The Courage Framework: Competence, Confidence, Commitment, with Kevin Basik

0:00Big swings are necessary to become what we have the potential to become. What does it actually take to do something that terrifies you? Not the motivational type of courage. I'm talking about the real courage. I'm talking about the 3 a.m. cold sweat, heart racing kind of courage. That is something that today's guest knows intimately. I got a Ph.D. in organizational behavior and focused on what's called behavioral integrity, which is simply the perceived alignment between your espoused values, your words, your commitment, your faith, whatever you say you're about, and your actions. Dr. Kevin Basic spent 24 years as a behavioral scientist in the Air Force.

0:39He advised the Secretary of Defense on values-driven leadership and was trusted to help build the National Medal of Honor Leadership Institute from the ground up, one of the most pressure-filled assignments of his entire life. When you make a commitment, you sacrifice freedoms. You have lost the right to complain about the thing you just said you're in. You make a commitment in a marriage, you've lost the right now to pursue other people. And you'll actually get to hear him talk about his 3 a.m. moment. And what came out of that night became a framework that Medal of Honor recipients themselves would go on to validate.

1:13It was not healthy. I think that's a big understatement for me going through it. And it was just fear and uncertainty and self-doubt and all that. And one night, and I kept usually waking up at about 3.44 in the morning. And one night I woke up and I'm like, I got to at least figure something out here. So I came down to this office, sat in this chair in front of this computer, blanket around me. And I just started, I pull up PowerPoint slides and I just said, all right, what is the conversation I'm having with myself? Dr. Kevin Basic is here to show you that courage isn't the absence of fear. It's what you build from it.

1:50When you feel like everything is caving in and you don't know how to keep going, this episode will show you what courage really looks like and how to find it when you need it most. Let's dive in. This episode is brought to you by Granola and Quint. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just head to granola.ai.com. That's granola.ai.com to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash kwami. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

2:30Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. Playing it safe is easy. Playing it safe is comfortable. But here's the problem. Playing it safe and playing by rules that were never meant for you will never take you to the next level. If you've got what it takes to hit the ball out of the park, the only thing holding you back is whether you're brave enough to take a big swing. I'm Kwame Christian, and this is Big Swings Only. Every week, we're telling you the stories of people who fought their fear, chased the life they actually wanted, and became who they had to become to get it.

3:09This show is built for people who are meant for more, because if you really want to get to the next level, you've got to do something big. So the question isn't whether or not you've got what it takes. The question is whether or not you're going to swing. You were built for more, and this show was built for you. Subscribe now.

3:31So you're looking at a guy, youngest of six kids, right? So one girl, five boys. And my brothers, my oldest brother started the journey, but then brothers followed and followed. My oldest brother went to the Air Force Academy. We knew nothing about the military at that time. So he went off and did this thing. And my next older brother went to the Air Force Academy. And the next older brother went to a normal people school. But he ended up going Army ROTC. My next brother went to West Point. You know, so I'm getting dipped in a lot of the service academy, military thing. So I applied and I didn't get in.

4:11A little embarrassing, right? So I went to a college for a year, reapplied, didn't get in. Uh-oh. But they offered me prep school. So now, you know, facing a little moment where do I fall a couple years behind my contemporaries, you know, growing up for the opportunity to go to this place. Because once you go through this prep school, likely you're going to get in. And I've had sort of a crucible moment in the mirror where I'm like, hey, the window is only open so long. You only get one more swing at this and you go in or not. So deep breath, went to prep school and then the Air Force Academy.

4:57and all the challenges that come with a service academy. And then started a 24-year career in the Air Force as a behavioral scientist. So going all over and they were nice enough to invest in me and said, hey, we want you to come back and teach. So we'll send you to get your master's degree in industrial and organizational psychology. So that's basically what do we know about that funky human animal? and put them in a context. And my focus was small team leadership. I just love the dynamics of why it works and why it doesn't and what gets in the way. And went out and did some other things in the Air Force.

5:35Each one, another bit of a swing, swing for the fence in that never done anything like this before. And oh crap, this could go wrong, right? So taught back down at the Citadel in Charleston, South Carolina as an Air Force ROTC instructor. I got pulled up to headquarters to run ROTC's leadership development nationally as the chief of training. So that was intimidating, but it went well enough that they said, hey, we're going to invest in you again and now send you to get a PhD. The joke in my family is anytime I think the PhD is at all impressive, my mom will introduce me as, hey, this is my son, Kevin.

6:15He's a doctor, but not the kind that helps anybody. Right. So I got a PhD in organizational behavior and focused on what's called behavioral integrity. So it's a values driven leadership kind of concept, behavioral integrity, which is simply the perceived alignment between your espoused values, your words, your commitment, your faith, whatever you say you're about, and your actions. And when those are in alignment, when they are in integrity, good things happen. When they are out of integrity, buckle up. And it's so easy for all of us to get off the bubble and out of integrity with who we're trying to be or our standard of excellence or our faith or whatever that is.

7:04So those were the goggles I put on. And I just, I love that moment to moment test of battling to be who you're trying to be. And, you know, fear shows up and insecurities show up and all that, all the obstacles that we have to battle through. So, so 24 years, my, I finished up at the Pentagon. I was asked to come up based on my previous work to be an advisor to the secretary of defense on values driven leadership on the professional identity of the people serving the nation. And as I transitioned out and retired, I drink this Kool-Aid. I serve this Kool-Aid. I mix this Kool-Aid. Man, I'm going to keep exploring this.

7:50And I had enough people call me say, hey, we kind of dig how you explore this with people. We don't care if you're in uniform or out of uniform. So we'd like to keep a partnership going. So I started my own company and was off and running. Values-driven leadership, behavioral integrity, be the leader you mean to be. And about three years ago, I was asked to help stand up the National Medal of Honor Leadership Institute. This new amazing facility, this world-class museum was being built in Arlington, Texas by Dallas Cowboy Stadium to honor the Medal of Honor and all of those who have earned it.

8:34And they said, feels like we should have a leadership component to all this so that people get hear the stories, connect with the recipients, but aren't just left with, wow, they're awesome, which they are. But there's got to be a bridge built to go. So what do I do with that? And the beauty of the Medal of Honor thing is these ordinary people did something extraordinary in a moment. and demonstrated what is possible in spite of all of the reasons not to do it. And we can basically say their stories happen to be on a battlefield in a military context, but man, there's hacks and lessons that can translate to the battlefield of your life, whether you're raising teenage kids or you're battling through some medical stuff or it's just personal, professional struggles.

9:29We're all in battles all our life. to lean into the Stoics. The goal is to just struggle well. And in there, I love the title of the podcast, is that big swings are necessary to become what we have the potential to become. So all that to say, now I support the Medal of Honor, but I also do my own thing. And I go out and support corporate, military, nonprofit organizations to connect with who they are as organizations and as individuals. Incredible. And Kevin, like I said, the first time we chatted, I will say it every time. Thank you for your service. It's so necessary. And the role that you had was critical in making sure that everybody was mentally prepared to serve.

10:20And when you think about this, because we're going to come back to your big swing. There's so many to explore. But I really want to hammer this home because we're in a stage when it comes to mental health, optimal mental performance, where we see some people who might go too far and they fancy themselves armchair therapists and everything is diagnosable and problematic. And then we have other people who might see that behavior and say, you know what, all of this is a farce. You just need to get the job done. And the truth lies somewhere between those two extremes. So especially when you think about it from the aspect of military service, why is it so important to have you and people like you teaching behavioral science to the people who serve at the highest level?

11:14I tell you, I love that. And service, first of all, I mean, we can all serve in different capacities and leadership. There's formal leadership and man, there's informal leadership is as long as you're influencing you can and you can serve wherever you stand. But why is it important in the in the military these days? First of all, the mission matters so much. I mean, there's a lot at stake. And these are the folks that are asked to do things on behalf of the nation. And we need them to have their heads and hearts screwed on straight. So when I go in and explore this, whether it's with, you know, cadets at the military academies or ROTC or up at the Pentagon or beyond, man, the human thing never stops being important.

11:57You can't get the mission done without going through the human beings. And there are certain things that just keep showing up as important. Matter of fact, Kwame, I do a session, a half-day session with the Joint Special Operations. So that joint just means Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, even international allies, but the special operations folks. So these are the SEALs and the Green Berets and the, you know, the TACPs and all, tip of the spear warriors, all business, getting the stuff done. and in the special operations forces community they have identified what they call the soft special operations forces the soft truths and there's five of them and they all know what they are they are they're the truth they are the undeniable principles when it comes to us doing the mission and the number one soft truth is humans are more important than hardware and they got all the hardware man um you know and some of the other soft truths are hey you can't mass produce us we're a specialized unit you can't wait until the crisis is at hand to build us because there's a pipeline so those are undeniable truths but the first one is humans are more important than hardware so you better be familiar with leading and influencing and connecting with what humans are hungry for.

13:26And part of that has to do with the tribe that you're building, you know, the culture and the identity I've got associated with that. You know, it's, there's a great phrase you may have heard in sports, but it goes back to, it's an African philosophy and phrase, Ubuntu, which translates to because we are, I am. My identity is connected with who I run with and, and it shapes that. So as leaders, we better understand how to shape that environment and we better understand how to connect with people and to influence them in a healthy way towards, you know, a desired outcome. Brilliant. And to just, to just go, yep, I hope it works out or I'll figure it out.

14:11Or, you know, I turned out okay. So I'll just keep doing what was done to me. that's kind of a dangerous um if not uh uh immature approach to leading and developing people i agree 100 and i'm glad we we laid this out because i think a lot of times we can the extremes can become very alluring sometimes and especially i mean let's let's call it like We see it as sometimes we can become too hyper masculine to the point where we incorporate a lot of toxic elements that don't drive us toward our mission and purpose. And we're too focused on being tough for toughness sake, not for the sake of the mission or the people we see.

14:59And to that point, Kwame, the special operation forces, I mean, these could potentially be knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing mediators that just bang into things and just break things. And they are expected to do kinetic damage and things like that. But for the most part, they are expected to show restraint, to show character, to create environments and cultures of trust in their units. And when I explore this stuff with these just big buff, intimidating people, it's amazing how often they will go, you know what, we just need to listen more as leaders. or what matters to me is just when you show a little vulnerability and admit that you're struggling or you're not perfect so it's it's all of that soft human stuff that helps keep them from just being hyper masculine and going into the toxic arena the sweet spot man is stay human while you're kicking ass yes yes and and you have to remember outside when you get past the prickly, hard exterior, the soft stuff is inside of us too.

16:13Our brain is not very hard. We are squishy. So, hey, listen, there are soft elements and that's not okay. It is just a biological reality of existing on this. Yeah. Don't slight it. Don't slight it. And so now I think this will be a great opportunity here to talk about you again, but from a more vulnerable perspective. Because, Kevin, just like the intimidating, scary guys that you've worked with, people look at you and all of your accomplishments, and you are quite intimidating and impressive as well. And they can't see the smile and the warmth like I can if they're on audio. And I want you to take us through different scary moments in your life.

16:57So I want you to take us to during training when you were in the Air Force and you had to jump out of a plane. That sounds very scary. But then I also want you to talk about what it takes to be the person who has been trusted with stewarding the creation of this institute for Medal of Honor recipients. Because both of those were scary. And I think from the outside looking in, they might assume one is scarier than the other. But yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, that's a great question. So all along, just like many of the listeners, you know, you have certain decision points in your life. And as fear has shown up, hey, you're in the courage game.

17:32And there's the fear ups, fear of embarrassing yourself, fear of failure, fear of not being good enough, fear of not being in the pack that you want to be associated with. So early on going to the Air Force Academy, there's certain moments where you are the actor alone on the stage, or at least it feels that way. man so many people and this this definitely connects to a lot of executives and high performers even when they weren't alone they felt so alone right going through it um but you know when you when you cross a line back in the day at the air force academy you get dropped off on a bus and then you literally had to cross a line that started your in processing and all the big mean upperclassmen are just waiting like sharks to jump all over you so you've got to take the deep breath and go, all right, how bad do I want this?

18:24Because I know what's coming. I got to buckle up and it's about to get real. So there's things you lean on in those moments to get you to take that step across literally the yellow line or to raise your hand and admit that you're struggling when academics are getting away from you or when you're seeing stuff around you and you're like, I'm just not comfortable with this. man, it's, it's so easy to stay hidden and stay small. So, you know, all of us have battled things like that, but I'll tell you one of the biggest ones for me. So, you know, the PhD thing, of course, it's the workload and all that that you struggle with and lots of doubt that go on through that.

19:09I will tell you this, this may be one of the things if people take notes, this would be one of the big life hacks. So I'm in my PhD program at Florida state and I'm in like the second week and it is, man, it's a book a day and it is just, you're printing out back in the day, you're printing out just piles of peer reviewed journal articles that you have to read and consume and understand for the next day. And, um, and it's easy quickly to feel over overwhelmed. So I was in the doctoral student lab where we do all the printing and it was like two weeks into the program. And one of the upper class PhD students, he looks across and he sees me and he goes, hey, I know that look.

19:53I know that look on your face. You feel like you're in over your head, don't you? You feel like you're the one who shouldn't have gotten it, right? And I'm like, how do you get out of my head, right? Psychology, get out of my head. And he goes, let me just tell you something. He says, odds are statistically speaking. someone even dumber than you has pulled this off and I'm like yeah wait what like I don't think that was a compliment but but he's right you know so often and you know you've got two kids when you start as a parent you start questioning how are we doing this and I don't know what to do with these kids statistically speaking someone dumber than me if there is such a person someone even dumber than me has raised a child to survive at least the first week.

20:42So that was a helpful little battle cry that got me through some of the challenging things in PhD. And I've leaned on that one throughout my life. But there I was, this was about three years ago. So I had been honored and asked and invited to help stand up this leadership institute associated with this museum, the National Medal of Honor Museum. And the people that I'm running with are just insanely successful and impressive. And you've got, good grief, the chairman of the board is Charlotte Jones. So the executive vice president of the Dallas Cowboys. You've got, the CEO of this thing is a 94, he's a 93 classmate from the Naval Academy.

21:26I went to the Air Force Academy, graduated in 93. He went to the Naval Academy, then became a Navy SEAL for seven years, then becomes an astronaut and then International Space Station and shuttle missions and all this stuff. So if you've ever felt good about yourself, don't hang around AstroSeal, right? So I'm swimming with these cats and they've handed me what amounts to a blank sheet of paper to say, we know there should be a leadership element to this. We're not sure what that should be. Based on your background, we think you're the guy that can help us at least stand this up. So I'm trying.

22:00And part of that is what's the structure? What's the language and the framework you're going to use? Start building content and curriculum. We don't need a way for the building to be built for, to start executing programs. So, Hey, do that stuff. So I'm off and running and everybody in my life is, Oh my gosh, what an honor. It's perfect fit for you. And this is great. And dude, it felt like i'm i'm trying to create it and it's just like i don't this is not good enough or it should be better or how are they doing so much better and and it was just imposter syndrome self-doubt dude i was having i mean panic attacks in the middle of the night because i'm waking up just saying why am i not doing this or why is it taking so long or this this isn't worthy of what these people deserve and I will embarrass the, all the people who had faith in me.

22:56It was not healthy. I think that's a big understatement for me going through that. And it was just fear and uncertainty and, and self-doubt and all that. And one night I, and I kept usually waking up at about three 44 in the morning that just bink flop sweat, just tossing and turning. And one night I woke up and I'm like, I got at least figured something out here. So I came down to this office, sat in this chair in front of this computer, blanket around me. And I just started, I pull up PowerPoint slides and I just said, all right, what is the conversation I'm having with myself? Let me give voice to the debate, the screams, all that insecurity, the chatter.

23:45So I'm writing down things like, I'm not going to, it's not going to be good enough. I'm going to lose control of my life and my calendar as my daughters are in an important season of life. And I'm going to miss out on that while I'm doing this. The voices were saying, you've convinced everybody that you're this expert and you're demonstrating you're not. That's the real stuff. So I start typing this down and then I said, okay, behind every one of these comments, all these inner critics, there's kind of a fear of that's represented there. It's the fear of letting people down. It's the fear of not being good enough.

24:30It's the fear of failure. It's the fear of needing to ask for help. It's just, I start listing this and just being totally vulnerable and honest with myself, just trying to diagnose what the heck is playing out here. And something interesting happened, Kwame. As I'm writing that out, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let me go back and highlight some of these because that's not accurate. You've got to do this by yourself. It's got to be perfect the first time out. you know um you uh um it's got to be different than everything else out there well okay true but not completely true so there were certain things that were worthy of being challenged so i got it out there and it gave me a little bit of comfort in going okay kevin you know better than that and and when that voice shows up you can now call it out and go ahead not so fast here Come on.

25:24You don't have to do it alone. You don't have to make it up by yourself. You've never done anything like this before. Yeah, but I kind of, I've done stuff like this before. So not so fast there. And then I leaned back on, and I know we're going to get to this, but I leaned back on three buckets that had emerged as I was exploring the topic of courage earlier in my, in my work. And I, I identified that what helps people do hard things in spite of fear. I've jumped out of an airplane and that was scary. That was just visceral fear, physical fear. What helped? Well, we did a lot of prep beforehand, you know, to the point where you really just, you slap thousand, two thousand, pull thousand.

26:10I mean, it was just this deep memorization that took some of the power out of the fear. I noticed that the third time I jumped out of the airplane, it was a different experience than the first time. I had a different relationship with fear because I know what's coming. Fear was a little bit smaller. The height was the same. We jumped from the same height, but just those few reps seemed to matter. One of the buckets that I knew was important was competence seems to help with fear. If I just have a step, if I've got a plan. If I, if somebody tells me, Hey, if X, then Y, okay. That gives me a little bit of control over fear.

26:55The second thing. So I, I went into, as I'm sitting in my office, I opened up another slide. I said, all right, what can I do competence wise to get better at this? Can I, who can teach me something that can help me add structure? What's a first step that I can take? What are the great ones doing right now that can maybe give me a little bit of, okay, that I can do. It's a step I can take. So competence became a first bucket that I was able to challenge myself with. The second bucket has to do with confidence. There's something to be said for just believing you can do it. Maybe listening to the people who are trying to remind you, dude, you have done stuff like this before.

27:39Stop ignoring that or pointing to other people going, hey, if they can do it. You can do it. Dumber people like you, then you have done stuff like this. So there's something about believing, maybe even borrowing confidence. And I know, you know, you, you talk a lot about confidence in your work too. Just quick wins. I don't have to always hit the long ball. Can I hit some singles and get a little bit of momentum and feel like, okay, I got this. I've

28:13It's helpful to just break the giant thing down into small steps. You go through boot camp and basic training. It can be overwhelming. God, I've got to go through this for six weeks. No, you don't, dude. You just got to make it to the next meal and then the next meal and the next meal or the next step, whatever you got to do. The next chemo treatment. If you break the big thing down into smaller steps, confidence can start or yeah, confidence can show up. And then the last bucket that was pretty easy for me to reconnect with in that late night session in front of my computer was the power of commitment.

28:50It's just reminding yourself that you love this stuff, reminding yourself why it's worth it. That's the commitment question. The commitment question is just why is this worth it? And you better have an answer to that because the grind and the suck is going to show up. but man if you've got your why if you know what identity you are trying to bring to life if you some people are like i know what i do not want and that's part of my commitment i'm going to prove them wrong right and that is fuel for me when it gets hard even though it's scary i'm going to keep on taking steps so i had those three buckets and that's what in that late night session helped me kind of face down the fears and go, okay, I can do things competence wise to help give me a little bit of strength and structure.

29:38I can tap into and strengthen confidence with things and maybe borrowed confidence from those around me. And then I can just reconnect with the commitment as the fuel to help me take this thing on, even in the face of fear. And that was a helpful process for me that just gave me, it calmed the waters a little bit. And then working with Medal of Honor recipients, it just validated it. Because when you talk to a Medal of Honor recipient who did amazing things that we call courageous, in spite of all the reasons not to, they will answer the big question, which is, how did you do that? They will answer it with one of three things they will say i was just doing what i was trained to do competence that's that's the first thing you'll often hear which is so humble on their part hey i was just doing what i was trained to do second nature the second thing you will hear from medal of honor recipients was i just believed i could pull it off usually because i wasn't alone you know i knew they had my back so i was willing to no matter how bad it went i knew they were coming to get me so that confidence helped them at least give it a shot and then the last thing of course the biggest lever the biggest answer to the question how did you do that is i cared so much about them i were not there was nothing that would have kept me from at least trying it so again the three buckets the confidence or the the courage catalysts kind of travel from battlefields uh in the military context to battlefields at Kevin's desk at 344 to battlefields in having to fire somebody you know think about that's a scary moment I've got to hold somebody accountable and cut them loose and have that hard conversation man it's helpful if somebody says here's what you need to say just try this or let's practice this you know and and it'll feel a little bit more competent in having this conversation confidence what what if it goes right you know let's talk about that instead of what if it goes wrong um let's talk about you know what what things like this you've had hard conversations in the past this is just a different version let's talk about if it does initially go bad can you recover i think you can all right and here's how and then And of course, the commitment thing is, why is this the right thing to do?

32:12Don't ignore the fact that other people are watching you tolerate that low performer. And it's affecting the culture. It's affecting trust. It's affecting your legacy as a leader. Does that bother you? Because maybe that's enough to get you to finally have the hard conversation. The first thing that I ever got from Quince was this pair of really nice formal pants, but they were stretchy and made for travel. So for me as a lawyer and businessman, as I travel and I do these keynotes all over the world, it's really nice to be able to know that I could wear something that looks good in the airport, that's comfortable on the airplane, and I could wear comfortably if I have to roll into a meeting or an event right after getting off the plane.

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33:30They carry that same quality into bedding, bath, kitchen essentials, and furniture, all designed with the same care. I use Quince, and so should you. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. Have you ever walked out of a meeting feeling really good about it, and then 10 minutes later, someone's messaging you saying something like, wait, what did we actually decide in that meeting?

34:07That gap between what happened and what anyone remembers is exactly what Granola AI closes. Honestly, the first time I looked back at my notes afterwards, I didn't expect them to be that clean. It was more organized than anything I'd ever written myself, and I hadn't done any extra work to get there. Granola AI is an AI-powered notepad built for how people actually meet. You take the same rough notes that you always would, and in the background, Gornola AI is quietly transcribing the conversation. As soon as the meeting wraps, it turns all of that into clear, structured notes automatically. And it also runs through your device's audio, so there's no bots joining your call and nothing extra to configure.

34:45It just fits nicely into the tools you already use. You can stay focused on the conversation and still walk away knowing exactly what decided and who's doing what next. If meetings are eating up your day, granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just head to granola.ai.com. That's granola.ai.com to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai.com. Kwame. Oh, Kevin, this is powerful. This is powerful. And I think for everybody listening, especially folks who struggle with imposter syndrome, you told us something that we should hold dear to our hearts. And I know it's something I personally will go back to time and time again.

35:28Whenever I'm feeling imposter syndrome, I will now say to myself, at least people are not comparing me to AstroSeal. Yeah, right. At least I'm not that guy, yeah. But this was great. And, you know, when I was first, when Whitney and I were having our first son, Kai, I was very, I'm a bit of a perfectionist having to work on that, and I was nervous about it. And just like you, one of my counselors said, he's like, lesser men have done it. And that really, I latched on. I don't need to be perfect. I need to be minimally competent. That's the goal. And the thing is, if you're called to do something, people see something in you that you don't often see.

36:16That borrowed confidence is so important. And if that's ever anything that people struggle with, just call some friends and say, hey, listen, do you think I'm good at this? If so, why? And let them hype you up. And that helps you so much. And also we've heard so many different angles on why it's important to have such a strong tribe, why it's important to have people around you. You are the average of the people around you, et cetera, et cetera. But when you think about that element of confidence, not just being borrowed, but also knowing that you have some elite people who have your back. oh my goodness because i know with certain things there there are things that my friends will yes they love me and everything so let's let's stipulate to that but they will not tolerate a certain level of performance from their friend group and those are the kinds of friends you need around they're like listen we're not going to let kevin slip off when it comes to something this substantial right you are you are preaching to me man i love i love that is you you know your your your vibe determines your tribe and your tribe determines your vibe there's a little bit of back and forth there and the we had to define the word honor obviously as we're standing this thing up we got to operationally define what do we say what do we mean when we say this word and although it's not perfect i'm sure but our definition trick i think travels into any corporate world where you're trying to build something in your family, right?

37:51That's the tribe and you as a leader in that are trying to shape something that matters. So here's the definition we had for honor. Honor is living the shared moral and ethical code of excellence. Okay. Living the shared moral and ethical. Of course, we had to put moral and ethical in there so that people don't say, oh, well, you know, the mafia had honor and okay, we're going to assume, you know, pointed in the right direction. So let's strip that part out just with that implicit assumption. Honor is living the shared code of excellence. There needs to be a code. There needs to be a standard by which we say we will not tolerate, to your point, we'll not tolerate deviation from this.

38:34This is who we are. And if you want to be a part of this, this is it and if we haven't codified that and clarified it we don't know what the standard is so it's easy to drift so there needs to be a standard of excellence shared this is a community thing that's the navy seal creed they say if you want to be a part of this if you want to wear this trident it's different than other communities we have a shared standard of excellence and they have a formal written creed. So it's helpful to say, this is what defines those who want to be a member. And if you dishonor this, you're out. But it needs to be lived.

39:18The first word is the most important. It's one thing to have the code. It's another thing to live the code. And that is the behavioral integrity thing is you have to live the shared code of excellence. And brother, it is a moment-by-moment test to prove if you're serious or not, or if you deserve to be a member of this community or not. So I love the fact that in our tribes, when it comes to us believing each other, maybe that's part of our creed. What part of our family creed that I've borrowed from a friend going through cancer is a t-shirt that said, in this family, no one fights alone. Just love that as a declared commitment to each other.

40:02I don't know what you're going through, but man, you're not going through. I will rush to your side, even when it's inconvenient to me, because that's who we are. That's our code of excellence we share, but it's in the moments when it is inconvenient, when it is a little troubling. That's the test for whether I'm going to live it or not. Every time we live it, It's another, we have put another coin in the account for who we are trying to be. So I love the fact that, yeah, you say that tribe can be the source that we pull our confidence from over and over again. 100%. And let's focus on this word, living it.

40:44This is crucial. And so I'm glad that we started here, especially with the definition of honor. I think that's powerful because it brings it to life. and for the person who's listening they are contemplating making a big change taking a big risk doing something to prove the lives of themselves or others through action and what i recognize is that a lot of um people who aspire to achieve on a high level who want to live life on their own terms a lot of times they want the outcome but they don't focus enough on becoming the kind of person who is worthy of the outcome. And that's where the living it comes from.

41:24And when I think about you, one of the things I love about you as a thought leader is that it's not just you sharing other people's research or your own research, you are living it as well. Because when we think about throughout the through line through your life, and especially with this most recent endeavor. We're talking about the fact that you studied courage, and then you went back to that literature and then lived courageously through what you learned. Yeah. And that's the blessing of, first of all, exploring anything that has to do with values-driven leadership is you are on the same mountain as everyone else.

42:07Yeah. You might be a little bit of a Sherpa where you go, hey, I've got some tools that seem to help people. Let me offer you those. Let me tell you where the risky footprints are going to be and the handholds need to be. That's the help of the Sherpa. But the Sherpa is on the mountain with the climbers. And the mountain is just as dangerous for the Sherpa. So I'm on the same track as everybody else. And when I do my workshops, this is where I start. I said, here's where my heart's at. I'm just inviting you onto the journey. I'm on myself. I'm an imperfect, perfect, struggling human being that's in a marriage.

42:44That's one context. I've been married for 31 years in a row, in a row. All right. So, and God love her. My wife has to deal with this knucklehead, but there are moments when I crush it as a husband. And man, there are moments when I am just a knucklehead. All right. Now comes the recovery moment. What does a person, what does the person I'm trying to be do in moments where they just screwed up, you know, as a parent, I'm on that journey too. Now, again, in the research and in thinking deeply and exploring this so much, certain hacks and insights have bubbled up that I'm like, this helped me. It's helping other people, other high performers.

43:28You might want to pay attention to this because this might help you on your climb too. And I'll give you one example, Kwame, because you and I were talking about kids, kids earlier. And, uh, doggone it. I use this now with, you know, my wife, with my kids, with my mom. Um, and I love it when it gets used on me. Here it is. This is weird. Do not tell your kids. I'm looking at you now, because I know you got the two boys. Do not tell your sons. I'm proud of you. Okay. What don't tell your sons. I'm proud of you. Try this instead. In the moments when you're so excited and beaming and you want to say, I'm so proud of you, try.

44:11You should be proud of yourself. Dude, you should be proud of yourself. Of course, I'm proud of you. I'm your dad. I love you and all that. But that doesn't matter right now. You should be proud of yourself. Because what just happened there? Who's the source of the pride? they are the source they carry themselves into their moments and you know when you give them that gift where you go you should be proud of yourself you know i should they don't need you in the room anymore to feel proud of themselves in moments like that of course you're going to be proud of them but it's but pride is not necessarily a gift we should bestow on people it's a gift we should allow them to give themselves you know and we're back to we're back to self-confidence again.

45:01And even my mom, she's 89 years old. And my dad passed away after five years battling with dementia. And when he died, they had been married for 66 years. So their relationship was everything. It was her identity. And this woman just poured herself into her man, especially on those last five years when she was everything. And it was a masterclass in commitment to his last breath, literally. And now she starts a new season. And it's scary. Is I've got to go out as a widow. I've got to go out and meet new people and trying to be social. And I'm sad and I don't know what it's like. So as she enters this season, she had to take risks and put herself out there.

45:49And when she would say, hey, I went to a Bible study group. I met some nice people. I went out there. everything in me wanted to go, mom, I'm so proud of you. Of course I am. Of course I am. But for me to go, you should be proud of yourself. You know what? It is not easy to do what you just did. A lot of people would not have even taken that step. You should be proud of the fact that you're one of the people who does. And she's like, you know what? You're right. And I almost kind of made the moment about me giving her my pride instead of you know letting her just recognize the pride in herself so i'm connecting the dots all just back to i love the fact that i'm on the same mountain as everybody else trying to love the people in their life who need to be loved and trying to get out of their own way so often this is powerful kevin i'm thinking for me as a father too, there are a couple of things that come to mind.

46:57First of all, in many ways, we will end up, even after we pass, we will end up being the internal voices for our children. They're going to hear echoes of our voices from time to time. Script will play. Right? And so you should be proud of yourself. That's a script that I want them to play in their minds so they can have more of a strong internal source of validation that is more consistent and aligned with their values that can keep them focused on the path. But to have their dad's voice is the one echoing that. There's a lot of layers of goodness to that. 100%. 100%. And I'm thinking too, based on the way that you've talked about your parents in this podcast thus far, it's clear that they've had a very strong impact, aren't they?

47:44It's taught you a lot over the decades, but I'd be more interested to see what are the lessons you've learned from both of them in the last 10 years? Because this is a new chapter with your father passing, your mother having to adopt a new identity in many ways. What has that taught you? Oh, gosh. You talk about stripping the ability to have excuses. My mom has a social life now that I could never keep up with. I mean, this woman is out there just crushing. And I'm like, I got to up my game. I mean, there's some of that, you know, trying to keep up with that. So I've seen, gosh, there's so many things.

48:30Just as a guy who really studies human behavior and sort of layers of the human experience, You know, when I sat in the room after my dad literally passed the family, it was, it was beautiful and powerful. The whole family was there huddled around dad, hands on him and just hugging each other as he, as he passed away. And then the, everybody else had to kind of go and prepare for sort of the next family get together. and my mom and I stayed back waiting for the people to take my dad. And it was amazing how quickly she had to figure out who am I now? I mean, within 30 seconds of everybody leaving, she goes, oh my God, I'm a widow.

49:15I mean, she'd never said those words before. That's now the asterisk next to me. And that was interesting. And it just reminded me of the importance of just our identity. Who am I? Who am I to others? Who am I to myself? Who am I in my faith? Just clarity on that is important for people to navigate life. My dad was an entrepreneur, which means big swings, sometimes huge hits, sometimes big misses. And there was, he got caught up in the whole 2008 financial just collapse. And in Southwest Florida in 2008, it was a bloodbath. And he was out there and other families working alongside him. So a lot of people were involved in this and it was no fault of it, but everybody got caught in this.

50:11But he's in his mid seventies at this time. And there's no time to really recover. and you know he and my mom were expecting certain golden era of life and this looks like the whole story's just changed so there's heartbreak there and my dad actually said hey I'm worried about one of your brothers going through this because he's taking a lot of this on too he said I want you to come down put eyes on your brother and just make sure he's he's okay so I go down check on my brother. And then I'm with my dad that night and he's just standing on the back porch overlooking the back patio. There's a lake back there.

50:55And he always, he wasn't necessarily a reflective guy. So it was weird to see him sort of standing there, you know, just looking out on the horizon. And with all the emotion swirling in the season, I can only imagine what was going on through his head. You know, just, I failed my family. I've now got my kids involved in this, and I've done this to my wife, and it's so embarrassing. And I can only imagine what the voices were. So I walked up next to him and I said, hey, dad, how are you doing in all this? You know, you've got me checking on everybody else, but how are you doing on this? And then he said something that is one of those things, Kwame, that I take with me now, and I've offered it to other people.

51:40I'm a big fan of battle cries and he didn't know he was giving me one, but this is it. He said, Kevin, all I know how to do is keep showing up. You just keep showing up. Just I'll bring ideas and effort and a good attitude. And I got to think that eventually we find our way through this storm, but I'm just going to keep showing up. And I thought, that's not a bad voice to hear in our head. When it feels like I'm swinging in the dark, I don't know what to do. Just keep showing up is a Larry Basic battle cry. And in a season in teenage years, we had a season where one of our daughters was not acting like anything we would have expected.

52:24And it was just heartbreaking. And thanks to my brother offering a similar battle cry, he said, when we've had tough moments like this, my wife and I just look at each other and we say, I don't know how we're going to get through it. but I will tell you this, we're going to love our way through it. We're going to love our way through this. And just certain phrases in battle cries can help reorient us to our code of excellence, right? Our shared code of excellence. And we're reminding ourselves, we're going to live that in this time of uncertainty because that's not a bad path to follow. I'm going to keep showing up.

53:05We're going to love our way through this. I'll never parent out of emotional control. I'm willing to go there and have the tough, necessary conversations with love because that's who we are to each other. So there's, you know, one of the things I help companies through is what's the creed, the shared code of excellence that you want to codify that will guide your team going forward. But man, it's important for a family too. So good. Thank you. Thank you for being so vulnerable with us there. And I love this term battle cry too, because one thing that's coming to mind, it's Leonardo da Vinci's quote, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

53:45And within each of those battle cries, there's such depth, such depth. And what's really fascinating is that under duress in these most difficult circumstances, people are, they will latch on to these battle cries and they're not going to latch on to an unnecessarily wordy. Yeah, right. The seven principles for, yes. Exactly. way the simplicity is the ultimate sophistication it's so important and and it's the reason why we keep coming back to them for 2 000 years it's true they may be said a bunch of different ways but control what you can control is just a battle cry which who doesn't need to come back to that every once in a while i mean daily and i think that's one of the things that is really fascinating about the fundamentals you when you see elite performers they constantly revisit the front fundamentals day after day.

54:42You see these great athletes, they'll keep on going back to what it was that they were doing just since they were children because the fundamentals never go out of style. And now one thing that's interesting is that we have an identity and an authentic version of ourselves at our core. And I think that aligns really well with integrity because Because you're always going to care about your family. You are always going to care about service to the community and the country. That's who you are. But then looking at your life, looking at the lives of your parents and the people who are these incredible honorees, their identity can be edited around those core fundamentals, which is really interesting.

55:30Because like your father said, he said, I've never been in a situation like this, but I do know that I will keep showing up. This is what I do, who I am. That is so true. Let's talk about identity. How key is that to courage and the willingness to take a big swing? Yeah, so I love, you know, identity is what we pursue. You never achieve an identity. You always pursue an identity because it's always tested. You know, just when you feel like I am a leader, okay, well, then here's a new moment. You try this knucklehead or try this environment or try this total pivot, try a pandemic. And now tell me if you're done cooking.

56:13So an identity is something you pursue. And the clearer you are on that identity, who is it you are trying to be while you're doing what you do? The clearer you are on that, what happens is the clearer the dashboard light goes off to signal this is a moment that counts. You said you wanted to be that. hey, game on. The fact that you took the time to say as a leader, as a boss, as a supervisor, I want to be empowering. Okay. Let's talk about what do you mean by that? Because the moment will probably show up when there's a lot at stake and it's really easy to go, I'd love to hand you this, but maybe it's better off if I do it this time.

57:00It's just this time, but next time I'll be in power. Hey, you just missed an at-bat. So our identity, the clearer you are, the clearer you are as a team. I'll give you an example. Chick-fil-A, I was working with them and one of the owner operators out in California had created sort of a mini creed for his team. And he had a phrase in there that said, here on this team. And this is not Chick-fil-A's team. He's like on this corner of Franklin and 101st street here, we talk to each other, not about each other. That's just who we are. That's at least one piece of who we are. We talk to each other and about each other.

57:45The fact that he clarified that makes the moment much easier to identify when somebody comes up to you and he's like, what's going on with Karen? Well, why are you talking to me about this? You should be talking going to be caring about this, right? This moment is a chance for you to live that out because right now you are out of integrity with that thing we said is our creed. So identity is a powerful thing. And the deeper it is, the more visceral it is, the more, hell yeah, that's what I want to be. The more we're willing to tolerate the suck, the more even if we don't have competence or we don't have confidence.

58:27That might be just the commitment alone can be enough to fuel us to just at least get into the arena. There's a lot of Olympic people who go, I want to be an Olympian. You know, Apollo Ono has just as some great insights in just the mindset to say, for me to plant that flag and go, I want to be an Olympian. I accept all of the pain that is about to come my way. And I will train a certain way that normal people won't train because they ain't Olympians and I am. So a dear friend of mine, Dr. Arthur Schwartz, he said, whenever we make a commitment, we sacrifice freedoms. Okay. No matter what the commitment is, when you make a commitment, you sacrifice freedoms.

59:16You have lost the right to complain about the thing you just said you're in for. You make a commitment in a marriage, you've lost the right now to pursue other people. And you're going to really take this thing on. So I just love the effect that you don't, you commit to an identity and then you pursue it moment by moment in spite of all the obstacles. And again, we're back to competence, confidence, commitment seem to be the things that help people get across these testable gaps and bring that to life. Oh, Kevin, this is so good. This is so good. Okay, before we wrap, let's bring in Simone. He's been waiting patiently.

59:57He always has an insightful comment or question to ask. Bring it on, Simone.

1:00:05Kevin, does age have something to do about how courageous you are? I'll tell you why. because when I started to work with Kwame, it was seven years ago. I didn't speak English at all. And I told him, yes, I can edit your episodes. And I had to work with the dictionary trying to find the words, you know. And now after 1 ,000 episodes, Kwame told me, hey, Simon, why don't you ask a question to our guests? And I said, I don't know, Kwame, I don't speak English. It's very difficult. and he told me, I don't know if you noticed, but now you speak English. So he lent me his confidence, right? Yes, exactly.

1:00:54But I don't know if it was my age now or any other aspect that I'm not aware of. What do you think about that? That's a great question, Simone. And I really haven't explored that. So I'm thinking while I'm talking here. now you know age is kind of a proxy maybe for experience and wisdom and things so with experience comes additional reps so as those increase fear can go down and courage can go up you know fear hates reps so um the you know you've done a thousand podcasts now you're not as afraid of editing podcasts because you're like done it a million times and i i'm confident i'm not going going to screw it up or I can recover from any mistake I made.

1:01:38And now he puts you on a new path and you're like, whoa, we're back at the beginning and I've not done anything like this. Talk to me in two months. And I bet after you've asked a hundred questions to podcast members, you go, I'm asking better questions than anybody else's, right? You'll be a pro. Now, as we get older, of course, we get more comfortable. We get into habits. We get into ruts and routines where we feel I'm confident and comfortable here. So anything that shifts us out of that routine is going to really shock things. So I think with age, again, it's maybe a little bit more of a proxy of comfort in what we're used to doing.

1:02:23So we've had more practice making those ruts a little bit deeper. But I still think we're back to competence, confidence, commitment is I bet there are other people who have had a language barrier who have become great sidekicks in podcasts. Go to them and watch them. You can pick up tips and techniques. You got tools. You know, there's borrowed competence too. AI can be a great tool to help cover down on some of this. And a burden does not fall to you. You know, you can take hats off and hand them to others, including actual tools confidence like he said you're better than you're giving yourself credit for let me remind you let me take you by the ear and show you all the brilliant things you're already doing that are equivalent to what that is and then uh commitment do you want to grow into the bigger version of yourself is there is there is untapped potential in simone that uh uh kwami you just happen to be blessed with a friend colleague mentor who is going to um want to unleash that and i will uh you you mentioned michelangelo earlier uh i heard a great quote from him you know he had his sculpting phase he had his his art his painting phase well in the sculpting phase he was asked master how do you create the masterpiece of the sculpture and he famously said uh i don't the masterpiece already exists i just see the angel in the stone and then i carve until i set it free and brother there's an angel in your stone and kwame's just going i'm gonna chip away a little bit might get a little comfortable but before you know it you're gonna be like hey i'm a pretty good podcast co-host here which you already are yes oh man And this is so weird.

1:04:20I heard this great quote. They said, the universe whispers before it yells. And what's really funny is that just last night in my journal, I was journaling about Michelangelo and how he made that quote about the statue of David, how it took so long. And I didn't realize how big it is. 17 feet tall. It's huge. It's amazing. Yes. And so what I was thinking is, how can I draw this metaphor? Is it too absurd and maybe too philosophically unnecessary to draw a connection between the swings that Michelangelo was taking with his hammer and chisel and the swings that we take in our lives? Dude, we could spend the next hour talking about how brilliant an analogy that is because it was an imperfect piece of stone.

1:05:10It was a piece of stone. Others said, can't do it with that. and he's like i i got an idea there it's in there you just don't know it and he took an imperfect piece of stone and made not a he didn't just make a stinking statue he made a masterpiece for all time and part of the reason it's a masterpiece is because it was an imperfect stone right and i have you seen it in person no haven't okay so i i saw it i saw it about seven seven years ago and we're actually going to europe next week with the family and i when i stood in front of the david i said i will not die happy if my children do not get to see i want to i want to have them stand in front of this thing but the first time i went people like we're going to see the one of the uh one of the great pieces of art we're going to see one of the masterpieces of all time and i'm like you don't tell me what a masterpiece is right it's art i will tell you if it's a masterpiece and you stand in front of it and you're like, yeah, it's a freaking masterpiece.

1:06:14Dude, he didn't mail it in on anything. I walked around the backside because I'm like, okay, the front is, that's the, that's the headline. And it's amazing. And it's intentionally disproportionate because he knew you'd be 17 feet down below. So the head's bigger than it's supposed to be, but it makes it work. And his eyes are, the gaze of his eyes is different than every other David because you could see the contemplation and the way that his pinky is extended. There's a certain tendon that's only visible when the pinky is at that position. And he got that right. Then I walked around the backside and I'm like, if ever a guy has earned the right to just go, you know, you know what the back of the leg looks like.

1:06:56It'll be fine. Every vein and tendon is there. He didn't mail it in on anything. And he took an imperfect stone and made a perfect thing out of it. So I love that your journal teased that out of you last night. This is great. Okay, everybody, just wait for an excessively nerdy breakdown. Yeah, that's it. The next guest will be Michelangelo, ladies and gentlemen. Bring him in. Oh, man, Kevin, this was so, so good. Listen, brother, I appreciate you. Before you go, you have to let the listeners know how they can get in touch. and also give them a shout out to the resource that we're going to link to in the description as well.

1:07:39Yeah. Okay. So yeah, first the resource, obviously in the human arena, especially in behavioral science, we know that trust is won in drips and lost in buckets. So trust is so important to any relationship in any organization. And trust is a volley, right? It's like hitting to forehands. The ball picks up pace as things go well, but sometimes the ball is just sitting on the court and somebody's got to put the ball in play. Well, I've created just a simple one page document of the types of things that people, leaders, spouses, friends, parents, when people say things like this, there's a gesture of vulnerability.

1:08:24There's a threat of vulnerability in all of these phrases. and when you say something like this, it starts the volley. And there's something in psychology called the norm of reciprocity is when you say, hey, I'm struggling with something, I can really use your help. Obviously, that's a little bit of vulnerability in making that gesture. The norm of reciprocity says we as human beings just have a tendency of moving a little closer to the other person who made that gesture. When a leader says, I was wrong, when somebody says, I'm sorry, it it's the ball is now placed in your in your court and there's a little thread of vulnerability so we um since trust is so important to building relationships on our human journey the the tool you will see is what's called the vulnerability or the trust serves how do you put the ball in play and what kind of language can you use to maybe start tough conversations it's a competence finance building tool that is going to be hung on the podcast website.

1:09:27So that's out there. There's some other resources and other videos on my website. And if you want to get ahold of me, that's the ask is come check out the website. You'll get a flavor for how I explore leadership, values-driven leadership, behavioral integrity, and my contact info is on the website. So come check that out. And I work with military and corporate and nonprofit and athletes at all levels to pass the testable moments of life and be the leader you mean to be amazing everybody we will have links to everything in the description kevin thank you brother really appreciate it it is an honor to be running with you guys i love love love your podcast i loved your ted talk i love it all man and uh you know you're you're up to something big so thanks you know big big swings are happening and uh i appreciate you being out there doing it amazing thanks kevin this is great