Yann Robard - Liquidity Solutions for Private Capital at Dawson (EP.392)

25:57Otherwise, LPs and maybe the market would be skeptical. But even the laggards, the one that's been held for eight years or more, are popping at anywhere between high single digits to double digits. So the winners and the laggards actually exit at pops to their valuation. So when we look at that, private equity is actually undervalued, not overvalued based off that information. And you can find examples for sure where there's a company that may have been overvalued and will be sold at a discount, but on average, during that period of time, it has. The other thing that we looked at was what are private equity multiples versus public market multiples?

26:37And what you've seen certainly over this crisis or this time period since 2021, public markets have gone from 13 .5 times to 21 .5 times, LTM EBDA. Private equity has stayed consistently between 13 .5 to 14 .5 times. So you ask me which one is rational. Is it the public markets that are moving from 13 .5 to 21 .5 times? Or is it private equity that has stayed at a band of 13 .5 to 14 .5 times? On exit, M &A on average is 25 % and IPOs are 42 % pops, which would suggest that public markets pays more for assets on the exits than M &A does, corporates. So it's another tidbit around whether public markets may be paying up for assets that are exiting from private equity versus a corporate world.

27:29We believe that, we've got a paper out on this, that private equity is a rational one. So what's interesting is if the data is showing that private equity exits to the public markets have a pop, we also know that on the entry, there's a pop from the public markets and the take private. What happens in the middle? It depends on what time period that you're talking about. I would say from a good part of the time and from the last 20 years, what has happened is that private equity has bought well, has then added value during their hold period, and then essentially been able to sell at a better multiple because the business was in better condition, maybe because the owners of the assets weren't focused on quarterly earnings, but they were focused more on the three to five year and how to make that company better.

28:19So on exit, they got a better relative multiple than they did at entry. All of that is going to be debatable. You're going to find examples where that's not the case. But generally speaking, on average, if you've got a better governance model where private equity can add operational value to these underlying companies, where there's more alignment between the management team, the shareholders, and the underlying beneficiaries, then what you have is you have a situation where businesses can get better on exit. And if they're better on exit, they might get a better multiple. So if we tie this back into your founding of Dawson.

28:53The other piece that comes up in private equity is just illiquidity and whether the reason you're getting higher returns is you're getting paid an illiquidity premium. How did you think about that dynamic in the context of what you wanted to do at Dawson? Look, I mean, I think from my perspective, so basically, if you ask me, well, what's the problem with private equity? Because I've said, okay, better returns, okay, better governance model. The age -old question in private equity is illiquidity, and that's where the secondary market comes in to help and enable liquidity to an otherwise illiquid asset class.

29:25And what it actually does is that it kind of enables the industry and the GPs and the LPs to have what they need. On the left side, you have GPs that need patient capital. They need three to five years to make sure that the company goes through the evolution it needs to actually add the value that it needs. On the right side, you've got LPs that have built their private equity portfolios in different times, in different markets, and has reacted to the markets in different ways. The secondary market sits between the two and essentially provides both and doesn't disrupt the ecosystem. The GPs get that patient capital.

30:07The LPs get to tactically reallocate their portfolios when they need. And when you really think about it, what's the secondary role? So it's starting to sound like a public market. When you start selling a share of Google or Walmart at the end of the day, that's a secondary. And so this is what the secondary market has been doing slowly. It seems like exponential growth. But the secondary market has gone to $135 billion at its biggest year in 2021. And that represents 1 % of private capital. So if you think about it, imagine a world where a public market investor would buy into the public markets and do nothing with it for 10 years.

30:47You would say that that's probably fiduciarily irresponsible. Well, that's what's happening in private equity. People commit to funds and they hold and they don't tactically reallocate in good times and bad. The secondary market isn't there just in bad times. In 21, it was private equity done too well. They were over allocated for the right reasons. Should you tactically reallocate at that point in time? So that's what's happening. There's a shift in the sophistication that's happening in private equity, which keeps the model intact, which is what has made private equity, in my mind, special, given that patient capital so people can do the right things to the businesses and give the LPs what they need, which is any way of being able to essentially manage in a more sophisticated way their private equity portfolio.

31:35So when you had that vision of being in between, how did you go about attacking it as a business? On the bike ride, it was if you want to generate liquidity on your private equity portfolio, you really have two options. You can either leverage it up, which in this day and age, you could get 25 % to 35 % LTV. Maybe before all of this, you could get 35 % to 45%. Or you could go and sell. And if you go and sell, you're probably selling it in those days, 90 to par in today's environment, probably more like 85 to 95, give or take. And so the concept was, can we sit in the middle and provide LPs with the opportunity to accelerate liquidity on their private equity portfolios and keep the upside?

32:16What we do is that we give 60 to 70 % of the value of the portfolio. We'll take 100 % of the cash flows from that portfolio until we get to, let's call it a minimum return of a multiple 1 .3, 1 .4, or 8 to 10%. And then we'll split cash flows, 80 % to you and 20 % to us. So we're not here to replace debt. We're not here to replace selling. We're here to give another tool in the tool set. But if you lever, you encumber your assets. If you sell, you crystallize a loss, you forego future proceeds, you time the market. With us, what you can do is you can accelerate liquidity on your private equity portfolio.

32:51You don't have to time the market. You don't have to crystallize a loss. And you have exposure to the future upside. That we see as a win -win because actually when we outperform, that's a good thing for us and our counterpart. If they would have sold, then they would have left that upside to the buyer. With us, we can win together. How did you go about finding the opportunities to provide that capital? We did 2 ,400 meetings in 24 months when we first started. We just pounded the pavement. We just went out there. We talked about it. Going back to passion, patience, and persistence, we had a lot of conviction in what we're doing because we just thought there's a place in the market for this.

33:31We just had a lot of conviction and we started talking to the market. The concept of what we're talking about pivoting and adapting, we had to hear what the market was ready for. And we had to essentially take that, pivot, adapt, and then create structures where the market was ready for it. We probably came out and we were one step ahead too far of the market. And we just kind of slowly but surely took feedback and got to a point where we're 175 people. I mean, I'm pinching myself. This is way beyond my wildest expectations. I'm so grateful of everything that we've been able to achieve. And it's just been an incredible ride.

34:07And we're just beginning. That's the thing is I look at it and I'm like, wow, we've stumbled upon something that is limitless. If you think about a $15 trillion private capital market that's going to grow to $30 trillion by 2030, our opportunity is to inject liquidity into that market. We're going to take a quick break in the action to tell you about SRS Aquium. Want to make sure your M &A processes aren't stuck in the past? partner with a company that's been defining the future of dealmaking for nearly two decades instead. When it comes to M &A innovation, SRS Aquium has reshaped the way that deals get done, streamlining processes for maximum efficiency and minimum headaches.

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35:47We've become more resourced, more informed, more sophisticated. We have been able to invest in our team. We've been able to invest in our technology. In the whole journey of this, what we have been able to do is show up in the market with a product in which we can execute with speed, with scale, and with certainty. All because of scale. It's interesting in the secondary market because as big as it's gotten, there's actually not that many players that can show up with a billion dollar check to provide liquidity to a counterparty, certainly in speed and scale. So we're sitting there saying that's our opportunity.

36:25We say that we are unapologetic about our growth. We think that at the end of the day, growth is an important way that we differentiate ourselves in the market. And as I said, we're just getting started. And growth and scale allows us and positions us to come through for our investors. And that's ultimately what it comes down to, is being able to differentiate yourself in the market and being able to move at that speed and scale. But it's not the only thing. We say scale matters because actually what's really interesting and what I've learned along the way is that a growing firm allows you to attract really interesting talent.

37:03Because the problem is, is that if you're a firm that is stagnant, what happens is that you have glass ceilings. There's not as many opportunities. I grew up at CPP going from 24 to 1200. The world was my oyster. That's the opportunity. We're growing and that enables us to really attract some incredible talent. Entrepreneurial, hungry but humble, in it together, stronger together. That's our mantra. We approach this in a way where we say, when you give, you get. When you do, good things happen. And we're not a rip -your -face -off people. We are, how do we create the win -win -win in everything that we do?

37:44How do we create partnership? Call it the Canadian way of doing business. But at the end of the day, it's not just what we do, it's how we do it that gives us great pride. We understand that without investors, there would be no Dawson. We understand that at the end of the day, we should be so thankful, so grateful for the confidence and conviction that our investors provide us and trust us with our capital. And that's what drives us every day. I always picked intellectual compensation over financial compensation. And that's the mantra that we have at Dawson. We love what we do. We're really passionate about what we do.

38:17And so the types of people we attract just are so intellectually curious and intellectually stimulated. They're young. They're hungry. I am so proud of the team that we've been able to bring. That's what gives me the warm and fuzzies. When I see the team getting empowered, enabled, I could talk about this for hours. I'm not doing this for the money. What am I doing this for? And the word that I always use, which is overused, is impact. But impact can be on the employees. How do you enable and empower them? And if you can give them limitless opportunities within the organization and they say, hey, that's really interesting.

38:53Why don't I go spend some time over there? Go for it. We think about impact on our investors, because if we can actually differentiate ourselves in the market with speed and certainty, then we can come through for them. We think about impact on communities, because 1 % of our revenues goes back to charity. And that's something that's near and dear to my heart. And if you talk to me about like, why am I doing all of this? This is really about scale enables us to give back more. And the other thing that we have talked about is impact on ourselves. I don't know what I'm doing. I've never done this before.

39:24And so I'm learning and I'm growing. And the reality at the end of the day is you need to be so humble in this journey. You need to be so grateful. I pinch myself every day that I'm in the seat that I'm in. And I got to tell you, I'm so lucky. And so you got to recognize that as scale, as success comes, how do you stay grounded? How do you stay grateful? How do you realize and recognize how lucky you are to be in the seats that you're in? And yet we're just getting started. The vision is so clear for me in terms of what we can do with this. And if we approach it with the right mindset, if we approach it with when you give, you get, when you do good, good things happen, if you can come through for your investors and we're not perfect, we're going to make mistakes along the way.

40:07But if you're not making mistakes, you're not learning. If you can't be humble enough to appreciate the mistakes that you've made and be honest with yourself and honest with others as to what did you get right? What did you get wrong? And what can we learn from that? If you get to a point where you really believe that you are flawless, then like, wow, you're heading in the wrong direction. I am a work in progress. And I'm always constantly trying to surround myself with people that are better than me, that have done this before, and just open and curious as to the feedback they give me because I'm growing.

40:42How do you maintain that culture as you grow? That's my passion. How do we make sure that we keep that? A Dawson, our performance reviews are a combination of the what and the how. If you don't have both, you cannot succeed at Dawson. We measure out of five. The what is one, two, three. The how is zero, one, two. So, if you're great at what you do, three, and you're culturally consistent, one, that's a four, you move forward. If you are a culture carrier and you're good at what you do, that's a four, you move forward. But if you're great at what you do, three, but you're culturally inconsistent, that's a three, you're not moving forward.

41:22If you're culturally carrier, but you're not good at what you do, that's a three, you're not moving forward. It's that simple. So, we are always focused as we bring people in and we have so much that we do to really enable and empower employees to just allow them to grow. But it always comes down to the how as much as the what. How have you organized your team to cover what's become an increasingly large industry? We got six pillars at Dawson. Strategic management, capital management, asset management, portfolio management, operations management, firm management. New products and partnership, strategic, capital raising, capital, asset deploy, portfolio manage the portfolio, firm management, service our clients, and then operations.

42:07And then within the asset management, we have folks that are in sub teams, GP coverage, that merely are the financial sponsors, but also focusing on both primary co -investments and then also the deal doing folks on the secondary side. I spent a disproportionate amount of my time thinking about organizational structure and making sure that we align the organization to how we do things and making sure we have two offsites a year, one in January, one in June. We set KPIs in January. We keep ourselves accountable in June. And it's so important to bring the firm together, not just for informal bonds and being able to build relationships so that you essentially allow people to get to know each other and that breaks down silos, but also to just really keep the organization focused in terms of what are the strategic initiatives?

42:56What are we trying to achieve this year? What are our priorities? The trick is to simplify complexity and have a clear vision so that people walk away from these sessions knowing, uh -huh, the top three to five things that we need to do for this half of the year or for the full year is this. So we spend a lot of time on that. How do you go about making your investment decisions? We have two pipeline meetings a week. We have investment committees is available on Monday, Wednesday, Friday. We want to move nimbly. We want to move quickly. But it's actually pretty easy to parcel out our pipeline. Because when you know what you want, the deal comes through the transcript and you're just like, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, go.

43:39From an investment committee perspective, look, I think the reality is that it's an open room. Everybody can talk in the room. Everybody's invited to come in. And so we think that's a way to kind of teach the young folks the nuances of how people cut to the decisions and how to go from an idea concept to a decision and what are the questions and answers in order to get there. And it just feeds, I think, from our perspective, that culture of being better investors. I'd love to hear some of the examples of what these transactions in between debt and equity look like? Everything we do, we focus on the win -win -win.

44:20When we win, our counterparty wins. All whole focus is how do we provide customized bespoke solutions where we sit down and we really listen to what are the counterparty looking to achieve and how can we essentially enable them to achieve that in an innovative way with a customized solution. Drawing on the 25 plus years of experience in private equity and understanding institutional objectives as they try and manage a private equity portfolio to allow yourself to be open -minded enough to be able to really listen. What are they trying to achieve? It's not just a transaction. This is not just buy sell.

44:58We're thinking about new financial technology, new financial products. In that LP financing example that I gave, that we're sitting between the debt and the equity, and we're providing them an opportunity to accelerate liquidity on their private equity portfolio. Many times people have built these private equity portfolios over the last three to four years. They're sitting there saying, I love this portfolio. Don't make me sell now. And so they're sitting there as a team who's built that portfolio saying, I understand we're over allocated. It's a temporary phenomenon. And can we find a way that allows us to tactically reallocate but keep the upside?

45:33And in the process of doing that, it's not just keeping the upside. They keep the relationships. They keep the co -investment flow. They keep their advisory board if they want. So there's a lot of different ways that you can talk to LPs. But the first conversation you have to do is, what are you looking to solve for? It's not us with a cookie cutter. Here's our product. Do you want to do this deal? It's like, let's listen. Oh, okay. Let us come back to you in a couple days. And by the way, nimbleness. We come back so quickly, thoughtfully. That's how we're trying to differentiate ourselves in this market.

46:11How do you think about the portfolio that you put together for your LPs? Diversification, diversification, diversification. So in the objective of generating resilient returns, muted volatility, consistent cash flows, first part of call is diversity. Diversity by asset, by sector, by geography, by vintage, by duration, by GP. Then the second port of call is quality. We're really looking to deal with quality GPs that have had experience through cycles. It generally puts us towards the larger end of the market. We can have a debate as to whether or not they generate the best returns. I would suggest that they have a good opportunity to do that.

46:54Either way, they're very consistent in the way that they generate their returns. And if you think about what we're trying to do around consistent returns, that's our focus. Diversify portfolios so that we can provide that consistency with muted volatility. And then the last part is our structure. So what we do, as you kind of heard, we essentially give 60 % to 70 % of the value of the portfolio, taking 100 % of cash flows. So we're one and a half times asset coverage, J1. From our perspective, we've got the combination of diversity, high quality, structure, and And the combination of those three things provides us what we hope is portfolio construction.

47:29Then we have a whole team called portfolio construction that is looking at our funds as they're getting invested. And they're saying, okay, well, we have a bit too much exposure here or too much of that sector exposure. So it's a real -time discussion between the total portfolio management team and the asset management team that deploys capital. And they're talking to each other saying, hey, the next deal, we would like it to look a little bit more like this. You need to know what you're looking for before it comes to market. We've seen $670 billion go through our shop. We've done 22 billion of that.

48:02So the trick in culling that portfolio is being able to see these portfolios and be like, that's the one we want. And that's how you dedicate resources effectively and efficiently around that, is being able to know what you're looking for when you see it pounce. What are some of the characteristics of what would cause you and your team to want to pounce on a deal? I think we're always looking at multiple occurring value, leverage levels, operating momentum, quality of the GPs. We proactively price 75 funds a quarter. We know what we're looking for. We know the average valuations, leverage levels.

48:37And we have a view as to the direction of these underlying funds and underlying portfolios. that then gets boiled into a quarterly investment theme that's saying, generally speaking, portfolio construction wise, we're looking for a little bit more of this, a little bit more of that. It's an iterative process that really allows us to essentially be very focused. That's the trick here. We had two pipeline discussions a week, one on Monday, one on Friday. We know what we want. Pipeline comes in, it's just like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, that's one. and then you run. So alongside of providing these solutions for LPs seeking liquidity, there's been a big and growing market of GP stakes and financing.

49:22How have you thought about partnering with GPs? It's interesting because in around 2019, we were doing all of these things with LPs and we're like, well, actually we could probably do this with GPs as well. Sit somewhere between the debt and the equity and provide structured equities for GPs, for management companies and essentially sitting between the debt and the equity in GP stakes and allowing GPs to be thoughtful about their management company and how they're managing it. What I found interesting is that for the longest time, GPs were private equity partnerships. And they were spending so much time on their underlying companies and how to add value to the underlying companies.

50:04And then just recently, they woke up and they're like, whoa, wait a second, we're an asset management firm. And we should be thoughtful in terms of how we're managing our management company. So what you're going to see over the next decade, we believe, is this trend towards GPs being a lot more thoughtful in terms of how they're managing their management companies. And thinking about new products, thinking about new geographies, thinking about balance sheets, thinking about succession, thinking about all of these things, which is going to, I think, create an opportunity with regards to the GP stakes market.

50:36We're here to add another tool in the tool set for GPs as they think about their management company and how they want to manage that to give them another tool for liquidity. Where do you think all this goes from here? I mean, I'm on the record for saying that the secondary market is going to get to a trillion dollars by 2031. Whenever I say that, the first reaction is you're crazy. And I've heard that a few times, I guess, in my career. But I have a deep conviction around this prediction. and I think you need to be able to break it down into two parts. How's the volume going to get there and how's the capitalization of the industry going to get there?

51:14Let's talk about the volume. For me, the volume is very simple. It comes down to three things. How big private capital is going to get over the next five to 10 years? What's the churn rate? And as sub -asset classes like real estate, private credit matures, how much are they going to add to this market? Let's go through each one? Private capital. It grew from $5 trillion to $15 trillion from 2016 to 2023. That's a tripling. Can it double by 2030? Think about private wealth. Think about how much capital is coming from private wealth. I would say that's a conservative assumption. So if you believe that private capital can grow to $30 trillion by 2030, the 1 % that we're seeing right now in churn rate in private The capital needs to grow to just over 3 % in order for the secondary market to get to a trillion dollars a year.

52:05And so I think that from our perspective, how do you get that churn rate up? You think about private credit secondaries. You think about real estate. You think about infrastructure, which are still in the early stages of ramping up in terms of AUM. And as those portfolios get more mature, investors are going to need more liquidity. But it's not just that. in private equity itself, LPs are going to become more sophisticated in how they manage their private equity portfolio. Going back to this theory around like, hey, if you haven't done anything for 10 years in public markets, is that fiduciarily responsible?

52:37It's going to be the same question. In 10 years, if you have not done a secondary, people will be looking at you saying, hmm, is that the right thing to do? Once somebody, an LP gets used to selling, it goes back to the market repeatedly because the first time is the hardest. So watch this space. The maturation of private credit, real estate infrastructure, the churn rates going up, and private capital going to $30 trillion by 2030. That should get to a trillion. Time will tell. You've been at this for a decade. What do you think is the bottleneck in why the secondary market is, say, only 1 % of private equity volume today?

53:12So it's been capitalization and it's been resources. Let's go through the history of the secondary market. 2001 to 2011, the decade of institutionalization. It went from 5 billion to 25 billion during that decade. Most of it was just LP secondaries. That was it. 2011 to 2021, it went from 25 billion to 125 billion, 132 to be exact. Another five times growth. But during that decade, it was the decade of innovation. We went from just having LP secondaries to having private credit secondaries, real estate secondaries, infrastructure secondaries. You had single asset continuation fund, multi -asset continuation fund.

53:52You had preferred equity. You have naive lending all in one decade. So we got to $125 billion. But what that has done, it's left the secondary market long opportunity and short capital. There is not enough capital to absorb the pent -up liquidity in this market. So we see 21 to 31 as a decade of capitalization. Generally speaking, what happens is that capital lags opportunity. If you're out in the market right now, there's really two areas where LPs are looking to allocate, private credit and secondaries. It's the talk of the town. So you know that just institutional market, it was $70 billion raised in 2021.

54:33Can it grow seven times to $490 by 2030? It did. That gets you to $500 billion. The second part of this is private wealth. There's $150 trillion in private wealth of assets under management. 2 % of that gets allocated to private equity or private capital. That's $3 trillion. It should be 10 % to 20 % if it follows institutional capital models. That's $15 to $30 trillion of money flowing from private wealth into private capital over how long? Let's take the more conservative number. 10 % of $150 trillion is $15 trillion. three of that is allocated to private capital. That's $12 trillion coming in the next, what, five to 10 years?

55:13What if secondaries would take a quarter of that? You got $3 trillion coming in to secondaries through private wealth. So I think that's the combination of volume and capitalization that gets us to that trillion dollar figure. And time will tell. Where do technology tools come into play to be able to help manage the scale in what historically has just been a deal -by -deal business. It's really interesting. We are a tech -enabled asset management firm. And it's something that we focused on since our early days was we knew technology essentially was going to make a difference. And I remember sitting down with one of my mentors back in the day and I said, what have you done differently if you would do it again?

55:52He's like, technology. If you don't get technology right, you're going to have 25 software systems that won't talk to each other. So we spent a lot of time in our early days really trying to figure out our tech stack. And today, wow, technology has enabled us. AI has enabled us. Machine learning has enabled us. Scraping data, turning that data into information, into insight. That data, if transformed into insight, can be incredibly powerful. So there is a shift going on in this market right now. The people that are leaning into technology are going to be able to differentiate themselves. The people that are lagging are going to be left behind in a hurry.

56:28What are some of the ways that you've used these modern AI tools and machine learning tools to improve your process? We talk about proactively pricing funds. We're using that AI to scrape data and coming out of PDFs into our models. And that allows us to avoid or at the place of using our resources for manual input, you're using it for actual analysis because the data is already in. It also allows for greater accuracy of data because actually those machine learnings are incredibly powerful. The accuracy that we're seeing out of our system, we're just seeing the benefits of that right now. The white papers that we're putting out as an example, these are all because of the data that's available to us that we can transform into insight.

57:13And that's good for the white papers that we put out. But imagine what that can do for our investment process when you've got that much data and you know how to mine it. So data is useless if it's not accurate and data is useless if you don't mine it. So you have to really build a technology platform that enables you to do both. And we feel really good about where we're at right now. What are some of the financial innovations that you're looking at that you think the market might now be ready for but might not have five or 10 years ago? Oh, that's the secret sauce though. Am I allowed to say that?

57:46I don't think I want to do the secret sauce. that's looking into the future, whatever the success is going to be. I do think the secondary market has gone through a big period of innovation. And anytime you go through a period of innovation, you essentially expand the market. The market needs to catch up on capitalization before it can get to the next version of innovation, I would say. The secondary market is setting itself up for the next big wave of growth through all of the innovation that's happened over the last 10 years. As you look at all the transactional data you've collected over the years and you're looking at a new deal, I'm curious what you found the biggest drivers of success for private equity firms in the business.

58:27I really think it's culture. The culture of these firms are so important in terms of are people motivated? Are they rowing in the same direction? Are they well aligned? Are they in a good place? Are they stronger together or are they growing apart? So I think that's one of the big things in terms of continued success is aligning your people with the success of the organization and making sure that the culture is one that is set up for success. And then it's hard. And the reason I paused is because I don't think there's one model in private equity. I think there is so many different models that can get you to success.

59:11And it's different strokes for different folks, and that's okay. The culture of one firm can be very different than the culture in a different firm, but have they attracted the right people that thrive in that culture. Well, Jan, before I let you go, I want to make sure I ask you a couple of closing questions. What is your favorite hobby or activity outside of work and family? Canoing the Arctic. What is one fact that most people don't know about you? I'm an introvert. I may be a social introvert, but I'm an introvert. I need time on my own to recharge. How has that played out in leading a business like this?

59:44Just got to be self -aware of where you are. I have a cottage that's two hours north of Toronto. I spend a lot of time up there in nature at the cottage, and I know when I need it. How do you communicate that to the people around you? They've gotten to know. They'll just tap me on the shoulder and say, I want you to go to the cottage for a couple of days. What's your biggest pet peeve? I would say problem finders versus problem solvers. If you just think outside the box, you can solve anything. self -limiting beliefs, limited thinking. Which two people have had the biggest impact on your professional life?

1:00:23So I would go with David Dennison, who's the ex -CEO of CPPIB. I talk to him probably every couple of weeks and he's been just so good to me in terms of just, he's not a man of many words and hopefully he's okay with me saying this, but he has just got an incredible North Star and he just, these are your blind spots. This is what you need to be careful about. my mother for her good and her challenges. She's been such an incredible supporter and she's given me the conviction to go out there and grow my wings. So I appreciate her. What's the best advice you've ever received? You can be a good person and win.

1:00:56I just really believe that. I have to look at myself in the mirror every day and just be proud of not just what, but how. And I really believe you can do it. if it doesn't feel right, don't do it. Think about the long term. And again, like, I'm not perfect. I will make mistakes. But my intentions are good, or so, I believe. So just do the right thing. Which is actually what's been interesting about the secondary market is that the leaders in the space have, generally speaking, been very good people. There is a camaraderie around the secondary market, which I think is unique. And again, has the market done everything right all the time?

1:01:39No, it's learned along the way. It's made its mistakes. But generally speaking, you've got good people in this industry trying to figure out the right way to do things. All right, Jan, last one. What life lesson have you learned that you wish you knew a lot earlier in life? I would say find inner stillness as quickly as possible. Unpack your shit. Find calm in the chaos. plus make sure that your drive comes from a healthy place, not an unhealthy place. Be very aware of what is driving you. And there's no destination on this journey. So you got to enjoy the ride. How did that come to you in your path?

1:02:18I would say I was pretty insecure in my 20s. I was getting comfortable in my skin in my 30s. My 40s have been my best decade. I've embraced who I am. And I probably about seven, eight years ago, I just started getting curious looking inside. The outside world, I mean, you can have check, check, check, check, check everything. But if you haven't dealt with your shit, it doesn't matter. So what's driving you? We all have fears. We all have patterns. So just be curious and try to unpack the fears that you inherited mostly from your parents, not because they didn't love you, but it's just generational.

1:02:52generational. What are the ones that you discovered that you feel like you've best improved upon? Probably the fear of not being good enough. I definitely was driven by fears. And that's why you said what you should wish you would have done earlier in life. Like, I don't regret anything, and I'm really proud. 14 -year -old Yan would look at 48 -year -old Yan and be like, good for you, bud. From where I started to where I'm at today, I'm like, not arrogance, but just proud. But it took me some time to get to a point where I was like, oh, here are some patterns. Here are some behaviors. How can I do better?

1:03:26How can I improve myself? How can I grow? Well, Jan, thanks so much for sharing this innovative perspective on the secondaries market. Thank you, buddy. It's been fun. Appreciate you. Thanks for listening to the show. To learn more, hop on our website at CapitalAllocators .com, where you can join our mailing list, access past shows, learn about our gatherings, and sign up for premium content, including podcast transcripts, my investment portfolio, and a lot more. Have a good one, and see you next time.