Stop Giving Advice Nobody Asked For | Nidhi Tewari

0:00Kwame: The biggest mistake that leaders make is they shift gears too quick. They shift gears from being empathetic into problem solving. So you come to a leader, you share with them that you're struggling with caregiving for your elderly parent. They give you two minutes of empathy. I'm so sorry to hear that. I can only imagine how hard it is. And then all of a sudden now it's like, okay, but what is this going to mean in terms of meeting your deadlines? What does this mean in terms of taking time off? How are you going to be able to balance responsibilities? it invalidates all of the empathy and compassion that you just showed.

0:35Kwame: I don't actually give advice unless it's requested. So that I think is a foundational thing people need to keep in mind. If people want advice from you, they will literally ask for your thoughts. They'll say, what do you think about that? Or, huh, I'm thinking about doing this. How would you do it? They will ask you for the advice. Yet we assume that people desire our advice. So unless somebody directly asked me for it or unless I have provided them that option as part of the menu and they have chosen and selected it, I do not give advice.

1:26Nidhi Tewari: slash Kwame. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see you there. I was just reading this book. Working Well by my friend Nithi. So yes, Nithi is back on the podcast. I have a question for you. How many people do you know are both a clinician, a drummer in a hard rock heavy metal band, and a keynote speaker?

2:08Nidhi Tewari: There are very few people who match that, especially not people who are Indian American, but Nithi is the person. She is truly one of one. In this episode, we talk about so many cool things. It was a really great vibe session because, of course, we talked about her incredible book, Working Well, and we talked about attunement. We talked about psychology for sure, and we just vibed because she has such a cool story. She is the epitome of what it looks like when you give yourself permission to be who you are and who you aspire to be. After listening to this episode, first of all, you're going to have a great time.

2:45Nidhi Tewari: I think that's the most important part. And you're also going to recognize how to connect on a deeper level with other people, how to understand how instincts, how judgment and how your gut actually matters and can guide you effectively and how to recognize when it doesn't. And you'll recognize how you can take all of these learnings to make your life, your career and your relationships better. My friends, you are in for a treat. This is the story of Nidhi Tawari, and welcome to Big Swings Only.

3:18Kwame: I've always been the kind of person that is an outside-the-box thinker and doer. I'm not one to march to everybody else's drum, right? So I would say one of the most me stories was the decision that I made to join a heavy metal band and to become the drummer of a heavy metal band. Yeah, yeah. I did that for eight years. I played in a touring band. That's amazing.

3:47Nidhi Tewari: Thank you. Okay. It was crazy. That's so cool. Okay. What was, when you tell me about that journey, first tell me about the decision that you made to do that and then also the perspective of your friends and family as you've made that decision.

4:04Kwame: So the decision to become a drummer in a heavy metal band, I did not have any experience playing the drums whatsoever. My now husband, who I've been with for over 20 years, he and I were going through a breakup at the time, and I felt very lost. I had no idea who I was, what I wanted to pursue in life. And so I made the decision to just try something new. I remember going to a guitar center one day with one of my friends who was a guitarist, and I saw these drum kits there. and I just got behind the kit. I started kind of messing around. And before I knew it within the hour, I had started to come up with my own beats.

4:42Kwame: And I realized, oh my gosh, I'm a little bit of a natural at this. Like what if I actually trained with somebody and learned technically how to do this? So I ended up meeting up with one of my friends. He so graciously took me under his wing and spent about six to eight weeks teaching me the basics, paradiddles, how to be able to coordinate hands and feet, how to be able to do different drum rolls and fills. And before I knew it, my friends and I had started a heavy metal band and I was the one behind the kit playing the drums. And just over the years, as I taught myself more and more, we started to tour, we started to play with other big name bands and it became a way for me to be a bit of a trailblazer in the community because as you can imagine, there were very few female drummers and zero Indian female drummers.

5:35Kwame: And so I was kind of the first in the D.C. area. This is amazing.

5:40Nidhi Tewari: OK, and now tell me how your friends and family reacted to this.

5:45Kwame: Confused. They were very confused. They were like, wait a second, you're doing what now? And of course, you know, this is like heavy music, right? Like there's like there's like screaming in this music. And so I think a lot of my friends and family were confused because I had just graduated from college. I was supposed to be starting my career. And now here I am taking this detour into becoming a drummer. But I think with time, as they saw that this was something that I was passionate about and was kind of a natural at, they started to support me. And my friends and family came out to see me play live.

6:19Kwame: And many of them actually now it's kind of like the joke around the table that they used to be like the heavy metal drummer.

6:28Nidhi Tewari: That's amazing. And what's funny is the world always just sees you as a somebody who was a social worker, incredible author. And now you're lighting up stages speaking. But before you were lighting up stages drumming.

6:42Kwame: That's incredible. Yes. Yes. Interestingly enough, in the book, I talk about music as the way of really understanding this idea of attunement or being like in step with one another. Because when you really think about it, when you're playing in a band, you are constantly watching each other for cues. You're trying to see, OK, is this the right moment to slow down? Is this the moment to speed back up? You're really creating together and you have to be so in step and watch each other's movements and demeanor to notice when the next change of pace or the next tone change or key change is going to happen in the song.

7:21Nidhi Tewari: Yeah, this is this is fascinating because there is a rhythm to music and there's also a rhythm to life. And for me, studying psychology, the I love the fact that you you promoted this idea of attunement here, too. And I love the nexus between this concept and rhythm. So let's talk more about this because we're seeing how music, how there was a connection between music and what it is that you currently do. I'd be interested to explore different elements of your life where at the time you didn't think that it would have such a resonant impact on you going forward. But then looking back, you say, oh, you know what?

8:01Nidhi Tewari: I would be fundamentally different if this particular thing or this particular skill or experience didn't happen.

8:08Kwame: I would say the most formative moment for me that really led to me doing the work that I do today was in 2016. Because in 2016, I got my dream job. I just remember being so excited and thrilled to work for an organization that was aligned with my mission, my vision, and my values. And I envisioned myself working for this organization for many, many years to come. I was also the high performer, so I took it upon myself to plan the holiday gatherings, and I did the learning and development initiatives, and it just brought me so much joy. But then later on in 2016, my best friend of over a decade was diagnosed with stage four brain cancer.

8:50Kwame: Oh, my. Yeah. And it was a moment that created such a significant shift in my life because while I was still being the high performer and the one who's remembering people's birthdays and planning the Christmas party, I also was one of her caregivers. And I remember having to take her to her doctor's appointments or to pick up her medications because she lost the ability to drive. So while I'm balancing being a therapist and helping to be the glue of the team, I also was a caregiver. And all of those responsibilities, of course, weighed very heavily on me. So I thought to myself, I was like, well, this is kind of the thing that you share with your bosses and with your team.

9:31Kwame: And so I took it upon myself to let them know what was going on. Initially, they were very in tune with me. They were very in sync with me. And they understood what I needed in terms of support. But then about six months later, something shifted and we became out of step because all of a sudden the message had changed from where your work family and we're here for you to support you to maybe you should compartmentalize things and maybe you shouldn't really talk about your best friend here at work. And I just remember feeling that change, right? Kind of like we talked about in the music, when something changes, you adapt accordingly.

10:06Kwame: Well, I felt that shift in that betrayal and I adapted accordingly by pulling back. And I made the decision then to leave that role and to join another. And unfortunately, within the first month of taking that new role, my best friend Laura passed away from cancer. But the difference there was that these people were very much in tune with me because I had zero hours of PTO accrued and they donated three weeks to me to give me enough time to grieve. They asked me to share about Laura to keep her legacy alive. And they really they they were so in step with what I needed to be successful, both personally and professionally.

10:44Kwame: And it just was such a reparative experience. So that moment transformed everything for me because it showed me, one, what can happen when we're disconnected from one another, when we're not in tune with one another. But two, how powerful it is when we become in tune, when we're able to read each other and we're able to show up and support, that it can be healing and it can be reparative. And it's what allowed me to become a speaker and talk about what I talk about today.

11:12Nidhi Tewari: Wow, that is incredible. So thank you for telling that story. And thank you for being such a great friend as she was going through that difficult time and now keeping her legacy alive by sharing that story, because there are so many people who are listening that are going to gain strength and understanding from this message. And one of the things that I'm feeling compelled to talk about here is boundaries and choosing right for yourself versus grit and resilience. Now, because there will be a faction of people who say, well, you know, that's just life. You got to go through the tough, toxic workplaces and just be tougher than the circumstances.

11:54Nidhi Tewari: And then you also have the side where you would say, hey, you have to respect boundaries. If people are infringing upon those boundaries, you have to choose right for yourself. For those people who feel like they need to suffer through toxicity because that's what you should do or what work is, what would you say to them?

12:14Kwame: I think that's a moment for self-reflection in terms of what messaging we've received about what work should be. Because I don't think that having a healthy work environment is mutually exclusive from having a high-performing or a high-functioning workplace or one that brings you fulfillment. I think often workplaces actually traumatize us. And we come away thinking everybody should just have to deal with this. I made it through, so you should be able to grit your teeth and bear it as well. Right. But why can't we imagine something better for ourselves? Why do we feel the need to pass that trauma down onto the next generation of people that are coming into the workforce or the next person that takes on a role?

12:55Kwame: Right. So I think that there's some programming there around what it means to have to be strong in the workplace, that it shouldn't mean that strength equals suffering, that instead you can be strong and still honor your boundaries and still recognize what your limits are. I don't think that they're mutually exclusive.

13:15Nidhi Tewari: I agree 100%. And it's funny because it reminds me of the saying, hurts people hurt people. So if you have been hurt before, it makes you more likely to hurt other people in the same type of way, keeping the cycle going. And one of the sneaky ways this manifests itself is in jealousy. And so here's an example I'm going to tell on myself. So I remember when I was graduating law school, passing the bar. This bar is the biggest, scariest test you could ever imagine. Three days, 15 hours, and you only get two opportunities to take it in every year, February and July. And the way they let you know whether you pass is by posting a public PDF for the world to see of survivors.

13:59Nidhi Tewari: If your name is not on the list, you didn't make it sorry. So public humiliation in terms of the fact, hey, you won't be able to eat because you're not a lawyer. horrible. I remember my hands literally shaking almost cartoonishly as I was trying to type missing letters because my hands were shaking that much. And I remember thinking, I'm having to learn, I'm having to regurgitate this information on practice areas that I'll never utilize. Agency law, criminal law, constitutional law, et cetera. But I had to learn all of those things and then pass this test. I said, this is so silly. It should be shorter.

14:38Nidhi Tewari: And now I find out that they shortened the bar exam from three days to two. And my first reaction was, what?

14:50Nidhi Tewari: You need to suffer like I did. Make it three days again. You're not a real lawyer. And then I said, Oh, Kwame, go seek help. Go to a quiet place and journal. You're not giving any substance here. You're just jealous. OK, so I think it's an opportunity for self-reflection to say if you do have that knee jerk response of saying, well, you just got to suffer through something sometimes. Sometimes there are circumstances that you fundamentally, truly cannot change. OK, and we we can accept that. And we can also recognize that we might be in a place where we have more agency, autonomy and freedom to then give ourselves permission to accept better if we have the opportunity to.

15:32Kwame: Exactly. Well, and I think what you're also alluding to is kind of this idea of like paying your dues, right? Like everybody needs to pay their dues. And unless you pay your dues exactly the way that I did it, you're not as competent or capable or as good as I am. But I think that that is a limiting mindset because the idea that everyone should have to go through the exact same process that we can't innovate or change or alter it based off of now knowing better. Right. But to your point, by perhaps shortening the exam and making it more focused, perhaps that means that people are going to be less generalizably knowledgeable when it comes to law.

16:13Kwame: But maybe they have more specific knowledge that's beneficial to their clients and will make them stronger lawyers in their particular area of study. The same goes for anything that we do in life. It's like we shouldn't have to make other people go through the same painful experiences just because that's how it's always been done. And I think that that mentality of that's how we've always done it. So we're going to do it that way going forward. It really limits us and holds us back.

16:38Nidhi Tewari: Really does. Really does. You're spot on. I remember a little fun fact. It took me 12 years, 12 years to go a full year without having a nightmare about the bar exam.

16:50Kwame: Wow. Oh, my gosh. It was that was dramatic.

16:53Nidhi Tewari: Oh, it was dramatic. It was horrible. It was horrible. But I'm a lawyer.

16:56Kwame: You're a lawyer. You made it.

16:58Nidhi Tewari: I made it. So let's talk about another one of your big swings, because from being a rock star, you transition from being a rock star to being a clinician and now public speaker. These are very different careers. Very different. And, you know, I would be it would be interesting, though impossible, to see how many people in the history of humanity who have done those three things within the time frame. And you've done it. You're statistically very unique.

17:31Kwame: It might be party of one.

17:33Nidhi Tewari: Yes. So tell me about what inside of you allowed you to give yourself permission to be who you wanted to be, even if it was vastly different from who you were before. Have you ever walked out of a meeting feeling really good about it? And then 10 minutes later, someone's messaging you saying something like, wait, what did we actually decide in that meeting? That gap between what happened and what anyone remembers is exactly what Granola AI closes. Honestly, the first time I looked back at my notes afterwards, I didn't expect them to be that clean. It was more organized than anything I'd ever written myself, and I hadn't done any extra work to get there.

18:10Nidhi Tewari: Granola AI is an AI-powered notepad built for how people actually meet. You take the same rough notes that you always would, and in the background, Granola AI is quietly transcribing the conversation. As soon as the meeting wraps, it turns all of that into clear, structured notes automatically. And it also runs through your device's audio, so there's no bots joining your call and nothing extra to configure. It just fits nicely into the tools you already use. You can stay focused on the conversation and still walk away knowing exactly what decided and who's doing what next. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer.

18:46Nidhi Tewari: You can try it totally free for three months. Just head to granola.ai. slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. The first thing that I ever got from Quince was this pair of really nice formal pants, but they were stretchy and made for travel. So for me as a lawyer and businessman, as I travel and I do these keynotes all over the world, it's really nice to be able to know that I could wear something that looks good in the airport, that's comfortable on the airplane, and I could wear comfortably if I have to roll into a meeting or an event right after getting off the plane and it was only$60 and that's what turned me into a repeat customer because Quince focuses on wardrobe staples that are made with premium materials.

19:33Nidhi Tewari: So for example 100 % Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton and as it's gotten colder I've been leaning on their down jackets and wool outerwear too. They're solid warm layers that don't feel like they're cutting corners just because the price is lower. And that's really the whole model. Because everything at Quince runs about 50 to 80 % less than similar brands simply because they cut out the middlemen and work directly with ethical factories. But the thing is, it's not only clothing either. They carry that same quality into bedding, bath, kitchen essentials, and furniture, all designed with the same care.

20:07Nidhi Tewari: I use Quince and so should you. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show.

20:28Kwame: Well, I think that for me, one, I have ADHD. And so I'm going to be honest, I get bored. And so I think about what's the next iteration? How do I apply the skills that I've gained from this previous version of myself into the next thing that I'm doing? And I think that that's actually beneficial. And even people that don't have ADHD can benefit from that mindset because I'm not doing things that are so vastly different. Even when I look at being a drummer, I can see how that has now influenced who I am as a speaker, right? And even the work that I've done with writing this book, it very much played a role.

21:04Kwame: But it's just simply taking the skills that I that I gleaned from those past versions of myself and applying them to this new version of myself. And what I found that helps me along the way is I try my best, even as a person with a lot of anxiety, I try to trust myself. I trust myself to figure out what the next step is going to be, even if I have no idea how it's going to pan out. when I started as a professional speaker back in 2019, 2020, I had no idea that it was going to take off the way that it was going to take off. I didn't think that people really cared about what I had to say because I just saw myself as a therapist.

21:45Kwame: And I was like, oh, well, there's lots of therapists out there. What makes me different? But it was finding this intersection of work and clinical expertise and knowledge that really got me to this place of something special, like a special sauce that I can bring to companies or bring to conferences. So it's about finding your special sauce. It's about trusting in yourself that you don't have to know 10 steps ahead. You just have to know one ahead. And to discover what are those transferable skills that you have from the previous version of yourself that will help you in this next iteration of who you're becoming.

22:20Nidhi Tewari: Brilliant. Yeah, I think this is this is huge because I remember how terrified I was when people would say, what's your five year plan, 10 year plan? I'm like, oh, you guys are thinking that far in the past? I don't know. I don't know who I'm going to be. I don't know my interests. Those will shift. And they've shifted significantly for me, too. So recognizing that you just need to know what the next step is, that gives people a lot of confidence because I know people get like tripped up on that. They say, I know what to do next, but I don't even know what comes after that. a lot of high performers don't.

22:51Nidhi Tewari: They just do it and figure it out.

22:54Kwame: Exactly. Well, and I could never have predicted. Really, in 2019, I started talking and giving keynote speeches, but it was really 2020 when I joined Clubhouse. I don't know if anybody listening remembers this app, Clubhouse. I don't know if you remember. It was like all the rave in 2020, 2021 because we were in the midst of the pandemic. We couldn't go out and socialize. And so I joined Clubhouse. I got the invite. And that's really where I started to develop my platform and quickly gained hundreds of thousands of followers from my club Mental Health Matters. Well, when I first joined Clubhouse, I just joined because I was bored.

23:29Kwame: I was lonely. I was like, I'm trapped inside all day. I don't know how else to engage with people but to be online. And it became something. And that became the jumping off point where I met Amy Cuddy, who wrote the foreword for my book. I could have never predicted that. NPR was one of my first big speaking engagements that came through Clubhouse. It laid the foundation in a way that I could have never anticipated. So if I had just sat back and thought to myself, well, I need to wait until I have a one year, five year, 10 year plan, I would have never had this progression in my career. It was just simply taking a chance, getting on an app, talking and yapping to people and discovering that people cared about what I had to say that allowed me to get to this point.

24:19Nidhi Tewari: amazing amazing and i think one of the the most profound things about this that i can't get out of my head is i should have jumped on clubhouse now i'm like this is silly i'm not gonna do this

24:34Kwame: it was a game changer i cannot lie like it connected me to so many people

24:39Nidhi Tewari: that is great good for you good for you good for you

24:46Nidhi Tewari: Now people are going to say, I didn't find comedy with a jealous type, but it's coming out strong today. This is so cool because essentially, tell me if this resonates because it sounds like you didn't wait for anything to be perfect. You said, listen, I see the shot. I'm going to take the shot and I'm going to take this to the logical conclusion and then see what happens next.

25:07Kwame: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And since then, right, with new platforms that have come out, I just I kind of anticipate that it could be a boom or a bust. Right. Like some people got on TikTok in those early days of the pandemic and they now have millions of followers. I missed that opportunity. I didn't get on it in time to be able to hit that that big swing up in terms of followership. And so sometimes you have to just jump on things. And the reason, honestly, I didn't jump on TikTok is because I told myself this is a platform where people are dancing, right? I'm not a dancer. I don't know how to do this.

25:43Kwame: And it's just not meant for me. And look, I'm paying the price now. I have a decent platform there, but it could have been millions had I jumped on it. So sometimes you just have to go with your intuition. There was something in my intuition that told me there's something special about this app. And there's something different about it. and I want to explore it without any expectation. And what came out of it, honestly, it's very strange to say, but I can pinpoint Clubhouse as the moment that my career changed. It really transformed my life. It introduced me to the TED community, where I've now gotten to present workshops at TED Women and TED Next.

26:22Kwame: I mean, none of these things would have come had I not been on that app at the exact moment that I was on that app.

26:27Nidhi Tewari: Unbelievable. Kudos to you. And this is let's talk about intuition, friend, because it's funny, because when you think about the words intuition, instinct, gut, there is a nexus between all of these things. And tell me if this resonates with you, because for me, being trained in psychology, that was my undergrad degree. There was a high degree of skepticism about these things where those were associated also with bias. hey, you just have a gut reaction. That's not legitimate. You should use system two processing to quote thinking fast and slow. It's so much better. Now, I want you to kind of reconcile these differences because sometimes for people who are very academic, especially if they're well-schooled in psychology, there has been essentially a bias against bias, intuition, and judgment, like quick judgment like that versus deeper thinking.

27:19Nidhi Tewari: Tell me how you reconcile the two.

27:21Kwame: A lot of the research that has come out recently has shown this deep connection between our brain and our gut. So when we're talking about a gut instinct or gut intuition, we're talking about our brain and our body sensing something simultaneously, and it's showing up as a somatic sensation, a body sensation in our gut. So it's not just this random feeling that you're getting. It's actually informed by something that your brain is perceiving and is now coming through in your body, in your physiology. So when we're talking about our intuition, we're really talking about those physiological responses.

27:56Kwame: And there's something to be said for that. We're sensing beings. Not everything is a logical thought, right? There is something about perceptiveness. There's something to be said for really being in tune with what's happening within in order to discern what's safe, what's unsafe, in order to know that this is a good move versus not a great move in this moment. And so the people that poo-poo the gut intuition or the gut instinct are kind of missing some of the scientific discoveries in recent years that have shown that this is actually a real thing. And when our guts are off, right, then that is something that we need to be attending to and paying attention to.

28:35Kwame: Now, here's the caveat I'll give you. And this is as a therapist and somebody who works with people that have coped a lot with anxiety or have had trauma in their past. Sometimes their gut instinct can be thrown off a little bit. Right. So there's a bit of a disconnect there where anxiety will tell you that everything feels dangerous. And so that is a situation where you have to be a little bit more discerning with your gut because you have to be able to distinguish what is truly dangerous to me and what just simply feels uncomfortable. But that discomfort is just simply telling me I'm expanding my horizons in some way.

29:13Kwame: Right. That's where I find people needing to do a little bit of work and getting in better tune with themselves and and managing the anxiety so that they can tease out what's truly intuition versus anxiety talking.

29:24Nidhi Tewari: Oh, that's so good. Because I've never heard that juxtaposition there, intuition versus anxiety, because that definitely can throw off the calculation. And when I think about the term, the phrase, trust your gut, there are certain times where I can trust my gut to be right and certain times when I can trust my gut to be wrong. So here's what I mean. So there are times where I say, OK, if there is a shot that I'm thinking of taking and I see it, but I don't know if I'm good enough for it. If I run that idea past my friends and I say my gut is saying I shouldn't do this, but I talk to all of my friends and my teammates and they say, actually, no, you can definitely handle this.

30:01Nidhi Tewari: It was, oh, that was a little insecurity flaring up. I trust the friends, the cohort of friends that I've created more so than in my gut. So this is a time where I will introduce a little bit of skepticism to my gut because I know it can be thrown off because of these types of factors. But in other situations, it's really just high degrees of pattern recognition, patterns that have been encoded over time in meaningful ways that we cannot articulate. Oh, my gosh, this is going to be my first time telling this story. This is fantastic. It's one of the stories that starts off super cringe but lands the plane, I promise.

30:34Nidhi Tewari: so there's this and google this call me on this because it's going to sound stupid but there is a job that is called a chicken sexer a chicken sexer have you heard okay oh not at all so this is a person who whose job is to look at chicks like baby chickens and roosters and distinguish between whether or not the it's a male or a female which is actually a very very important distinction because the female chickens, they have much more financial value than a rooster because for obvious reasons, right? And so the ability to distinguish between the two sexes at an early stage is critical, but it can't be done by machinery.

31:24Nidhi Tewari: It has to be done by humans. But what's interesting is that the humans that do it cannot explain, they can't articulate what it is that they're seeing or sensing in order to make that distinction. So it's a job that's pure instinct, pure instinct. So it's really interesting to see at a very, I don't want to, I don't know if I should say high level, but meaningful level within that industry. It is a job that is pure instinct. So using psychological terminology, pure system one, zero system two. Fascinating.

31:57Kwame: It is fascinating. And I think that there's a lot of examples of that, right? Where we just kind of have to go based off of what the patterns are, what we've experienced in the past to inform what our future outcomes may or may not be. I think that's really interesting. I can also imagine that for a lot of, you know, even physicians, like, yes, you're looking at like hundreds of people in a week, but you notice certain patterns amongst different people. And so that tells you, hmm, this person should get a second opinion. Hmm, I should order a scan for this person. Huh, this just looks like a standard thing, right?

32:30Kwame: There's a bit of intuition. Of course, there is some concrete evidence there too. Like you're looking at a patch of skin, you see something off. Okay, great. But what determines who gets the MRI, who gets the CAT scan versus who just gets the thing removed, right? Who gets the blood test, right? There's got to be some sort of intuitiveness that comes into that.

32:51Nidhi Tewari: Right. Very, it's fascinating. a quick simone check in google sec google chicken sexer make sure i'm not having a qualm ai hallucination because if i am we need to aggressively edit them we'll find another example and do that one it's good we're good okay cool feel free to keep this in i think it's fun that is yeah it exists and i've seen the other side i have a friend that wanted to be a farmer And he bought a lot of chickens and then all of them were male. So he lost all his money because he couldn't recognize it. So he had to find a guy like this and say, hey, I was scammed. So can you help me now?

33:36Kwame: High stakes, right? That's a high stakes moment. Look at that vindication. That's right. Okay.

33:44Nidhi Tewari: So for you, Nedi, when you're thinking about you as a clinician and you now as a workplace expert, there are probably times where you can go in and you can diagnose or recognize something, but you can't give words to it. Maybe you're talking to somebody and you've seen enough people manifesting certain problems or challenges and they haven't explicitly said anything or even hinted to it, but you sensed maybe this is the thing. Does that resonate with you in your experience too?

34:13Kwame: Oh, it happens all the time. I actually, when I'm working with a client, I am constantly searching for patterns. I'm constantly listening for what's not being said just as much as what is actually being communicated to me. And part of being a good therapist is being attuned. So you have to be able to recognize change, subtle shifts in demeanor. You have to be able to notice different ways that their emotions or regulation changes. And often it's what's not being said that I pick up on that is really telling the true story. So I'll give you an example, right? Like often clients will come to me and they'll be talking about how, you know, they had all of these relationships growing up that had a similar pattern.

34:57Kwame: Like for example, you know, they grew up with parents that were not emotionally present for them. And so now in every relationship going forward, they tend to kind of seek out the comfort of somebody who is also not emotionally present for them. And they keep wondering and questioning, like, why am I doing this? I know it's not good for me. I know it's not somebody who is meant for me. This is not my person. Yet there's something that magnetizes me to them. And they can't quite put into words what's happening. And that's where I let them know it's because this feels familiar to your nervous system.

35:30Kwame: Like when you have grown up in certain kinds of environments, you then, through a process of both pattern recognition and seeking out what's familiar and safe will find the toxic person who's emotionally disconnected from you because that's what you grew up with. And when that is what felt safe to you growing up, or at least was something that you became accustomed to, anything that's outside of that is going to bring discomfort to you. So when they do eventually find that healthy relationship or healthy workplace or whatever it is, healthy something, they push it away because it feels dysregulating to their nervous system.

36:08Kwame: They're like, something feels off about this. It feels too vulnerable. I feel exposed. And I have to let them know in those moments, well, yeah, because let's look at the thread that we're pulling through all of these different experiences, right? It's interesting how deep the roots are that influence the growth of the tree that becomes our life.

36:28Nidhi Tewari: Wow. That's fascinating. And it shows, again, you didn't just come about this magically. There was a lot of research that you did and studying that you did before this, but then you have so many reps interacting with people who have these types of patterns. And then when we widen our perspective and think about how this applies to the audience, just it shows the value of having conversations with people who are different from you, who have a different background, because the more interactions you have with people, the more you can start to spot and see these types of patterns in folks. And I don't know if you can relate to this, but sometimes if you start to get really good at this, it feels almost like mind reading.

37:11Nidhi Tewari: So you take a shot in the dark. So might be off. You didn't say this, but is it ABC? They're like, oh my gosh, yes. And so most likely one, two, three. Yes. Oh my gosh, I don't even know. I'm like, I'm magical. Exactly.

37:25Kwame: I see through your thoughts.

37:28Nidhi Tewari: It's so interesting because what's cool is that it can break open a conversation because you do that with the right tone and the right level of curiosity. It gives them permission to then share more. And you can really deepen a relationship quickly if you can start to identify these patterns.

37:43Kwame: Absolutely. And it deepens their insight, too, right? Because we all have our blind spots. We all have our areas where we continue to recreate patterns. But if we can just have somebody just gently notice it, say it back to us, see us in it, then the next time that they're in a relationship or the next time that they're seeking out something that's healthy, they now know their tendencies and they can shift the way that they're showing up. So instead of pushing things away that feel different or feel uncomfortable, they start to gently and slowly open themselves up to that. And it leads to a much more fulfilling life, right?

38:18Kwame: So it's really where the discomfort lies. that's where our growth edges are. And we have to be willing to lean into those areas as opposed to escaping or avoiding them. Right.

38:31Nidhi Tewari: When you think about your career and the changes that you've made, what role does curiosity play in the directionality of your life?

38:42Kwame: A ton. I mean, I think I'm always asking questions. I'm always wondering, well, why isn't this working differently or better. Huh, you're facing this problem. I'm curious what you've already tried or what isn't working about it. There's always, there's a thirst within me to figure out a way to do it better so that people can function better and feel more fulfilled or come away feeling happier and healthier. And so curiosity is huge to me. But I think that, you know, it's about how you show up and are able to disarm people so that when you are curious, they don't take it as an interrogation. Because sometimes, right, when we're curious, we're asking 20 questions.

39:25Kwame: And if you haven't already developed the rapport or reduced the defensiveness of the other person, it can feel like you're dissecting them or trying to write, read too much into it. And so I try to be cognizant of that and instead spend a lot of time trying to understand their perspective before I start trying to figure out how to iterate and do it differently.

39:46Nidhi Tewari: Brilliant. Yeah, because it can feel invasive at times, especially when the person hasn't fully processed things themselves. And then you're trying to steer the ship in a different direction. It feels almost like they didn't give you permission yet. And what's interesting, I found is that there are certain kinds of people who do this very well, because it's necessary for them to be where they are. Entrepreneurs are very adept in their thinking. And so you hear entrepreneurs talk, somebody will say something and then somebody says, oh, that's cool. Did you try it this way? Oh, immediately the conversation veers off, but it's completely okay.

40:21Nidhi Tewari: It's just kind of the pattern of the relationship, but being willing to make those adjustments and give people that privacy if they're not ready to go deeper, that's important because it can be like a cross-examination. That's one of the things, especially when you spent a lot of time learning about communication. You can see the tells. You could read the body language. And sometimes it can feel like mind reading in a way that the person isn't comfortable sharing. So what I've started to do is, for instance, if I say, hey, how are you doing? And they're like, I'm okay. I was like, I hear the tone and everything.

40:55Nidhi Tewari: I say, okay, so friend Kwame is giving you an option. Would you like me to let that slide? Or do you need a friend to talk to about what's really going on?

41:03Kwame: I love that. Yeah.

41:05Nidhi Tewari: And so it allows them to feel seen, but also give them the option for privacy if they really aren't ready to share.

41:12Kwame: That's right. Exactly. And I think that by asking permission, which is exactly what you did there, people need that. They want to feel like they have agency and control in their interactions. And so if somebody does want to let it slide, great. You could also circle back with them at a later time like, hey, I just want to check back in with you. How are you doing now? And they may open up that second or third time that you check in down the line. But if they are willing to share, wonderful, then you can show up and be there and listen. The problem comes into play where we try to fix it or we try to offer platitudes or we then are connecting.

41:46Kwame: Oh, I know exactly how you feel. People tend to want to put distance between themselves and you because they don't feel validated. It feels very disconnected.

41:57Nidhi Tewari: Yes. One of the fun things that I've started doing in situations like that, because you have to understand, And sometimes somebody hits you with something, you weren't expecting it, you don't know what to say. I'm a communication expert. I don't know what to say either a lot of times too. And so what I'll say, what I've said that has actually kind of broken the ice in some cases is when somebody hits me with something that's deeper than I realize and it's a source of pain and things like that, I'll first empathize and say I could not imagine how difficult that is. I'm really sorry that you're going through that.

42:26Nidhi Tewari: there's nothing that I can do to make it feel better. But if you'd like, I can give you some meaningless platitudes about how everything's going to feel better eventually. Would you like that?

42:36Kwame: If that's what you want, I got you.

42:38Nidhi Tewari: And so that usually leads to a laugh because that's probably what everybody's been hitting with. Well, you know what? Things are going to get better. It's like, dude, you don't know that.

42:48Kwame: Exactly. Stop trying to make me feel better. I want to be like in the darkness right now let me be in the darkness yes sometimes we need a pity party you

42:57Nidhi Tewari: know let's do it um funny it's great this is why i was so excited to have you back on oh thank you okay so we have the book we need to make sure i i show that i have this first of all one of the many reasons i love this is because it reminds me of a tequila sunrise see that was an intentional

43:15Kwame: choice.

43:17Nidhi Tewari: I love this. This is great. Now, so one thing about folks who write books, the audience, if you're ever thinking about writing a book, you might be dragging your feet because you say, oh, I've got new ideas, new ideas. Guess what? You never want to stop having new ideas. Your book is never done because you're never done growing. And so every author, as soon as they write their book, they become more brilliant as time passes. I'm sure you have. So now if you could go back and add a single thing to this book working well, what would you add?

43:50Kwame: I would add illustrations. I wish I had illustrations in my book. I don't know why I didn't think about this. Because, yeah, I'm actually a very visual learner. and I think that there are so many great ideas in the book that could have been expanded upon or made more concrete with just a simple illustration and so it's actually a big regret of mine. I think about it all the time. I'm like, God, why didn't I think about that? But it just didn't cross my mind. It obviously didn't cross my editor's mind either. I don't know why, but that's a thing that I wish that I'd had in there. I think one other thing that I wish that I had done is there are a lot of really great frameworks, right?

44:37Kwame: And there's stories, of course, to help to make an example out of the framework, to help become an exemplar. I wish that something that I could have done would be to maybe incorporate even more of myself because I think I incorporate a good portion of myself in the beginning sections of the book. But towards the middle and towards the end, it's much more like this. It has a bit more of like the here's how other business leaders have done it or here's, you know, some pop culture references or here's kind of bits and pieces of what I've seen in the clients that I've worked with, but maybe less of myself.

45:13Kwame: And I think that it would have been cool to have a little bit more of a through line of here's me throughout this book, you know, so hindsight 2020. But those are a couple of things that just initially come off, come initially off the bat, come to mind.

45:26Nidhi Tewari: That's fascinating. That's fascinating. So with the next book it'll be a biography you'll illustrate yourself that hey if i was an artist unless we want stick figures that would be memorable though it would be memorable it wouldn't be memorable cool this is so with this we're going to ask you some quick questions really great for tiktok because you're a tiktok star we are speaking it into existence thank you thank you Okay. So we'll try to get these answers out in 60 to 90 seconds. Okay. Question numero uno. Spanish words of the day. Attunement versus emotional intelligence. What's the difference in one sentence?

46:12Kwame: Hmm. Oh, Lord. Okay. What sentence, eh? Okay. Let's see. emotional intelligence is a cognitive and emotional process thinking and feeling attunement is a neurobiological process it's your physiology syncing up to another person

46:33Nidhi Tewari: alongside the thinking and the feeling beautiful okay great so i'm a nerd i need more um so we're taking a step away so go deeper because we think about emotional intelligence as a skill that can be developed and honed? Since this is neurobiological, can it be developed in the same way?

46:49Kwame: Absolutely. Oh, yes. Yeah. So with emotional intelligence is kind of a foundational element of attunement. I think of attunement as an evolution of emotional intelligence because you're really looking at how you're showing up, how your demeanor, your tone of voice, your cadence, how your perception of the other person is not only influencing how you show up, but how they're receiving and perceiving you. And you're adapting moment to moment to meet their need accordingly, right? So that's how we deepen connection. So when I'm talking about physiologically, I'm talking about how they did research studies that found that when we're in connection with one another, our hormones sync up, our heart rates sync up, our neurons start firing similarly, we quite literally biologically become in tune with one another.

47:37Kwame: And when we're out of step with one another, then that's where we start to feel like, ooh, I don't know that I want to talk to this person or come back to them again. So subtle things that we can do, open body language, leaning in instead of leaning away, shifting down the tone of your voice. So to show empathy, compassion, not speaking super quickly because that evokes anxiety. Instead, if somebody's anxious, changing the cadence of the delivery. All of these different skills are core to becoming more attuned. And there's actually four key skills that I can get into with you that we discovered.

48:11Kwame: Okay, you want me to go into it? All right, great. There's four key skills that are the crux of attunement. Flexibility, reading cues, self-regulation, and collaboration. Flexibility, meaning that you're agile in the way that you're thinking and receiving what not only the other person is giving to you, but how you're showing up for the other person. You're able to adapt accordingly. Reading cues, meaning that you're able to gauge facial expressions, body language, how somebody is showing up in the interaction. Self-regulation, meaning that you notice when your own discomfort is starting to rise up and get in the way of how you're showing up in the interaction.

48:51Kwame: And then collaboration, meaning that you're an allied front. You determine goals that are in alignment with both people and you reach them accordingly. And there's also this bi-directional input there where not only are you learning or the other person is learning from you, you're also learning from them. And it forges a deeper relationship.

49:12Nidhi Tewari: That's brilliant. This is so, so good. Because the way I'm thinking about it is my framework, compassionate curiosity, acknowledge and validate emotions, get curious with compassion, joint problem solving. It sounds like a high degree of attunement is the foundation that maximizes compassionate curiosity.

49:31Kwame: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And if we can just notice when we're in step and out of step and adjust, it's not always lost. If you notice that somebody is feeling maybe disconnected or you're feeling disconnected from them, just these subtle changes can help to reestablish the connection so that there's safety and trust that is maintained in the relationship.

49:52Nidhi Tewari: What is the most common thing leaders say when someone is struggling that they should stop saying immediately.

50:00Kwame: The biggest mistake that leaders make is they say they shift gears too quick. They shift gears from being empathetic into problem solving. So you come to a leader, you share with them that you're struggling with caregiving for your elderly parent. They give you two minutes of empathy. I'm so sorry to hear that. I can only imagine how hard it is. And then all of a sudden now it's like, okay, but what is this going to mean in terms of meeting your deadlines? What does this mean in terms of taking time off? How are you going to be able to balance responsibilities? It invalidates all of the empathy and compassion that you just showed.

50:35Kwame: So pause on that. Don't dive right into logistics. Instead, stay with the other person. And there will be a time later on, perhaps in a different conversation, that you can start to problem solve. But that is not the moment to do it. Wow.

50:50Nidhi Tewari: So it's almost like the leader bot says, hmm, this unit of productivity needs what is called empathy. Let me give them 43 seconds of empathy and then refocus them to extract more value.

51:03Kwame: Yes, exactly. Cannot compute more emotions. It's like, no, no, no, no. Let's be a human being and let's connect heart to heart with this person. Yeah.

51:16Nidhi Tewari: Like, listen, listen, bro. If you don't care, just tell me.

51:20Kwame: At least just show me who you are so I don't come to you again with the thing, you know, like, gosh.

51:26Nidhi Tewari: That's so funny. That's great. That is great. Thanks. OK, so number three, what is the check in framework in 10 words or fewer?

51:35Kwame: Basically, the check in framework provides you with the language and the skills to connect more effectively. So it's all about being able to engage in curiosity, hold space, explore supports, congruently respond, know how to repair and interrupt your own discomfort.

51:55Nidhi Tewari: OK, if you have 30 seconds before a difficult conversation, what does tuning into yourself look like?

52:02Kwame: Tuning into yourself means a couple of things. One is noticing what's happening in your mind and body. Is your heart racing? Is your body tense? Are you noticing that your breathing is becoming more ragged? What are you thinking and feeling? And then being able to regulate that. So breathing, being able to ground yourself, making sure that you're physiologically calm, because calm body equals calm mind. You got to calm your body down in order to calm your thoughts and your emotions down.

52:34Nidhi Tewari: Okay. Another question now. what is the best way to calm your body down before a difficult conversation?

52:42Kwame: Yeah. So my favorite quick technique to do is breathing. You have to regulate your breathing first and foremost. So I use a technique called 4-7-8 breathing. You breathe in through your nose for four seconds, hold in the breath for seven seconds, and then exhale through your mouth for eight seconds. And if you do that just three to five times, research shows it'll lower your blood pressure, slow down your heart rate, provide more oxygen to your brain so you can think more clearly. It just calms your physiology down a little bit.

53:14Nidhi Tewari: Interesting. So quick note outside of the lightning round. So I was at an event where it was Jim Quick. He had his new release of his new book and there was a sleep researcher. Simone, can you see if you get his name? Dr. Bruce something, but a highly ranked sleep researcher. I was telling him about my insomnia and he's he introduced that same breathing framework. And it was the first time I heard it. This was just Saturday. This is interesting. So is this a new thing? Because box breathing was what was really, you know, catching on the 4444.

53:55Kwame: It's not necessarily newer. It's been around for a couple of years, but it is one of the most effective strategies. And I think that's why people are starting to realize it can be helpful for sleep because it calms the mind down. It helps to slow things down and just allow your brain to enter a state where it's more rested and restful. It's prepared for rest. But I also use this breathing technique before any speaking engagement. I remember just a few months ago, I was speaking in front of 3 ,500 people and I could feel my heart racing. And I just paused right before I got on stage. I did three to five of those breaths.

54:31Kwame: My heart rate, even on my Apple Watch, came down by like 15 to 20 beats. I mean, it was it was pretty significant. So it's very effective.

54:39Nidhi Tewari: Amazing. Very, very interesting. Quick question. When you were on stage, when you actually physically were on stage in front of 3500, how did that feel versus about 300 to 500?

54:52Kwame: You know, interesting. So the first this was like a speaking tour through Canada. And the first gig that I did of the speaking tour had about 800. I was more anxious going in front of those 800 than I was the 3 ,500. It was really strange to me because I fully expected to maybe have a mini panic attack before I got in front of the 3 ,500. It was huge. It was just like all you could see was just bodies going all the way to the back of the room. But there was something about 800 people sitting there and looking at me and really being like waiting for me to deliver my message that felt a bit more intimidating.

55:30Kwame: Yes. It also, to be fair, was the first of the four gigs. And so I think also it was the anticipation of, okay, this is it. Like, let's see how this is received. And by the time I'd hit like the 3 ,000 and 3 ,500 gigs of the next three in that tour, I had felt more prepared because I'd already delivered it and it had already been well-received by the first group. So there was also the experience factor there.

55:55Nidhi Tewari: That makes sense. Because the reason I was asking, because I had a big gig last month and it was weird because it was the first time I didn't feel any nerves and it was by far the biggest audience that I had. And I was thinking I was actually concerned about how little I was feeling. I felt the way the way I'm feeling right now chatting with you is how I was feeling going up on stage. Wow. And I was saying, am I broken? Did I usually feel something? Because it was 7 ,000 live and then up to 400 ,000 live online. Yeah. So it was huge. And so I talked to some of the other speakers who had had more experience at that level before.

56:35Nidhi Tewari: And they say it's this is something that a lot of speakers say because you get to a group where it's 300, 500, 200, 800. though you can you can quantify you can conceptualize those are individuals but once you get over 2 ,000 3 ,000 it's it's a blob it's like not even people anymore yes yeah it's so

56:56Kwame: true and also I feel like when you're on stage with that number of people it's almost like um I hope this doesn't come across weird but it's like it almost feels like a performance in a way in a different way than it does with with just a few hundred with a few hundred it's like much more intimate but when you're when you're 400 000 it's like okay now i'm like performing like i'm i am here to to almost act this out in a way you know it's it's very interesting it feels different

57:25Nidhi Tewari: yes okay glad glad i'm not the weird one no weird when two people are weird together it becomes cool it becomes cool and normal exactly now it's normal that's right that's right well and it's so

57:37Kwame: interesting that you shared that because before I went in front of the 3 ,500 people, I remember initially, like, yes, when I was backstage and I was really thinking about it, I felt the nerves. But then as they were announcing me and doing my intro to come on stage, it was like, whoosh, I felt so calm and at peace. And I was like, this is very strange. Like, I have never, it's very rare for me to feel that way because I'm an anxious person. But yeah, something shifted.

58:03Nidhi Tewari: There we go. See, everybody, if you have stage fright, You just need bigger odds.

58:07Kwame: That's right.

58:10Nidhi Tewari: Oh, man, this is good. Okay. Ooh, this is a good one. What is the cue that tells you that somebody wants presence, not advice?

58:21Kwame: Wow, that's a great one. The cue for me is, well, one, I actually, let me go back. I don't actually give advice unless it's requested. So that, I think, is a foundational thing people need to keep in mind. If people want advice from you, they will literally ask for your thoughts. They'll say, what do you think about that? Or, huh, I'm thinking about doing this. How would you do it? They will ask you for the advice. Yet we assume that people desire our advice. So unless somebody directly asked me for it or unless I have provided them that option as part of the menu and they have chosen and selected it, I do not give advice.

59:01Kwame: And people listening are probably like, well, you're a therapist. Isn't that your job to give advice? No, that's not my job. My job is not to give advice. My job is to listen and to help to reflect back what people are saying with insight. Right. And I do that in all of my relationships, even out of the sessions. Right. Even with my friends and family, I'm simply reflecting back what they're sharing and they come to their own conclusions as a result of my reflections. It's very rare that I'll sit there and say, this is what you should do, or here's what I really think about this. It's only when it's requested of me that I give that.

59:36Nidhi Tewari: Yes. Would it be fair to say that this is very Rogerian in thoughts, like Carl Rogers' approach to just holding up the mirror?

59:44Kwame: Yes, definitely. And there's a lot of power behind that because I think people ultimately have the answers within them. That is the whole core of therapy is that I am not an expert sitting across from you with all of the answers. The answers exist within you. It's just simply sometimes processing and talking it out loud and being able to have a space with someone who can reflect it back allows you to access those insights and action on them.

1:00:12Nidhi Tewari: Amazing. Amazing. Quick note for all of the listeners. If we can turn my name into a concept, that'd be great. Quamarian. let's push that forward um the other thing too i think selfishly with that strategy one of the things that you will avoid is the frustration of giving somebody advice and them not taking it um because usually if you give somebody advice and they don't take it it's because they didn't want the advice anyway you know it was unsolicited in the first place 100 and then we get annoyed

1:00:43Kwame: with them we're like oh well they just keep coming back to me with their problems and they're not listening to me. It's like, but that's not what they need. Whose comfort are we prioritizing when we give advice and try to fix it? When we share our own stories, when we offer platitudes, whose comfort are we really prioritizing? It is not the other person's. It's our own. It's our own discomfort with other people's distress that leads us to take those approaches. And it's not because we're, you know, that we're ill-intentioned. That's not what it is. is that we're well-intentioned, but we're uncomfortable.

1:01:18Kwame: And to assuage and reduce our own discomfort, that's what we do. We fix it. We try to offer platitudes. We connect our own stories and it backfires. Wow.

1:01:29Nidhi Tewari: And it really shows a lot of times a fundamental misunderstanding of the power of presence too. Because in the moment we might say, all right, this person is feeling bad. Let me distract them with something. Let me throw in a joke. But the joke, humorous can be utilized effectively if it doesn't pull away inappropriately from the initial focus of the interaction. And this gives us an opportunity to look within ourselves to recognize what we might be doing for the service of other people versus what we're doing for the service of ourselves because we are incapable of sitting in that discomfort.

1:02:05Kwame: You're spot on. And the minute that we can start to manage our own discomfort, which is about getting in tune with yourself, it is about regulating your own emotions, then we can provide a much better presence for people. And then they will come back to us time and again as a supportive figure in their lives versus pulling away and feeling like, well, I don't want to go to them because all they're going to do is tell me a million and one things that I could be doing differently. Right. We gain trust when we're able to manage our own emotions and show up in a grounded, present way for the other people in our lives.

1:02:42Nidhi Tewari: 100%. And now let's talk about the other side of this too, because I am with you with everything that you said. And then there is also the reality where somebody might, it becomes draining at a certain point. And so for the person out there who is constantly present for other people, who is the sounding board, who can receive that emotionality from others to the point where people seek them out for that kind of support. What do you do if you're that person and you start to get drained by the constant barrage of negativity?

1:03:20Kwame: As a therapist, I had to become really masterful at this because I'm holding space for trauma. I'm holding space for people's worst moments of their lives. And what I had to do is develop a routine for myself. So after I have a hard conversation, I do a couple of things. I physically change out of the clothes that I was wearing during these conversations to signal to my brain that that part of my day, that stress, I'm literally shedding it. So every day after my sessions or after a hard conversation with friends or family, I will change into my pajamas. I'll get really comfy. And then the second thing that I do is I plan some sort of decompression activity, ideally something with bilateral movement, which means like going for a walk or working out or going for a bike ride or doing something that engages both sides of my body because that allows me to think and process through.

1:04:14Kwame: But ultimately what it comes down to is you have to know what your limits are. And we will become resentful as empathetic, compassionate people if we ignore those limits. So when you start noticing that you're becoming frustrated or agitated or annoyed that this person keeps coming back to you for support or you're noticing that you're feeling drained, then sometimes it's okay for you to say, hey, I'd really love to be there for you. Is it okay if I reach back out to you later this week? I just have a really stressful next couple of days, but I wanna be there to support you when I have the time and energy to do so.

1:04:46Kwame: Or one of my favorite phrases to say is I wanna be really intentional and present with you. So is it okay if I reach back out to you by Friday so that we can continue the conversation then? People tend to appreciate it that you're keeping them in mind when you're setting the boundary. That it's because you want to show up for them in a way that is going to be present and not just doom scrolling or uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh through the conversation. And I've never really had somebody push back on that. Most people respect that. Wow.

1:05:16Nidhi Tewari: So good. And a lot of that I've never heard before. That's fascinating. Fascinating. Oh, this is great. I have butchered this lightning round because my curiosity is too much. Let's just do one more. And then let's bring Simone in. Ooh, what is one word for what happens in a relationship when real attunement occurs? I think there's like a vulnerability almost in a way, in a beautiful way.

1:05:48Kwame: There's a vulnerability that comes with feeling like the other person really sees and understands you and is truly with you in that moment. Like when I was going through all of that grief, when I've gone through any transition in my life, when people were attuned to me, I felt this like this deep appreciation and vulnerability with them and that I didn't feel like they took advantage of that or misused it. I felt like it was something that was held in a way that it was that the that my openness with them was like precious to them. And there was something really beautiful about being seen and understood in that way.

1:06:26Nidhi Tewari: That's brilliant. Oh, so cool. So cool. Simone, I know I'm like 20 minutes late, bro.

1:06:36Kwame: But this was a good conversation. We had to keep it rolling.

1:06:44Nidhi Tewari: sometimes i struggle to keep my mouth shut to give feedback so i had a friend and he was starting a podcast so he wanted to buy a very bad microphone and i was like no no don't buy it so i told him hey don't buy that microphone you're gonna waste your money he said no no it's fine so I said oh my god what should I do are you sure it's fine he said yes it's fine so he bought it then of course the microphone didn't work and I felt so bad with myself because I knew it was it wasn't gonna work so and and I I I allowed him then as he said that it's going to work I said if you say so then do it and I felt bad anyway so when I am in those situations where I feel bad if I give you feedback, but I feel bad as well if I don't give you feedback and then you make the mistake.

1:07:42Nidhi Tewari: What is my correct mindset? I don't know what to do.

1:07:45Kwame: I think it's so common. And the message that I would give you and anybody who struggles with this is that even if you provide feedback, you cannot control the outcome. So just because you tell somebody that this thing is bad for you or is not the thing that you want does not mean that they will still make a decision that's in alignment with the feedback that you gave. And you'll feel bad then that you gave the feedback and they still got the thing, right? So here's the thing. People have to be allowed to make their missteps. What your friend learned is that he probably needs to do more research.

1:08:24Kwame: He probably should have listened to you all along because this is your area of expertise. But he needed to make that mistake in order to learn the lesson from it. And yes, it might have been a costly mistake because he probably spent quite a bit of money on this microphone. But nonetheless, sometimes we have to stumble and fall in order to learn the lesson and get up and be more steady on our feet. So that would be my advice is that, you know, you can't control the outcome. You cannot bubble wrap people. and even when you do give feedback, they are ultimately, they have agency and control over their lives and they are going to make the decisions that they're going to make.

1:08:58Kwame: Now, what you can do is you can now ask him, hey, you know, let me know if you want some suggestions for my favorite microphones. I'm happy to provide them. And if he says yes, wonderful, then you can give him a list of microphones. But if he says to you, well, Simone, I think I'm going to do my own research and figure it out. Okay, great. He might need to make the mistake again and again in order to learn.

1:09:21Nidhi Tewari: yeah great advice great advice um one of the things i started doing when i'm giving my friends advice is i give the caveat saying hey listen i'm going to give a lot of advice and you don't need to take any of this i will not feel bad if you don't take any of that advice and frankly i say that for me it's like your liability disclaimer exactly i'm like listen okay you do what you want but I need to feel okay. I said my piece and I have accepted you'll do whatever you want, you know, and just, it's funny because I, again, going back to what I said earlier about how sometimes your gut instinct can be wrong.

1:10:01Nidhi Tewari: I sometimes replace my gut instinct with specific people. When it comes to sound, Simone has final say. I do what Simone tells me to do. I have a friend named Pete McIntyre. He has the how to be awesome at your job podcast. and whenever he has purchased something, I just buy the same thing because I know that he is so data-driven. He will do far more research than I am ever willing to do on the purchase of this$43 item. So whatever he has bought, I just buy instantly.

1:10:34Kwame: I know Nick too. I was on his podcast and he definitely knows his stuff. He was like, get this exact microphone. This will be the right one. I mean, he knows what he's doing.

1:10:43Nidhi Tewari: Right. So you know the automated emails that we get that says use this microphone?

1:10:47Kwame: I just stole it from him. Yeah, it's a great strategy because some people do not have the right equipment and it does affect the quality of the podcast, right? So might as well just put it out there. Here's a suggestion.

1:11:00Nidhi Tewari: That's so funny. This is great. Okay, so let's say, hypothetically, if somebody's been listening to this podcast and they say, man, if only Nithi put all of these ideas into a book, hypothetically, where could they get such a thing?

1:11:15Kwame: Ah, well, let me tell you, I've got something for you. There is a book that I happen to write. It's titled Working Well, How to Build a Happier, Healthier Workplace Through the Science of Attunement. It is available at any retailer, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. You can get it on Kindle. You can also get the audiobook version, which is me narrating, which I personally love because you get to hear my personality through the narration of the book. But yeah, all of these ideas and concepts are in the book. And I know that the title says working well, but it is not your typical business book. It is very much personal development.

1:11:55Kwame: It's very much about getting in tune with yourself so that you can then get in tune with others. And that is a skill set that not only benefits you at work, but benefits you in every single life domain. So highly recommend checking it out if that's something that you're interested in.

1:12:10Nidhi Tewari: yes and you've got our official stamp of approval highly recommended so incredible Nithi thank you again for coming back on the show we really appreciate it thank you for having me it

1:12:20Kwame: was such a joy