Vanessa Van Edwards: How to Turn Small Talk Into Real Connection

0:00You know Vanessa Van Edwards, right? You know the person who is known as one of the best communicators in the world. Did you know that she calls herself a recovering awkward person? And did you know that just like you and me, she has a horrendously awkward story that propelled her to be who she is today? And so I was stuck in one of those, conversational dead end, didn't know it at the time. And I knew by the time I got to the presentation, I had lost them. and afterwards I didn't hear back for a while which is never a good sign and I got a call that was they just don't feel that you have the presence to carry the show so they're gonna say no and I the crazy thing about that call is I knew they were right like it wasn't even I wasn't even mad I was like they are right like there is something I am fundamentally missing about connecting with people and a big part of the show was connecting with people like it wasn't just about the idea Today, we're focusing on the conversation about conversation, her book.

0:59I believe this is her magnum opus. When I read this book, I spent so much time getting into this. I took 30 pages of notes reading this book. Every page was like a treasure chest filled with delightful information that I used immediately after reading it. So I'm telling you, I had high stakes conversations after reading this. I said, oh, Vanessa told me I could do this. Let me do it. Boom. Conversation better. Next conversation, I tried a different thing. Boom, made it better. I'm telling you, I thought I was good at communication and I am, but this will make you better. I know because it made me better.

1:35I'm telling you, this might be the most important episode we have ever had on the podcast because the things that you will learn today will not just make your conversations better, it'll make your relationships better and it'll help you to change your life and the lives of those around you. If you don't know yourself, how could you share it? truthfully with someone else. So I had to dip into the intrapersonal bucket. The question that I would start with, and maybe we could do this together, is beginning to identify who you are so you can share it. And one of my favorite questions is, if you had to name your memoir, what would you name your memoir right now?

2:14So here's the thing that people don't talk about enough when it comes to communication and charisma. When it comes to these things, These are skills that you can learn. Vanessa was just like you and me, and now she is who she is because she took the time to learn from her mistakes and got better one conversation at a time. And in this episode, you're going to learn the secrets of the world's best communicators. You're going to learn how to connect with people. You're going to learn how to avoid those awkward silences. And it's all going to be based in science, data, and research. In this episode, you have the opportunity to learn from the best because when it comes to your big swing, I guarantee you there is going to be a constellation of conversations that will either help you get there or get in your way.

2:59This, my friends, is a story of Vanessa Van Edwards. Welcome to Big Swings Only. This episode is brought to you by Granola and Quint. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just head to granola.ai slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me.

3:39That's the best way to support the show. Listeners, here's an added bonus. This episode is very special because it is done in conjunction with the Ohio State University's Moritz College of Law, which has the number one dispute resolution program in the country. And the students that are running their new podcast are in this episode as well, asking incredible questions, and they really elevated the conversation. So please give them a shout out, support their work, because it is going to be life changing. Do you know what that is? Those are my notes on your book. 30 pages, size 12, single space.

4:20It was delicious. I did not read it. I devoured it. It was so good. So good. What was my favorite part about it, selfishly, was that it kind of put me into a state that I don't get to go into as much as I like to, especially with communication, is going into that beginner's mind where just Just every page was like, oh my gosh, something new. Oh my gosh, something new. We could incorporate this in this type of way. And it's really, really cool to see how you are even building on the impressive thought and leadership that you already have. So kudos to you on this masterpiece. Thank you. Oh my gosh.

4:55Thank you. Thank you. I've been researching this for two decades. Two decades. It was not ready. When I got my first book deal for Captivate, it wasn't ready. So I wrote a different book where I wrote Captivate, which was great. And I was like, okay, next is going to be a conversation. And then it still wasn't ready five years later. And then I wrote cues. And so it literally, I kept getting book deals and like it just, it wasn't there yet because I had to study master conversationalists. I had to find those people who had figured it out in the wild because research can only tell you so much about conversation, right?

5:31So it was like I had to pair the research with hearing these very charismatic people in the wild. What kind of phrases were they using? What kind of pacing were they using? What was their approach to a difficult conversation, a high stakes conversation, a silly conversation, a date, a negotiation? Kwame, I don't know if you noticed, but I was very purposeful. I did the most odd pairings. I had like a forgotten conversation between MLK and Linda B. Johnson, like critically, historically important. And then like Love Island.

6:09You know, like it's both conversations, both good in both places. That's brilliant. Yeah, it was it was great because you touched on every type of interaction that anybody would care about in a meaningful way. but in also a substantive way too, because you brought in research, then you brought in legitimate anecdotal evidence. And then you also, when there wasn't any research, you did your own research, which was really, really important. And also one of the things that I love that made it a lot more endearing and approachable was the fact that you describe yourself as a recovering, awkward person.

6:46And you start off the book with a really great story that had me literally laughing out loud. Can you tell us about The Steves? The Steves. Yes. So first I should say I was hiding this story for about 12 years. I was so embarrassed about this that I did not share it. I did not share it on podcast. I think just like my husband and my agent knew. So I was really embarrassed about this story until I was writing this book. and I had this realization that we all have that moment where we feel like we lost an opportunity because there wasn't connection. And this was that moment for me. Major life moment.

7:29I got offered the chance to do a TV show with a major network that you would know. I will not mention them because I am an NDA, but a major network that you would know. And this was like the opportunity of a lifetime, right? Like this was everything that I could have ever wanted. and we had worked out the show. We'd worked out the treatment. We had all the details. I had like this great like reel that was going and like, okay, we just want you to come in, meet all the execs and we'll finalize the details of the show. Great. So I had prepared and I'm a preparer, right? Like I love a good slide deck.

8:03I love bullet points and details. So of course I'd prepared quote, the perfect presentation to present to these executives, a 15 slide deck presentation on the show. And what I didn't prepare for was the few minutes of small talk before the pitch. I thought that everything was about the pitch. It just mattered once I showed them the idea. But what I didn't realize is that rapport is like a truth serum. Rapport is social lubricant. That before anyone can believe how smart you are or hear your great ideas, they have to be able to connect with you first. I did not understand that. And so I show up to the TV studio and I'm like in my head, right?

8:45I'm super anxious. I'm social overthinking. And a guy walks up, let's call him Steve, because he looked like a Steve to me. And we're walking down this hallway and I'm telling you it was the longest hallway I'd ever experienced in my life. I mean, it was like thousands of doors and I had to do this thing that I knew. I knew it was time for small talk. And so I was like, small talk. I can do small talk. And so I, how are you, Steve? Good, Vanessa. How are you? Good. How are you? You know, just like total social autopilot. And he's like, looking at me weird. And I'm like, the weather, the weather is, is so bad today.

9:27Will it, will it be better tomorrow? Now it was in LA, right? So like, you can only talk about the weather for a few seconds before it gets weird. And I just did not know what to talk about. Right. So I was like, weather, weather. And then I kind of black out. Like, I don't even know what I was talking about, but I, I knew it was not going well. Whatever happened to you where like, you're in conversation and you just know, like, you're just not clicking. And I get into the room and I'm like, okay. And like, everyone looks like Steve when I get into the room. Um, and, um, I was like, okay, I'm just going to dive into my presentation.

10:02And they're like, oh no, we just want to get to know you first. And I was like, what? And they tried. You know, they tried to get to know me. They tried to connect with me. And I was so focused on the presentation, the idea. I could not bond with them. I did not know how to get out of those, what I now call conversation dead ends. A conversation dead end is when someone asks you a question that is fact-based. Where are you from? Where do you live? Got any kids? You married? What do you do? They're very socially scripted one-word answers. And someone is trying very hard to get to know you, but those are very hard to jump off of.

10:40And so you end up having this weird back and forth where you don't actually feel connected. You're just learning facts. And so I was stuck in one of those, conversational dead ends, didn't know it at the time. And I knew by the time I got to the presentation, I had lost them. and afterwards I didn't hear back for a while which is never a good sign and I got a call that was they just don't feel that you have the presence to carry the show so they're gonna say no and I the crazy thing about that call is I knew they were right like it wasn't even I wasn't even mad I was like they are right like there is something I am fundamentally missing about connecting with people and a big part of the show was connecting with people like it wasn't just about the idea.

11:23And that was the start of really trying to understand what makes a good conversation. How do we feel connected? How do we escape those conversational dead ends? And that was the story. I was sweating while I was writing it. That's my opening story, as you know. I was like,

11:41I could feel the anxiety. It's horrible. I'm so glad it made you laugh, though. Yes, it did. It did. And I'm so glad we can laugh at it now. Because the thing is, you have taken that and turned it into something that propelled you into who you are today, which is fascinating. Because the thing is, a lot of people, they speak in terms of absolute identity, where they say, I am awkward. I don't like these interactions, things like that. And it's the, you know, we have to think in terms of the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset. But when it comes to human interaction, the way we communicate with each other, for some reason, people can have a growth mindset in so many other things in their life, but a fixed mindset and blind to the fixed mindset when it comes to the way that they interact with people.

12:29I'm wondering for you as a fellow behavioral nerd when it comes to this. Totally. Love a nerd. Yeah. What is it that helps people, that causes people to be so growth oriented in so many areas of their life, but completely blind to the fact that this is a skill that they can develop? Okay. So I firmly believe there are facts and there are frames. and there are people who see the facts of their life, the facts of who they are, the facts of a situation, and they leave it at that, right? They're, you know, I'm an introvert. I'm good with people. I am a lawyer and I'm organized, right? Like they see those as facts.

13:12I think that there are another group of people who see frames of those facts and the research shows that there are kind of two different frames. There are people with redemption frames and there are people with contamination frames. People with redemption frames are always growth. So no matter what the fact is, they're always thinking it might take some hard work. It might take some grit. It might take some resilience, but I will overcome. People with contamination frames are very fixed. They feel that no matter their hard work, no matter how much they try or how much grit or resilience they have, they won't overcome.

13:50They typically feel more, they take a more passive role in their life. So the facts are happening to them as opposed to them writing their own facts. So in my research, this actually leaks out in conversation. People with redemption mindsets, redemption frames, they give you what I call narrative hints. These are hints about how they see themselves. And I am always listening for these hints. So it sounds like this, you know, I'm just, I'm always, always the one behind. Oh my gosh. You know, I'm, I'm, I just feel so lucky. I'm so lucky, right? Like lucky, feeling like you're seeing opportunities that tends to be more redemption narrative hints versus superlatives like always and never tend to be fixed mindsets.

14:37I don't want to judge anyone for having either of these because actually your own history determines what kind of frame you have. And that's, we need to respect that. What's really important though is people at least are become aware of the frame that they have, that they are actually, their self narratives are self creating. I believe the story you tell yourself about yourself creates your story. And the research shows this as well, that if you see yourself as very lucky, you literally see the world differently. So in conversation, lucky people, they listen differently. They're literally always listening for growth.

15:14They're listening for learning tidbits. They're listening for things that they could change or aha moments. They literally listen to their person differently. They also ask very different questions. When you take someone with a redemption narrative, a really redemption frame, the types of questions they ask are so different than fixed folks. Fixed folks tend to focus more on facts, right? Like they want the chronology of your life, not the interpretation of your life. So your fixed folks, they're going to ask more fact-based questions. They're listening to know as opposed to listening to connect.

15:47Those are very different experiences if you're in a conversation with them, right? If you're talking to someone who has a redemption or growth mindset, you're probably learning together. You're probably having mutual aha moments. You might even craft more inside jokes. I've noticed anecdotally that people with growth mindsets, they tend to have a lot more inside lingo, inside lingo, inside lexicon. Whereas people with fixed mindsets, they want to get it right. They're very focused on getting it right. And so they are the ones who will Google fact check you when you're talking. They're the ones who are trying to understand the facts that they don't feel as scared.

16:31And the last thing I was say about this is I think all of this comes from a fear place. You know, the reason why sometimes people have a contamination frame is because they've been hurt. They're really afraid of that happening again. And so their way of protecting themselves in conversation is be in the know. Know all the things. Like if I understand everything about this person, I'll be okay, and I won't be surprised. Where someone with a redemption frame, they're afraid to, they're often afraid of not feeling liked. They're a little bit more focused on being liked. And so they're trying to connect and build inside jokes because they really want to be liked.

17:13They really want to feel like they belong. Neither are right or wrong, but man, your conversations are going to be very different. That was a very long answer. Sorry. Oh, this is exactly what I want to hear. You have redemption. You have redemption. You're a redemption friend, right? That's true. For sure. For sure. But it's also learned. And I think this is one of the many parts of the book that can be so inspiring when people understand the depth of it. Because again, that's an element that can be learned. What I always say is that you are the author of your own life. And your job is to write the best story you can, but also recognize that your story is going to have a co-author named fate who will jump in and write something down and then bounce you have this and you say okay well my job is to write a better story and so the hero was down and now that was the best thing ever because there we go and it becomes this this never-ending game and speaking to the what you talk about luck for me i think about luck as both a skill and a strategy but the skill is seeing it there was this study and i'm going to mess up the numbers but you'll understand the spirit of the study.

18:22There was a study where they had two people, like two groups of people, people who self-identified as lucky and people who self-identified as unlucky. And then they gave them a newspaper and their goal was, the task was to count how many images are in the newspaper. And so when they looked at the average time, the lucky people, well, the unlucky people, it took them about five minutes or so to count all of the images, but the lucky people, it took them about 15 seconds or something like that. And it was because they see it differently. So on the second page, there was a big, bold box that said, stop counting.

18:58There are 50 images in this newspaper. And the lucky people see it, the unlucky people don't. And once you recognize that, like you said, it's a frame that you can shift with intentionality, then your whole life changes because you start to see the world differently. I also think self-authorship is a concept like, you know, social media calls it main character energy, which I also love, right? And so let's talk about some very practical tools you can use here. So this is a very deep concept, right? Redemptive versus contamination narratives. Some very practical tools is in conversation with people, asking questions like, are you lucky?

19:39Do you feel lucky? Right? You can do this when they have a new project, they're going to Vegas, right? Like it's actually a question that can come up organically if you're listening for opportunities to use it. Someone's answer to that question is going to tell you a lot about that person, right? So, oh yes, I am so lucky. Okay. You know that they're probably optimistic. They probably have a redemptive narrative. They are going to see different opportunities and they're probably more growth mindset. If someone hesitates, ooh, am I lucky? Am I lucky? They're probably in a pivotal moment of their life where they are assessing their life choices.

20:15This is anecdotal. But if someone is like, they're really thinking about this, and I've asked this question to thousands of people, they're really thinking about it. They have not decided yet. And then they got to meet you, right? And you get to maybe, just maybe, guide them to self-authorship. And the way that we get to self-authorship, knowing that you're the author of your own story through conversation. That's how we get there, is talking to someone else and asking and answering questions about, am I driving my life? Okay, maybe I can't control the facts that always happen to me. Maybe I can't control if I get a raise or if I get a promotion.

20:51And I mentioned earlier, I didn't get into the school of my dreams. I couldn't control that. I did the best I could, but I couldn't control it. But how I interpret it mattered, right? How I interpreted it then and how I interpret it now. So conversation is how we guide someone to decide it doesn't matter the facts. It matters your frame and how you see it. And then of course, if they say, no, my gosh, I've been so unlucky recently. Then you also have opportunity to explore why. And so I think that's a really practical question. Another one is whenever anything happens to someone, like a fact, something bad happens, is asking someone, how do you interpret that?

21:29Does that change your perspective on life? Does it change your theme? You can literally ask someone how they interpret the facts of their own life. And it's very helpful because it's allowing them to step back. Like that question is a gift because you're basically asking them to just take a quick step back from the own fact of their life and give it a reevaluation. So I like using different techniques in conversation to actually help enable someone's self-authorship. Amazing. And I've got great news. We've got our first student question. Sydney has a question. Awesome. Please come to the stage.

22:02Ask your question. Yes. So I love what you said when you were kind of explaining the difference between people who have more so growth mindsets versus fixed mindsets. But I was wondering if you think that the environment that a person is in kind of or could influence which mindset they have, because I know personally for me, I feel like in professional development settings, when I get to speak to professionals who are maybe working in career paths that I'm interested in, I approach those types of conversations with more so of a growth mindset. but when I'm in the classroom and you know we're we're speaking on a topic maybe I have more so of a fixed mindset kind of being a lot more reserved like when wanting to speak up or offer my opinion so can you speak to if in your experience or your research whether the environment that you're in can also impact the mindset that you have I actually think this is a great comparison we're talking about, it's actually not growth or fixed mindset.

23:04What you're talking about is actually your communication style. So growth and fixed mindset is internal, right? It's how you're interpreting facts. And that can be a little bit different, but still learning is learning, right? If you're in a classroom, you're still learning. But actually, I think what you're talking about is a communication style, which is if you're in a collaborative setting, right? You're with friends, you're in a study group, you're in a collaborative brainstorm session with colleagues. That is an external communication style. You're verbalizing. Extroverts tend to thrive in those settings.

23:34Introverts tend to struggle in those settings simply because introverts usually need more time to internally process before they share, whereas extroverts tend to verbalize out loud and figure it out as they're verbalizing, just very different approaches. In a classroom setting, you're being given information by a teacher or a TA or someone who's up front. And so you have to, out of respect, have a more introverted communication style. I wouldn't even say introverted, to have a listening communication style because you're absorbing. I think that is good. That is really good. We want to be able to adapt our communication style to the environment we're in.

24:12Actually, that's a micro social skill. Very charismatic people are doing exactly what you just asked about. They're like, oh, wow, I'm in a peer setting. Great. I'm going to raise my hand first. I'm going to take the ball. I'm going to lead everyone in an icebreaker. I'm going to go through our agenda. That's a micro social skill to know when to step up with their communication style versus, whoa, I'm in a learning setting and I'm the person who knows the least amount in this room. So I want to learn from everyone else in this room and I'm going to actually go into listening mode. I'm going to go into absorbing mode.

24:47That is such a skill, like that flexibility and communication style. I think that flexibility, social flexibility is such an under talked about micro skill. Um, and it is incredibly useful in conversation because your conversation with your boss is going to look different than a peer. Your conversation with a teacher or professor is going to look different than on a podcast. My conversations right now, like if Kwame and I were having lunch together, it would not be this, right? When we had dinner together a few weeks ago, it was not this, right right and so I I know that I'm expected in an interview to speak longer I would never normally speak this long in my conversational turn at dinner right but I know that this is the setting that we're in so I think that being flexible is actually a great thing so your question implies something great which is that you already observed that you need to have flexible social skills and that works yeah that's great brilliant and Sydney let me ask you a follow-up question here.

25:45So when you were asking the question, are you thinking about it kind of in a similar vein to code switching? That is a really good question. No, because I don't think that I'm, I think it's more so what resonated more so with me was the aspect of like fear, the idea that like people with certain mindsets have been hurt in certain settings. And so I'm like, I wonder if there's something that happened when I was in a classroom setting, whether I gave the wrong answer or the professor's response or facial expression made me feel a type of way to where I felt like I have to kind of more so center my thoughts and my ideas before I express them in the classroom, opposed to when I'm in environments of professional development, where usually those professionals, because I am a student, are so open to pouring into me and sharing their experience, so I feel more comfortable just being able to, you know, throw out my ideas to them because I I feel like it might be a safer space to land.

26:45So whereas code switching, I think, is more so like an internal overthinking in every environment. Like, do I have to show up a certain way? Yes. Oh, this is delicious. Vanessa, you want to take a shot? No, Kwame, it's so amazing that you just mentioned code switching because it's on my list to do a deep dive on it. Because I don't mention code switching in the book, but I think it's a really important topic. Can you share your opinion on this? Because I think there is so much here. And also, maybe I'll bring you on my channel to talk about it. But yes, let's do it. Okay. So, so Sydney, let me tell you this to code switching when used improperly can be overthinking, but when used properly, it is a properly and authentically, it is a superpower.

27:27So code switching technically falls under cultural intelligence, what in cultural intelligence, we would call mimicry. So you have to have an authentic version of yourself within every environment in order to code switch effectively. So the way that you talk to your parents or grandparents is going to be naturally different than the way that you talk to your friends. You're not overthinking. You just understand how the cultural nuances in order to shift appropriately based on that situation. Code switching gets out of whack when you don't have an authentic version of yourself within that environment.

27:58So you feel as though you're acting inauthentic. And so the key is twofold, internal and external. So internally, it's to spend more time in those uncomfortable environments. So you can find the natural, authentic version of yourself within that new environment. And then externally, it brings in a more DEI related question as it relates to inclusion, whether or not we're creating spaces where people who are different feel that they can be themselves, whether or not they feel authentic in that environment. So that's one thing. And then And the other thing, too, just kudos to you for having the self-awareness of processing law school trauma in real time, because it took me about a decade to figure out what was happening.

28:38Because I will this is a professor I love dearly. I won't name the name, but he said something interesting. I think this was after school. He said. Have you ever walked out of a meeting feeling really good about it? And then 10 minutes later, someone's messaging you saying something like, wait, what did we actually decide in that meeting? That gap between what happened and what anyone remembers is exactly what Granola AI closes. Honestly, the first time I looked back at my notes afterwards, I didn't expect them to be that clean. It was more organized than anything I'd ever written myself, and I hadn't done any extra work to get there.

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29:47You can try it totally free for three months. Just head to granola.ai. slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. The first thing that I ever got from Quince was this pair of really nice formal pants, but they were stretchy and made for travel. So for me as a lawyer and businessman, as I travel and I do these keynotes all over the world, it's really nice to be able to know that I could wear something that looks good in the airport, that's comfortable on the airplane, and I could wear comfortably if I have to roll into a meeting or an event right after getting off the plane, and it was only$60.

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31:02They carry that same quality into bedding, bath, kitchen essentials, and furniture, all designed with the same care. I use Quince and so should you. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. He said, you know, sometimes when we cold call on students and then they give an answer that's wrong, they would say, oh, interesting.

31:37And he's like, listen, I don't find anything interesting about being wrong. If you're wrong, you're wrong. I think everybody has a little bit of law school trauma because the thing is, there is a social penalty of being wrong publicly on all levels. If we are wrong, the professor might call us out. We might feel silly in front of our classmates. When we take the bar exam, if we fail, then that's a public failure. We don't even get the benefit or the dignity to fail in private for the most important test of our life. And so there is a gun shyness that comes from being in this environment that works well for being in a legal type of environment.

32:21But outside, it can make us really hesitant to connect and be ourselves. So it's really good that you're recognizing that distinction. And the key is to recognize that this is a very unique environment that you're in. There will never again be an environment just like this. So be aware of it, but don't let it dim your glow and stifle your ability to connect with other people. Okay, so we have to dive into this further. I think there is an underlying physiological mechanism that is happening that can cause you to feel that you have to code switch. And I think it's helpful to understand our physiology because then you're like, oh, there was an innate reaction happening with my chemistry.

33:05street. For example, one study did something really cruel to their participants, which is they brought people into their lab and they had someone in the room flash them a cue of social rejection. A cue of social rejection could be a, it could be an eye roll. It could be like a dismissive scoff or nod. So they had them flash the unsuspecting participant, this social rejection cue. And then they measured what happened to the participant. The participant, before they even really consciously realized they got a social rejection cue, their field of vision, their pupils dilated, their field of vision increased.

33:45Meaning the moment they saw that, received that social rejection cue, their eyes dilated so they could take in more of their environment. Who else is sending me a cue of social rejection or what's my escape route? So their body went into a responsive mode already. That's going to have all kinds of ripple effects physiologically. So if you walk into a room where you feel your professor or you feel your boss give you any kind of negative cue, maybe not even social rejection, maybe dismissal or they're tired and you interpret that as a cue of social rejection, your body is reacting before your mind even does.

34:24And then all of a sudden, you feel uneasy. You're like, wow, I feel like, whew. You start to kind of feel out of breath. Maybe your hands start to sweat a little bit. You get that uneasy, nervous feeling. Maybe you have a little bit more cortisol. We don't want cortisol when we're performing, especially when we're about to answer a question or do a presentation, right? That gives us dry mouth. It slows down our thinking. It makes our endurance less. And then we start really overthinking, right? So there's two things here to think about, which is noticing the cues that are being sent to us and being able to label them is quite empowering because it gives you the choice on how you want to reply, how you want to respond.

35:05That study fascinated me when I read that study. I went, wow, there are so many things being sent to us that can affect us. Even if our mind is right, even if we are super prepared, it is affecting our physiology. And then my second question was, what do we do about it? I can't control if Joe Schmo sends me a microaggression or doesn't like me, but I can't let it affect my performance. If I'm about to go present or I need to go do something. So that got me thinking, okay, well, how do we control this? So that led me to a set of studies by Dr. Matthew Lieberman at UCLA, who studied how we interpret emotional signals.

35:44And what he found is a very elegant experiment where he put people into an fMRI and he flashed them fear micro-expression. Now, fear micro-expressions, we widen our eyes so the whites of our upper whites of our eyes show. Our eyebrows go up, we, we should be like taking a deep breath. That is a universal sign of fear. If you see someone on the subway make that face, you get nervous, right? You're like, what's going on? What's happening? So he flashed this fear expression at people and he saw they caught the fear. Their amygdala lit up with fear, even when he did it with under a second. So an extremely quick flash.

36:18The brain caught the fear. Then he taught them what the fear expression looked like and said to say out loud fear, to label the emotion very clearly. When they labeled it, the activation stopped. So the act of labeling cues, of saying, I see that. I see the fear. I see the social rejection. That is very empowering for the brain. It almost takes back that physiological response. Like it deactivated the amygdala. And then I think it gives you choice. So I think a lot of my work is giving people the tools to label clearly, right? You cannot control the cues that are being sent to you, but you can hear a narrative hint and be like, ah, contamination narrative, right?

37:02I don't want that to affect me, but I can help them try to self-author it. Or that was a fear micro-expression or a scorn micro-expression or a lower lid flex. And then saying, I know how I want to reply to that. So I think that it's so great that you're already thinking about how your reaction was. And I think that by labeling the different conversational cues or the blueprint, it helped put you back in that self-authorship, right? Control. Like we're in control of our responses. Kwame, do you... Brilliant. When you see like a negative cue, do you ignore it? Like, are you very good at ignoring it?

37:37No, I'm not good at ignoring it. I can't. I've trained myself to be very perceptive. But one thing I'm learning is the we might have the ability to pick up on the cue, but we don't have the ability to mean read minds and understand where the cue has come from. And so the thing that I'm telling myself all the time is that it is not about you. Kwame, it's most likely not about you. Right. Because we can understand the external manifestation of what is inside, but we don't know where it came from. They might have just remembered something bad. Think about everybody has those social traumas where you remember something awkward you said like 12 years ago and you're like, maybe that's what it was.

38:16I don't know what it was. And so I'll pay attention to pattern. So, okay, I'm going to note that. But most likely it's not about me. Statistically speaking, it's not about me. That's a frame. Yes. You created a frame for yourself, which is, it's not about me, right? It's not about me. That's a great growth mindset frame. That is a rule for yourself to like separate yourself from that thing. And, and by the way, it could be about anything. It could be anything. For example, I was doing an interview with someone and they were making very odd nonverbal, negative nonverbals. And I was like, her, her answers were so great.

38:51and her resume was so great. And I was like, what is going on here? And so I, I did a second interview because I was like, I like what was going on. And I said to her in the second interview, you know, this is so great. It was so great. Second interview was like, like, this is exactly who I thought I was getting with that, with the resume. I said, you know, were you really nervous for, for the first interview? Because I noticed she knows my job, right? So I said, I noticed you were making all kinds of negative nonverbals. And she said, you know, I borrowed my roommate's heels and I, and they hurt so bad and there were blisters all over my feet.

39:22And I think that I was like uncomfortable, like physically uncomfortable. She's like, every time I moved my foot, I was like, Ooh, I was like, this is it. Right? Like here I am thinking like, he doesn't like me or is she lying? No, her heels just didn't fit. So I, I should, I think about that all the time. Cause I'm like, it could be the heels. You don't know. It could be the heels. you do not know. This is so great. I think one of the hidden keys to charisma is comfort, comfortability, giving yourself permission to be as comfortable as you can in the location, while still being respectful to everybody else.

39:58You're not going to show up to a job interview like, hey, guys, what's up? You know, like, that's a little bit excessive. But being respectful to the environment, but also recognizing what makes your body feel comfortable. Right. So, for example, Vanessa, you saw me speak. And so I recognize when I speak, I like to always have a podium, not to stand behind it, but to lean on it. I'm really comfortable when I lean. And it also gives other people, the person listening, more permission to be comfortable too. He might be talking about a heavy topic, but he's comfortable so I can be comfortable. And if you're physically uncomfortable, that's a distraction that takes away from your ability to be present with the other person.

40:37I noted that podium at global leadership summit. They ask you, what do you want on stage? And you could have literally anything you want on there. Like, I think that if I had said, I want a ball pit on stage, they probably would have gotten me a ball pit, right? Like they are so kind. They would have gotten me whatever I wanted. And I was, so I had nothing on stage with me. I had like a little table with a gift on it. Cause I was giving the audience a gift, but I was like, ah, like that is a great use of a podium because I'm sure you know this, but so the comfort, like your comfort absolutely added an element of ease, right?

41:11You were, you were giving competent ease, which is like our favorite, right? We love someone who is so comfortable with their own knowledge that they can relax. This is like contagious. Cause we're like, if you're comfortable up there telling me what you're really good at, then I can be, I can know that you're doing a really great job. You know, your stuff. But the second thing it did is it put you into more winner body language. So when you're speaking or on stage, right, I have what I would call like the strike zone, right? Like I have some space between my arms and my torso and my shoulders down and relaxed, but I couldn't really claim space like with my arms outspread, right?

41:54Like that would be too much. But if I had a podium next to me and I could put my arm up like this and lean, all of a sudden I am taking up way more physical space. I have way more exposure to my torso. I have way more exposure to my arms. That subconsciously is a signal of, I feel so confident. I feel pride. I don't feel worried for my physical safety that I can literally expose, but I can like have more space. And so I thought to myself, when I saw you do it, I was like, oh, what an elegant way to look like a winner. Oh, thank you. I'm going to steal it. I'm going to steal it. I'm like, I'm going to ask for a podium and then not use it.

42:33I'm just going to lean on it. That's it. Amazing. Amazing. So thank you. This is something I will cherish forever. So thank you for that. Another thing, I want to ask you about level three communication, because I'm wondering the, I know you're a person with high degrees of intentionality. It was very interesting to me because there was, it was very skills heavy in the beginning and focused on the art of connection, the science and everything. And then tell me if I'm wrong on this. It seemed like with level three, that's where you get into life changing type of territory, where you gave people the tools to, without being too invasive, give help other people to have the gift of rewriting and renegotiating their own self narrative, but also the tools to renegotiate their own self narrative with kind metacognition.

43:26So was that something that can you tell us about level three in general? and the self-narrative part, because I think that's really, really deep. Thank you. That was my goal with Level 3, but I was walking a fine line between interpersonal and intrapersonal, right? When we talk about conversation, we think of it as an interpersonal skill, right? You can't have a conversation with yourself, not really. Yes, you can talk mentally, but really conversation is an interpersonal skill. You need someone else to do it. And so it was very challenging because like conversation comes in three levels. We have level one, which is about putting people at ease level two, which is about connecting deeply level three is about creating meaning.

44:05So here I am in level three talking about creating ultimate meaning with others, but it's also a very personal journey, right? To be able to go deep with someone, you have to know yourself. So which comes first knowing yourself, but you cannot share who you truly are authentically. And you mentioned something earlier about code switching. You said, you know, if you don't know who you are, you know, you can't be authentic. Okay. And that's true. If you don't know yourself, how could you share it truthfully with someone else? So I had to dip into the intrapersonal bucket, which I also love. I don't talk about it a lot in my work, but I got to do it in level three.

44:42And I also thought to myself, if you've made it through 90 pages of my book, we're there, you know, like we're there. And so the question that I would start with, and maybe we could do this together, is beginning to identify who you are so you can share it. And one of my favorite questions is, if you had to name your memoir, what would you name your memoir right now? Now, I've asked this question. I'm going to make you answer it, Kwame, so deep think about it. Now, I've asked this question to many people, and you cannot say an answer that's not allowed is a work in progress or any version of that.

45:23That doesn't count. So I want you to just think for a second, what would you name your memoir? Another alternate for this that I do with younger folks is, um, because they don't have as much life, you know, is, uh, what would be your life theme song right now? What song? So that's another way that we can look at this. And then, and I'm giving you some time to just think about it. And then what we can do is, and if you're willing to take out a pen and paper and do this with me, write the name of your memoir at the top of your paper or your document. And then if you had to outline your life in chapters, what would those chapters be?

46:07And I would challenge you to not just think about chronological chapters. Yes, we can do, you know, zero to five, the baby years, the teen years, the tween years, high school, college, law school, but actually more learning chapters. Like, what did you learn as a tween? You know, what was your takeaway in law school or in law school? What are you learning in that chapter? And then what were the pivotal chapter change moments? Yes, they can often be graduation or moving, but oftentimes they're not. They're an aha moment or meeting a mentor. Or I've had books chapter change for me. I've had podcasts chapter change for me.

46:54Like I've literally listened to a podcast. I listened to one podcast about high conflict people. And all of a sudden someone in my life made a lot of sense to me. And it was a chapter change. It was a full on chapter change where I was like, oh my, oh my gosh. So was there like a podcast or a book or a home? And just start to brainstorm, like dream strong with me on that. That exercise is very intrapersonal, right? Like, and I want to hear yours in a second. But if you know that it informs your conversations in a beautiful way, because then you know what chapter you're in. Maybe you've just had a major chapter change.

47:35So next time someone says to you, how are you really? How are you doing? Instead of saying, oh, good, busy, you know, you're three of law school, very fact, you can say, you know, it's been a crazy time. I just had a major pivotal moment for myself last week. And then you're beginning to share a story, something that's way deeper than I'm in my third year of law school. So I think that this intra-personal exercise, it changes your conversations. It's like a portal. It gets you ready for when you're with someone who feels safe. And you would not do that with level one people, right? If a student you barely know walks up and they're like, how are you?

48:20And you're like, well, let me just tell you about my pivotal life moment that I just had. No, it's too much, right? But if a level three person asks you deeply and you have the time and the space and you're there with them, you have an opportunity that you wouldn't have had if you hadn't done the interpersonal work. So with that, I ask you, Kwame, what would the name of your memoir be? Oh, this is so good. Just students, I hope you paid attention. She is a master at her craft. You notice how she didn't just drop the bomb and then peace out and let me sit there awkwardly. She gave me a little bit of runtime to think that was very generous.

48:56So thank you. So take note of that. So I think the title I came up with is the humble winner. And so here's why I think it's, it could be pretty narcissistic to call yourself humble. But so I need to clarify what I mean when I say, yeah, it's a skill. Humility to me is a skill. I don't think about humility as a virtue. So the way that I define humility, it's through self-awareness and accuracy. What is accurate? what is inaccurate. So it allows me to say, oh, I'm good at public speaking. I can say that. I know a lot about negotiation. I can say that. And I can say that with humility because I know I've put in the work to earn that title.

49:39Now saying, I am the best in the world. Now that's arrogance. Now that is inaccurate because there's no way to substantiate that, right? So humility to me is the self-awareness to recognize what is and isn't with accuracy. So if you are really good at something and then you say you're not, that's not humility. That's just a lie. That's inaccurate. And then for me, winner, notice I didn't say champion because champion is a moniker given to somebody externally from something else. For me, winner is an identity, winning on my terms though, things that are completely controlled by me. So it's more of a stoic perspective on winning.

50:18So I say winning isn't something I do. A winner is what I am. So what does a winner do in this situation, in these circumstances? So for me, blending those two things together, I could say, okay, speaking with accuracy, this is a skill that I have simply not developed. I performed poorly at whatever this thing is, but I am a winner. And what would a winner do with that information? A winner would then go into the cave, dedicate a lot of time to get to a high degree of proficiency on that thing. That's what a winner does. Now, when I exit the cave and I perform, I might not win externally, but I can win internally because I knew that I performed the best that I could with the skills that I had.

50:59Take that information, filter it through the humble accuracy, and figure out what I need to do to continue to win on my terms. So that would be my life memoir. And what chapter are you in now? I didn't give you much time for the exercise. Do you have an inkling? Like, was Global Leadership Summit a chapter change for you? Yes, it was a coming out party. That was my biggest event. I felt that for you, by the way. You did? Yeah, I did. I felt that for you. Like, it was like a real, like, celebration. Like, you on stage, I just felt like, so I was wondering, I was like, oh, I wonder if this is a chapter change for him.

51:36So kind of, it was a little bit. Oh, for sure. for sure because again 7 000 in person up to 400 000 online i mean that was that was massive and it was the first time ever speaking ever because i've again i'm a recovering people pleaser that's what got me into this but then i also had just horrendous stage fright so students when i was in law school i was afraid to get cold called i was afraid to answer questions and then i i again changed the narrative i said okay the way that i i look at fear is that i don't run from fear i don't fight fear, I hunt fear. So when there is a feeling of fear, when I feel the cortisol rise, when I feel the limbic system start to flare, I say, okay, cool, that's fear.

52:20Got to attack it. The very thing that I was afraid of, I've got to do it. So in law school, whenever I felt nervous, that's when I answered questions. Hey, anybody want to speak? I feel that nerve. Okay, boom, got to do it. And so for me, when I was on stage at GLS, it was the first time in my life I felt no fear, no nerves. I just said, I have a gift. I am excited to share it. There's so many people here. I get to share it with everybody. This is exciting. You all should be excited too. I cannot wait to share this with you. New era then. You were in like a part change. I mean, to go from I'm nervous speaking.

52:55I don't know if I can do that on stage to I got this. I love being on stage. I can own my material and deliver it. That's a part change. That's like a speaking era. That means you're going into a speaking era because you've unlocked it. And that's really important that you have unlocked this new superpower that is now no longer holding you back. And now it's just like, get me on stage. That's it. I mean, that's how I feel. I'm like, get you on more stages. That's it. Is that the goal for this part? Like, can we get you on more stages? Because if you have that unlock, you should be on more stages.

53:35Thank you. Yes, that is the goal. And I told my team, I said, hey, this is going to be a busy season and it's going to be uncomfortable managing all of this just temporally. Like there's a lot to do in a short period of time. But I said the momentum doesn't stay with you forever. So I want to make sure that while I've got it, let's let's go. Let's go. Let's go. So, yeah, you're you're reading it 100%, right? Oh, my gosh. Well, let me know how I can help with that. Thank you. Corporate speaking is its own world. Now, it's interesting because we're not in a real conversation, right? I'm in an interview.

54:10So I would, if I were in a normal conversation with you, just to like meta take a step back, I would be, I'm an aggressive dream hunter. So I would be like, let's make a speaking business plan for you. I would be like, let's go. Like, what's your real? Like, you got to have testimonials. Here's how we leverage GLS. That's what I would do if I were in real conversation with you. But awkwardly, we're not in real conversation. Interviews are actually very unnatural, I think. They're not my favorite because I just want to talk to you about that, right? So now I have to be weird. One, I can't go down that path with you and dreamstorm and help you talk about your speaking career.

54:49Second is it's weird for me to be like, well, here's my answer. I wouldn't do that. So instead, I wait for the next question. So it's just, I just am meta calling out that there are these hidden rules that happen in conversation and actually interviews are not one of them. So there's two things that are happening right now, just trends wise, I've noticed. One is that we are talking more than ever to AI. So conversations used to be either usually in person, right, for a long time. then okay video and that was close to reality but not quite because like I have people on the call right now who are on mute this is not very natural right like I can see your lovely faces and I cannot talk to you that is very non-natural that is very weird like I can see right like if you're laughing I can't laugh with you I can't hear it right so um that is that is one weird thing then we now are doing a lot of conversations by a voice note, that's weird.

55:51Wow. You know, I'm talking to my best friends all the time over voice note. That is wonderful because they live across the country, but also very odd because I will take a nine-minute speaking turn, right? Like I'll record my poor friend a nine-minute voice note, and then she records me a nine-minute voice note, and I can't reply to every little piece, right? So that's changing our muscle in our brain of how we speak and how we share. And then lastly, we're talking to AI a lot. Not everyone. But when I was sitting next to my husband while he was talking to his AI, he's a programmer, so he was developing, and he was like, do it better.

56:33No, that's wrong. Do it better. And, and, and then, you know, I asked him a question and he turns to me and I'm like, don't tell me to do it better. You know, because he had been talking for 20 minutes to his AI thing. I was going to say person, his AI thing in a very like not warm, not congenial, no good tone way. And then he has to turn and talk to me and code switch kind of. Yeah. And so I think it's training these muscles. And the same is the last piece of it is we're also listening to a lot of conversation. We're listening more than ever to podcasts. Like podcasts are, most of us are listening while we walk, while we wash dishes, while I cook, but actually an interview is not a conversation.

57:26It's not really right. Like even the most conversational podcasts are not real conversations. They are interviews. And so it also is like, We're listening to something that is not a real true connective back and forth. It's public, right? Like, you know, someone's on, they are performing, right? They are performing, whether or not they would admit it or not. And they're taking turns in a very different way and they're not going as deep. So I think all of this has atrophied our conversational muscles. It's one of the reasons I rushed to get this book out. When the research was ready, I asked my publisher to move it up.

57:59Yeah, I was wondering about the timeline of it, too, because it seems like we are rushing to a crisis of communication and there is not enough moving in the opposite direction to recalibrate. And for me, again, this is the most important book at the most important time because we have to address this with urgency. When you think about it with the plastic nature of the brain, the more often we see these reps of, okay, I'm going to have these long monologues on voice notes, which I do too. I do it for Vanessa. As you know, I'm a note taker. I'm a note taker. So I do a lot of metacognitive journaling.

58:37So my journal is just dictation. So when you see my notes, I guarantee you there will be some odd typos. I apologize in advance. And so sometimes when I am in that flow state after like a really significant event like GLS, I'll just go for a walk and just talk out my thoughts for 40 minutes straight. And I've recognized and I remember it really hit me in your when you shared the research about turn taking in conversations. Anything more than 40 seconds in a real conversation feels like a monologue. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I've been torturing my wife. Whitney has been calling that out for a long time.

59:17And I said, you know, it's funny because I said, you never used to say that before. Yeah, because your brain shifted. The neuroplasticity has created this new groove where now I'm used to speaking like this. Even when I'm on interviews, people want me to talk for longer. So we have to be able to be mindful of code switching appropriately based on the context, but also just constantly remembering what it takes to truly connect because, you know, the science of people says there is part art, part science here. And once you understand that, you can affect your conversations much better. And also setting up purposeful conversations for this.

59:54You know, I end the book with a challenge to do a cornerstone conversation, which are these foundational conversations to have with the important people in your life. That could be work people, that could be personal, that could be romantic, your partner, that if we craft time, we're like, okay, we're going to go on three dates and we're going to do three of the power questions for each date, or we're going to do one level for each date, or you open your work bestie Slack channel and you're like, hey, I just heard this podcast or I just read this book. Can I do an icebreaker every Monday? Would everyone be open to it for a couple of weeks?

1:00:28Or you're going to open up your group text to your friends and say, hey, can we send some voice notes back on these questions that I heard? If we're purposeful with it, it's like going to the gym. I think we think about doing body maintenance. We go, we lift, we do our biceps, we do our back, we do our legs. I think we need to start thinking about social reps, like social fitness, that we need to actually purposely think about, wow, I got to flex some of these muscles. I haven't had a deep conversation. This happens a lot. I've been married for almost 20 years, married for 12, together with my husband for 20 years.

1:01:03You get into logistics. All you're talking about is the kids. And so we have to be like, wow, I'm going to be intentional about this conversation. So a challenge I would give is do the memoir exercise, the title of your memoir and your chapters with one person in your life who matters to you, a best friend, a parent. How interesting would this be to talk to your parent about this and give them the space? We never do that with our parents. Now, especially with my parents, it's like a quick check-in, you know, how's your back?

1:01:39And so I would just encourage you to do a purposeful conversation or cornerstone conversation with one important person in your life. Perfect. Ooh, we have another question. Let's go ahead, get the student in. Awesome. I think the topic of conversation is really cool. So actually before law school, I used to be, I used to work for a nonprofit called Living Room Conversations. And the whole purpose was that we would host conversations with people from across the nation on social topics. So it was so fascinating to hear people talk about their views. But I did have a question. So whenever we were talking, it would often get uncomfortable because we were talking about very serious social topics.

1:02:18So how do you balance giving, like having a respectful space and letting people talk, but also staying true to yourself and not backing away from your own perspectives. But again, also not letting it turn hostile very fast, because I think it's a very tricky balance. But how do you maintain that? Okay. So Kwame, I would love your opinion on this because you're in different kinds of tense conversations that I'm in. So I think that there are two approaches, and this is really important because what can happen in a high stakes conversation is you give yourself. That's exactly what can happen is you hide who you are or you're afraid to say who you are.

1:02:54And that is the worst thing that we can do because you end up leaving feeling inauthentic and you actually didn't get anywhere in the conversation. So preparing for these is actually a very good mental exercise so that you don't accidentally do that in the room, especially for my people pleasers. That is typically the first thing that goes. So the first tactic I would give, and this is not based on research, it's just anecdote, is humor can lighten the mood even in the most tense conversations, and it can remind everyone that they are human. So saying, oh, this is uncomfortable, right? Okay, we're getting to it.

1:03:29We are getting to the issues, right? Like calling out the discomfort and naming it and just, okay, everyone take a deep breath. We're about to disagree. We are about to disagree. It's not going to feel good, but it's going to be good for us. It's like a vitamin, right? I think that we can gently and humorously call it out to just remind everyone to take a deep breath and that like we can disagree and still be ourselves. So I think humor is one that doesn't always work, but I think that humor is one way to do it. The second is respectfully using language that allows them to have their perspective and your perspective like this.

1:04:08You know what? I think two things can be true or I love that for you. Oh, you know what? Thank you so much for sharing that perspective. Or as Kwame said, professors say, you know, that's interesting. Or, you know, that's, I think about it a little bit differently. There are phrases that we can use that are quite like, this is different, or I love that for you, or adding, keeping those in your back pocket can help you transition into whatever your opinion is, right? They are hopefully making it so that you don't say sorry, or apologize, or qualify. They're still very clear, but they're very gentle.

1:04:43They're still soft. So I have a lot of those phrases that I will use to transition to whatever my opinion is, or maybe I don't even share an opinion. I just say, you know, I think about it differently, but thank you for sharing. Right. So I think like, I think it's okay to memorize those kinds of phrases because they, they serve as tools when your body is like, you know, um, they're kind of like, they help you lean on it. Kwame, what's your opinion? I'm so curious. I've got thoughts. Um, so, so this is a, I, I shout out the second book that I wrote, How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race, because this is something that we touched on a lot.

1:05:20So the first thing is a lot of times with these conversations about sensitive issues, we jump in at the key point of contention. It's like, hey, let me tell you why you're wrong. You're not going to get anywhere with that. You put them in a defensive position. Studies have demonstrated that a fact that disagrees with somebody's worldview you is processed in the brain as a threat. It triggers the fear mechanisms. So the part of the brain that is even used in deep thought is not activated. So that's why persuading with logic and facts alone, it's doomed. So if you see those debates online, nobody's changing their minds.

1:06:00We just want to see people dunk on each other. Now, the problem is when you think about social media, We're consuming so much content. When was the last time you saw a respectful conversation go viral? It doesn't happen. And so whenever we're talking about certain issues, we've been modeled a specific way of debating this content. And then we model that debate style in a way that's destructive versus constructive. So what I would suggest is renegotiating the rules of engagement before you even begin the engagement. What are we here to even do? What's the goal? Am I trying to persuade you? Are you trying to persuade me?

1:06:33Are we just trying to share our thoughts? Are we just trying to vent? And have that conversation with yourself before you have the conversation with them. Because if you need to vent, maybe you need to journal instead. Maybe you need to call a friend who agrees with you and get it out that way. Because the way that you're trying to process this is incorrect in terms of who you're trying to process with. So we can think about it bringing some elements of couples therapy into this. We can call it the fair fight rules. So if we're going to actually have this conversation, let's negotiate the terms of engagement.

1:07:05So if somebody, for example, if somebody makes a point before the other person can give their rebuttal, they first have to demonstrate their understanding of the point. So what I heard you say was this. So because a lot of times you make your point and the person just contends it without even fully understanding it. And if they didn't get that right, they say, OK, let me try to explain it again. And so the goal first level is just mutual understanding. And then talk about the points that you agree, because it's very unlikely that you disagree on literally everything. But we only talk about the things that we disagree with, which makes the conversation more destructive than it needs to be.

1:07:42So first, okay, I say my piece, you respond by demonstrating your understanding. Did I get that right? Okay, good. Now that I've demonstrated my understanding, I'm going to talk about the parts that you mentioned that I actually agree with. I can agree with theoretically those elements. And now here are the parts where we disagree with, boom. And now you can see how we have really shifted the way the conversation goes, where we are building upon each other, more so than tearing each other down. I created this thing called the Constructive Conversation Blueprint. What did I do with it? Nothing.

1:08:18My notes are just a bunch of relics that I never will use. No, I don't. You never shared it? I'll post it. Somebody steal it and do something with it. No, no. Tommy, we should talk about it on my channel together. Okay, we can do that. Yeah, that'd be great. Let's do that. Then we can share it together and you can walk me through it. So don't post it yet. Great. Okay, there we go. That's great. That'll be fun. But yeah, I think a lot of times these conversations are doomed from the start, just because they're not structured the right way. And so if we can just take the time to align on the process of communicating with each other, that would make the conversation flow so much better.

1:08:56Yeah. What do you think? You can go ahead and keep going. You can unmute again. Yeah. No, that's, I fully agree with that. But we also, when we were doing this at work, we would talk about listening to understand and not listening to know. And it goes back to what you were saying, that knowing is very static. And it's just like, yes, I know. And then you stop. But understanding is an active process. And you continue that. So I think just having that mindset. But I was just thinking, it's easier, I think, with friends. But with family, it gets so heated. So trying to have those parameters. Like with my brother, we argue constantly.

1:09:32So it's like, how do we try to do that? But then, I don't know, there's no like formal structure when you're talking with your family as well. I am so like the fact that we are all here and people are listening, like this is how we have better conversations. Like this is how we prevent it. Like if you can send it to your brother, you know, hi, we're so happy to meet you. You got sent this podcast, you know, so that someone could have a better conversation with you. We're happy to meet you. right? Like, I think I'm so, I was so grateful that Kwame wanted me on because we're actually getting to talk about the process of how to do this right.

1:10:08And that already is like leaps and bounds ahead. So the fact that we're all here, we're listening and we can share with others is like, that's going to already get us ahead. So send them this, this episode and be like, Hey, I really want to do this better with you. Here's what they said. Can we try? Can we try? Yeah. I love it. That's so good. And quick thing, because especially if it's your brother, one thing to do is reaffirm the foundation of the relationship no matter what you believe no matter what you say we are always going to be siblings and i always love you and care about you different deeply and the reason why i have this conversation with you is because i care and just stipulate to that to that at the beginning and then when things start to get heated just circle back because that's the shift of the frame which is i think about it as the storyline we have over the conversation.

1:10:54So coming into this, I'm going to set the frame. I am very aggressive when it comes to setting the frame. My goal in every conversation is to set the frame so positively and collaboratively that you would actually look ridiculous rejecting that, you know? So that's the thing. And so I set that frame. And then when things start to veer off track, I don't even respond to what was said. I just say, hey, listen, before I respond, I want to say, like I said at the beginning. My goal here is blah, blah, blah. And so that alone will help to lower the volume of the frustration. Another way you can do that, another way you can do that is, let's pause.

1:11:30Isn't it crazy that we grew up in the same house with the same parents and we have such different perspectives? When do you think that happened? Let's just go back in time. I'm just curious. We have the same parents, same house, but we just feel so differently. I think I'm I started this in sixth grade. I think when I took that civics class or whatever, when did you start to feel this way? Like go back, like literally go back and like talk about the process. Sometimes even just like stepping back and talking about the process of the relationship, the process of the conversation, it's like it allows you to diagnose like some of the why, like the narrative that's there.

1:12:11And you'll have a much more productive conversation if you learn when your brother got that idea. Like I don't even know what his idea is, right? But wouldn't it be interesting to know when you went, whoop, was it slow? Was it fast? Did he have a chapter change moment where he saw something or learned something? It's going to make it such a more interesting conversation. And maybe you'll understand him better from that. Or he'll understand you better. If you're like, you know, I had a moment. My chapter four was when I would. And then you're having a totally different conversation and maybe a deeper understanding.

1:12:45Brilliant. Ooh, so good. And I've got great news. We've got questions coming through. This is great. So, Simone, you're up. And then we'll go to Charlie and Alia. Well, sometimes it's very difficult to know, at least for me, who I am. Maybe you don't notice, but I am not a native English speaker. I come from South America. I live in Canada. Which country? Venezuela. Love it. Yep. Yeah, so I live in Canada now. I made my first Canadian friend. We play soccer together. We spend so much time together. Then I invited him to a Latin party. We went together and he saw me talking to other people in Spanish.

1:13:31he told me wow I didn't know you were like that and and then I realized I didn't know it I I swear I didn't know it uh but it I I was two different people I am two different people when I speak Spanish I am like extroverted when I speak English I I am afraid because I feel I am making a mistake in every word I say and perhaps it's not gonna change in a long time So I cannot wait to be a perfect English speaker to be the same person. So I don't know who I am. Maybe I am both or I am no one. I don't know. And my question for you is how can I close the gap between these two simons that I am facing now in this chapter of my life?

1:14:18Well, first of all, speaking a second language or a third language is one of the hardest charisma tests. It's like a charisma stress test every time you're speaking. Like, for example, I speak Spanish also. And I also feel very different when I speak Spanish. Like, you know, cuando yo hablo español, yo pienso que yo soy diferente. And so I think like, I also have the same feeling. I'm thinking about my language. I'm thinking about, I'm not even thinking about my body language. Like all of my cognitive load is going to my words. So this is what I want you to think about is one, first understand that is right.

1:14:54You are in a stress test for charisma, so have grace for yourself because it's very challenging. Second, what's happening is all of your cognitive load is going to words. But we know that words are a very small part of our communication. We have multiple channels of communication. I narrowed down to four. Words, verbal, nonverbal, body language, vocal, how we say our words, volume, pace, cadence, and ornaments, what you're wearing, what's behind you. If you're carrying something, what you're holding your profile pictures, that's the smallest one, like hair, jewelry, clothes. When you're speaking a second language, it's all verbal.

1:15:33So what I would practice when you're speaking your native language is dialing your nonverbal and your vocal. So it is muscle memory. So if you are super purposeful and practiced with your nonverbal presence, you know, what kind of gestures you make. You know how you like to claim space and stand. You know how you like to have head movement. Maybe you're very engaging, like you have a lot of head nods. Maybe you head tilt. Great. That's all part of your charisma recipe, right? There are 97 cues to choose from. You've chosen your cues. Vocal power, you know where you speak, right? Like I know I'm in, right now I'm using my lowest maximum resonance point.

1:16:10So when I'm on podcasts, I typically speak at this pace. When I'm talking to my daughters, I often speak a little bit higher like this. Hey girl, it's so good to see you. Now, if I were to do my podcast like this, it would drive you crazy, right? This is not how you want to hear me speak. So I want you to practice in your native language, dialing in your nonverbal. So it's muscle memory. You don't even think about it. And also knowing exactly where you deliver best. A lot of the times when we're speaking our second language, we go higher. It's like when I just spoke Spanish a minute ago, it sounded the same.

1:16:42Like it was the same vocal tone as when I speak English, but I had to work at that. I had to make sure that was muscle memory. Same thing for you. So I want you to figure out where is your maximum resonance point in Spanish, wherever that is natural to you. My preference, if I could give guidance, is the lower end of your natural range. That is where we showcase and demonstrate the most competence and confidence, confidence specifically. That way, when you switch into English or a third language, second language, your body and your voice are taken care of, right like you know that you're delivering with those three channels and ornaments too in your most charismatic professional way so that you give yourself a little bit more leeway on on the verbal um that's going to really help you feel like you're yourself right like you're still you sound the same as you do in spanish like vocally using the same kind of pace and cadence and you look the same that's going to translate into the words as well wow thank you so much i'm start working on that today that's so good and quick note too with simone it's one of the coolest parts about working with simone for so many years is that we've been able to see his his personality flourish just month by month um it's so fascinating because we all knew simone but we started we were able to know him more as he was able to ex express himself more so for me i can i can speak spanish So I could we could go and do a little bit of Spanglish.

1:18:13So but for the rest of the team, they could they could start to see how funny and charismatic and charming he is when he started to be able to express himself. And I remember I studied abroad in Ecuador and we talk about the different versions of yourself when you're in when you're speaking different languages. So when I speak Spanish, I feel a lot. tanto.

1:18:38That's one of the things that I just wanted to say as I'm having these stumbling through these conversations. I'm like, I promise you all I'm smart. I promise you I am smart. I just can't speak. And the it was the culmination for me, the big win at the end was I was able to tell a joke and people laughed. I was like, yes, I did it. I had a taxi ride for 20 minutes and got it um but it's just recognizing that you will be limited in your ability to express yourself when you're limited in your capacity to to speak the language and then when we parlay that to more of a societal thing the they're very disturbing statistics right now about literacy in america 54 of people can't don't get me started don't read above a sixth grade reading level 54 and when you think about literacy, there was a part where I made this note as I was reading your book, because literacy is not just your capacity to read words.

1:19:33It's about the word quantity that you have, but then also your capacity to understand context and subtext. So the literacy crisis extends far beyond the capacity to read because words are the tools that we use to be able to think. And so there are people who don't have the capacity to know themselves or know other people simply because of their inability to understand words. And one of the things that people say to me frequently is after I'm talking, when I'm talking to them and I'm listening and reflecting back my understanding, since I've studied this and I have more words for emotions and feelings and perspectives, they say, after I talk to you, I have a better understanding of myself.

1:20:16And so when you understand the tools from your book and you can communicate at a deeper level, you're really giving people a gift of not just communicating and connecting with them on a deeper level, but helping them to understand themselves and see the world itself in a much deeper level too. Can we talk about literacy for a second? Please. Yes. Okay. So I'm going to share a wish that I have. This is something that I've wanted for a long time. My end goal is to be able to make what I do a nonprofit and then actually be able to focus fully on literacy. I just think it's like the mechanism that we have in so many areas that if we were able to get our literacy rate up, recidivism, homelessness, it's a skill that we could give and then someone has forever.

1:21:02So the wish that I have is I need someone who is a linguistic expert to figure out what is the fastest way to teach someone to read. I actually don't think we've figured that out yet. I thought, Yeah, we just teach people how to read. And then my daughter turned five and I tried. Oh my gosh. And I was like, this is so hard. It is so hard to teach someone how to read. And so I need a linguist. And I hope to have enough money one day to hire a researcher. If there's anyone out there who's willing to do this, you have a lot of really smart people. What is the mechanism? Is it via a software? Could we do it over the radio?

1:21:40Could I buy a radio station and send people workbooks and and broadcast it for free is does it have to be by a computer could we put it in libraries in all libraries is it a workbook like what is the way both like mode wise like what is the technology or is it old school workbooks and then what is the way that we teach someone to read the fastest because it is quite difficult to teach someone to read and i underestimated that and then i was teaching my own daughters how to read and i was like wow this is It's really challenging. Yeah, it is humbling how difficult it is. Are you connected with Jim Quick?

1:22:15I know Jim. Yes. You do? Okay. So he's really focused on this. And yeah, this is a big side project for him too. So you all should chat about this, especially with his brain hacking. That would be interesting. And I'd be interested to see too if there's any value in connecting with more counterintelligence folks too, CIA, FBI. because when you think about literacy as it connects to the ability to communicate effectively, think about how they have to be dropped into different countries, speak with a native tongue, and they have a process to do that. I wonder if there's a way of connecting the brain hacking with those counterintelligence methodologies.

1:22:53Right. They figured out the way to do it the fastest. I think that that's actually the first hurdle in this journey is just researching the fastest way to do it before we even figure out how to disseminate it is like, what is the fastest way because that's a huge difference. A workbook is very different than an iPad. The rollout on that is very, very different. And so I think, and can it be done asynchronously? Like, could it be done by an app? I just like, I think we have to figure that out first before we even figure out how to roll it out all over, you know, schools, prisons, libraries, right?

1:23:25Like, like we have to get it everywhere. The question is, well, what is the thing? So. Right. Oh, so cool. Okay. We'll brainstorm on this and listeners reach out if you if you have any leads. Great. Awesome question, Simo. Who is next? Charlie, you're up. Okay, so I have a question for you, Kwame, and then also a question for you, Vanessa. So Kwame, earlier, I really keyed in on when you were talking about fear and attacking fear. And I was trying to think of other perspectives or ways it could apply besides just, you know, the like you were talking about related law school trauma that we all go through.

1:23:56But I was curious how you apply it to negotiations, because I feel for me, from my experience, you know, whether that fear is what kind of leverage does the other side potentially have over me? Maybe there's some sort of surprise they might throw out during the negotiation that then throws off my whole strategy. Or maybe it's something as simple as, you know, I'm walking in against someone in negotiation, I immediately recognize they have all this vast experience over me. How do you sort of address attacking fear in the negotiation setting, whether it is any of those examples I brought up or some other fears you've experienced and negotiated.

1:24:27This is so delicious. Okay. So my challenge will be to synthesize this in 90 seconds or less. So the first thing, this is the internal negotiation. So I have this process called focused catastrophizing. So when you're catastrophizing, you're focusing on all of the things that are scaring you. What you need to do is focus that process. So I say to myself, Kwame, if you want to freak out, freak out, but you've got a shot clock, you got 10 minutes. So you write down everything that is scaring you about this situation. And what you'll find is that usually it's not a long list of things, but it's just remixes of various combinations of the things.

1:25:00And your task is to find a way to be okay in all of those scenarios. So confidence isn't always feeling amazing. It is just knowing that no matter what the outcome is, I will find a way to be okay. And I need to become very, very, very comfortable with the worst possible scenario that could possibly happen in this situation. And then I also change my mindset about I don't really care about the outcome of the negotiation. My mentality is I divorce myself from the outcome, marry myself to the process. My goal is to use every conversation as practice to get better at the next conversation. So I like the tough conversations where there's a power asymmetry, information asymmetry, because I say, OK, negotiating from behind, this will be a heavy rep as I get my negotiation muscles stronger.

1:25:43So I embrace that difficulty. And then what's going to happen is when you think about the very simple definition of leverage as it relates to negotiation, there's a more textbook approach. But when you think about just old school negotiation parlance, the person who needs the deal most loses. And so for me, my goal is to emotionally detach myself from that need before I have that negotiation. And a lot of times in the negotiation, they will recognize that leverage point and they will lean on it and create this pressure point on you that will cause you to concede more than you need to. But when people have these negotiations with me and then they recognize that I am completely okay with whatever way this goes, it forces them to negotiate more in good faith because they can't leverage the emotionality that comes with need, the feelings of need against me in the negotiation.

1:26:31So when people threaten me, there is really no response because I've already been through it. Listen, I know you could do X, Y, Z and it'll have that outcome. I'm okay with that. So let's just have a conversation about what really matters. And if the person has more power, then I just use it. I use their ego against them. And I use the framework that I use is compassionate curiosity, but I angle it more towards advice. Hey, listen, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. I know my client has certain needs and I know you've been practicing for way longer than me. So I'm excited to not just converse with you, but also learn from you in this process.

1:27:08So out of curiosity, how are you seeing this? And so when you demonstrate that complete lack of fear and detachment from the outcome, it makes it much more difficult for the person to use that against you in the negotiation. So I hope I was under 90 seconds. I was aiming for it. Vanessa, any other thoughts? I really like the idea of giving yourself a time clock for that nervousness. I also think you can sometimes trick your body into feeling like a winner. and, you know, winning hormones really do help with the chemical of fear, with the chemical feelings of fear. And remember that when we're talking about fear, your body doesn't always know the difference.

1:27:51Like it doesn't know exactly what you're afraid of. And so I think like laughing, laughing in the face of fear, like your body's like, oh, I guess we're okay. I guess we're okay. So, um, like I have playlists that I will use or like certain funny people that I will watch just to like get my brain into like that, that funny zone. Because if you're, if you're doing that, your cortisol is lower, right? Your endorphins are starting to trigger. Endorphins are so good. If we're about to go into a very tense negotiation, I know there's, you know, Tony Robbins jumps, right? Like, you know, there's ways you can get your body into it.

1:28:28Um, I I've seen people do pushups before really high tense things. I watch a lot of speakers backstage dealing with their fear, right? Like they're very afraid to go on stage. And so I think that that all works, like getting your testosterone going for both men and women, getting your endorphins up, getting your dopamine up and having like a curated success routine. And remember, as Kwame said so beautifully, fear is not the absence of confidence. Fear is not feeling confident in doing it anyway, right? So just doing the thing, even if you're not like ready or don't feel good about it it tells your body like i'm still brave enough to do this so i think that um we have this mistaken belief that that we have to feel no awkwardness and no fear no no fear does good things for you right like it's it's sometimes giving you the adrenaline you need and that can be good like if i'm not nervous before speaking i actually get nervous like i want the adrenaline on stage yeah like i want that adrenaline because it like that adrenaline is like it makes you like perform really well so the sweet spot is adrenaline plus positive chemicals, endorphins and dopamine and testosterone.

1:29:34We don't want adrenaline plus cortisol. So if you can flip that high state, that high energy state into good nerves, it really helps you. Amazing. Ooh, I love that. I love that. And Charlie, you said you had another question for Vanessa too. Yeah. And I was going to say, I actually thought Vanessa made a really good point about trying to find different ways to sort of either combat that fear or nervous energy beforehand. Like I know for me, for example, if I ever knew I had a big presentation coming up, whether it was at an internship or in class, I would get funny looks, but I wouldn't care because it would just get me into that sort of like pregame mode where I would just put on different songs that would just have me in some sort of uplifting good mood that just had me relaxed.

1:30:13And then you just have that relaxing, feel good energy. And I just, at least for me from experience, feel that that then exudes on the people that you're presenting in front of, because then when And I have other people around me that look all uptight and they're shuffling their notes and trying to make sure they memorized every point correct. I'm walking in listening to my favorite song, smiling ear to ear, looking like some crazy person that couldn't be happier when everybody else is right now. And I'm just going there feeling confident of it's just going to happen how it is. I trust what I did.

1:30:40It just, I don't know, that energy, I feel like gets off to them and feels different. Love it. Love it. So good. And then my question for you that I had is, so as someone who has limited, but still for a couple of years have been part of my own podcast, I thought you made a very interesting point when you were talking, Vanessa, about social media and technology and how it's taking over more and more of our conversations. And I feel like especially podcasting, which has really blown up over these past few years, has become a main stream of communication. You also talked about, like, for example, what we're having here, how it doesn't feel quite the same no matter what you try to do as a natural conversation.

1:31:18Right. Like you were saying, we're all muted and waiting. And I mean, even I feel my co-host that I have all this chemistry with, we still have the points. Right. We're guiding each other into a question where if this was in real life and we were sitting having our discussion, you wouldn't be waiting for your cue to share something. then there wouldn't be these guiding points. So I'm curious what you think can be done in podcasting to sort of bridge that gap and try to get as close to, because I know it'll never quite be the same thing, but what kind of steps could be taken to make it feel more like that natural conversation?

1:31:47Yeah, you know, I think, do you know the podcast Good Hang with Amy Poehler? I've heard the podcast, yeah. Okay, so it was interesting. I, you know, podcasts were, everyone was like, oh, it's too late to have a podcast. Everyone has them. And then Amy Poehler came on the scene with her podcast maybe like a year, year and a half ago. And everyone was like, oh, another podcast. And it just, like it just skyrocketed in popularity. It's always one of the top podcasts. And I think it's because she is trying to get as close to a real conversation as she can. Unlike, well, yes, it's her interviewing another person.

1:32:25It's called Good Hang, right? It's not an interview show in the traditional sense of like she just wants it to be a good hang. And she says in her very first episode, if you're going to watch anything, go watch her very first episode. She says, you know, I'm not trying to make you better. I'm not going to try to change your life. I'm not going to give you advice. We're just going to have a good hang. I think that without realizing it, we were so desperate for that kind of a show that it's the most conversational I've heard of any podcast. maybe also World's First Podcast with Sarah and Erin Foster.

1:33:01They are very, very conversational, even when they bring someone on. Like if you listen to their episode, I was listening to their episode with Gwyneth Paltrow. It's like you're just listening in on their gab. And I think that those shows are just taking off, right? Like those are the ones that people are like, yes, because our brain kind of knows that it feels more natural. So I think one is in person, if you can do it, right? Like you don't have the muting issue, um, to making it feel like a real conversation as much as possible. So I actually like the conversations like, um, Steven Bartlett on Diary of a CEO.

1:33:34Uh, I went on that last year and the year before it's actually like a real conversation over a table. It feels like a real coffee conversation. I like this setup because we're not in two, you know, a lot of the shows are set up like two chairs diagonal. I would never have a coffee with a friend that way. I just like wouldn't do it. Whereas Stephen Bartlett has it set up where you're both facing each other over a table. That's very much like a boardroom table or a coffee table or a date, right? So like the setup, being in person, and then really trying to have depth with agenda. Like you could have a general idea, but not pre-scripted questions.

1:34:11Like my favorite podcasts are like this one where, yes, I know we did our research. We have things we want to share. I have my little bullet points and Kwame has his like kind of questions, but we're also just sort of going where it takes us. I think the more that you can have like very unstructured agenda is, I think those are the podcasts that are going to take off. I think like that's, those are the ones that are going to really grow. Yeah. Oh, great question, Charlie. Hey, hold up, Charlie. So you need to shout out your podcast. Yeah. You have to shout out the podcast. No, I mean, I would say it's definitely a little more unique than maybe what somebody would expect a podcast that'd be a part of is given, you know, this is law school and dispute resolution and communication related, but I'm part of the HHH racing podcast.

1:34:54And actually it's more of a horse racing podcast that I ended up being on completely by randomness and chance, simply from a family friend coming to visit one time and seeing me have the horse racing program sitting on my desk as I was getting ready to leave to go to my home track. And I was in high school, or no, I was a freshman in college at the time. So it was a very young age to be into something like that. And he just pitched to me the idea because he already had the podcast going of one day coming on as like a guest episode to get younger people into the sport. And then that blossomed and actually becoming a full time member.

1:35:26And I've been doing that for a couple of years now, three years now. Wow. Learned a personal passion. Cool. Yeah, that's so cool. That is so cool. Okay, thank you, man. Thank you for sharing. Great. We have Alia and then Priya. Hi, I just want to say I've really enjoyed listening in. I think all of this is really resonating with me. I wanted to circle back towards the beginning when we were talking about the different frames that people have. So I think I'm someone who has a redemption frame mindset. And I feel like sometimes when I'm interacting with people who have the contamination frame, we end up butting heads.

1:36:03So I was wondering if you have any suggestions for how I can share like my more growth oriented perspective and like understand where the other person is coming from and not make them feel invalidated? Yes. Okay. Great question. So redemption folks, growth mindset folks have such good intention, right? Like we want to help. We want to help you be a self-author. We want to convince you that you are lucky. We want to tell you that you can create your own luck. It's just your, just your mindset. Like we have such good intention to help, But what that can come across as is toxic positivity, right?

1:36:42And so redemptive folks can sometimes accidentally do the, oh, it'll all work out. If you look on the bright side, it'll be okay. You know, it's what you make it. It's what you make it. You know, where's the silver lining here? And that is really soul crushing. Like toxic positivity is a really challenging thing. I, so one is there is a very fine line between sharing optimism and hope and toxic positivity. And I think as redemptive people, we have to be very aware of that line. I think the difference is curiosity. So when someone says to me, like, I have a whole people in my life who do this to me and it drives me absolutely crazy.

1:37:25I actually have a redemption mindset, but sometimes things are hard, right? Whenever anything's hard, these people will say like, oh, you always work it out. You always figure it out. And what I noticed there is a lack of curiosity, right? They're giving me a prescription. They're telling me what they want the frame to be for me. That's not curious. So what we need to do instead is offer curiosity. So my gosh, like, how does that feel for you? You know, what do you think is going to happen next? What caused it? Are you having trouble sleeping because of it? Tell me about how it's affected your personal life, right?

1:38:01Like the more questions we can ask that A, give us understanding, but B, help them discover their own understanding, right? Like help them like have a meta moment of like, gosh, you know, I didn't realize I hadn't thought about it that way. Or I guess it did start last month. That's true. Or you can ask questions like, you know, do you think it will ever get better? Do you think it'll ever get better? Right? And they're like, well, you know, I guess someday, when? When do you think it will get better? Right. Like you're guiding them to that idea that this is a temporary state or this is a temporary thing.

1:38:37So I think curious questions, well-intentioned questions are much more important than toxic positivity. I think that curiosity is like that magical ingredient. Yeah, I agree. I just there's a folktale that is coming to mind. It's the the blind men and the elephant. So imagine that there is a literal elephant in the room and five blind men observing the elephant. So they said, okay, I want you to touch the elephant. Tell me what an elephant is. So one person touched the elephant's ear and said, an elephant is like paper. Somebody touched the tail and said, elephant is like a rope. Somebody touched the tusk and said, an elephant is like a spear.

1:39:12And then the men started to argue. So who was right? Who was wrong? They were all both right-ish and all both wrong-ish. And so bringing it back to what you're talking about, I think about it in terms of not denying the part of the elephant that the person is seeing. So tell me about what you're feeling. Okay, go deeper, go deeper and validate it saying, yeah, you have every right to feel and think the way that you do. And just make sure that you're leading, like Vanessa said, with that curiosity so you can get a full understanding of where they're coming from. And then all your goal is to just help them to see perhaps there is more to this elephant than they've considered, right?

1:39:48You have every right to feel the way that you feel considering everything that you have right now. And perhaps there's another way that we could look at it, but it's completely up to you. And the thing is, a lot of times when we try to persuade, we use the most unpersuasive way of persuading, where it's like the thing we push hardest toward is the thing they push most against. And so you want to feed into that autonomy and say, you have every right to believe what you want to believe. You have every right to see what part of the elephant that you want to see. There might be something else. If you want to talk about that, I'm here for it.

1:40:19But if you don't, that's cool too. It's your life, your choice. And sometimes that approach which opens them up a little bit more to it too. I love that elephant metaphor. I've never heard it before. It's so good. If only I'd put it in my book. Oh, you should have told me about it. That's gonna be in your book. That's gonna be in your book. Thank you. That was great. Great question. Great question. And then let's wrap with Priya. Thank you. Vanessa, in your new book, I think you address, I haven't read it, but according to the bio or the description, you discuss how to be authentically assertive.

1:40:57And I think that's such a difficult concept in and of itself, but especially balancing that with things like being humble and whatnot. And especially for law students and people like Alia and I, who are going to be new attorneys in the field, hopefully next year, how do you suggest that we enter new spaces as novices or even as women sometimes and feel comfortable enough to be authentically assertive? By the way, this is for everyone in every area of their career. This is a struggle for not just new folks in their career. This is for C-suite executives who hire me to help them with Authentically Assertive.

1:41:31So don't feel like you're behind. Actually, it's a very, very hard skill to learn for every area. And the answer is, and actually this was my longest chapter in the book, and my editor made me keep cutting it down, cutting it down, cutting it down to be really synthesized. The answer is constructive language. So being authentically assertive is being masterfully in control of the words you use. This means there is deconstructive language and constructive language. Deconstructive language is hedging. It's apologizing. It's dismissing. But it also can be vague, generic, AI slop. There's a whole new category in that deconstructive language bucket of we're using AI to write our emails we're using ai to clean up our memo or our cover sheet and what ai does is it vagifies i don't know if vagifies is a word but that is what it does it takes precision of language it takes nuanced metaphor and it strips it like that's what its job is and so it's like this filter that we're using that's actually making us more deconstructive so the the most obvious ones are, you know, I don't know if this is like a good question or not, but that was deconstructive, right?

1:42:53Like that is the opposite of authentically assertive or, um, uh, Hey everyone. I'm happy to be here. So sorry. I'm late. Um, and can it, am I good? Am I, can you see me? Right. Yeah. Right. So, um, those are all in the bucket of deconstructive language. Your first five words matter. So being very precise with your first five to 10 words. What are the first five words you say in an email? The first five words you say in a text? The first five words of your resume? The first five words in your LinkedIn profile? Your headline? The first five words in your opener? Those matter. Second is how you're sharing your opinion without qualifications or apology, but with the confidence that you feel.

1:43:41I encourage my students to say the words, I'm confident that, not I think, not I'm pretty sure, not even based on my research. I would rather you say, I'm confident that, or I'm confident in. So adding in very precise, constructive language in our first few words, but also right before we're about to share an important point, right before we're about to share our perspective, that is signals to the other person's brain that, wow, this person really knows their stuff. And they're being careful with their words in the sense of, I can trust their words. Like they've thought this through. There's no throwaway language here.

1:44:20There's no language that's making it vague or hard for me to understand. And this, the final effect of this is it makes you easier to listen to. We really like people who use constructive language. We, I went back when I was writing conversation to look at the most underlined passages in my first two books. So I went to the Kindle version of Captivate and Cues, and I was just curious what people had underlined. And it shocked me. They did not underline my most complicated, erudite sentences, the ones that I slaved over. They underlined my shortest sentences, my shortest most concise most direct helpful sentences and that was really surprising to me because it meant that was constructive so this constructive is not about big words it's not about complex sentences it's about being really easy to comprehend really easy to listen to so that is short concise specific ideas and sentences so i think that is the way that we can speak in a way that makes us like a pleasure to communicate with.

1:45:26Such a great answer. And also this description helps me to understand the way that you approach writing this book too, because it felt like a good hang with Vanessa Van Edwards. That's what it felt like as we were reading it, because you weren't trying to talk over us and demonstrate how incredibly intelligent you are with the big words. And you spoke directly to that in the book, but it sounded so real and authentic and it's huge. And then speaking to the assertiveness piece, one thing to consider too is recognizing, again, this is a challenge that everybody deals with to a certain extent, a lot of people deal with.

1:46:01So as you become more assertive, something to keep in mind as you become more of a compassionate, warm communicator is helping other people to be assertive with you. So the same things that you heard Vanessa say, don't do, you will hear other people doing those things. And so what I've learned to do is just say, hey, listen, before I even respond, I want us to have a relationship where you feel comfortable telling me like it is. I don't need you to make me feel good. I need you to help me to get better and be right. I don't care about being right. I care about helping you, you helping me to get right.

1:46:34Right. So tell me like it is. It's not going to hurt my feelings. And so then they can be a lot more direct. So as you think Think about how you can be more assertive with other people. Also think about how you can help other people be more assertive with you. When you see these signals, give them permission to tell you like it is. You know, what a gift. What a gift that would be. Yes. Amazing. Well, this was so much fun. I had a blast. We did. Vanessa, before you go, let us know again about the book, how we can learn more from you and how we can support you too. Yes. Oh my goodness. You know, this book has been a labor of love, as I mentioned, my longest, most researched book.

1:47:16And I tried to write it as a conversation. Like I really, I try to like write it as I'm speaking to you. I have nine power questions in the book, three for each level. My greatest, fondest wish is that you do those nine questions with your important people. If we could be asking these questions to the important people in our life, we would feel more connected. We would feel less alone. we would be having a more productive, connected world. So I read the audio book if you like my voice. We also have it, of course, wherever books are sold. And please, please do the nine questions. I'm actually going to do a little yap challenge for the book launch.

1:47:56So if you're feeling real brave, you can also join me for that. And I'm just super, super grateful. Thank you so much for letting me share these ideas, for reading the book, and all of you who joined us. I'm sorry that you were on mute. I couldn't really get to know you as well as I would have liked, but thank you for giving me your beautiful questions. Amazing. Vanessa, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.