The Secret Pattern All High Achievers Share - Ruth Gotian

0:00Ruth Gotian: Do something important, not just interesting. It's not enough to do good work. It's not enough to get five out of five on every performance appraisal. It's not enough to be the glue that keeps everyone together. And I didn't know what more I could possibly do. This is Dr. Ruth Gotian. She spent her entire career decoding what actually makes people succeed at the highest level. I'm talking about NBA champions, Nobel Prize winners, Olympic gold medalists, and more. And that's when the clarity hit me, was that it's not about waiting to be seen. You have to make yourself undeniable. In this episode, you're going to find out what it really takes to get to the top.

0:43And I promise you, it is not what you think.

0:47Ruth Gotian: I never knew about the rules. And I think there are a lot of people like me who didn't grow up knowing what the rules were. So I am here to clarify to everyone what those rules are. She studied the people who cracked the code, and she's going to share the stories that might make you a little uncomfortable. Because getting what you want sometimes means doing things that don't feel natural at first. She asked him, that guy that I nominated two years ago, he, by the way, won the award, if he would write a letter of support. And he said, I can't. I'm writing it for my buddies, the ones who wrote letters of support for him two years ago.

1:30Ruth Gotian: And that's when I realized that those buddies nominate each other and support each other for awards all the time. And that's why when you see the same people winning all the awards, they gamified it. They figured it out. And here's why this matters. The path to this level of success is not what you think it is. If you keep grinding without a strategy, you'll run out of steam right before the breakthrough. I helped everyone. I was liked by everyone, but never once have I asked for help. And what I have learned is that if there's a goal, you can either get on the bus and come help or get the hell out of my way.

2:11Ruth Gotian: Those are the only two options. Playing it safe is easy. Playing it safe is comfortable. But here's the problem. Playing it safe and playing by rules that were never meant for you will never take you to the next level. If you've got what it takes to hit the ball out of the park, the only thing holding you back is whether you're brave enough to take a big swing. I'm Kwame Christian and this is Big Swings Only. Every week we're telling you the stories of people who fought their fear, chased the life they actually wanted, and became who they had to become to get it. This show is built for people who are meant for more, because if you really want to get to the next level, you've got to do something big.

2:51So the question isn't whether or not you've got what it takes. The question is whether or not you're going to swing. You were built for more, and this show was built for you. Subscribe now.

3:14Just head to granola.ai slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show.

3:43Ruth Gotian: I was the person who always got a five out of five on every single performance appraisal. I was always told on the glue that keeps everything together, we'd be lost without you. The one that they kept giving every fire to put out, even the fires that I haven't started. and one day this dean comes in and he talks to my boss and he said there are two divisions we're merging them together and this guy we'll call him jason is going to head it head up this new massive division sounds great except jason only started eight months ago he hadn't even gone through one cycle, one full year cycle of everything that we do.

4:39Ruth Gotian: He'd never submitted a budget. He'd never had a performance appraisal. He'd never given other people performance appraisals. Why was this guy chosen and I wasn't? And it turns out that it's not that they didn't didn't want me. They never even considered me. I was overlooked. And I was overlooked because I was told I was so reliable and so good right where I was. If we move you, who would do your work? And for the first time in my career, I went to human resources and I said, how can this be? how could this have happened that this brand new person gets promoted and i have been here for i don't know 15 years at that point and i wasn't even considered and that's when i was told oh you have to go through the proper channels and i said what proper channels the position was never even posted there were no channels and that night with some anger and some clarity with a lot of clarity, I decided to dust off a dream that I've had since I was 20 years old.

5:57Ruth Gotian: And I started filling out my application for a doctoral program at Columbia University. And I didn't tell anyone I was applying because there were only five spots for the program I wanted. I only applied to two schools. Columbia was where I wanted to go for many, many reasons. including that it was the top program for what I wanted to study, which was adult learning and leadership. And I got accepted. And of course I went, I made it happen. Even though I was commuting an hour and a half each way to work, I have three young kids, a husband, elder care for my parents, but this is it. This was the time because I was tired of being overlooked.

6:47Ruth Gotian: and I had a lot of questions about success and high performance that had been gnawing at me forever and I really wanted to take a deep dive and learn so I pursued my doctorate while working full-time and all those family obligations and commitments and when I got my doctorate my life has changed for the better. That is powerful, Ruth. I want you to, let's revisit this story. And I want to talk about the meaning that you gave to that story in the moment. So that night when you were filled with emotions, first tell us how you felt, like with detail. And then also, what was the narrative that you constructed at that moment?

7:39And now, looking back with the wisdom of years, now, what is the meaning that you give to that same story?

7:49Ruth Gotian: You know, when I was overlooked, I was furious because I grew up always being told, you do good work, it'll get recognized. And here was my wake-up call that that's not enough. It's not enough to do good work. It's not enough to get five out of five on every performance appraisal. It's not enough to be the glue that keeps everyone together. And I didn't know what more I could possibly do. And then I realized that this guy was schmoozing and networking in a way that I wasn't. Look, I knew everyone at the institution. I had been there for 15 years, and I was respected by everyone. but I don't think I was seen in that different type of role because of the work that I was doing in this role I was seen as executing today's problems instead of a building tomorrow's future

8:50Ruth Gotian: and I was I was angry that I wasn't noticed that being kind to everyone was not enough being respectful to everyone was not enough. Being collaborative with everyone was not enough. Getting perfect scores on NIH government grants was not enough. Doing hard work was not enough. What more do you want from me? Literally, what more do you want? And then I said, I can no longer wait to be seen. and that's when the clarity hit me was that it's not about waiting to be seen you have to make yourself undeniable and I knew I was working in academic medicine at the time everyone around me had an md or a phd so in order to even be considered I knew I had to get one of those degrees now I had wanted to do it when I was 20 but I thought about it first when I was 20 but then life happened um so I didn't um but then now is the time I mean it it always stayed with me and you always think you know like when do you want your first child it's never a really good time when are you going to get your doctorate it's never a really good time well it's never a really good time so find the less bad time and just do it and one thing that i can tell you is that never have i been so laser focused in my entire life and i finished it in record time because i was not here to waste time um quick time out simone i think we have our first episode just putting that on there I love near near's work is fantastic this is our first episode okay so let's just stipulate to that um okay back back in in the group so Ruth your answer gave me chills because the the word that did it for me was undeniable and you saw Simone's response when you said that because for me my my mentality on thought leadership and just career growth in general is to be undeniable because, you know, we're going to focus on your story, but in my story too, there were times where there were questions.

11:14And the thing is, there are shades in your story that weren't explicit, but I think everybody here listening can relate to a time in their life where they were overlooked because of some way that somebody saw them that was inaccurate. Whether it's race, gender, background, appearance, whatever it happens to be for whatever reason, we have all felt that. And so the response is not to sit down and say, woe is me. And it's not to say this is unfair. It's to say, this will never happen again. I'm going to do a very thorough postmortem to figure out what led me to this position. And then I am going to make sure that I take control of my life and do what I can to move forward.

12:01And you create a bulletproof, undeniable case so that even if somebody despises you, they have to say this person. They are too good to say no to. And that's what you've done. And now looking at your story, too, there's so much. We've known each other for years. There's so much more of your story that I understand, too, because you study greatness. Yes, you studied the greatest people to ever walk this planet and you dissect what makes them incredible. And then I always wondered, it was an interesting, I perceived it as a detour to talking about networking with our friend Andy Lopata. But now I see, and tell me if I'm off on this, but it seems as though a part of this was to make sure that you could give people the tools that you needed at that time.

12:53when you, because now you recognize being good enough, being exceptional is not good enough in a lot of these cases. There's a different way of networking that will get you where you want to go.

13:04Ruth Gotian: That's so true. And, you know, I didn't, I'm not sure I connected all those dots when I was in the heat of the moment, but I got, I studied success in high performance because I've been obsessed with it for so long. And as you mentioned, I have the true privilege of talking every day to Nobel Prize winners and Olympians and NBA champions, etc. But it's through what they told me. And as I did these hundreds and hundreds of interviews, when I realized that their networking is different. And then I overshadowed their stories on my story. And I realized there was a delta, There was a gap between how they did it and how I did it.

13:51Ruth Gotian: I was liked and I was respected and I was, everyone saw me as a collaborator and a fixer, but the way they networked was different. They were seen as strategic. They were seen as builders. They were seen as leaders. And if I was going to be seen that way, I had to take some of those lessons and really learn to implement it in my own way, in a way that I'm comfortable with, because like them, networking should never be transactional. It's not who I am. It's not how it works. So to my core, I am still, let's get to know each other. Let's find out if we like each other. Let's find out if our values are aligned.

14:39If they are, I'll help you.

14:43Ruth Gotian: and maybe one day I'll need help with something, and I will feel comfortable enough asking for that help. But it's because I built that foundation. I think what I did early on was that I helped everyone. I was liked by everyone, but never once have I asked for help. And I have learned that asking for help is not a sign of weakness. People want to help. They just don't know how to help you. But if you tell them specifically what it is that you're looking for, people can help. You know, I've been for each book that came out, I did about 200 podcast interviews. And I always say, how can I be helpful?

15:26Ruth Gotian: That's how I close it. And they say, I don't know. And then I finally say, do you need to be introduced to any really good guests for your podcast? I know that's what they need. And I'm able to make those connections. So I think offering to help and then when you need help, ask for it. But you can't ask for it until you have already built that relationship. And that took years to figure out. the this is the simplicity is something that often can belie the brilliance beneath it because it took a long time to figure out how to do it and then how to do it authentically in a way that didn't um wasn't off-putting to yourself and others and i've been like i said we've been friends for a while and i've always admired the way that you do this because you're the kind of friend where you're saying, hey, listen, I'm on my way up.

16:23I see you're on my way up. Let's get up faster. And then we collaborate and move up. And it's beautiful in the way that you do it because it is rooted in authenticity. It is rooted in reciprocity and you have a true desire to help everybody around you. And that's the beauty of it. Now, let's go back to the story because when you said you were saying that the people that were making the decision, they didn't see you in the way that you needed to be seen. And I want to kind of dissect this a little bit because a lot of times we have this simple mentality where we say, okay, hard work pays off. You do the right thing long enough, good things happen.

17:06And really that is a game with a very low ceiling. And what you had to do is you changed the game completely. changed the game completely. So tell me if this resonates with you. Was there any resistance internally when it came to changing the game that you felt where you said, okay, I shouldn't have to gamify this in order to get the recognition that I deserve and the opportunities I deserve? Was that a hard transition to make?

17:36Ruth Gotian: I'm going to tell you a story. there was this big award in our industry and there was this one guy who I thought would be really good for it and he stopped by my office and I told him I said I really think you should go for this award biggest award and he said who would nominate me and I said I'll nominate you and trust me I know how to put a nomination packet together it's like I put all the bells and whistles on. And he said, great, thank you. And I thought, okay, I have hours of work to put together this nomination pack. I said, just send me your CV. Oh, he didn't just send me his CV. He sent me his CV.

18:19Ruth Gotian: He sent me a bio which was customized for this award that I was nominating him for. It highlighted exactly what I should highlight in my letter of nomination. And he gave me the names of three people who could write letters of support. It was brilliant.

18:45Ruth Gotian: And then someone reached out to him and said, I want to nominate Ruth for this award. Would you write a letter of support. And I didn't know she was doing this. And he said, I can't. She's nominating me already. Two years later, it's my last year that I'm eligible for this award. And now I realize you need to ask people. So I asked this woman, because he told me that she asked and he had to say no. So I reached out to her and I said, this is my last year of eligibility. I heard two years ago you want to nominate me if you still think I'm worthy would you be willing to nominate me and she said oh sure absolutely now I had already learned that I need to send my CV a customized bio and the names of three people who would write letters of support right I learned this game she asked him that guy that I nominated two years ago he by the way won the award if he would write a letter of support.

19:54Ruth Gotian: And he said, I can't. I'm writing it for my buddies, the ones who wrote letters of support for him two years ago. And that's when I realized that those buddies nominate each other and support each other for awards all the time. And that's why when you see the same people winning all the awards, they gamified it. They figured it out. So he wasn't willing to write the letter of nomination for my award. P.S. I won the award that year. And he was in the audience when I won. And it took him a good 20 minutes to come over to say congratulations. So how did it feel? The best revenge is success. And I am really competitive, mostly with myself.

20:48And what I have learned is that if there's a goal, you can either get on the bus and come help or get the hell out of my way.

20:57Ruth Gotian: Those are the only two options. Have you ever walked out of a meeting feeling really good about it? And then 10 minutes later, someone's messaging you saying something like, wait, what did we actually decide in that meeting? That gap between what happened and what anyone remembers is exactly what Granola AI closes. Honestly, the first time I looked back at my notes afterwards, I didn't expect them to be that clean. It was more organized than anything I'd ever written myself, and I hadn't done any extra work to get there. Granola AI is an AI-powered notepad built for how people actually meet. You take the same rough notes that you always would, and in the background, Granola AI is quietly transcribing the conversation.

21:35As soon as the meeting wraps, it turns all of that into clear, structured notes automatically. And it also runs through your device's audio, so there's no bots joining your call and nothing extra to configure. It just fits nicely into the tools you already use. You can stay focused on the conversation and still walk away knowing exactly what decided and who's doing what next. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just head to granola.ai slash kwami. That's granola.ai slash kwami to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash kwami.

22:11the first thing that I ever got from quince was this pair of really nice formal pants but they were stretchy and made for travel so for me as a lawyer and businessman as I travel and I do these keynotes all over the world it's really nice to be able to know that I could wear something that looks good in the airport that's comfortable on the airplane and I could wear comfortably if I have to roll into a meeting or an event right after getting off the plane and it was only 60 And that's what turned me into a repeat customer because quince focuses on wardrobe stables that are made with premium materials So for example 100 % Mongolian cashmere organic cotton and as it's gotten colder I've been leaning on their down jackets and wool outerwear, too They're solid warm layers that don't feel like they're cutting corners just because the price is lower And that's really the whole model because everything at quince runs about 50 to 80 % less than similar brands simply because they cut out the middlemen and work directly with ethical factories.

23:11But the thing is, it's not only clothing either. They carry that same quality into bedding, bath, kitchen essentials, and furniture, all designed with the same care. I use Quince, and so should you. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. and when quince asks you where you heard about them let him know it was me that's the best way to support the show now everybody's seeing why i love ruth this is great see we were wasting our time all the time having her come and talk about these gold medalists and whatnot no we need to hear this i love this because again it's it's helping us to understand how you got to where you are and this is the thing i i tell my sons 10 and 4 the four-year-old doesn't get it He will eventually.

24:05Yes. But I'd say, Kai, nothing is real. Nothing is real. Everything is made up. Tell better stories. Be rooted in ethics and truth. But just tell better stories. Because we have this false idea of meritocratic achievement. Yeah. Where we say, okay, it's like the Olympics. Okay, you say in both, 100 meters. everybody has an equal shot. That's why we like sports, because we know we can't get that same kind of equal playing field anywhere else. And once you come to terms with the fact that everything is a game, now you need to figure out what game you are willing to play and what kind of player you want to be.

24:49That's really it. And I remember I was coaching this one person. He was a fellow lawyer, and he said we were helping with his negotiation skills, but also career trajectory. And he said, I'm really frustrated because there's a community service award and the people who keep getting it, I know for a fact I do more community service and I don't do community service for, um, for recognition, but it bothers me that I don't get it. And I hate that it bothers me. I said, well, have you shared that you do this? Have you shared it? Because you don't need to share it for your own sake necessarily. You could share it so you could raise awareness for the opportunity for other people to do it.

25:28You need to find a heart centered approach that still resonates with you while at the same time making sure you can get your recognition if that's something you want. Use both strategies at the same time. And when he did it, the next year he got the award and a few years later he was general counsel. There you go. You know, and again, it was once you get past that resistance internally and start to recognize that the game you thought you were playing is very different, then you can say, okay, now I can have a little bit of fun with this. And I also want to talk to you about the fact that you have found a way to succeed in a way that nobody else has.

26:04So there's no, think about it. Who's the other Ruth? Tell me somebody else who is your, there's nobody else who has that combination. Does somebody come close? Honestly, no.

26:20Ruth Gotian: So. So, well, Kwame, you know, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but, you know, you said about the rules. I never knew about the rules. And I think there are a lot of people like me who didn't grow up knowing what the rules were. If you tell me the rules, I will win. I told you I'm very competitive. I will do what it takes. But if I don't know the rules or the rules are changing mid game. I don't know which way I'm running. I don't know what it is that you expect me to do. So I am here to clarify to everyone what those rules are. And there are a few pieces of advice that I got along the way, which have been transformational.

27:06Ruth Gotian: And most of them were just one line long. One of them, when I was applying, there was actually a physician who stopped by my office. And there was another colleague who was also applying to a doctoral program at around that time. And I was wondering, oh, should I apply broadly and so on? And she said, you need to apply to a school where it will be undeniable that you got the world-class education and that it matters and its values. You need a school that people have heard of. I hadn't considered that. I hadn't considered that at all before. And she said graduate school is different from undergrad.

27:55Okay.

27:56Ruth Gotian: Then someone else said, when I did get accepted,

28:03Ruth Gotian: do something important, not just interesting. And that was my mentor, Bert Shapiro, Dr. Bert Shapiro. And he said, if you do something important, you will have a ripple effect of an impact. and you are looking at a problem from an angle no one else has looked at. And that's when the population was just one group. It was physician scientists. Over time, it expanded because, Kwame, like you said, people who studied high performance, either A, they weren't the ones doing the research. Someone else was doing the research and they are reporting on it. or B, most people are looking at sports because that's the easiest to measure and I get it.

28:54Ruth Gotian: That's why I look at elite athletes as well. But when I was able to compare it to other industries, to the Nobel Prize winners, to the astronauts, to the CEOs, to some senior politicians, that's when I noticed the patterns and that's what made it undeniable. And the reason I love it is because the work will outlive me. It will outlive me. There are always more people who I can interview. So just interviewed an Olympic silver medalist yesterday. this is amazing and again i begs the question who else does this you this is this is one of the the most beautiful elements of your success is because it's not just the the height of the achievement it's the uniqueness and the uniqueness the authenticity is protective in itself because nobody can compete directly with you unless they are trying to play your game, which nobody can play better than you because you made it up for yourself, which also helps us to recognize why so many of us feel stuck.

30:03We start playing the game that other people made for themselves, and we wonder why we can't get to their level because you're not them. You're trying to be them when you should be being yourself.

30:16Ruth Gotian: That's right. That's right. And, you know, I tried doing it by other people's rules. That didn't work. And I had to create a new lane instead of trying to wedge my way into someone else's lane. And was it easy? Oh, God, no. It was not easy at all. would I do it again in a heartbeat in a heartbeat and one of the reasons I recently retired after nearly 30 years from my faculty role and my chief learning officer role at Weill Cornell Medicine and now I now am working on my own doing the keynoting executive coaching and writing But I am also back teaching at the place where it all started at Columbia because, and I teach about high achievers and high performance because I want to be around those people who are stimulating my mind to think about things differently.

31:18Ruth Gotian: and I wanted to be close to that environment. I wanted to be in that environment because I don't agree with everything, but it gets me to think about things in a way I hadn't even considered. I want to be near those students. I want to be near those faculty. I want to be steps away from the library so that I can access the journals and read the latest research and compare that to what I'm doing, contrast it with what I'm doing. I can't live in my own bubble. So am I a quote unquote thought leader? Maybe. I strive to be. But it's the research that pushes it forward. And I will always continue doing it because the thought leadership has to be evidence-based.

32:04Ruth Gotian: It cannot be based on whims and vibes and good feelings and a lot of hand-waving. It has to be research-based. And I do the research and I stay on top of the research other people are doing. Because together, I think it's better than what any one person can do on their own. I agree 100%. And I think we would be remiss at this point to not discuss the secrets of success that you found in these incredible high achievers. Because you are one of those incredible high achievers. You've studied these other incredible high achievers. And I think what's so interesting is the consistency where you have the people who are introduced to your thought leadership, they are left with no excuse for execution because you've made it clear, hey, don't say because you're not running this Olympic race, you can't implement these same things.

33:03There are general principles of success. So what are those?

33:07Ruth Gotian: That's right. And that's what I discuss in my book, The Success Factor. So the first one, if you've ever heard about the habits of waking up at 5 a.m. and read for five hours a day and make your bed before you do anything else, I want you to forget all of it. Because you cannot copy other people's habits. That's their lives. It's not your lives. You can't just superimpose their lives into your own. But what you can do is emulate their mindsets. And what I have realized is that the mindset is the same in the Nobel Prize winners, the astronauts, the Olympians, the NBA champions, the CEOs. And the first thing that they did is they tapped into their intrinsic motivation.

33:50why are they doing this work this is the reason they wake up in the morning this is the reason

33:56Ruth Gotian: they can't quiet their mind at night this is what they can't not do they have to do it they love doing it right it's they get paid and get paid well for it that's a bonus this is why they were doing it. And I had a Nobel Prize winner who I interviewed who had a serious cardiac event, and he had to have surgery. And while he was recovering at home, he would bring in his lab into his home for lab meetings. So everyone could discuss their research, and he could weigh in and hear the updates. And I said, who does this? Who wants to see you in your sweats? when you come into work in a suit in your home to discuss science right after you've had major heart surgery.

34:52Ruth Gotian: And he said, Ruth, you don't understand. This is part of my recovery. I need to do this. Have you ever walked out of a meeting feeling really good about it? And then 10 minutes later, someone's messaging you saying something like, wait, what did we actually decide in that meeting? That gap between what happened and what anyone remembers is exactly what Granola AI closes. Honestly, the first time I looked back at my notes afterwards, I didn't expect them to be that clean. It was more organized than anything I'd ever written myself, and I hadn't done any extra work to get there. Granola AI is an AI-powered notepad built for how people actually meet.

35:27You take the same rough notes that you always would, and in the background, Granola AI is quietly transcribing the conversation. As soon as the meeting wraps, it turns all of that into clear, structured notes automatically. And it also runs through your device's audio, so there's no bots joining your call and nothing extra to configure. It just fits nicely into the tools you already use. You can stay focused on the conversation and still walk away knowing exactly what decided and who's doing what next. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months.

36:00Just head to granola.ai.com. That's granola.ai.com Kwame to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. The first thing that I ever got from Quince was this pair of really nice formal pants, but they were stretchy and made for travel. So for me as a lawyer and businessman, as I travel and I do these keynotes all over the world, it's really nice to be able to know that I could wear something that looks good in the airport, that's comfortable on the airplane, and I could wear comfortably if I have to roll into a meeting or an event right after getting off the plane and it was only$60 and that's what turned me into a repeat customer because Quince focuses on wardrobe staples that are made with premium materials.

36:45So for example 100 % Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton and as it's gotten colder I've been leaning on their down jackets and wool outerwear too. They're solid warm layers that don't feel like they're cutting corners just because the price is lower. And that's really the whole model. Because everything at Quince runs about 50 to 80 % less than similar brands simply because they cut out the middlemen and work directly with ethical factories. But the thing is, it's not only clothing either. They carry that same quality into bedding, bath, kitchen essentials, and furniture, all designed with the same care.

37:19I use Quince and so should you. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show.

37:41Ruth Gotian: I need to, this is what makes me feel good. So that's the intrinsic motivation. Even when you have hard times, you're willing to do it. It's not about the awards, rewards, promotions, bonuses. That's when other people are judging you. And we have learned that that you cannot maintain or sustain. In fact, the last question I ask every athlete is to show me their medal. Only two of them have had it on display. It's usually in a sock drawer. It's in a safe. It's at the parents' house. It's in the nightstand drawer. the one who I interviewed yesterday, her Olympic silver medalist is in a gallon Ziploc bag in her shoe closet.

38:26Ruth Gotian: What? A gallon Ziploc bag. Yes. Apollo Ono was in a brown paper bag in his sock drawer. Yeah. Because the medal was a chapter in their lives, not the entire story. Right? It was a goal, not the goal. There's not a single scientist who started doing science with the goal of winning the Nobel Prize. Their goal was to do good science, to find a treatment, to find a cure, to find a way of doing something better. It was not to win the Nobel Prize. So that's number one. Number two, obviously you need resilience and grit and hard work and all of that. I didn't need to get a doctorate to figure that out.

39:15Ruth Gotian: You can't be successful if you don't work hard. I tell people and I've told my kids, success only comes before work in the dictionary. But what is different is how they solve problems. And this to me was really eye-opening. So I share the story of Dr. Peggy Whitson, who was a biochemist who worked at NASA. Not everyone who works at NASA is an astronaut. But she had a dream of becoming an astronaut. And she would see the astronauts coming in and out. And she always wanted. And she applied. But she got rejected. And she applied again. And she got rejected. And she applied again. And got rejected.

40:00Ruth Gotian: And this story kept going on over and over again for 10 years until she was finally accepted. And I said, Dr. Whitson who applies for the same job for a decade. And she said, Ruth, the question was never if I was going to become an astronaut. I knew I would be. The question was how. You see, she put herself in the driver's seat. This was no longer about what other people saw in her. This was no longer about perception. She was not going to be overlooked. She was going to make herself undeniable. And she did get accepted because she said there's a gap between what they see and what I'm showing them.

40:39Ruth Gotian: I need to figure out what that gap is and then work on closing that gap. And that's what she did. And ultimately, she got accepted as an astronaut. She flew until recently she held the record for the most days in space of any American astronaut. She became the first female commander of the International Space Station, a role she held twice. And that woman, who was rejected for a decade from becoming an astronaut, ultimately went on to become NASA's chief astronaut in charge of all the astronauts. She has since retired from NASA and then came out of retirement to now work on the private space shuttles.

41:24Ruth Gotian: this woman is legendary but that's because she put herself in the driver's seat and she wasn't waiting for other people to notice her she was going to make herself undeniable and then the third layer of success is that strong foundation now we've all heard of Kobe Bryant who unfortunately I never had the opportunity to interview but you've all heard the legendary stories that he would go at four or five in the morning and practice his layups. He could do layups in his sleep. Did he really need to practice? Yes, he did. Because that's what made him so good. And the same warmup you see the NBA doing is the same warmup you'd see any seventh grader doing in their gym.

42:11Ruth Gotian: Nothing is different except the price of their sneakers. that's it it's the same warm-up same exercises same layups you have to have that strong foundation and constantly reinforce it one of the people who i got to interview was neil katyal he has argued over 50 cases before the supreme court of the united states more than any other minority lawyer and he does the same three things before every case the first thing he does is he prepares a binder that has the answer to every possible question he might get asked. In over 50 cases, he's never once opened that binder. But he said that the process of preparing that binder prepared him for the case.

42:58Ruth Gotian: The second thing he does is he holds multiple moot courts. These are simulations so that he can refine every single argument that he has. He did that with Supreme court case number one, and he did that with Supreme court case number 50. And the last thing he does is the night before the opening arguments, he goes into his children's room and their bedtime story becomes the opening arguments because he said, if a child can understand it, the court can understand it. He had learned how to simplify his communication. Why use a 25 cent word when a five-cent word would do. And the last thing is, and this is the one that surprised me the most, and this is why we hear leaders or readers read for three to five hours a day.

43:50Ruth Gotian: You know, Mark Cuban does it. Bill Gates does it. Warren Buffett does it. That's not what made them billionaires. Sure, they're reading. And as an avid reader and as an author of four books, I want you to read. But what they're doing is they're consuming new knowledge. And you can consume new knowledge by reading books, by reading articles, by watching TED Talks, by listening to podcasts. Hopefully everyone's learning something new here today. There's so many ways to learn new knowledge, but the differentiator is you take in all that information and you start to make connections that other people don't yet see.

44:29Ruth Gotian: And I was able to do that with the high achievers across industries. Everyone is able to do that in a different way. And one of those ways, besides the books and the podcasts and the TED Talks and the keynotes, is through mentors. Every single high achiever I have interviewed surrounded themselves with a team of mentors. And that's why I wrote two books just on mentorship, because it was so critical to their success. So those are the four elements of success in a nutshell. As you can see, I really geek out on this. To the person listening, if you haven't figured out why Ruth is one of the top book speakers in the nation, you please rewind and start this whole thing over.

45:18This is so good. I'm on my second page of notes. This is incredible.

45:27Ruth Gotian: Tommy, you know what you remind me of? What? I'm going to tell you. So I gave the keynote. It's called the success factor. And I was talking about the four elements of success.

45:40Ruth Gotian: And because of what happened, I now changed my keynote. I asked something at the beginning. And now I ask, is anyone sitting here a Nobel Prize winner, an astronaut, or an elite athlete because I didn't do that. And there's this one guy and he's sitting in the front row. Now, remember when you sit down, everyone's the same size, just about. And I'm giving my keynote, this one hour keynote, and he is voraciously writing notes. I mean, pages and pages and pages of notes. And I'm like, I know I'm good, but what is this? And he comes up to me after, and I said, oh, did you enjoy the talk? And he said, you made me feel something I haven't felt since I played in the NBA.

46:30Ruth Gotian: I had an NBA champion in the audience, and I had no idea. But you see, they're still learning. And that's why he was taking notes. He was still learning. He had long retired. isn't that wild it's incredible that is incredible yeah there sometimes you know you can hide your profession people don't always know i'm a lawyer but i feel like nba players are hard to hide but not if you're sitting that's true that's true but then you stand up you're like we are not the same when you when you think about these four keys to success which one is the most difficult for people to implement based on your research?

47:17Ruth Gotian: I think the intrinsic motivation. I think people think that whatever they were passionate about when they were 20, they need to still be passionate about when they're 40 and 50. But the passions change over time. Things that were important to us then are not important to us now. And one of the things that I have learned is that our intrinsic motivation changes when we have transitions in our lives. So let's talk about what are some of those transitions. You got a new job, a new partner, a new child, a new home, the loss of a parent, a pandemic. That's why so many people quit their jobs when the pandemic broke out.

48:00Ruth Gotian: They recalibrated what their priorities were and what they were intrinsically motivated to do. And I think so many people are stuck on those motivations they had in college to carry them through in their career. I just retired. I'm on my third career now. Right? I took an early retirement so I can do these things that I love, the keynote speaking and the coaching and the writing full time. You're allowed to change. And I want to give your listeners something that they can figure out what it is that they're passionate about right now. It's a simple three-column exercise to differentiate between what you're good at versus what you enjoy doing and what you're good at and you don't like doing or you're not good at.

48:47Ruth Gotian: So if they go on my website, ruthgotian, R-U-T-H-G-O-T-I-A-N, ruthgotian.com slash passion audit, they will be able to download that worksheet and get started on figuring out what that thing is right now. Amazing. Oh, this is great. So listeners, we will have links to that in the description of this episode. And this is really significant because we see so many people who are stuck in the past. And really what we're recognizing is that authenticity can and should look different as time goes on. And I think for a lot of people, you're giving them permission to make that shift. Because think about what we said off air beforehand when I said, yeah, this will be part of big swings only.

49:36That's my new news. And you said, well, that's not new.

49:38Ruth Gotian: You told me that over a year ago. And I recognized one of the things I was wrestling with was just saying, but I'm the negotiation guy. That's what I do. I'm the negotiation guy. But what other people have helped me to see is that negotiation is just one sliver of my identity. And really, the through line even before negotiation was this. It's the big swings mentality. Taking those big swings, making those big shifts. And one of the things that's fascinating to me when I think about people's stories is how consistent it is that a really devastating incident is the catalyst to success, right? And so with the high achievers that you see, you're seeing that too?

50:32Yeah, absolutely.

50:34Ruth Gotian: But there's some people that that devastating thing will bury them and there are others that it'll fuel them. I'm the latter. I will not let it bury me because the more you tell me something can't be done, the more I'm going to double down and get it done. And that's why I said you can either help me or get out of the way. Those are the only two options. Where does that come from? How did you develop that? You know, I think a lot of it has to do with my late grandmother. I grew up in a family of old boys. I am the only woman in four generations. And she went to pharmacy school. And there were, I have the picture, 13 women and 300 men in her class.

51:25Ruth Gotian: And I assume I never asked her that maybe she wanted to go to medical school at that time, but women just didn't go at that time. And this is what she wanted to do. So she went, even though there were 13 women and 300 men in her class. And then when she finished, she wasn't quite 21 yet because then it was a bachelor's. So she had six months before, even though she finished school until she could get her license. So she went to Europe as a single woman to go wait out the time and she traveled through Europe. So where did I get that? It is the women who came before me who did things, even though in completely different fields, that I have learned from their experiences.

52:18Ruth Gotian: And it's people like them and it's people like my aunt who became one of the first female commercial real estate people in Manhattan. the more she was told no the more she did it so i watch that and i'm not in real estate i'm not in pharmacy never will be but now i think because of them when someone tells me no all i hear is not yet so good and this is this is the power of stories but the power of sharing stories and I don't want to force anybody to do anything they don't feel comfortable doing. So I'm not going to say there's an ethical obligation, but we can see there is a true value in sharing your story because who knows?

53:08I still, I know you, I still believe you would have been successful, but who knows what that success would have looked like had you not had those avatars. And so a lot of times people share stories or they don't share their successes or their journey out of humility. They don't want to make it about them. And for me personally, what I found is I talked to other people, they've encouraged me to share more. And I recognize that what I was describing as humility for me in my experience was actually selfishness. I preferred to not be seen. I preferred to just work quietly behind the scenes. I wasn't telling the story.

53:46And then when people would meet me, they'd be surprised at the depth. And so they're like, why don't you tell more people this? And so for the person who's listening, it doesn't matter how trivial you think your story is or how trivial you think your success is. There is somebody who is looking up to you that you might not even know exists, but they're seeing you. So it's not just about your own big swings for yourself. You can think about the benefit, the beauty of sharing that, because other people seeing you do it can give them permission to take that big swing and then have the resilience to keep on swinging.

54:25Ruth Gotian: So true. And Simone, my friend, I know you've been listening patiently. What are your thoughts? Well, I want to share two things this time. One of the things is about the rules, what Ruth was talking about, understanding the real rules. and I remember I love soccer and and maybe the world cup of maybe 16 years ago or 12 years ago there was a guy a guy from Uruguay called Luis Suarez they were playing the quarterfinals the round of eight I think so they were about to lose Uruguay was about to lose and the guy from Ghana shot the ball and he was in the goal. He was in front of the goal, so he stopped the ball with his hand.

55:21So the referee gave him the red card and they then won the game. Uruguay won the game. So after that, they asked him, why did you break this rule? And he said, I didn't break any. The rule says that if I grab the ball with my hands, I have a red card. so that's what happened i grabbed the ball and i have my red card so i didn't break any rule i i if i stayed in the in the field i break the rule but i just went out so we won and i used that rule in my favor so sometimes we don't understand what the rules really are and there's a lawyer that can't explain that to us right so so the guy was smart enough to understand that the rule was that you have a red card if you hold the ball.

56:12It's not that you can't do it. So as you're willing to pay the price for doing it, then that's fine. That's what I learned. And another thing that I wanted to share with Ruth was how my intrinsic motivation changed when I was living in Argentina. I was 26 years old and I had cancer. so what happened was that I was working as a designer because I'm an industrial designer I had a flu and I went to a doctor he made a x-ray he said okay we have to see something that you have here in the thymus gland so I said okay they went through more and more exams and after three months of exams he told me okay you have cancer we have to make a surgery here and we will work on that, but no problem.

57:06Everything will be fine. And I was like, oh my God. So I was working as a designer and I said, oh my God, I hate this job. I am a designer, but I hate it. And I'm about to die. And what I'm going to do with my life, at least for the last month of my life, I will do what I want. So I quit my job and I said, okay, I'll do what I want to do and I won't design anymore in my life. well I designed a logo for Kwame last week but I said I won't design anything in my life again so I quit my job then I went to another doctor just to find uh to look for another opinion and the doctor said no you were misdiagnosed you didn't have cancer you you never you have never had cancer.

57:56So what you felt when I said I had cancer is what I felt. I felt I had cancer and to me it was real, right? So my mind changed and then I realized I didn't have anything. So I had the learning process, but I didn't have cancer. So I feel so, I felt unlucky back then, But now I feel so lucky that I learned without having the cancer. So that was what made me change. And I said, OK, I will do with my life what I want to do now that I have like I'm living my second life and I didn't have anything. That's that's exactly the moment when my motivation changed. And then I started to to work in sales and doing other things that I really liked.

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1:01:17Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. Wow. Wow. Wow. I've never heard that story. That's amazing. And so where in that story did you reach out to A &I? A little bit farther. That happened in 2017. And then I said, OK, now that I don't have cancer, I don't have a job either. Right. so I need money and I started to sell and and I was in the center oh that's a very good story for Ruth because I was in the center of Buenos Aires is our neighborhood called Onse which is the Jewish neighborhood of Buenos Aires and I said okay these guys know how to sell I need to learn from them so I went to these guys and say hey what what can I do for you they said well if if If there's a job, I'll call you.

1:02:22But then I realized that was electronic e-commerce was starting in Buenos Aires. So I said, OK, I'm going to take pictures of the things that they sell and offer without buying because I didn't have any money to buy. Right. So I started selling toys or bedsheets or towels that just taking pictures and offer them online. Then when people pay, I go buy and then send. That's what I did. and at some point i was selling too many dolls um and the guy that sold the the dolls jose luis was his name he said come come here why you're buying so many dolls i don't know i don't get it so i told him i'm just selling them through e-commerce and that's the power of asking for help because I said, yeah, I'm just, but I can't, I can't earn more money because you're selling them too expensive to me.

1:03:20And he said, but you didn't ask. Here's another, another price list. So if you're a reseller, now you have discounts. Try to sell now with this list. And now I started to make more money. That's how I started to sell carpets and towels and bed sheets and many things. And then is when I realized how important negotiation was and that that's how I found Kwame. Wow. Wow.

1:03:48Ruth Gotian: Wild. Wild. You're a hustler. Yes. In a good way. Yes. That's so impressive. That's so impressive. You don't ask, you don't get. That's what my father always taught me. That's right. That's right. And then one note about Luis Suarez as well. When you think about athletes or just great minds, high achievers, one thing that they all have is hunger. They're all hungry for success. And I always remember Suarez as the hungriest soccer player because he kept on biting opponents. Oh, you remember that, Simo? Yeah, he did. Well, former left fullback here. I played soccer. You know, one of the questions I always ask athletes is, do you love to win or hate to lose?

1:04:40Ruth Gotian: Oof.

1:04:43And with only one exception, the answer is, I hate to lose. Yes.

1:04:53Ruth Gotian: Interesting, right? Yeah. Interesting. What's your thought on that? Well, I have lots of thoughts, but I think winning is great. They celebrate the moment for sure, but they don't dwell on the moment. If you lose, you're constantly questioning, what can I do better? Because for them, a loss is data. It's data. It's not a failure. It's data. There's a big difference. So now they're going to comb through all of that data. What could I do better, a fraction of a percent better, because that will be the difference between winning and losing. So I think we all have to make that switch in our mind of if we lose, it's not failure, it's data.

1:05:44Ruth Gotian: And we have to take that to get to the next step. And also when we do succeed, we get that award, we get that bonus, we get, remember those are extrinsic motivators. That's coming from someone else. And that does not maintain your joy forever. That it's in the moment. So celebrate it, but then they work on their next goal. Oh, this is great. I want to dig into this, though, a little bit deeper because I know there's more texture here. Because there is clearly a, I don't want to say, maybe appreciation might be a little bit too much, but a respect for loss. because of the data it provides you. I think about my own life.

1:06:30I have propelled myself more from loss than through success. If I succeed, hey, I don't need to investigate. I need to celebrate. And so when it comes to the losses, now I can do a postmortem, figure this out, and use that to propel. But then at the same time, it is the utter disdain of losing that pushes them forward. So how do they balance that dichotomy within their mind where they try as hard as possible to avoid failure while at the same time having a healthy appreciation for the value of it to help them move forward?

1:07:07Ruth Gotian: Oh, they surround themselves with a team who balances them and puts everything into perspective. Look, I've met the spouses and family members or some of these people. I mean, some of these elite athletes have now become very good friends. and these are the people that have kept them grounded. It's their coaches. It's their team of mentors. It is their family. You need to create that support system for yourself of people who unconditionally love and support you and help you see the clarity. You see when they lose, they are licking their wounds for a day or two, but that's not what defines them.

1:07:49Ruth Gotian: It's not what defines them. And they quickly turn it around to see how can I do it better? And it becomes that challenge of I don't want to lose again. So let's figure this out. Let's figure it out. And that is their focus. And remember, a lot of them are also on teams. And when you have teams, you don't carry that burden all alone. You win as a team. You lose as a team. And that helps. Even if you're in an individual sport, you're part of a larger group. Critical. Right. Yeah, that's huge. And it's so funny, especially for us living in the Western world. We're very individualistic, but it's fascinating to see that those folks who we look at and admire, their individual accomplishments, none of them do it alone.

1:08:51No. No.

1:08:53Ruth Gotian: And if you try, you're not going to make it because you don't know what you don't know. Right? You don't know what you don't know. And how do you take in all of that failure? And how do you make sense of it all? Because not everything that doesn't work do you need to cry about. And I'll give you an example. When I first became a faculty member, an academic, one of the things that we do is we write academic articles about our research. And you know me, I shoot for the top, the top journals. And wouldn't you know, I was rejected. And the first step was what's called desk rejected, meaning the editor that reviews it rejects it outright.

1:09:37Ruth Gotian: Then I got to the next step where it was sent out to reviews by academic peers, and you get back with the reviews and then it was rejected. And then my former chair said to me when I was truly licking my wounds, she said, you read those reviews because that will tell you what was clear to them and what was not clear to them. Remember we talked about that gap that that astronaut had? There was that gap. She said, that is your gap. That'll tell you what the gap is. And if more than one person, there's usually three reviewers, if more than one person said the same thing, that's what you need to focus on.

1:10:13Ruth Gotian: The rest is just opinions. But if more than one person said the same thing, you need to double down on that. Again, failure is data. Now, all of a sudden, it moved me from the passenger seat to the driver's seat. Now I can do something with this. So now I have all this data. The athletes have all this data. Now they can decide what they're going to do about it. You either sit, lick your wounds and watch Netflix, or you take the data, discuss it with your coaches and figure out how to get better. Those are the two options. Brilliant. Oh my gosh. Ruth, I could talk to you forever. And I know we've had long conversations.

1:10:53This is -

1:10:54Ruth Gotian: Well, it has kept me occupied and has been my companion on my long commutes to work. We would have these long conversations. So much fun. And now we can do it on your way to Columbia. That's it. A much shorter commute. Yes. This is great. Ruth, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming back on the show. Really appreciate it. And then also let the listeners know again how they can work with you and all of the books that you have. All of the books. All of the books. The first one is a textbook. So I'm not sure anyone's interested in that. That's a textbook on medical education. The big one is the success factor.

1:11:38Ruth Gotian: That's the one on high achievement and those four elements of success with stories like that Peggy Whitson you heard and Neil Cotial, the Supreme Court lawyer, and Steve Kerr, the NBA coach, and Bob Lefkowitz, a Nobel Prize winner. And it has actionable tips that you can implement immediately about all four of those elements. And then there are two books on mentoring. One is the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring. And for those of you who work in healthcare, there's mentoring in healthcare. And now I am writing a book about overlooked high achievers, which will be out in 2027. So we'll have to come back for that.

1:12:18Ruth Gotian: And I really hope people will reach out for those keynotes and the coaching and could just reach out to me on LinkedIn or my website, ruthgotian.com. Amazing. Ruth, thank you again. really appreciate it thanks for having me