challenges. And I can't think of one thing that I've done where I got it perfectly right the first time. And then I let the fear of not being perfect or failing hold me back like it's killed me before.

1:03:56No. Right. That's true. Of course, correct. We do it all the time. Yeah. And you could almost argue it's more painful to talk yourself out completely. You know, that that idea that like regret is a really prickly companion. It's a painful thing to have regret. And I would argue more painful than a rejection that you had to put a bandaid on for a little while and some neosporin, but healed. And you moved on and you got over it. Regret is, I think, one fear I am willing to have is I don't want to have a lot of regrets. And one little tip I give people, a confidence tip is just, if you're wanting to do something, Hit submit on a job application, nominate yourself for a scholarship or some recognition.

1:05:00Recruit your body. You know, sometimes it sounds kind of hokey, but like tell your fingers to type the, you know, the words and hit submit. Enlist your body because your brain will catch up. And sometimes your brain is in like that protective, vigilant mode. Sometimes your body can do what you can't. And just a quick example of that, I was lucky. I live here in Philadelphia and I was invited to this like very cool women in leadership event. And I felt so honored. I was pretty young at the time and there was a lot of big wigs there I was excited to meet. And for whatever reason, I just like could not get into a group in this networking event.

1:05:52Like I remember going up to a duo and asking them about them striking up conversation. And they were like, can we get back to talking to each other now? and I was like oh and I realized in that moment Kwame like everything in my body was like shrink up Selena let's kind of stand against the wall and you know minimize our presence and and in that moment I had to kind of recruit my body and say I don't feel very much like I belong here right now, but I am not going to fall into that. And I kind of said to my body, body, take up space, plant your feet like you belong here, stand up straight like you belong here, go help yourself to a plate of food.

1:06:43And if you bump into some people have some conversation with them, but like, you're not going to shut down because some external stimulus data people might be minimizing you or just, I don't know, having a bad day and it doesn't feel so good. I think in those moments, we have the chance to either say, okay, you're right about me or no, thank you. You don't have the last word on this evening. I'm going to act like I do belong And like I earned my ticket as much as you did. Incredible. This is, it's so powerful. And Selena, I wish I heard this part of the episode when I was younger, because I distinctly remember a similar situation and I did not respond like you.

1:07:41I went to the bathroom like 35 times. Right? I don't believe you at all. I do not believe you. So it's a hard thing to overcome, especially as a young or like more inexperienced person. And by the way, just a quick like ally thing, just a kind person thing I think all of us can do is to go out of our way to like be the first to welcome the new person or, you know, hey, you're new at the company. would you like to come to lunch? Or you see somebody nervously walk up to your group at a networking event. Here, let me make some room for you. You know, it's such a small thing for us, but like, man, for the receiver, it can mean everything.

1:08:29So good prompt. If you haven't felt so good in those situations, you can be the opposite for someone. You can like warmly bring them into the fold. Powerful. This is powerful. Selena, I could talk to you about this forever. This is great. And I appreciate you coming on and sharing this different aspect of your thought leadership, because I see you talking about leadership and confidence, and it's always so great. And I also know there's a story behind it too. And so I'm glad we got to hear your story too. Well, thank you. You are brilliant. You are my favorite LinkedIn instructor and just one of my favorite creators.

1:09:12Like I'm always so happy when you come up on my page and my feed. And thank you for creating this forum. You're so good at it. Thank you. Thank you. And listen, before you go, remind the listeners about how they can work with you and shout out all of the books. Let's flex on them, Selena. Thank you. Yeah, so I can be found at my website, which is selenarezvani.com. And I also create content, video content five days a week on TikTok and Instagram and LinkedIn. And that is also under Selina Resvani. So please jump in, say hello, comment, and let me know what you think, or what workplace issues you want to hear a little bit more about.

1:09:58And you can find my books, Quick Leadership is the most recent one that we've been touching on today. There's also Quick Confidence for someone who needs that hit of quick confidence in their mindset, their body language. And those are available at Amazon anywhere books are sold. So reach out. Let me know what you think. I'm always excited to hear people's feedback. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Kwame.