Why High Achievers Never Feel Successful | Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

0:00I've got a question for you. Do you want more love, happiness, and success in your life? Well, good news. We had Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby on the podcast, and that is the name of her podcast. And that's what this podcast turned into because we are really good friends. And she asked me so many questions. So you're getting the best of her and the best of me. So why would you want to listen to this episode? Good question, listener. Here's why. Do you want to hear from somebody who is not just a therapist and a clinician, but somebody who grew a small practice to a multi-office location where she serves clients in the U.S.

0:36and internationally? Yeah, she's an entrepreneur too. Oh, do you want to talk to somebody who knows how to not just help people get from their worst place to their best place, but also helps other therapists to become coaches so they can get people to take their big swings just like you're trying to do? Yeah, you probably want to hear from a person like that. Well, good news. You have her today. in our longest episode ever because we were just vibing out it was so good so if you want to have more love happiness and success as you are taking your big swings listen to this episode this is the story of dr lisa marie bobby and welcome to big swings only this episode is brought to you by granola and quince if meetings are eating up your day granola is a no-brainer you can try it totally free for three months.

1:24Just head to granola.ai slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. If I were to bring the younger version of myself and have him inhabit my emotionality, I think he would be very disappointed because he would look at the outside and say that I have checked every single box that I wanted to check.

2:06And I still wonder whether or not I've made it. I still wonder whether or not I'm successful. I'm still waiting and pushing off happiness and peace to the next horizon. he would be deeply disturbed that he still hasn't acquired what it is that he wanted yet, which is that feeling of being enough. And I said, oh, wow. So this is a me thing. I've got to figure this out. And so for the last year or so, that's been the process of journaling. And now it's just being cool with where I am and enjoying the moment too. It's been a really beautiful transition. That is incredible. Thank you so much for sharing that with me.

2:45And that's what I think shocks so many people because we think that if I do the thing and I get the house and I have the whatever, then I will feel differently. And your 21-year-old self will be like, why do I still feel the same? And did you know that's actually a name for it? Tell me. There is. This is a principle of positive psychology. It's called the hedonic treadmill. that if I just climb the next mountain and it keeps people going and going. And it's so hard, I think, to recognize that, especially if it's okay to say for somebody with like an achievement orientation, like I think you probably do, to recognize that and be like, okay, I'm going to get off this treadmill and just like be, be happy.

3:30Yes. Oh, this is so good. So the timing of this is so funny. I just recorded a course with LinkedIn Learning. It's a remarkable link of my course, leading and motivating different personalities and achievement motivation. The achievement orientation is one of the things that we talked about. And what people don't know is one of the things I mentioned in the first course, I said, I have this friend who says success is like oxygen. You know, you just take a breath and it's great for now, but it's not as good as the next breath. You need one, the next win. But I was talking about myself. That's how I feel.

4:07And so to talk to somebody else who actually knows the psychology, you know, it's a blessing and a curse. It is. It feels like being chased by wolves. I mean, I've honestly had to do some personal work around this myself. And, yeah, because it's never enough. I mean, it's just this insatiable, like, what is the next thing? And even from the outside, when somebody would be like, man, you're killing it, you're doing all this great stuff, it still feels like, well, not really. And it's hard to enjoy it. And what a shame, you know, especially for somebody who works so hard and has done so much like you.

4:43Exactly. Yeah, it's funny too because it's for a lot of people that can be coded as humility where the person's like, no, no, it's really not that. No, in their mind they're struggling because they don't think it's enough. It's never enough. Okay, well, now I'm struggling with myself right now. Do I go deep with you right now? Let's go deep. Shall we? Okay. I always like to ask permission. It's just for me. Nobody else is here. Well, I mean, maybe one or two friends. Okay. Simone is here. Well, okay. And I mean, I've done some work around this myself. But I'm curious. Why is that true for you, would you say?

5:26Like, where does that come from inside of you? This, like, never enough. Yeah. I think it's well-meaning parenting. Because my parents both are high achievers. My dad's a surgeon. My mom has a PhD in nutrition professor. And so they were always, and Caribbean immigrants too. And so the mentality was you always need to outperform and overperform everybody to get recognition. So essentially the mindset was, hey, whatever you achieve, people are going to see it as less. So you need to overachieve at all times at every level. And so for me, I knew that when I went through, it was hard for me to celebrate wins because I knew the job wasn't done.

6:08And that was the mentality that kept me going. And so it's like, okay, graduated from high school. Okay. Yes, I know. That's expected. And then, okay, graduated from college. Yes, I know that's expected. I didn't even really want to go to, this is sick, but I didn't even want to go to the graduations because I'm like, I don't want to feel that satisfaction in order to think that I'm done yet. No, I've still done all the work to do. But no, like you were very aware of your own psychology. I was like, no, no, no. If I go to the graduation, then I'll feel like it's complete and it's not. Exactly.

6:44So same thing with the master. So I had the law degree and the master of public policy still finished in three years. And I was like, listen, these graduations are distractions. I still have to pass the bar. And it was always my family was like, what's wrong with you? You're going to this graduation. We're celebrating you regardless. And the thing was, I said, no, I don't want to ever feel satisfied because it's that hunger that drives me. But what's funny is that now that I'm more at peace, I realize I'm I'm not only have I not lost my drive, I feel like I have more energy to drive because I'm not wasting it on needless negativity and scarcity mindsets.

7:21That's a good point that you feel like your capacity for doing more has increased because you're right. I mean, it's energetically like depleting and draining to feel like it's never enough. And that there's a paradox there. Like you released some of that and now you're you're like there's more vitality. Exactly. Exactly. Because there's a difference between like it's not mutually exclusive. You can still find contentment without being content, like complacent. Yeah. Right. Right. Those two things you can you can still drive. And it's really interesting. But what's interesting, too, is that I can drive and succeed and feel, oh, that's great and drive and not get what I want and say, that's fine, too.

8:01I'm good. And so it's very insulating in a way that I didn't expect. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a pivotal moment that were like you had that recognition? You're like, oh, wait, I can't keep doing this. Or was it sort of like a slow boil that happened over time? I think it's more of a slow boil, slow boil, just kind of chipping away. because I remember one time when I was, because a big part of my story is the negotiation competitions. So I did this negotiation competition in law school. We won that at Ohio State. And then that let us represent our law school at the American Bar Association in Ottawa, Ontario.

8:43And that negotiation competition, we won that too. Then we made it to the national competition in New Orleans and we made it to the semifinals where we lost. And you see, even that framing is pathological. We achieved a success in getting that far. I know, but I'm already sitting here thinking like, so how do you win a negotiation competition? And then what do you win? Very good negotiators get better prizes because that's like part of what they negotiated for themselves. Anyway, I have many questions, Kwame, but I don't want to derail the story. I'll go back to those. but I remember they had the award for the folks who made it to the semis.

9:24They said, hey, everybody, your awards are on the table. And my partner took his award and I was walking away and my coach said, hey, Kwame, you forgot your award. I was like, I didn't forget the award. I didn't come here for that. I came here for the championship. And he's like, Kwame, first of all, take your award. Second of all, listen, I've lived my life with that type of pressure on me. And I'm telling you, it is not a fun way to live. And I logged it. Yeah, you're like, I hear what you're saying. Yes. And then, you know, reading, you know, studying psychology, that was my degree, reading all these books.

10:02And so I understood it conceptually and theoretically, recognizing the nexus between positive psychology and just ancient philosophy, stoic wisdom. I'm like, okay, I'm seeing that. That's interesting. And then after 1800 episodes of the podcast and hearing people say certain things i'm like you know what i'm seeing this and then it was all conceptual and then i said i said you know you you do these things and you want podcast listeners to live better lives and be happy and you're not doing the stuff how about you do the thing kwami why don't you just try it and so it wasn't until i gave myself permission to experiment like hey listen treat it like a test drive test drive at four weeks see what happens.

10:42And if your empire collapses, you could go back to being unhinged. And so I tried it out for a week. Everything was fine. Two weeks, everything was better. And I guess I'm still running the trial and things haven't talked apart. What are you actually doing differently internally? It is being more present. Okay. Being more present, enjoying the moment, not always like time traveling, time traveling to the past. Yeah. Like reliving those regrets. And then fast forward into the future. What could I be doing? What should I be doing? What am I moving toward? But just understanding this present moment and appreciating it for what it is.

11:29And I developed this little mantra. The present is perfect. And so the mentality was in this very little moment here in this moment here with you, Simone, in this in this podcast, this is delightful, utterly delightful. And there are things in life that are beautiful all around you all the time. You just need to start training your mind to see it. But you will find whatever you're looking for. And if you're looking for problems, you're going to find it. And so here's an example. Here's an example. So I remember with Whitney, we've been married for 16 years now. We got married on graduation day from undergrads.

12:09We've been married for like a long time, you know. And so I remember I would always ask her this question. What can I do to be a better father? What can I do to be a better husband? Take those notes. Go back to the lab. Work on it. Come back. Ask. And so I remember in about September of 2024, I asked her and she thought for a minute and And she's like, nothing, actually. This is great. I'm really happy right now. And it was the worst thing I could have heard because my mind's short. So you're like, nothing? What do I work on? I need an assignment like that. What do I do? What does that mean? What's my purpose now?

12:46And so then I started to hyper-optimize on things that she didn't ask for. Like what? It's like, okay, cool. Well, she's doing a lot of – she would be cleaning. And I'm like, well, I work from home. I can out clean her. I'm going to do more more of that housework so she doesn't have to do it. Cleaning competition. Yeah. You're going to win cleaning. Yeah. So I was like, yeah, exactly. So I said, OK, I'm going to think about the things that she would want to do that she doesn't need that she needs to do but doesn't want to do. I'm going to jump ahead and do those things. Right. And but then what ended up happening is that it created a bit of resentment because I was saying, but she's not trying to like improve as as a wife, even though I was perfectly happy because I'm setting these new standards that nobody asked for.

13:30And that's when I realized, you know, bro, you got some issues. You got some blips to work through here. That's hilarious. I mean, but how much insight, though, that you're aware of it. But like you created an imaginary competition. And then when she wasn't playing the game with you, you were like, but what? And it made you feel bad. Exactly. Wow. Yeah. Although even though I have to say like that you would think to do that in the first place, you're kind of making other dudes look bad, Kwame. Like seriously, what does she not like to do that I could maybe do? Do it really well. So I'm glad you stopped because that would like – yeah.

14:10She is too. Create a lot of problems for many men. Thank you. Thank you. Well, let's talk about relationships, though, because I know you deal a lot with relationships. When you've written a lot on this, you have a lot of podcasts on it and everything. What have you noticed has changed over the course of your practice as it relates to the patterns you're seeing in relationships? What a good question. And let me think about this, because are there really differences? Um, actually, I do think that there are some differences. So generally, and so I'm a marriage and family therapist, I'm a psychologist, a lot of what I do is relational work.

14:57And I think what has always been true, including when I went to marriage counseling myself back in the day, when people come into marriage counseling, there is this belief that the reason why things are feeling hard is because their partner is doing or not doing something. And that the reason why we're going to go to marriage counseling is so the marriage counselor can straighten them out, and then it's going to be great. That is why people come. And so they come and sit on the couch very expectantly and wait for me to be like, you're what? How could you do that to her? You should really stop that.

15:31Whatever. And so that's always been true. So we always have to work with that a little bit. Of course, bringing people into this new experience in a safe way where they can see that people are co-creating relationships all the time, relationships or systems. But what I do think is interesting and different, I think that our culture has changed enough where people are invested in working on themselves and they're listening to podcasts and reading books and I think actively not just aware of more of their psychology, but have new names for it. And what happens many times, particularly in the context of distressed relationships, we have some awareness of our own stuff, but it becomes easier in some ways for us to see and then also label the things that we see other people doing.

16:20So what is different about now is that when somebody is coming in with relationship distress and there's a story around it being their partner's problem, they will often have a label to go along with that. I think he's on the autism spectrum. They might be a narcissist. Like, they're gaslighting me. So there's these opinions that aren't just somebody's own experience but have been formed by taking information from the culture about what it means and what the problem is. And that's hard, actually, to work with as a therapist. I will tell you that. Yeah. Tell me what makes it so tough. Um, because there is so much cultural support for their narrative of their experience.

17:04So like, for example, in the past, somebody could could come in and say, my partner, Kwame, such a nice man, and is also doing a lot of stuff that I'm not asking for. And then like what you were saying, it creates a dynamic where now he expects me to be doing, you know, operating at Kwame levels. And I'm just I'm like a different human. And so how do we just enjoy each other more? I'm just making stuff up right now. But that would be an example versus somebody coming in now and saying, my husband has some kind of diagnosable mental health condition. I think they're hypomanic. I think that they are over-functioning because of blah, blah, blah.

17:52And if I were to say, well, you know what, this is a different situation because there isn't that sort of systemic distress. But if I were to say something like, so how do you meet him where he is? How do you guys talk about this? How do you reclaim the center and help each other both feel good and have open conversations about this? In some ways, that feels harder because a character assessment, who this person is, how they are, it feels durable. It's hard to change that. Like if I've decided my husband has autism spectrum disorder. and the other piece though is that there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people telling me that i should be interpreting my experiences that way depending on what algorithm has like caught on to you and so then as a therapist to say actually maybe maybe there's other things you could talk about um because it's so reinforced it's harder to change the paradigm oh oh okay so much here yeah quick thing simone i'm gonna bring you in because i want you to tell your story about the algorithm shaping you and your decisions and then also listeners if you want to see a role play of me and lisa murray like uh as a as a couple of having a couple squabble check out the episode i did with her so it's on her podcast um we'll put a link in the description because that was a fun one.

19:23Fantastic. That was a really fun one. I was like, are we doing this now? Okay. Let's do it. Okay, Subo, tell your story because it perfectly aligns with the situation. Well, it was like one year ago, I was talking to Kwame about the algorithms and I was telling him that I was living like a situation in a relationship and the algorithm was telling me, hey, this is what you're feeling. This is what's going on. So the algorithm was trying to show me what to analyze in the other person. So I was being led by the algorithm about what to do. So it was like prompting me to break my relationship, right?

20:05Right. So I got convinced by the algorithm. And then after I broke up my relationship because I was convinced of what I saw, the algorithm suddenly changed and started telling me about reconciliation and how to build the relationships again. So it was like guiding my life without, I was not even noticing it, right? But it was telling me what to do and the algorithm knew what was going on exactly in my life and when I took that decision and then what was my next step. Wow. The way that you, I mean, yes, we all know that's happening, but just to hear you describe that so explicitly, but also how it was influencing you in really powerful ways that, you know, changed the trajectory of a relationship.

20:58And then that it knew, OK, we need to start talking to Simone about reconciliation now. That is creepy. And I'm sorry that that happened to you. But, you know, and listen, you're a grown man and could like detach a little bit. Think about a little 15 year old. Right. You know, I mean, people who don't have as well developed of a self yet and the vulnerability. That's wild, though. Right. Yeah. But for you as a clinician, how do you how do you combat that? Because you can talk about based on your years of practice and your your certifications and your experience and education. Hey, you're you're making this diagnosis by diagnosis.

21:42is probably not right because of these reasons. But then they go online and somebody who just got their heart broken is telling you, these are the classic signs of a narcissist. If they ever say this or do that, they are this. So you are one person having one conversation with a whole bunch of background data. And they are thousands of people constantly with a barrage. Right? Yes. How do you handle that? Very charismatic, great haircuts and strong opinions. It is hard. And now we also have Claude and, you know, Grock and all these being like, hi, I'm your new best friend. And here's thank you for telling me all the stuff and like uploading 275 pages of your diary.

22:26So now I know everything. And, you know, and and also very confidently dispensing advice. And so the answer to your question, though, I mean, first of all, it's not easy. We're sort of swimming against the tide. I do believe, though, that even education and helping people understand a couple of things, first, that it's happening, you know, that meta awareness of like, oh, wait, what am I doing right now? And you know what? I am having this experience. It's just like being curious about why do I believe this? Where is this coming from? And so like some of that reality testing almost and making people aware that that's a need.

23:05But the other thing I think is very important, education around the fact that getting information, being told what to do, is completely different from having an experience that helps you really, like, connect with your truth. And that is something that good therapists do and good coaches do. And that's what I'm hearing in your story, Kwame. I mean, nobody told you how to feel and what to believe that over time you were self-aware enough, you were having these experiences doing your podcast, that you're like, oh, wait, we're talking about me right now, aren't we? You know, like putting that together, but then linking it up with your internal experience.

23:47And it is experiential. It is not informational. Oh. Oh. Yeah. So that's what people don't understand. So they're taking in information and confusing it for an experience that it's not. Time to get super meta. No pun intended. Instagram and Facebook. So when we – this is very interesting because it seems to be a merging between our digital identity and what we are and what we believe in reality. And it sounds like a big part of this psychological literacy slash digital literacy is recognizing that what you're seeing online doesn't directly apply to you. But knowing that consciously, because I think if you ask somebody, hey, does this random video apply directly to your life?

24:43They'll say, of course not. But it's almost like brainwashing to a certain extent. Oh, yeah. Because it feels like it's for you. Yeah, it absolutely does. And also the way that algorithms follow you, it makes it seem like everyone is having the same experience. Like, you know, if you watch somebody else's YouTube channel, mine, it's going to be like all kinds of dumb, boring cooking videos, maybe some doom slime mixing going on. And it's going to say nothing about gaslighting because it's not an interest of mine. But when you're in that space, there's this like everything you look at supports what you already believe and you don't even know that it's happening.

25:23So, yes, it's very like cultish. Yes. Yeah. Question. Did you say doom slime? Doom slime. Oh, my God. I'm going to send you some videos. Okay, so what it is is a video of somebody like with a bowl and like eight containers of slime and like some mix-ins and some glitter and some sparkles. And they put all the slime in a bowl and they just mix it up with their hands. Yeah, it's very relaxing. Is this like ASMR type stuff? Probably, yeah. Like little crispy noises. Yeah. So, okay, tell me. Playing with slime. Yeah, what's your experience with that? What draws you to it? I mean, well, it's relaxing.

26:06It's colorful. And yeah, like, I mean, if you need to go to sleep, something like that is like boring enough that it's not particularly engaging, but enough to keep watching. Yeah, this is so cool. I love learning new things about you. It's funny, too, because as we shift from vilifying the algorithm, it can help you find some things that you're into. It absolutely can. Yeah. Yeah. For better or for worse. Right. Right. Right. Did you did you know, OK, you know what? I'm a doom slime girl. Yeah. I never would have gone looking for that, actually, had the algorithm said, you know what you might be into.

26:49And I was like, no, no. Oh, yeah, I am. I am actually. oh simone do you have any examples of weird you know let's keep it pg of course like what anything that you were surprised you liked online because i know for me the thing that surprised me because youtube had a wrapped like just spot right yeah one of my favorite things to watch last year was short short videos like youtube shorts of baseball and like baseball baseball highlights and if you ask me kwame do you like baseball i'm like i respect the sport i hate watching baseball i never watched baseball but then the algorithm told me well you like highlights i like baseball highlights more than any other sports i hate baseball i don't it doesn't make sense oh my what what is it about should i start watching baseball what is amazing about it well You know, you have what?

27:46Baseball games are what? 12 hours long. Just like seven days to like bring a tent. Yeah. And then you have one epic highlight, a diving catch. It's like, wow. That's like you have these spurts of incredible athleticism. And also the baseball fights are so good. Fights? Oh, wait. Like people in the stands? No. Or baseball players? Baseball players. Like, hey, you hit my player. So next time you're up at bat, I'm hitting you. You think that was an accident. I'm hitting you. friend next okay now we're obligated to fight so it's like a culture of honor at a certain point they're like well we're all fighting now i did not even know so you're saying that like if somebody accidentally gets hit by a ball like oh no that was very on purpose very personal and there's almost like this retaliation kind of thing going on sometimes i had no idea they'll throw behind the player so it's like oh in case you thought that this was an accident you know the base is over on you.

28:44This side of you, I'm throwing on the opposite side to make it clear that I'm aiming for you. Oh my God. So there's like this whole psychological intimidation layer to baseball because you know what? Those like professional ballplayers, you get hit with a ball. It's going 90 miles an hour. Like that could hurt. And so they're psyching each other out. And then there's also - I did not know that. It's so good. And then there's a higher bar for how much you can yell at the ref. So you can yell like inches. I'm talking inches close to their face. You can yell at the ref for like two minutes before he throws you out.

29:22And there are these people who do like lip reading. And so sometimes, again, culture of honor, a manager says, okay, you know, my team is really mad about these calls. I'm going to have to have this conversation with the ref. and so they're close to and they're yapping at each other and so then you're actually the reading that the lip says listen listen okay i understand that you're mad yeah i'm mad okay do you want me to throw you out yeah i need you to throw me out of this game are you sure you want me to throw you out i need you to throw me out of this game all right you're out of there are you kidding me this is ridiculous so he's like i need to make a stand to my team and i won't they won't believe that I've got their back unless I yell at you to the point where you throw me out of this game.

30:09I see. There's performance art. There's theater happening in baseball. Yes, apparently. I had no idea. Me neither, but the algorithm served me one. They're like, hey man, you want this? I'm like, no. Wait a second. I mean, I can understand why though. This conversation just locked a whole other dimension of reality for me. I will never look at baseball the same way again. I thought it was like, you know, actually about hitting the ball. That is not what's happening. No, it's about sometimes it's about hitting people, you know. But you see, it's very, the rhythm gets and it takes away. It's so, so funny.

30:50Okay, can I ask you a question though? And this actually just is coming up. Okay, so like, you're talking about this whole other psychological thing happening in baseball, which is fascinating to me. So with the art of negotiation, with your specialty, so I know and from our previous conversations that you are coming into this as a warrior of the light and like I'm your new best friend. I'm here to help you. You love me. I love you. It's going to be great. And like that is a very powerful place to be when it comes to effective negotiation. But are there also dark arts in negotiation where you are like intimidating a little bit, like not throwing a baseball at someone, But were there other times that you did some of that where they were like, oh, OK, like.

31:32There are methodologies. I'll give some examples. Not not the ones that I use, because for me, I see more long term value in the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to burn it down. Totally. And the reputation, too. Yeah. But there are subtleties. So, for instance, proxemics. So the study of the how close you are to people. And so what's interesting. Uncomfortable. Exactly. And so you become everybody has a personal bubble. And so it's a different size for different people culturally. Yeah. And two. But I remember talking to there was actually the CIA agent, Jack Schaefer. He was on the podcast.

32:11He talked about in his one of his books. I believe it was his one of his books. He said, yeah, when you understand proxemics, you could actually move people without them recognizing. So imagine you're in a networking event. You know, when people are standing, they will naturally shift weight from time to time. Sure. And so they and so he's he started to play with proxemics and he's like, OK, cool. I want to see how far I can move this person. Like herding them around the room like a shepherd. He moved him to the other side. Incremental. Right. So you see Donald Trump, if you look up a compilation of him shaking people's hands, I feel like some people might have been dislocated because he's a big guy.

32:55He's like six to six three and he's got some girth to him. You know, he's a he's a big dude. And so it's it is cartoonish sometimes because he'll grab the arm and pull them. It's like it's like from a weightlifting video perspective, it's full range of motion with a row. And the great example is, I think it was one of the Supreme Court justices, Gorsuch, was one. You see he's in front of all these cameras and you go to shake his hand. He's like, pop. Is there any video of him trying to do that with Vladimir Putin? Because I'm very curious. No. Vlad would have handled that differently. He would have handled and Vlad would have flown because he, you know, all horseback riding pictures aside.

33:41With no shirt on. he knows what Sambo in a martial arts type of context he knows how to handle himself but size wise he's much smaller than Trump so just when you think about inertia and mass and physics if you're not expecting that there would have been an impact but also there's an odd respect between the two psychology matches in a way where it's almost like two people who have very dominant psychologies kind of utilize each other um i could see that you know it's a very interesting thing but yeah when it comes to that there's like the the harder than normal handshake the talking over people the positioning at the table i'm going to be at the head you're there sometimes it's the height of the table the size of the the table too behind the big table big desk you get a little table you're at the kid's table these types of games even positioning with regard to sunlight so am I going to put you in a room where you are uncomfortable the sun shining in your eyes not mine I remember talking to some folks who were in a procurement negotiation and they were put into this room that was really really hot and they were saying listen we're getting a deal today we're ending this negotiation now and they'll obviously the team had that had leverage was saying that come to our place we're doing that they gave them no drinks and just like heated them out you know goodness you know they're psyops my god and these are like conversations that negotiator teams are like okay so here here's what we're gonna do like yeah i actually i actually want to say a tactic that i see uh from kwami that is very interesting oh tell me and is that oh we're gonna spill some tea very tall and he's fit and when he goes to talk to you he's like hey what's up i bring donuts so you have like a big shock because you're thinking that one of the best negotiators on earth is going to be very intimidating very serious so he comes from the other way and he he talks he knows where he goes he knows where he goes but he's smiling he brings donuts he talks to you like very he makes you feel really really at ease so that he makes sure that But you know that when negotiators are very intimidating, then the regret rate is very high.

36:07So after the negotiation, you call back and say, no, no, I don't want the deal. You know, I was still manipulated and now I don't want the deal. But in this case, and not only Kwame, many, many negotiators that have come to the podcast, they make you feel really, really relaxed. relaxed so it's like really difficult to match the person that you're seeing in front of you with the level of friendship that they bring into the conversation so I think that this is a very smooth tactic because no one can see it and then people end up saying wow Kwame is like very open and then he gets really good deals because he makes people feel really really at ease and I think that's very, very smart and very subtle.

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39:18I use Quince and so should you. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was me. That's the best way to support the show. Totally. Yeah. So is that something you're doing on purpose or is that just you? It's both. Okay. Because it's more. Be honest. It is. What's the truth? Because if you chat with me and we hang, you'll see the like, you know, the lovable teddy bear side of me.

39:57Right. And then giving myself permission to be that guy. And I recognize the psychology, too, because I always say in my mind, I'm saying I'm going to be so warm and collaborative that it would make it abundantly clear to everybody that you're the bad guy in this situation. so I think about it when I'm very very very assertive in one thing where there is zero wiggle room or negotiate like negotiability on this and it is the frame game the psychological framing of the interaction the storyline for the interaction who are you yeah who am I what are we here to do I'm very flexible in other negotiations but that's subconscious subtle negotiation I will never lose it.

40:39Because a lot of times, most people, when they think about the psychology of negotiation, they're thinking tactics, strategies, what's actually said in the negotiation. They are completely unaware of the framing of the interaction as a whole. And a lot of times, the framing is the foundation upon which your strategy is built. Okay. And just to define our term, when you say framing, what are we talking about exactly? Okay. So this is the storyline. So coming into this conversation, I'm identifying your role, my role, and what we're here to do before anybody else can. So Lisa, so let's say it's a really contentious negotiation and you're meeting me for the first time in person.

41:18And I greet you with a big warm smile. I'm like, let's say it's a lawyer to lawyer negotiation. Lisa Marie, it's so great to meet you in person. Thanks for coming. Listen, I know our clients have been going at it for a really long time. And today, we have an opportunity to try to get them a little bit of peace. I don't know if we'll be able to figure this out, but I'm looking forward to working with you as kind of the adults in the room to see if we could make this work. So tell me, give me a little bit of background. How are you seeing this? And so it's really hard to come at me as an asshole at that point.

41:52Well, no, you're saying we are on the same team and we are sharing a higher mission. We're here to save these people. We're going to work together. We can do it. Like the leadership. You're like, and that is masterful. Exactly. And now let's say if they push back, they're like, listen, your client has done some incredibly horrendous things to my client. This is ridiculous. We're ready to litigate if we can't come to a deal today. I'll say, listen, I definitely understand where you're coming from. And I think a lot of mistakes have been made and we can work this out but if you feel the need to to go to war on this i complete i respect your decision to do that we still have 30 minutes left in this meeting so why don't we see what we can do you know it's like it makes it very very hard to keep that same energy and then there was a great book called the charisma myth um i believe is the author and she said her description of of of um of charisma was a blend of power and warmth.

42:53And so let's take it back. This is going to seem off topic, but I'll bring it back. So when I was doing the TED Talk in 2017, I was motivated a lot by vanity when I started exercising because I said, I'm going to be on stage. I've developed a dad bod. I'm going to start exercising. I will be beautiful. I will dazzle them all. I need to look good. And so I got in better shape. I was fitter. And then I said, well, I accomplished my fitness goals, but I feel mentally really clear, much clearer after exercising. So I don't want to stop. I've always been the skinny kid, but I wonder if I could put on more muscle.

43:30And then I recognized, because I'm always paying attention to how people treat me and just like analyzing people, analyzing body language, et cetera. And I realized that people became more deferential as I became bigger and stronger. And so for me, I realized that when people are contemplating power and status, at the end of the day, we're still social primates. So money, finance is one thing, but like physical size still will register. And so for me being 6 '2", 220, people aren't expecting that in person a lot of times because they only see the headshot. And I get that. I get it in person. Like, wow, you are way bigger than I thought you were.

44:13Right. So it's again, when you have those interactions, people are ready for a fight. They say, oh, the negotiation expert. Oh, my gosh, he's huge. I'm intimidated. I'm scared. And then he's just like loving on me. And then friends. I'm kind of confused. Yeah. Well, it's disarming because people are like, wait, wait, what's happening right now? And like, what information do I take it? But I could see that also sort of creating a receptivity if they don't know what's happening right now and that you can then define it for them. Exactly. So it's like, why wouldn't I accept this frame? Because all of the things that we talk about in psychology, trust, psychological safety, open body language, all of the all of the single signals that are signaling safety are conflicting with the status signals that make you feel scared.

45:07And it's like, if this person has power and status and he's really being intentional about making me feel safe and talking about how we win, let's see how far this goes. Oh my gosh, all the way to the conclusion and even after the conversation, we're still warm and friendly. I got more than I thought and I gave him way more than I thought I would and we're both better for it. Wow, let me tell people about this guy. And then the reputation does a lot of the persuasive work going forward. that there's almost even a subconscious desire to align with someone like you exactly i want to be a person who people want to work with where after you get enough data points where you see the the consistency between who you see online who you meet in person what i'm saying and the deals that i'm offering the offering and the creative solutions i'm creating you're saying well, it seems like selfishly it's in my best interest to work with him.

46:06Why wouldn't I? And I think it doesn't hurt to know, well, if I wanted to tango with Kwame, he's still a negotiation expert and lawyer. So it still gives me a lot of protection because even though I'm very open and warm, I'm not concerned about people taking advantage of me because I know I have the skills to protect myself. that's so good that that it's really backed up by a lot of power can i ask you another question yes okay i'm sorry so here's what i really want to know you are coming into this with so much intentionality and so many um not just natural gifts but also like a lot of skills and have such a strong track record like making the magic happen has there ever been anyone that either you could not touch with all these powers?

46:59Or was there someone that you did not want to do this with? Maybe two different stories. But who's immune to the powers of Kwame is what I want to know. I will say there were some mediations where I could not get through. So certified mediator done hundreds of mediations. and they there are sometimes where somebody is with a mediation people are coming to you on sometimes like their worst day of their life oh of course like no they're not out of charm affect labeling validation and acknowledgement can can get through that and then you just kind of have to deal with what you're dealing with there it wasn't rude or disrespectful um in most cases but it was just like oh this person is not not playing um let's just stick straight to business That's the best anybody could do under these circumstances.

47:53There were some people, I'll put this one to the side because it was court appointed mediation too. So you had all kinds coming through. And there were some times where there were people who I think were suffering from other issues. They would call and all you heard was that you could just see my, hear the voice. They don't know really who it is. They just think I'm a court employee and everything. and they just come with a lot of heat. You just take the heat. That's the role in the cases. But for people who actually know who I am interacting, I will say, at least a great look at Simone as I say this, I will say that there were, in the thousands of interviews that we've done, at least there were two people that I could not get through to.

48:46and one was very good at turning it on once the camera went on and when you listened to it you would not know you would not know and when the interview ended he just bounced and the first thing I said to Simone was Simone I guarantee you he does not know our names

49:17yeah he was uh you know a big deal and but i've heard that i'm not the only person who has had that experience when i've shared that with other podcasters behind the scenes they're like oh yeah that's that's this guy um but another one i think was i think it was a bit of neurodiversity to be honest numbers oriented it wasn't that he was mean he was just like it was just zero warmth at you know and um yes um but other than that i can't i'm really trying to think there was one time one time because we have to deal with some big clients every every big logo we have we have to remember we're negotiating with less leverage than google apple nasa intel whatever you know so they they swing a lot of weight and i was talking to one of my team members because we got a question and i was trying to think about how to create content about this what happens if somebody's threatening you in a negotiation or tries to intimidate you in a negotiation?

50:18And I was talking to her about it. I said, I don't even know if I'm qualified to answer this question because I feel like that doesn't happen to me. And she's like, sometimes it does. I've been in those calls with those big clients. You just think it's cute and it doesn't register to you. And she's like, yeah, she said other people in that same situation would have felt pressure you just don't because it it wasn't a threat so that was an interesting one so i think the fact that i have the skills to to fall back on um yeah it doesn't even register as something that's too difficult to deal with anymore so like the direct challenges i have answers for it in warm charismatic joking way where yeah doesn't register as a threat to me and i think it's disarming to them where they're like, why would I continue trying?

51:08That's so interesting, though, that your actual perception of what is happening in that moment is different. And you feel so like equipped to handle it as sort of like another day in the life, like this is what I do, not a big deal, that you are calm and managing it well. But it is like, not even experienced as a um taking a hit so to speak yeah yeah yeah yeah and i think that's why it's so important to to lean into the conversations because every the way i think about it every conversation is practice as long as i don't die you know as long as i manage to survive this conversation i'm going to have another one and as my goal is to maintain form as well as possible Sometimes the reps are heavy, but you just have to maintain the form.

51:58And so when I have that mentality, I don't perform with much pressure anymore. It's just about looking at the art and science of it, making sure everything that I do is foundational. Yeah. But, I mean, was it always that way for you? Again, because you have so many natural abilities, obviously. But earlier in your career, did you? No. Or did you? Okay. No, no, no. There's a path of development. This was learned. Yeah, this was definitely learned. Because I think about those years of being a younger lawyer, like just fresh out of law school, old reputation, nobody knows me, etc. You know, those years, there was a lot more to deal with.

52:42People were more willing to throw things at me. And then also, I did not have the same depth of skills. But then once I started to think about everything as a rep, then I said, okay, if I just dedicate my life to making every conversation better than the last, then at some point I'm going to get to a point where you're unbeatable. So good. Yeah. But even when you did have challenging moments that the mentality was, I am practicing and getting better every time, which also must have been so sustaining. Was there an experience, though, that you were like, that was a learning experience that was formative?

53:25You know what? There is one, and it doesn't really relate to negotiation in general, like the particular. But I think it relates to power and status and psychology in a really interesting way. So, oh, okay. Trivia question. Simo's answer, too. Let's see who comes up with the answer. If you're at a networking event, where do you find the introvert?

53:54At the bar? I don't know. Or stay by themselves? Simone, what's your answer? Wow. No, I don't know. I don't know. The bathroom. Oh, yeah. That is the refuge. Not in the room. Yeah. So go hang out in the bathroom. Yep. So there was one networking event that I went to. And it was my boss at the time. She was getting an award at this really fancy club in Columbus. And we were going there. Fancy, fancy club, et cetera. Big wigs are there. And I get to the room. And I drove with her and her and her husband to the event. So now I'm in the room and I have the like the least status in the room, like the lowest status.

54:43And so I'm trying to talk to different people. And even when I would see people who are my friends, I'm like, oh, thank God, a friend I could talk to. They would chat with me for a little bit and then I would see them look over my shoulder and see somebody higher status and say, oh, OK, hey, great time with you. going to go and um and i remember in that in like probably 30 minutes of networking i went to the bathroom like five times because there were so many times where i was looking around nobody was talking to me i was like oh okay i don't want to be a user by himself i just go to the bathroom okay we're going to come back we're going to find somebody to talk to talk to them then they see a bigger fish and they go talk to that person and again my boss was the ride and she was getting an award so she's going to be there the whole time and trapped was just stuck trapped there and i said this will never happen again and so i said i'm going to figure out what it is that will draw people to me in these situations because this is deeper than just having human value like hey i'm a good person like no what is it that they're seeing and so that's when i started to think about like the psychology of status, psychology and respect, power, perceptions of power and things like that.

55:58What is it that I'm not showing that makes people literally, truly, objectively see no value in communicating with me in this instance? So I said, I don't, I remember telling a friend soon after, cause she was at the event and she's like, Oh Kwame, I'm so sorry. I was like, no, that's it. Kwame Christian is not somebody you pity. I'm going to figure this out. And the next time you see me, best believe I will have. I'm going to win this networking. That's right. Never happened again. So, yeah, that was one primitive experience. Then what happened? How did you win networking? What did you do differently?

56:42I have to know. I disappeared for like years. And went into the cave. Is there like a training montage? Yes, insert training montage. And it started building the American Negotiation Institute. I was like, we have learned our lesson. We are going into the dojo and we are building something special. And so, yeah, that was the strategy. So, I mean, that's a long game, though. You're like, all right, if I want to be in these situations and have influence, I need to come in having built something that other people value and want to be able to be perceived as powerful and valuable in these moments.

57:24So it's not like you just got a new haircut or like, you know, some new little mustache wax or like you – I'm going to build an empire. And next time you see me, you're going to want to be my best friend because you earned it. Okay. Well, that's not like a, you know, one, two, three little listicle. You have to let go, build a really successful business. Takes time. And fun fact, fun fact. One of the first things that I was focusing on was my LinkedIn profile. I said, okay, how do I redesign this? And the big thing that I was focusing on for many years, like at least a year, was the connection, the amount of connections that I had.

58:02And I said, my goal is to get over 500 connections, because if I get over 500 connections, then nobody knows exactly how many connections I have, because it'll just say 500 plus. And it's like that, that'll show me. Baby steps. Goals. Goals are so important. Yes. We have successfully achieved that. Thankfully. But yeah. What about you? When you look back at the moments that made you, do you have a moment that really stands out? Oh, so many, so many of them. And good and bad. You know, I think that there's so much to be learned through all life experiences. I mean, I definitely think part of my origin story, what launched me on this whole thing, was a moment.

58:53Actually, we just passed the anniversary at the time of this recording for 9-11, being a young person. And sadly, my cousin Jimmy worked at Cantor Fitzgerald, which if you recall, was one of the organizations. I think it was one of the first places that got hit. And so we lost him. But, you know, it was one of these moments that was really powerful. It was terrifying. but it was also like, you know, I did memento mori, right? Like, remember you will die, which sounds so morbid, but there's a lot to support it. I mean, philosophers, Carlos Castaneda, I mean, writing about it, when we are in contact with the fact that we're not going to be here forever, maybe we're not going to be here sooner than you think, it can be really galvanizing and put you in touch with your values.

59:50in a very motivating way. And so I had that experience with my cousin. It really pushed me into contact with this existential crisis almost, being a young person and like, I don't know what I'm doing and really focusing in on, I really like helping people. I like being part of their process. It felt meaningful to me to be able to help other people in their development. And so that is why I went to counseling school in the first place was that like meaning that came from my experience of not just loss but a traumatic loss because it wasn't just that somebody passed away. But, you know, young guy minding his own business left the house in the morning, had no idea that something like that would happen.

1:00:39So I think it's the unpredictability of the end too was part of that for me. So that was definitely impactful. Wow. Wow. Wow. I'm sorry for your loss. And I tell you, what an incredible testament and tribute to him, too, because in his passing, you've given so many people new life with the work that you do. But I think we all have that. You know, I mean, every single person experiences loss, experiences hardship. And I think that there are some really interesting things that we can do with those moments. I mean, obviously, as you've done in your own life to think about who do I want to be in this moment, but also like what is this pushing me in contact with if I let it?

1:01:25I think there's so much of our culture where we have demonized or pathologized, honestly, all kinds of dark emotions, anger, fear, grief, loss, anxiety. But like when we're able to actually let that in and what is this telling me about me? Grief is a great example of that. And, you know, so like part of what I do these days is training therapists in coaching psychology, which is different than clinical psychology. And so typically a therapist will view a dark emotion as a form of psychopathology, especially when people are stuck in it. But in a coaching mindset, it is, tell me what about this is true?

1:02:15If we listened to this, what would it mean? And so let it in. Now, of course, if there are clinical mental health conditions, our feelings are no longer reliable reporters. And so we need to figure out, is this major depressive disorder? And we handle that differently. But in the experience of grief, all grief is is telling us what's important to us. What do we care about? What do we want? Yeah, that's all it is. Illuminating our values. Illuminating what we love. that's powerful so and the the three words that i'm holding to are if we let oh for if we let it yeah right if we let it and so right so let's go deeper on that yeah because it sounds like there's something there but there is some kind of acceptance or release that needs to happen in order for us to avail ourselves to it.

1:03:12So dig into that. Yeah, that's a really good point. And also, we need to understand, like, where is this really coming from? And so we need to rule out things that will scramble the antenna, because a lot of real deal clinical mental health conditions, they change the way people feel, and they change the way people think. And so if you are in that state, you shouldn't do what I'm about to say because it won't be productive and it might make it worse. So that's really important. Like when we were talking at the beginning about the importance for it to have a really well-qualified professional walk into this with you.

1:03:49So no shade on life coaches. I think there are a lot of them that do fantastic work, but the clinical capabilities to really know what you're looking at and how to treat that is sometimes not there. So I honestly think coaches need more support from clinical people. Right now it's like vampires and werewolves. Like they hate each other. Can't be in the same room. But we're going to change that. I might need your negotiation skills to bring people to the table. But to say, you know, to lean in, I think is, first of all, to be receptive to the fact that there might be a lot of value in dark emotions that we have been socialized to dislike, to try to get away from.

1:04:30If I feel this way, it means something is wrong. So those are all barriers to being able to come closer, friend. What are you trying to tell me right now? And so much is unlocked when we can help people do that. But it requires a lot of emotional safety, a lot of acceptance, because people can become very afraid of their own feelings. Ooh. Yeah. That's a really interesting way to think about it. And very meta, too, because it's fear, which is a feeling of other feelings, too. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So say more about that. Well, I think, again, our socialization. And I think I don't want to overgeneralize, certainly not on gender lines.

1:05:16And many times I think that women have had more acceptance and almost coaching around feelings and what to do with them. and it's kind of okay to feel this way, right? Compared to men, where I think just a lot of the messaging is, nope, shut it down, like bad, get away from it. And I will also say that in my experience, men are just as emotionally alive and capable as women are. I think that socialization can create some differences. But I think that because of these messages and the fact that it's uncomfortable, I mean, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel positive and pleasurable when we're in the grips of like intense anger or fear that we can believe that something bad is happening.

1:06:05It's destructive. It's wrong. And so what people try to do then is change the way that they feel. and avoidance i mean you can go into like the substance use route that's also very effective even things like self-harm and cutting as just people trying to change the way that they feel and so to create like safety and understanding and like what you were saying trying to shape the narrative of like there is value here um but but again this is why it's experiential kwami like you can't tell somebody that and they're like oh okay light bulb like people actually need to be in the presence of a guide who, like through that physicality even, it's going to like, I'm actually not going to let you get away right now.

1:06:46We're going to stay here, but I'm going to help you feel safe enough to do this right now so that you can experience what happens next, which would not happen if they were alone. Yeah, you're so right. And especially when you think about the propensity to experience emotions, I feel that we both genders, males and females they often they they experience the same thing but it's the willingness and the perception of social acceptance around the expression right of those emotions and something that i don't think is said enough is that i think men are often jealous of the fact that women can express themselves more where it feels like it's awesome yeah because it's like man i wish i could share more.

1:07:35I wish it was okay if I could share more. And then, but then there's also too, the reality that when we think about the way that people are socialized, there's often a social penalty associated with male emotional expression. And sometimes within a, let's make it easy here, like a heterosexual relationship. Sometimes we don't recognize the amount of, it's not just the amount of emotional intelligence and strength that's required to be vulnerable but there's a high degree of emotional intelligence and strength that is required in order to receive somebody's vulnerability and sometimes within that relationship there's a social penalty that the woman gives to the man though the man says you know what never again we're not going to do this true yeah have Have you seen that in your work?

1:08:28Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it's common for people to say they want one thing. And then when somebody actually tries, I mean, it's so hard for me as a marriage counselor to see somebody trying vulnerably to share something and having an authentic moment that is then like slapped down if there are those consequences. and so that is also something that needs to be managed experientially how do we keep two people safe in these moments in order to show them because the other thing when it does come to I think male emotionality yes all the capacities and all the same experiences socialization is different but also sometimes a skills gap because they haven't had opportunities to kind of practice and and figure out how to do that that is very developmental, which again is very easy to pathologize as a therapist, by the way.

1:09:26So we're talking about a coaching mindset here. How do we help you broach this conversation or know what you feel and then say it out loud? And why is that valuable? Because even that might be missing sometimes. Yeah. There's a lot here. Yes. And in a culture – wait, I just need to say one more thing. in a culture that is so primed right now to demonize men in a way that is also very different, Kwame. Even the last three, four, five years, I am seeing so much of that. I feel like that matters. Yeah, it does. And, you know, to that point, it's very easy for us to think about this just as an American phenomenon.

1:10:08But I have been I'm not an expert, obviously, in this. But as it goes beyond our borders, there are gender wars happening in other cultures. I've seen some research on the effect it's happening in South Korea. Really? And yeah, it's having significant issues. And it's part of what's the fertility crisis that they're having. The replacement rates is very, very low, like cataclysmic in one of their major concerns. So it's really interesting. But again, it kind of circles back to what we're talking about with the algorithm, too, because the most toxic content is what goes furthest. And if you are a woman who has been hurt by a man and there have been many or you're a man who has been hurt by a woman and there have been many, you're the algorithm will hear your complaints and give you what you want.

1:10:59And then we have the we could say toxic femininity on one side and Andrew Tate adjacent characters on the other side. right yeah i hear you yeah yeah and then when somebody is essentially you know radicalized it's difficult to bring them back it really is such good points okay so i i am curious though like so as a a podcast host yeah how because okay so what i've experienced on love happiness and success more and more is like some people coming at typically women with this like, you know, mindset and they want to talk about, you know, women, innocent victims and all these terrible things that men are doing.

1:11:44And there was actually an interview that I scheduled not, um, it's probably a month or two ago. And sometimes, you know, I get booked with people and I don't know a ton about them, but as part of my research project, like they sent me the book, started flipping through it. And as I was reading this book, I was like, oh no, I don't think I can do this because it was all about the division of labor and how women are, you know, like put it put into these almost like servitude roles and expectations of their relationships and and men kind of like, you know, leave it all to the women and whatever. And so which I think is certainly some people's experience.

1:12:21I'm saying it never happens. But anyway, so this woman came on and I just straight up, I was like, I don't know if we should do this interview today. And let me tell you why. because this conversation that you're going to have with me is not going to go the way that you think it's going to go because I have different experiences. I have different perspectives and I will be talking about that. And she was actually like really receptive and she's like, really? This is a sociologist who had done a lot of research and so had like evidence to support this. It turned into the most fascinating conversation that was really balanced.

1:12:56And And yeah, so that was a save and it was really productive. But does that ever come up on your podcast? Like when you're talking to people who are sort of representing points of view and you're like, I don't want to be part of that algorithm. Oh, such a great point. So kudos to Simone and the team. They do a good job of filtering. So honestly, no. And we've done, what, over a thousand interviews. That's a lot of podcasts. Yeah. But I'm your favorite. Oh, 1 ,000%. Okay. Just checking. Just checking. No doubt here. All right. Because I'm thinking there have been times where I might say, oh, that's a tactic I wouldn't use.

1:13:38There was one time we cut one of the things that somebody said completely out because it was just flagrantly wrong and I wanted to protect him. Yeah. Simone, you might remember this. Great interview otherwise. And this was not, it was not even topical. This was about three years ago ish, and it was not even part of the topic. And he just said,

1:14:05it's so funny. Okay. This guy said, and listen, let me tell you something about AI. People are worried about AI taking your jobs. AI will not take a single job. I guarantee you, AI will never take a single job listen anybody listening to this podcast if ai takes your job email me i'll send you 50 bucks i was like this bro is going to go broke instantly because i was like there was news a month ago about thousands of layoffs so that's the only time somebody said somebody flagrantly wrong we're like we got we cannot that's good yeah but you're you're protecting him. It was very nice of you. That was wild.

1:14:48But thankfully, no. But I think it's mainly because of our vetting process. We had one person who made it through and we updated our vetting process and I had to cancel day of and I had to tell him straight up why without naming names. It's somebody who has accomplished a lot and did a lot of good work but then let's say caught a case and was not treating women very well and the like there was no conviction but there was enough evidence there was like some international jurisdictional things that made that difficult and I said hey man listen I apologize because the interview was coming up in two minutes and I was like, hey, listen, we cannot do this and we can't do it for these reasons and I apologize just straight up and talk to him and his booking agent about it.

1:15:44That was awkward. But he just can't do that. Cannot be seen like platforming or supporting something like that that hasn't been fully addressed. But yeah, it doesn't matter. I think we've been pretty fortunate. That's awesome though. But I love it that there's a responsibility to your community and to algorithm as a whole to be able to be careful about whose message you promote. 100%. Wow. Okay, great. Simone, let's bring you in. And also, kudos. I think I might like you, Lisa Marie, because this is our longest interview. Yeah. See? I wanted to win Kwame's favorite guest. And I'm going to take that as a win.

1:16:30All right. Well, I think that the good chemistry that you have together is because you both are two sides of the same coin. It's like the same message with different envelopes. Let's start by Kwame's definition of negotiation. He says that a negotiation is every conversation where at least one person wants something. So it is relationships. It's just relationships. So what would you tell, if you had to join forces to give an advice to someone who tells you, I'm not a conflictive person. I just avoid, if you take advantage of me, I just let it pass, avoid, avoid once, avoid twice, three times, four times.

1:17:19But if you do it 10 times, then I become a monster and I explode. explodes, but I'm not conflictive at all. It's just that I am pacifist, but I have a limit. So what would you tell to that person? Well, for starters, I'd be a little bit curious if there was a passive aggressive stuff going on in between the first time and the 10th time when the explosion happens. But what you're describing is actually a very common pattern for very nice men, where they believe that they are protecting the relationship and doing the right thing by not engaging in conflict because, again, they're afraid of the feeling.

1:18:02Anger is bad. Conflict is bad. So the new idea is that you're not doing anybody any favors by avoiding these things. In fact, here's why it could actually be damaging to your relationship. Instead, here's how to have a constructive, collaborative conversation that improves your relationship, but it starts by recognizing, oh, I don't like this, or I feel frustrated or annoyed. How do I broach this in a constructive way? And that's that skills gap. A lot of people really don't know how to do it. And so it's not a conscious thing, but after a while they give up, they explode. And that is actually quite destructive to a relationship, especially when that becomes a pattern.

1:18:44But people do not have, they don't know that a lot of times. They're just doing the best they can. Yeah. It's kind of like a pressure cooker. Pressure cookers are great for making food. They also, unfortunately, can be used to make bombs. Right? That is one of the things that people could use it for. Don't look it up. Don't look it up. Absolutely. I will track you. Okay. So this is, it's true. The thing is you have to have a pressure release valve. to Lisa Marie's point, there's a reality that if you think you're holding it in, there's probably some emotional leakage that's happening in the meantime.

1:19:22Always. You know, and so you're taking those little digs, hiding behind plausible deniability. No, I didn't mean anything by it, et cetera. You know, and so again, you're not doing anybody a service, you know. And so for me, it's I like to give people the opportunity to to adjust and course correct, because the most loving thing you can do is let the person know the impact that they are having on you. Because think about if you were doing something unknowingly hurting your partner, wouldn't you want the same respect given to them to you, right? So when you think about it from the other perspective, then it becomes very clear that what you're doing is destructive, you know?

1:20:00So just keep that in mind as you, I don't know if you can hear my kids downstairs. I love it. They're practicing it. They're telling you somebody's unhappy. Exactly. Kai is trying so hard to keep Dominic quiet. And now we have some emotional leakage from Dominic. So let's land the plane. So Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, hypothetically, if you knew how, if you could give somebody a piece of advice, What is one thing that they could do or listen to to get more happiness, success and love in their life?

1:20:46Hmm.

1:20:54I think there's two things. Okay. The first is get more curious about yourself and other people. This idea, why does this make sense right now? And be open to the answers. But I think the other thing is this idea that change is possible. And it requires intentional effort. And you can have a different experience. But you have to believe you can. listen uh that's all well and good that's fine as an answer but the right answer is listen to the love happiness and success podcast come on how much easier of a setup could i have given you you know but that's i have failed you're right see i'm so i'm not good at this it's got like eight million reviews it's such a good show you're so sweet yes Yes, come listen to my podcast.

1:21:55Well, you know what? Because I have people like Kwame come on the show. And I mean, really, people who know what they're talking about and give good advice and are also very, very generous. My favorite guests are the people who are really here to serve. It goes in with that values mission. And that's what I'm trying to do with every episode. There we go. That's true. We will put a link in the description. And we'll have the link where we were having a lover's quarrel. And fun fact, we remember when you talked about the guest on your podcast who was talking about the asymmetry of invisible labor at home.

1:22:27Yeah. If you remember, that was the negotiation we had. I was your wife. Well, because, no, really, I'm the dirt bag at my house. So that was very easy for me to do. Like, if anybody's going to get yelled at for not unloading the dishwasher, it's going to be me. this has been delightful as always thank you so much for coming on the show such a pleasure you're so much fun to hang out with and you too simone you're gonna be on my favorite people list from now on