He Lost a £15M Deal at 25 and Slept on His Mum's Floor - How He Built It Back

0:00So I slept on the floor in my mother's bedroom.

0:02James Burtt: You're about to do a sale for 15 million quid? Yeah, I was back on the bedroom floor, yeah. Wow. I was running the show, just couldn't get it to monetise. Let's put some protein in it and change the shape. Why would I want to put a protein sale? And I took them to an expo for body coaching. I've got a stand with two or three foil bags. Hello, sir, what's that? I want some protein crisps. I'll buy some containers. And I went, I think we've got a viable business here. Some guy wants to buy two containers. That was the world's first protein crisps. It seems like you're unusually good at predicting trends.

0:30James Burtt: Is that a superpower or has it actually hampered your career because you see it so early that it's actually too early? That's a good question. Are you too trusting of people? Yeah, I'm a shit type of guy. So have you not learned a lesson? You've got to back yourself above anything and anybody else, including your family. It sounds like there's a wake of damaged relationships. Yeah. Is it worth it? Yeah. Wow. Is there not a part of you that goes, don't make a big enemy and be grateful for where you're at. Where's the fun in that? I suspect that might be the answer.

1:06James Burtt: So as you can see, we have got an amazing show lined up. But before we get into the main content, please, please, please do me a favour. I know I'm begging here, but all of the podcasters and YouTubers have to do it. Please subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. And if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, click the follow button at the top right hand corner of your app and it will mean that you'll never miss an episode of Boo and the Brand. and you've been massively helping us out as well. Let's get into it. The whole premise of this podcast is the stories behind interesting brands and businesses and more importantly, the people behind those brands and businesses.

1:37James Burtt: So who is the person behind this? It started when I was eight, as in my father had a mental breakdown. So my mother had to open a sandwich shop. Otherwise, we'd be being homeless, right? so wow that's a start so so i was dragged at the age of eight to pack sandwiches and then go to school my mother two brothers weren't why were you the eldest actually the eldest right right so i think that instill that you're dealing with adults at a really young age right that affects your mind when you realize a kid yeah um and then you sort of go to about 13 you know, 14 hours, you know, want to be in business, want to, you know, earn, get out of school.

2:27I thought school was a waste of time. I thought, you know, teaching, why is history going to teach me? And my father once said to me, you're a medial. I went, what's a medial? You weren't the most stupid in the school. I went, eh, I'm not. So then became the top of the school the next year, just to prove a point.

2:47James Burtt: I think we've seen a pattern already. Because of the coffee we've had earlier in the conversation, I was 15 playing table tennis in the sixth form block. Just fucking about, right? And I saw an advert for a traded commodity trader in textiles. Two A-levels of foreign language. I thought, I can do that. So I was 15, no A-levels, right? So I applied for the job. Got our first interview. got a second interview my letter came through offering me the job my dad goes what's that i mean it's a job i'm going to be a commodity trader he went you've got to be 18 and speak i have two levels in foreign language well i'll lie they'll know you're not since you're but they'll know you're actually sure yeah i've seen you die of birth so ah uh went back to the place it's called john dawson hi john this is a quick question on what basis did you give me the job.

3:49I'm like, what do you mean? Well, it wasn't academics. I'm not showing my exam results. On the interview, right? On the interview, yeah. I've got a deal for you. It was a five-year course from the age of 18 to 23. I'll do it before I'm 18.

4:12what i'm 15 i've not taken no levels i can't speak phone language just give me a shot and i'll do it for 10 pound a week less you've got the job no yeah so i did that five year thing in the three years i got a bit restless and bored so i went to um to be a sales director at 19 that was quite stressful right and then at um 20 years old i moved next door one to a packaging designer i said what do you do i do packaging design that looks quite a lot less stress let's do a packaging design company you don't know fuck all me about packaging i mean you don't know that about selling design let's set up set up third bed design 20 years old wow 22 I had about 15 staff working for me growing like fuck right went to the acquisition trail I was called the woolman the man from wool that doesn't know anything about design but I was like fast growing fast growing fast growing and at 23 24 I had 45 staff working for me I was running around building running around never stop and somebody stopped me once took a picture of me it was called Glenn took a picture of me sat down what are you doing take a picture of me that's the first time I've seen you sit down in three months anyway we built that company

5:47and it was going to do a reverse takeover into ATP communications in three weeks I don't know the exact figure but it was a lot it was like for 10, 15 25 year old kid it was like 10, 15 million quid the whole deal's done, right, done. The week before, I got a phone call from Bank of Scotland to graham my FD. Listen, we just had X amount put in, but we're going to reduce your overdraft by that amount. So I went down the bank. Right, that's what you're doing here. Okay, do me a favour. Getting another three or four hundred grand, the deal's going ahead next week. Get another three or four hundred thousand pounds and we'll hold the checks at the time, yeah?

6:36It's like two and a half million overdraft. Okay, we've got three or four hundred grand in. Next day, we've reduced the overdraft again. Three or four hundred grand. Went back in. Thursday. I'm like, what's going on here? And the lawyers went, he's going to fuck you. sign a PG Andrew and we'll we'll give you my word no put it in writing who's this

7:00James Burtt: the bank manager the bank manager yeah it was a bit of shenanigans going on because they wanted out with marketing and some of the ad agency was involved it was a bit annoying right so on the Friday I'd shut it I thought right this is not going to end so I then was going to buy the company back right my son wasn't even born Andre's mum was pregnant Friday, Saturday, Sunday worked and then the senior management came to my office I went, listen Andrew we're thinking about this new structure and we want to be owners I went, well you got the place in this shit the first place, I tell you what I'm going to do put my stuff in my bag put it in my Porsche, I drove off I went, see ya I'll just walk to her without the deal being done without any money that's the whole thing fuck yeah so I'm deep in the shit right so I'm thinking about what do I do now Andre wasn't even born so I used to like dealing penny shares right but I dealt with them on the screen on the BBC yeah yeah so I thought I'll start dealing penny shares I'd had about a grand or 2 ,000 pounds I started dealing penny shares i just started them on yeah then i read somewhere about how the stock exchange works and how the reuters systems works which actually at the time was through a phone line not digital right then i read somewhere that reuters were bringing out um satellite so you capture the data but the stock exchange couldn't do it for a year right it was a 10th way to change so i bolted a massive satellite dish outside of my house and i thought and i was ahead of the curve i'm like i'm getting data fast like pulling call options pulling call options i started to accrue my money up a little bit then my stockbroker must have been saying to some other gears this guy's like head of the curb but they don't know I've got this right dish right so he's sending clients to me yeah I didn't touch the money it's on an advisory basis um and that accrued and accrued and accrued but then one day one of the clients lost some money which he's doing the stock exchange yeah um he says you're apparently not supposed to give me advice yeah but you come to gym you better like a decent bit of money last year I'm going to report you because I don't want to lose that X amount so you reported me so I got pulled out on the stock exchange for interview and I had to stop so you sort of like an unofficial financial advisor on markets yeah I was yeah and I had to stop so then that's like right now what do I do right um I think the Andres most of the time had enough of me.

10:12So we were moving house and I got in the car and she literally says, where are you going? What do you mean, where am I going? Should we not come with us? I was that oblivious to the world, yeah?

10:24James Burtt: Wow. So I gave my son a kiss. I called my mum. I said, have you got a spare bedroom? She went, yeah, why? I said, I'm coming back. So what's in the spare bedroom? so it's full of ladies underwear that your brother's selling well fuck it I'll sleep on the floor so I slept on the floor in my mother's spare bedroom having been bringing back to do a sale for 15 million quid yeah I was back on the bedroom floor wow so from her kitchen table I thought of another design company I just got back into design again but getting mad back so I'm 28 years old man it's like it was a crushing it was crushing so Ben I've told you before I was bullied as a child from the because I'm a dark skin people thought I was Pakistani so I always wanted to self protect myself so I thought I'm going to go back to the gym more and somebody believed it had a failing gym so I thought I'd go and help him so I slept on this gym floor and rescued this gym yeah and got into the gym a bit more the design company's going okay not breaking from it going okay and then sort of fast forward that sort of decade I was at a bodybuilding show and I just made a comment and some guy says how do you know that I can see no no how do you know that I can just tell you've got a good eye will you be a judge why do I want to be a bodybuilding judge but the ego wearing the blue blades you know so of course I became the head judge in the UK for bodybuilding right within nine months I'm the head judge in the UK challenging the president for his name and on that way I met all the top legends of the game Ronnie Cloman, Dorian Yates, all my good friends and I'm thinking to myself all their knowledge all their knowledge and nobody's got it right like they can't give the knowledge out to the world because there was no real big Instagram then it's like 16 years ago so I said to um Don Ronnie we're going to launch a company called Body Coaches it's the first online training platform ever what we're going to do is we're going to have you on a video and we're going to launch a site where people and your fans can subscribe and they list you they ask you questions in the it's on youtube they ask you questions in the portal and you say andrew from leeds has just asked that this is your answer it's called bodycut the first online training platform you invented live streaming and twitch for for the body sector before before it was a thing i did yeah so 16 years ago so that's 2010 so end of the 20 the early 2010s yeah it's on youtube but so the first one was really oh she did get up and running yeah oh wow i got up and running right the first one i actually chose the wrong sport right because bodybuilders aren't exactly the attentive to some detail right the first one like dorian's on his on the camera i'm in his house i went you're on live and what do you mean i had to walk up under his desk and press the play button.

13:57Yeah. You know. So, but the concept was there. It was live. I just didn't monetize. Travel around the world with these, it's like that I was running the show, right? Just couldn't get it to monetize. I couldn't get the subscriptions to work. Mm. And after about two years, I thought, oh my God, I've literally not paid a bill. Yeah. like my mortgage um notification under my bed just ignoring the fact i thought shit this is not going to work this or i need to survive until it does work go back to do some design work so i called somebody who i did some previous design work for i said i need some design work can i come over to your office so i got to his office i need some design work to continue my body coaches.

14:54And on his desk with some cereal. Just some normal cereal. Just what's that? It's cereal. Why? Listen, I've got an idea. Let's put some protein in it and change the shape. Why would I want to put a fucking protein in the cereal? Because I'm convinced. proteins get a trend into mass and the crisp is a perfect sour and we did some prototypes that taste like shit proper shit and I took them to an expo for body coaches all the top bottles there I've got a stand with two or three foil bags the whole focus is body coaches right this is a secondary if it works yeah and um A guy came up from Kuwait. Hello, so what's that?

15:52I mean, it's a protein crisp. I'll buy some containers. Uh-oh. What? It's like, really? I mean, you know, the price, we could not make it. Nothing. It's like fucking nothing, yeah? It's just fucking foil bags, just foil bags. So I called him up. And I went, I think we've got a viable business here. Some guy wants to buy two containers from Kuwait. So we set up. me and him and that this was you and the design no me and the manufacturer oh okay that was the world's first protein crisp

16:26James Burtt: and I took it down to all the expos and so people saying it's not it's not going to work Andrew no one's going to get a protein crisp I said the future's convenient protein I showed it to Ronnie actually Ronnie this is the future and that's not going to work Andy we do some convenient protein what's that what do you do Ronnie and Dorian said the same you see we make a we make a microwave of pudding i'm like well that's not very convenient a microwave yeah so can't grab and go a microwave milk in you so it kicked off um and that was called protein bites that was 14 years ago and that's what's now become novo that's evolved as hell yeah so there's a lot to unpack there a lot to unpack in that in that sort of summary of the journey it seems like you're unusually good at predicting trends so you kind of saw the body coaching thing before it was a thing probably the tech the systems the wi-fi the bandwidth the speed wasn't there to deliver yeah the concept in reality same with um well as it turns out which i didn't know before you know this whole thing of getting the reuters bloody satellite on the side of the house and getting the data before everybody else can get it and hedging the market with additional knowledge that's early to market the protein thing like now as we listen in 2026 well protein of course proteins can be big but when you're talking about 14 years ago it wasn't it was that obvious and it was only yeah tubs and it was uh gnc and it would have been the bodybuilding and the serious athlete community for peak performance not for the everyday person who now if you go into every shop i mean it's got protein aisles protein fridges protein this that and the other everything's got added protein in it these days so do you think that has been early at predicting stuff is that a superpower or has it actually hampered your career because you see it so early that it's actually too early it's a good question

18:31James Burtt: um probably hampered okay my friend let's just take a little pause there because i think something in this conversation has already flagged for me. I want to make sure that us lot listening to this collaboratively together don't miss it because this whole podcast for me is about meeting amazing people and having tactical, practical conversations so that yes, the listening audience, i.e. you, get some value from it. But I also watch these shows back to make edit notes and stuff. And I learn as I go and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. I can implement that into my brand and my business as well.

19:00James Burtt: I think what Andrew's talking about, and we've mentioned it a few times here is the fact that he's been early to quite a lot of stuff. Or has he? Was the model just not that good? Now, obviously, with retrospect, you can look at all the stuff he's done with, like the body coaches and those kind of things and gone, yeah, that would have been a smash hit success, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, even, but 15, 20 years ago, it was before the tech was available. So maybe he was too far ahead. Maybe he was too forward thinking, which sounds like a weird thing to say. Or maybe the model just wasn't that good.

19:32James Burtt: And I think that that's something that's really important to work out within your own brand of business. I know I've definitely done this a number of times. One famous example was I spent an entire summer. I literally didn't go outside. I moved into a lovely apartment, as they call it in America, but it's a block of flats, but a block of flats with a beautiful swimming pool in the back garden in South East London. I know what you're thinking, swimming pool in East London sounds a bit random and it was a bit random, but anyway, I had this beautiful summer of sunshine. My wife was away on a work trip.

20:00James Burtt: She was away in Australia for like six weeks. So I could have had the time of my life, you know, buying a pool, barbecues, cocktails. I pretty much didn't leave the desk, which was a dining room table in a two bedroom flat in Southeast London, because I was convinced that I'd stumbled across an incredibly valuable model. At the time I was involved in property management. I was like, why is it not possible that you could work out what the local selling prices are so that you know what you could then potentially offer on a property? Now, This is the days before Rightmove had really kicked off. I don't think Zoopla was even a thing at this point in time, but I was utterly, utterly convinced on that.

20:36James Burtt: So my model, right, and I'm laughing as I'm thinking about, I'm going to make myself sound like a right idiot here, but let's just go with it anyway. We're all friends here, aren't we? My model was to, and I basically did it myself first, and then I was going to roll it out to outsourcers. So I was going to use VA outsourcers in the Philippines to basically go onto land registry to find all the local sold prices, the local sold houses, because you could see that on Rightmove, but you couldn't see the price they'd sold for at that point in time. So they were going to go back, was my thinking, and look at the last 10 sold prices in any particular postcode area, then go to land registry, buy the land registry information, which would have the sale price on it for each of the postcode areas in the UK.

21:14James Burtt: You can see the issue with the model here, was to then work out what the average would be. Then people could buy that data. And what did I call it? I can't remember what I called it. Invest Insight. There you go. It's called Invest Insight. I was utterly, utterly convinced this was the future of property. I spent six months on it. Every single day, I didn't see sunshine. I didn't go outside. I didn't enjoy the pool or have cocktails or barbecue. And then guess what happened? Rightmove rolled out sold prices. Zoobla came along with sold prices. On the market came along with sold prices. And part of the USP was that they just had all that data in the back end and they could just put it out into the marketplace.

21:49James Burtt: Now, in that example there, was I early or was it just a bit of a shit model. Maybe it was a little bit of both, but I think it's important to know the difference between the two. As I say, you can find yourself in a situation a lot of times in business where you're convinced that it's just not working yet. It's just not clicking yet. The model just doesn't quite work yet. If I did this and for that, maybe it'd be better. Are you early or is your model a little bit shit? Now, I know that's a bit of a hard pill to swallow potentially, but I think sometimes you have to hear these hard truths to understand actually which one of that particular fence you're sitting on.

22:19James Burtt: Anyway, let's get back to the conversation. I mean, we launched in America we launched like into GNC America right it's like seven containers on the water right like one landing and that was our big break in GNC America yeah and I got a phone call two weeks later and um I saw she was getting splattered I went you're getting fucked what do you mean getting fucked and Quest had seen what we were doing in the UK Quest launched. Got Novo. Put them to the back of the store and put Quest. Oh, right. Because they obviously had Quest bars. Again, this is before Grenade duels who we've had on, who's a mutual friend of ours, has been on the podcast before and she was, you know, they were watching what the US market was doing and then kind of reiterated it.

23:17I took a foil bag to my son. He was at German University. a big foil bag what's that dad oh it's protein crisps it's the future he's eat fucks nobody's gonna eat protein crisps dad's at it again his friend was there right dad's at it again it's the future and i'm on a class on his wedding about two years ago when you write about that protein we all eat yeah um i think it's a challenge when you when you when you ahead of the curve because you're always pioneering and you often think your product is right when hindsight that product 14 years ago obviously tastes like dog shit you never get a repeat consumer um the i so the idea of consumption was good but the the true reality of

24:09James Burtt: experience was pretty shit but it also has to start somewhere doesn't it there has to be a pioneer who does something shit for the rest of the market to catch up in essence doesn't it you know like edison famously went through 10 000 light bulbs if you'd gone to you expected the perfect light bulb first time around then none of us would be sitting here with lights on in the room today would we so it was it was going against the ground jules went jules went sweet and i went sweet and i went safe and i stuck to my guns on safe we'd launched bits and boxes meantime time and that particular business partner of mine called me up one day and he says i want to buy a certain cereal and i don't think we should buy a certain cereal i won't mention it but i don't think we should buy it would buy the brand a cereal yeah and um he said i want to buy it i said i don't think it's a good idea don't count me in there's a bit of friction between us okay uh he was a bit of a control freak which believe it or not i'm not right it's like um and he's i got to south africa on a business trip i was with him two days before and i got an email saying we'll stop in supply all right all right what do you mean you stop in supply yeah i want to buy the seal coming I focus the sales now.

25:33And by the way, you've got to pay them back over. You know what I mean?

25:38James Burtt: So the business partner is the manufacturer that you've got your first prototype with? Wow. Boom me. Like, boom again, yeah. Oh, fuck. So now I've got no product. I owe a fortune for product. Yeah. Now, I don't think this was sort of going to go on, so I took the, I actually protected the brand name. I'm thinking now what do I do right now what do I do because nobody else can make a person ship apart from America now right now yeah so that hunting around what how to how to survive right so there's three distributors um I reached out to them that's a great idea and we'll support you so I connected with one um which is my current business partner um I don't remember he flew over to meet the incumbent supplier who didn't turn up for the meeting, just didn't turn up.

26:36So I thought, right, we'll find people who are suppliers. And we found suppliers in Ireland, we found suppliers in the UK that could supply us. And then about nine months went on, 10 months, picking up some traction. We got an email from the, because that company technically had to fold. I had a choice, save the company or bust myself. Okay. The company won. Got contacted by one of his lawyers. He thinks you should own the name. Nova. No, we own the name Nova. No, he's got a challenging car. So, okay, this is like two weeks before Christmas.

27:23James Burtt: And you up and trading. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right. And in retail by this point? In the Middle East. Right. He'd of course seen that. He was waiting, right? Yeah.

27:35So we sort of knew what he was going to bid for, which was about£70 ,000 just for perpetual rights. Right. So I bid like£80 ,000 at the time. I buy my own name back, right? Yeah. But it had to be completed in 24 hours. I thought, could it count out? Could it count out? and it got paid for but that two weeks prior to christmas i think i slept about 10 hours

28:02James Burtt: so how did it get to a situation because there's a as well as the sort of the mentality being super early there's also now uh a bit of a pattern of deals going sideways for you are you too trusting of people yeah i'm and shit type of guy is that still to this day

28:28yeah so have you not learned a lesson yeah things are different now yeah but i'm just saying i think that that was bad timing because he wanted to um and probably looking back the company was being run not in the way that it should have been run um but he could have had like way better right like you know just not just i mean i was in south I forgot a phone call saying it's all turned off.

28:56James Burtt: But why would he want to? So was it almost a force? Was it a case that he actually, you think he wanted to focus on the cereal brand? Or could he see that actually you've got some potential here with this thing? But you, offensively, you own half of this piece of the pie and you think, well, actually. No, I owned it all. He owned it all? I owned it all. Oh, you owned it all? Yeah. Ah. He wanted to challenge the name of the band. Right, okay. So did he own different areas? So did you own it globally? He was just a supplier. He was just a supplier? So how could he just... Well, when it went a bit south in the early days, we split.

29:35So I set up Nuka.

29:37James Burtt: Right, okay. So he had nothing to do with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then he came at me for the name, saying you should have paid a lot of money for that name that we built. but we're proving we're proving car that we didn't right yeah so with the um so he so he goes his his own separate way you get the ownership back or prove the ownership of the name what's the because starting a business is hard enough even if everyone's rowing in the same direction let alone if one's rowing in one direction one's rowing the other direction you end up going in a fucking gigantic circle. Plus you're in a retail game, which is tough anyway.

30:16James Burtt: Plus you're in a product game. So we're not talking about, you know, about with the body coaches, you've got, okay, you've got some tech and some systems. I mean, just digressing. So on the body coaches, I used to work until one o 'clock in the morning on body coaches in my room, right? And that time my brother lived next to me. And he used to wash his dishes. or wash his dishes on a night time and wave and call him and say get a life good good get a life Andy

30:50get a life but then when that went south and I said to him I've got an idea for a protein chip this is your lucky bag now I don't understand how luck comes into that right but and that's when the shit show started right so 40 years ago is when that first product got thought of but really the fight has been pneumonic monumental since then but my brother normal person said to me oh that's this is your lucky break it's a lucky break that i've gone almost bust doing body coaches and i drove to york to get some design work and on his desk was some serial and I've converted that to chip that's luck and he doesn't speak to me now oh really

31:43James Burtt: if you're loving this conversation please do us a favour by clicking the subscribe button if you haven't yet done so click the follow button if you're listening on apple or spotify at the top right hand corner of your podcast plus if you're loving the learnings and lessons from this episode every single week as well as doing the video and the audio sort of things we also do a handwritten blog and we do a breakdown of the key learnings and lessons as a blueprint that you can implement into your business as well. If you'd like to get all of that, click the link that's in the show notes or the description, and you can join our Building the Brand exclusive newsletter.

32:14James Burtt: So off the back of you, you get the IP, you prove the IP is... This is the other thing that keeps coming up in your story. So you've gone to York to get the design work. The guy's got the cereal on the desk. What made you go, oh, you need to reshape it, put protein with it? And he turns around to you and goes, why would anyone put protein in their cereal and you say, I can see the future and the future is consumable. Well, it's from the gym industry and judging, right? So I knew the velocity of protein, but they're all on tubs. But what made you so convinced that protein would become mainstream?

32:53James Burtt: Because like I say, again, It's just obvious, right? But yeah, it's obvious in retrospect, but at the time when no one's doing it, Apart from, like I say, either the big dudes in the gyms with the massive tubs of stuff. They're all tubs. Or, you know, this is pre-Grenade, this is pre-retail buying into what sort of protein is going to become. Why were you so convinced that, to your own point, it's obvious, isn't it? But obvious to you, well, why was no one else seeing it? That's a really good question, that. I wish I could give you a good offence of saying I haven't got a clue. I just knew that protein was going to trend into mass in more familiar formats.

33:37And the crisp was the first one. I mean, we did wafers after that. We've done other stuff, but protein into mass in a familiar format. That was the concept of Novo.

33:49James Burtt: And in that instance, with taking it into mass, why why what qualified you to be the guy to go and do it you're you're a guy from a design background who's had a reuters fucking satellite dish up picking up data if it's going to go mainstream consumer why is andy with not much prior experience in food manufacturer why why you or what oh why not though why not is that the mentality towards it i think so yeah i think so because people in that game are so busy in that game they can't actually they can't actually see the gaps they're so busy you know um what on the particular topic they're working they don't they don't sometimes see see around that gap and they certainly not want to see protein because that that you know to most people protein is um it's a gym thing it's actually essential to live right you need protein to live it's a fundamental nutrient of the human body you stop eating protein you're going to fade away unfortunately back away right you need protein to live but the perception is it's just to build muscle tissue it's actually to repair muscle tissue so you run up and down that street you're going to burn you're going to burn muscle tissue you need to repair the muscle tissue so yeah in those days it was all gym but now it's mass and functional and from the original design company who you're going to sell and at one point we were 15 million quid then all of a sudden you're worth nothing nothing you leave that day in a portion go fuck you guys see you later yeah fuck you yeah then into the sort of the the body coaches stuff is there never been a point where again I'm just trying to get into the mindset the mentality of someone who sees a pack of cereal on a on a desk goes why is that not reshaping and put protein and everyone goes just go back my son wasn't even but my son was just born and I said to his mom we're getting takeaways this is nonsense shouldn't watch me it's nonsense we're having a phone takeaway and go pick it up they should come to us you're not even going to do that so I drove around the takeaways on my son's life listen I've got an idea if I can get some collected deliveries so that when I order I might Melissa might want Chinese I'll get a pizza and Dave might get whatever some phone ordering system so you can deliver the food to us.

36:31There was no internet, mate.

36:33James Burtt: You created Deliveroo over the phone. That was Deliveroo, yeah. That was Deliveroo. Where did these ideas come from? You're solving a problem, right? You're solving a problem. Yeah. You've got to solve that problem. So the problem I was solving was, I can't be arsed, got to pick these takeaways up, right? So in mind I'm thinking, right, I'm sure other people are my situation. but there wasn't the infrastructure there wasn't the technology there there wasn't the internet again too early you've got deliveroo before deliveroo can be deliveroo yeah wow super interesting so with the um again just with the mentality side of things what was through the sort of the successes that you've had but almost like near misses because you nearly sold the agency you nearly made the thing with reuters you've nearly gone bust you've end up back on your mum's no i did go bust you end up on your mum's floor because there's a pile of knickers at your brother's flogging so you can't sleep on the bed is there not a little voice inside you that you go those those cereals should be a different shape and i'll add protein to it and then someone else goes you're fucking mad is there not a part of you goes oh maybe this is not the right thing or is it just an internal north star that goes no no back yourself this is right Yeah, you've got to back yourself.

37:52You've got to back yourself, unfortunately, looking back, above anything and anybody else, including your family. Yeah. And the sad truth is that, I'm sure a lot of your other guests are the same, right? Their family is just completely peppered with their brand or their business. So whenever the conversation opens, it's no of all this, it's no of all that. So now I'm not allowed to talk. to my son about the company yeah because she consumes that yeah of course yeah become obsessed obsessed and probably not a very nice person right you're super tall you become selfish about your business and become selfish about your band

38:41James Burtt: can you grow something successful without having that mentality though

38:51polar not mediocre okay let's take a little bit of a pause because and this is not an insight or

38:59James Burtt: a share that's just popped up like i usually would i want to double down on to make sure that we've all collectively understood the learning or lesson i guess what i want to share in this little segment here is almost uh it's not a warning but we're about to get very very emotional this conversation is about to get very very deep and very very emotional now i just wanted to give some context as to why I've kept this in the edit, basically, because I'm not someone who wants to get clickbait from somebody's misery or their upset. I'm not somebody who wants to just use tears in a trailer just for the sake of it, quite frankly.

39:31James Burtt: It's not aligned with my moral compass. But I think that this is a very fair reflection on how hard entrepreneurship can be. If you sit during this section of the content, scratch your head going, why does he think it's worth it? then me and you are both aligned because I sat there many times during this conversation. You can see it written all over my face during some of the conversation. I'm just really confused. I cannot understand how someone who has been through so much emotional turmoil through the brands and businesses that they are running still thinks it's worth it. So as you watch this, please understand that I'm keeping this within the edit because I think that sometimes we need to really understand what the true cost of entrepreneurship is.

40:14James Burtt: What is the true cost of chasing our dreams? And again, I think another very valuable thing here is a lot of the times, as a dad myself, I can justify the late nights, the long days, the being away from home. I can justify it in my own mind and outwardly sometimes that I'm doing it for my kids. I'm doing it for my family. And of course, psychologically, in my rational brain, I think that I am doing those things. But actually, if you went back a step, but are you? Or are you doing it for yourself and justifying it as it being for other people? So hope you enjoy this next segment. This is probably, not even probably, it's definitely the most emotional part of a Boo and the Brand episode that I've ever been involved in, frankly.

40:56James Burtt: And I've been making podcasts for nine years. So buckle up people it's about to get real if you know that there's almost collateral damage which is the relationships which is the people that you know you can't be around which is the anxiety which is the lack of sleep if you look back retrospectively is the juice worth the squeeze is it worth the pain that it's caused for the outcome it's created um probably probably yeah because what else would have happened i mean my nephew used to work for me right just an example we had six containers go to turkey right they came gmo positive okay which we supplied the stock certificate says gmo free got to turkey they test them gmo positive like another 354 000 pounder which in at that time of course that small company's a lot of money it came around to me i mean i can't cope with this i literally can't cope with the pressure crying in front of me it was my nephew crying in front of me and i've got to go I've got to go go on then and that time you know going back those years we had a big cash crunch we weren't paying wages right like squeezed all the wages down and he said are you going to pay obviously I'll pay you but he had some equity in the company 10 % give me equity back go on then just and since that day we've not spoken really no and I brought Tom up like my son

42:51James Burtt: why again you say that it's worth the cost but it sounds like there's a wake of damaged relationships yeah So if I asked you again, now your brother and Tom, your son doesn't want to talk about the business, is it worth it?

43:19Yeah. Wow. Because you're also someone who,

43:29James Burtt: I'm not trying to twist a knife for the sake of twisting the knife, but you're also someone that I see at the weekends and Jules said this to me from Grenade I said oh Andy's going to come on the podcast and she went you've never met anyone who's as fucking obsessed as that guy she went I guarantee if you look at his Instagram if you phone him right now I guarantee it was a Saturday she went I guarantee he's walking around Asda checking that the packets were in the right row yeah I looked online and you were checking the fucking packets

44:00is there a potential is it an obsession that's too damaging if it takes over your whole life?

44:15Too late now.

44:19James Burtt: On the flip side of it is the what's the obsession trying to cover or what's the void that it's trying to fill? a child of trauma maybe

44:37James Burtt: which one is it the bullying um as a kid are you still trying to prove yourself as the six-year-old kid that was I think um one particular point remembered my dad my dad didn't speak to us for like two years, right? He's just during his mental breakdown. Yeah. And didn't speak in the house. Imagine that. And if we ate on a paper plate, on a plate and tap the fork, he used to smash the plate. So we're eating out of paper plates, drinking out of paper cups, to not make a noise. And you were how old at this point? Six.

45:22I remember one day I came home I went to the toilet I peed on the seat right I walked in walked upstairs I thought shit I know I pissed on that seat you're 6 right walked out didn't say a single word walked back in with a pickaxe smashed the toilet seat came down and said, you won't piss on that again. I was six. Jesus Christ.

45:59James Burtt: What was your relationship like with your dad before he had the breakdown? I was just a dad, right? Four or five years old. And what about after? After he recovered? Because obviously we're, you know, we're in 2036, a mental breakdown, burnout etc is much more widely understood it's much more he had a mental breakdown because he didn't want to be he couldn't stand the police and he was a copper the irony of that wow so it was work stress that sends him into a breakdown and then because he didn't have the money because my mother up the sandwich shop any expenditure made him feel inferior so because she's putting all the bills if we left the lights on that got smashed because it made him feel less of a man and this was two years that was two years yeah and what about after did he he got better he got better four or five years and yeah I mean I see him as much as I can now he's 86 87 he's still around yeah wow and did he ever reference that period of time with you we don't talk about it what about you and your mum was there ever a time when that was sort of explained no her understanding how does she explain it to you as kids she's greek sippier right so they're a bit submissive uh in the relationship it just it is what it is it's not like now we're not yeah yeah it is what it is so that's why the paper plates and the paper cups come in because it's like don't upset your dad because your dad's the the man of the house.

47:41James Burtt: If you got a fork, if we had a packet of crisps, we had to suck them out of the bag. We couldn't crunch a packet of crisps. Jesus, you must have lived in extreme fear. It was hell. It was fear.

47:58Looking back, it was fear. At the time. Only until a few years ago, I thought it was normal.

48:06James Burtt: You thought that was normal? Well, I don't know nothing else. Got to know how to have a reference point, no. So how do you, you know, if you've had that upbringing as a, as a kid, how do you then parent your own children if you haven't had a good reference point with it? That's a very good question. You don't know how to. No. When Andrea was born, I was 25, right? Yeah. Um, too young, too young. And I'm working some penny shares and fucking come in. I think the world is against it because I've lost my advertising. right um so even at that age looking back i could see that the people were secondary to the career whatever that career was going to be it's a bit sad really do you think the people were coming becoming secondary to the career is because of the the impact that you could see that money had in your own house so maybe you think that to resolve the trauma of that inner child, you need to always be able to pay the bills so it doesn't make you feel inferior to a man.

49:17That's an intricate... I think it's just more to prove that I was right, if truth be told. Right about what? About all of it?

49:31I mean, the whole objective was to set up this ad agency at 1920, retire at 2530, right? and let my mum go live somewhere and live in Cyprus. And it all went shit. So it was logical until then. And after that, it's just a fog, man. It's just a fucking fog. And that was 38 years ago. 30, 33 years ago.

49:58James Burtt: Do you still think that you are trying to prove yourself right now?

50:06on that particular project yeah yes

50:10James Burtt: and is there an element of fuck you to the old business partner who tried to screw you over who didn't see it and then wanted to go after 10 years ago Cyril instead yeah I don't think about him so with with regards to Novo which by the way if people are not if they're already listening to this podcast check out the video so you can see how good this there's blood sweat and tears that have got into these as we've now found out but my god i mean i can't say it's worth it from your the price that you've paid but i could tell you what it's the best tasting crisps either the the not the kicking the mexican chili and lime yeah that might be the best more positive so so that the yeah the concept of the protein chip um was going back to what we discussed the opportunity is very really simple okay and we've done it through trials um six billion packets of crystal consumed per atom in the uk six billion yes six billion wow way and we've proven with data and trials that we outsell all apart from the top two walker scoops okay in fact when it's visible it outsells we've got the data to show from trials and in-store practices that if nova was placed where it should be placed on the trials it would be the fourth biggest crisp company in the uk so why is it not in more places and spaces now we've just got to convince believe it or not you've got to convince the crisp buyers yeah that their consumer wants protein yeah and also you've got a challenge right because you've got people like walkers chris and pepsico that throw massive money yeah yeah just to keep them shells yeah i mean copious amounts of money yeah this retail world is wild and that's sort of medium and yeah yeah yeah you gotta pay it so that's the other thing we've been sort of like first to market is there and we've talked about a couple of times now how early to market and predicting the trends that you've been is the challenge for a brand like novo then is the challenge potentially that you through blood sweat and tears as we've talked about prove the demand and then someone like walkers goes fuck me these are having a bite of our lunch quite literally we'll outspend it and push them out they won't do that because they're dna's crisps right what'll do is one day come along and say, get off my shelves and here's a big check.

52:46Right. It takes people like walkers, you know, 12 months to sit around and decide. Yeah. A NPD, right?

52:55James Burtt: Yeah. For them to launch something like that. I mean, Doritos have launched in America, but for Chris Company like that to launch, they're not going to do it. They're literally, they're going to buy a mortgage. Yeah. Just like Jules that could head around. Yeah. yeah in mondelez they're not going to make a protein bar mate just buy a protein yeah yeah that makes sense so what's the process of going so you've you've got the um sort of the mvp you've got the the drama with the the naming rights all that stuff sorted you've got a new manufacturer a new supplier that can come in and do it what's the because to get something you've done something that many people will never do in their lifetime you've taken a concept and an idea and turned it into a physical thing.

53:43James Burtt: So. And then you've gone and got it into retail. The big break was only 18 months ago. Really? Yeah. Because maybe two years ago, in lockdown, I'm thinking, I'm sure we can make this product better. So in my head, I'm thinking, take the VAT out and make it what they call HFSS compliant. so we reformulated the product totally right and took the potato out which made it vat free why's that potatoes vatable in a chip is it really yeah wow yeah they're vat free so you can sell it effectively 20 % cheaper than a crisp so you take it out a potato that was like the brainstorming lockdown right right so I was one one major retailer and I took these new ones to her I thought this is the future whatever you do I'm not going to mention the retail but the big one don't change it I'm going to change it don't, I'm fucking going to change it it's 20 % cheaper it tastes better and that was the first change into UK retail then I took it to Asda it's a funny story I'd buy her and I walked into reception and the head honcho comes down just to let you know they wheel me in because I'm the fiery one I'm like okay what's your name my name's called Jax right and the words were I had a big box like that she went I don't know what my buying team have told you but that's not of going on my fucking shelf she was farrier proper farrier she's now a good friend right I've got the old ones we can put in nah nah I don't have the old ones you can't have the old ones yeah put the old ones in you've got 24 hours do you well solve your fucking box I'm not mad I'm not Jesus but give me 72 hours yeah I've got a biker to drive up to Scotland to a mock-up house mock-up some new boxes right drove back I walked into Asda House on the Thursday just go on Jax hi Jax yeah here's your box small box okay and she said to his team told you we'd do it yeah it's a little bit of a test so otherwise that parts nasda would have been the old one somewhere expensive right and not hfss which means you can promote in store oh is this the rule about you're allowed to promote it to kids and stuff because it's got okay right right in simple terms if you can if you can be hfss the retailers can charge you for promoting right right but the meal deal isn't hfss main fixture is don't have to be checkouts is hfss so with regards to because you mentioned earlier if it's in the right place it will outsell so where is it currently sitting at the moment in some of those places right we just need more distribution i mean because i mean when i went to asda because i was going on a fishing trip with my father-in-law, me and you had had a conversation on the phone.

57:28James Burtt: You said they're in Asda and I've got two Sainsbury's, two Tesco's and Morrison's all between my house and an Asda. But I was like, I'm going to the Asda. I'm going to do it. And my wife's like, why are you going to Swanley? Like Swanley's a bit of a place anyway. Why are you going to Asda in Swanley on a Friday night? I was like, I've got to get these protein chips. I've got to go and get them. And she was like, oh, you're mad. All right. But then when I went there, I had to do a bit of a hunting around for them. I don't think they were in the crisp aisle. So they're in the health fixture. That's right.

58:00We're in health check-out. Now we're in health fixture and check-outs. That's where we're in Asda.

58:06James Burtt: So it's part of your challenge getting out of the health aisle and into the crisp aisle. Yes, here's the ironic thing. Here's the ironic thing, right? Most people would have been, I don't know anybody. I'm not just saying this. I don't know anybody that's landed two or three major retailers in the UK. Nice. Right. On their own. Yeah, yeah. I don't. But now we're not happy with that, right? Now I want to go, we don't want to compete just with protein. We want to compete against walkers. Yeah.

58:30See, there's a pattern, right? Yeah. Oh, I'm not just happy with protein now. Now I want to go to take the challenge to the beast. So we want to move away from sports nutrition into complete mass market, which by the way, is the most challenging market in the whole of the UK. Crisps. with no margin.

58:57James Burtt: Is there, from all the previous stuff that you've done then, is there not an element of residual post-traumatic stress syndrome that sits there and goes, you've done this before, you grew a great advertising business, then you wanted to go bigger and get bought out, and they fucked you. And you found the Reuters satellite dish, and I keep coming back to it, but you worked out where the money was, but then someone said, oh, do it at a bigger scale, it helps some other people. And then that guy was going to take you to the FCA and that fucked you. Is it not, you know, you were early on, the body coaches was too early because the tech wasn't there and that kind of swelled up two years.

59:36James Burtt: I was able to peptide too. I launched a peptide 14 years ago. Fucking years early again. Is there not a part of you that goes, just call your jets, don't go after walkers, don't make a big enemy, stick in the health food aisle and be grateful for where you're at where's the fun in that i suspect that might be the answer but there's there might be fun in it but there's stability and is the stability not a worthy attribute to chase as well or is that just not how you're wired up what about work-life balance stuff work-life blend i suspect balance is never a thing that you're going to get not interested I don't know it I mean I'd love to know I'd love to be able to relax I genuinely don't know I genuinely don't understand when people say work life balance I don't know what they mean

1:00:33James Burtt: what do you do on an average Saturday because I know because I followed you on Instagram and Jules told me what you'd be doing I go to the gym and I drive around stores and talk to consumers how like but just so that people who are listening understand that's what you spend your entire weekend doing, isn't it? You go from store to store to store to store. And what do you do? Do you stand by the aisle and wait for them to pick it up? Or sometimes like just, you know. Tide it all up? Tide it up and just have a chat with them. Because you showed me a brilliant video earlier. So there's a guy who's just working in the store and you're making him scan.

1:01:09James Burtt: Well, he's scanning. He's an as-employed, but he's scanning. so that particular store I spent four or five weeks filling that up right ah okay alright but there's no greater feeling than walking to a store and seeing your stuff yeah and then sometimes I was stood there my gym closed yeah and some guy said to me once um he was just doing one retail and his wife was like talking about some way of protein I went well that's the best way to buy actually and it's like so do you want honestly that's the best way to buy I'm like proper scruffy gym yeah but you look the part again for those who are not watching the video you would take yeah proper you would take bodybuilding or fitness advice from you to be fair yeah I said to her that's definitely the one to take and they were looking at the snacking fixture and she said to him have you seen those protein crisps and he went I tasted shit years ago

1:02:07I'm listening I went do you want to try some yeah I'll buy some

1:02:17to check out and bought some sure fuck those those are really good then and he said to me don't I know you I'm not sure he said we used to be a distributor oh yeah yeah yeah it's Andrew Coulson there yeah yeah yeah fuck me you can get people the wrong can't you you look like scruffy you're twat you're like you're some kiss but that feedback from a consumer and talking to people who walk in the store and looking at the person that buys the product you know they're not what you think it's the average Joe health aspirational and watching the shopping habits you can't get that off any spreadsheet you can't get it off any data and it's rewarding right when it gets to four o 'clock on a Sunday when the show is shut I'm lost wow what does it do

1:03:21James Burtt: from four till opening hours on a Monday good question pull the other think I look forward to Mondays

1:03:34James Burtt: you're now you've got a team obviously you've got Not a massive team for the distribution and the spread that you've got, which is impressive, and what you've created, which is impressive. You haven't got a massive team that's pulling this off. There's a lot of, to be fair, you're probably doing the work of 17 people, it turns out. But how do you manage people who do need that work-life balance? Maybe they've got young kids at home or they've got young families at home. How do you deal with someone who's like, sorry, Andy, I'm not around. It's Saturday and I'm watching football with the kids. I don't post them at weekends.

1:04:06James Burtt: Do you not? No. But you're so driven and so hungry and you don't understand work-life balance or blend. How do you... I don't think it's fair to pest them. And we have WhatsApp groups and stuff, but I try not to post them in there the weekend. Do you? I've got another WhatsApp group with a few other people I'm posting every day. Like, it's going around stores, posting, looking at different crisps, looking at different MPD, posting, posting. Like, what about this? What about that? What about that? What happens if you sit still and sit quiet? what's the knee goes and stuff what's the in the car saw that at the beginning of the conversation you your knee was going like mad is it are you are you uncomfortable not moving like stillness is it uncomfortable and if so why i think having conversation like this and having conversation with people that you know get stimuli from is great right but if um i cannot have a conversation with some that don't get some, I don't get some stimuli from, I just walk away.

1:05:12It's wrong in there.

1:05:14James Burtt: It's what it is. Depends, there's... But I like to help people. I do like to help people. Literally, you walk into stores, onto a store the other week, some Orisons, I was in my gym clothes, yeah. And some bloke walks up and on his trolley with some Chris. Some of yours? Yeah. But it's paying for, it's paying for it, right? And it failed. And it failed. So I didn't say I've got my car. Who'd asked me that, mate? I didn't want to embarrass the dough with butter. So what do you do? I'm a proper gym coach. What funny if I met protein? That one. Yeah, fucking hell, I'd get you wrong, wouldn't you?

1:06:01You've made my day. And I actually get a lot of pleasure from, believe it or not, going around. If I see some people struggling paying, I'll...

1:06:11James Burtt: Because you've been there. You know what that feels like. I pay the shop in, yeah. What's next then for this company? You've become the first to market. You're now going after those bigger brands that have got the global distribution, that have got the big marketing budgets. And it's you and a squad of a dozen people who are making this all happen. what happens what's on the road map what's happening at the moment what are you excited about where does this go in the next 12 months I would feel my job is done when we've landed Tesco then I could say to my son yeah

1:06:56you say what

1:07:02Does he need you to do it though?

1:07:09No So why do you feel you have to do it?

1:07:20Can't fail

1:07:24Why not?

1:07:27James Burtt: I'm not being facetious, I'm just trying to understand the mentality of what is... Why can't you fail? And who can't you fail? Is it you or him? Him.

1:07:47Hmm. That's household, right? I've truly built a household, Pryland. Hmm. And is it almost if you land those big accounts and you see it in national distribution, does it almost make the price that you've paid and that he's had to pay as a consequence, it almost makes it worth it?

1:08:17What happens after you land these accounts for you?

1:08:21James Burtt: You're a man who gets anxious on four o 'clock on a Sunday because you can't go into a shop. They're probably looking for 24-hour garages to go and check out. What happens then? Or if this gets bigger and they bring in, you know, there's proper sales directors and account managers and someone's dealing with forecourts or someone's dealing with big retailers, someone's dealing with D2C, and they go, Andrew, you need to be a chairman role. Yeah. Take a step back. What do you do then? Do some new MPD grad. from my body. Go again.

1:09:03James Burtt: Jules was right about you. Jules from Grenada, she said you've never fucking met anyone as obsessed with their products as this guy. I think she was right. And talking to your business partner now, when you've had... They become your friends, right? The business partners. I think when you... Good ones do. Yeah. The bad ones become your fucking enemy. And you've had a few of both by the sounds of it. So how do you allow yourself to trust when you've been... Listen to your gut. You listened to your gut the first times, didn't you? No, it's naive. Okay. So how do you tell yourself the difference between gut intuition and naivety?

1:09:43How do you know, like with Faraz, is his name?

1:09:45James Burtt: Yeah. How did you know when you met him, you're like... He's a Leo, right? I can do this on a handshake. He's a Leo. You're not into all the Astro stuff, are you? No, but he's, um, he's just all the back end. I'm not a detailed person. I'm not freaking. Go, go, go. Yeah. So you are. But maybe, maybe the, the part, I mean, my next 59, two weeks, maybe. I'm launching different products into different retails now. Um, I'm already on with a few of other things. and for us does he offer you the stability of almost you go and open the accounts you go do the stuff you do the product development you do the wafers chips chocolates whatever you're going to do and i'll the wafers they're burnt down the sale company that burned down literally burned down as well didn't it what happened unless you were up and running we've convinced that on the go protein in familiar formats not taste like protein was the future and just watch wafers right um and that was the first bar into the Middle East and that factory set in order for like three or four containers and literally it burnt down so when people say it went up in flames in a lot of cases it's a metaphor but in this case it actually went up in flames it had a fire which means it couldn't produce for six months wow which you'd lose all your business fuck So did that sort of vertical just have to stop because that was...

1:11:21Yeah.

1:11:22James Burtt: They couldn't produce. Only 18 months ago, the chip site, one of the chip sites, they went bust. So I remember waking up in the morning thinking, how did a girl overcome that right? Because they're about to go to shit. I don't want to mention the amount of money, but I just woke up and wired the money. So they couldn't make my stop and shut my eyes.

1:11:51and hoping for the best hoping they were going to make our stock which they did and then we moved to supply so only 18 months ago 16 months ago that would have been the end of us right

1:12:06James Burtt: yeah because they went bust so is the next step for you guys to bring production in house potentially if you're I think the focus of a brand is to be a brand not a manufacturer. But we could explore that. It's not my skill set. It's a bit too slow and boring for you, isn't it? Manufacturing? Yeah, feels like it. Going to the same place every day, same site every day. 16 months ago, that's what happened, right? Not 14 years ago, 16 months ago. Shut your eyes. Why the money in pre? and you've by this point you've got big orders that are that need to be fulfilled you've got major retailers like little right he's just been on now what a journey what do you do when you're not working uh well you've never got a nice cutter oh you're never not working i've got a nice cat nice cat yeah Maine Coon of course it's a huge cat so you're either working in the gym or stroking your cat yeah or in a store what do you do for

1:13:24James Burtt: do you do anything for fun I know you you probably find this all fun but is there anything you know I was thinking the other day I was serious question when's the last time I laughed hmm I'm sure a lot of your guests, when's the last time they just laughed? Hmm. I can't, I do remember when I laughed, which is about three months ago.

1:13:50There was a pile of some girlfriend issues. I started laughing. I went, I've not laughed that often. When's the last time you laughed?

1:13:59James Burtt: Me? I laugh all the time. Do you? Yeah. But then I get to, I don't have a, a hard business if that makes sense like all businesses are hard to an extent but I've got easy hard you've got hard hard I think you have to choose your hard I've chosen diet hard hard light laughing's important laughing's what breaks down humans right what do you do I'm genuinely interested four o 'clock on a Sunday everything shuts you can't go to the shops you can't stand in the aisles you can't watch customers and clients what do you do? I'll go do some cardio and then prep my food for the week. Always moving forwards, always moving forwards.

1:14:44James Burtt: Do you have any daily practices, like meditation or... No, but I should. I once went to, I was asked to go to a shrink years ago, right? And he said to me, do me a favour, come back in a week and write a few bits of paper from what you can remember as a child. to the rail, shall you? The following week, I went back to the fucking pile. In the book. Oh, that's from when I was six.

1:15:15You don't need me. Off. Don't need you, based on what? What did he think you needed? You just done that to prove yourself right. You don't need cheap therapy. Okay, cheers.

1:15:32James Burtt: do you think some form of therapy would have been good for you though yes or would still be good for you because it seems like it's very much on the surface still i think i know podcasts are a weird environment because there's not many times when a 59 year old and a 43 year old just sit here intently looking into the whites of each other's eyes as as one of them go through childhood trauma I understand it's a very weird scenario we find ourselves in but it didn't take a lot of questioning for that to pop back to the surface probably in my generation didn't have soap right no cracked on there wasn't such a thing as soapy yeah I mean when we when we and the team you know land Tesco Mealville them done right

1:16:31but i don't know what comes after for you

1:16:37James Burtt: let's play this out tesco's mildew comes to you and they say we love it well i spend a lot of time with tesco stores talking about consumers of course yeah it doesn't surprise me as lightest i could you could that's what you'd do so you'd switch out but that whole thing could it ever be done for you for someone like you who's got the mentality that you've got is it ever done is it ever finished

1:17:09no

1:17:12are you happy unless it's a slight tangent but I don't know what that is

1:17:27How do you know that you don't know what it is? I don't enjoy anything outside of work. Really?

1:17:49How would your... Are you worried that your son hears that clip and what he thinks of that? He knows.

1:18:06James Burtt: So nothing in your life brings you pleasure apart from work? My grandson would. I've seen him once. Seen him once? How old is he? One. Why have you only seen him once? Good question.

1:18:31What's building a relationship about my son?

1:18:40What needs to happen to do that? Tiff.

1:18:46James Burtt: What does he need from you that he hasn't got, do you think, so far?

1:18:52James Burtt: Me not talking about Noah. does he I know we're not putting words into his mouth but does he see the maybe the lack of parenting that he had from your side as a consequence of the business does he resent the businesses because they took his dad

1:19:18ask him when are you next seeing him When he's free. How often do you ask him if he's free? Every week. And what did he say the last time you asked if he was free? He's busy. There's a big cost to this entrepreneurship game, isn't there?

1:19:51James Burtt: it's not where i expected this conversation to go i'm glad we had it i'm glad i'm you know as a empathetic human being i feel awful sitting in the moment seeing you so visibly upset but I also look at it from the flip side of it for people who are watching and listening to this to go this is actually sometimes the cost of what it takes to win so I think it's important for people to see that side of it this is real yeah

1:20:26it's all good though

1:20:30and yet still you think it was worth the price

1:20:35yeah

1:20:38I think maybe a good thing we could do is go on holidays.

1:20:45James Burtt: What time are you doing on holiday? Fucking hell. You'd be walking down the strip of Magaluf looking at retail locations to get your fucking crisps in there. I went to, where was it? Seychelles. for two days. The first thing we did was get a laptop. Do some POs.

1:21:15Yeah. Is it a good thing?

1:21:24James Burtt: Who goes to the station for two days? Were you supposed to go for longer? No. You just went for two days? Right. zip to Seychelles and the first thing we did was get lapped up out that's my business part swimming in the dolphins was good I saw dolphins that was therapeutic I used to go fishing a lot why don't you fish anymore truthfully yeah I can't stand wearing glasses yeah I think this is where I discovered my love of Novo, by the way, fishing, because I went with my father-in-law. Did you? I don't like, I don't know much about fishing. I'm a 43-year-old man, but he likes fishing. I like my father-in-law, so he's like, do you want to go fishing?

1:22:14James Burtt: I'm like, yes, Barry, let's go fishing. It's like bonding time. Yeah. And I feared it a bit, because I was there with my father-in-law and my uncle-in-law, both lovely people who I've got a lot of time for, a lot of love for. but I was like fuck I'm gonna be out there I went on a Sunday so it's gonna be there two days Sunday and Monday's like fuck Monday so much I'm gonna miss out on and work and blah blah blah but you know what taking enforcing that break for just two days I had so much clarity yeah I slept amazing it just lifted the fog do you sleep do I sleep yeah I sleep yeah I sleep really well I won't ask you the same question I think as you get a bit older too you need to supplement your diet with certain stuff creatine I'm 59 next time so you've got to be energised do you know what I'd love to see on your Instagram in the next two months I'd love to see a meal deal come off in testicles.

1:23:25James Burtt: Do you know what else I'd like to see more? I'd like to see a picture of you and your son and your grandson at a fishing lake. From the outside looking I presume you realise I'm completely opposite as I look now. Yeah. I wonder if the frame and the muscles and the volume is all underneath all there's still that kid who had darker skin who got beat up in the playground and would go home and had to eat off a plastic plate so his dad didn't smash the gaffer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's not about the money, right? No, I get that with you. It's about the legacy.

1:24:11I mean, when you've got competitors launched after you that are doing just short of a billion in protein kiss America, you know,

1:24:24would you sleep? I don't think it's about what they've done.

1:24:28James Burtt: I think it's the chase for you though, isn't it? I think you'll chase it every day of your life. Whatever it is, you'll chase it. There's some people who just come into contact with you and be like, fuck me, they're going to go. Yeah. So the company's 14 years old, but truthfully it's 18 months old in the UK. Yeah. So it's only young. I think in two years we'll land we'll land the big ones but some people say you've landed big ones now 100 % I mean Asda and Morrisons and Lidl Lidl other retails too well I'm super grateful for your willingness to have this conversation no thanks no we've known each other for a grand tale of about three hours now and we've peeled back some layers of the onion for sure in a deep way that's that i expected i've loved the conversation if anyone's listening or watching this go and for god's sake especially if you live up north there's a real risk if you go to an asda and you put you go past the aisle there might be a scary intimidating guy who's actually not scary and intimidating at all but he might be stood there making sure that you buy the product guys go and check it out Protein Pops, Novo Nutrition in stores all around the UK.

1:25:50James Burtt: And if you happen to work at Tesco's, you can make a small boy's dream come true by stocking it as a meal deal. Andrew, thanks for your time out. I appreciate it. Cheers, pal. Thank you so much for watching this episode of Bill and the Brand. I genuinely hope that you absolutely love this episode. If you want to click here, there's another great video that you can watch. Or this one here. Oh, I've picked it just for you. It's an absolute banger. Click that one right now. Go on. I'll see you on the next one. you