191: Making the Difference: The True North Conversations | Robert White, Brabners

0:01Welcome to Making the Difference, the True North Conversations, powered by the purpose-led independent law firm Rabner's. I'm Michael Heyman, and over the course of six episodes, I'll be speaking to entrepreneurs and business leaders from across the North, each providing incredible insights, stories, and a commitment to people, communities, and the Northern economy. It's bold ideas for change, from a constellation of Northern stars, doing things differently, and making the difference. I'm joined today by Robert White, the Chief Executive of Brabner's and the Co-Chair of True North.

0:40Robert, welcome to the True North Conversations. I mean, it's great to see you, not least because you are one of the coaches, founder co-chair of the True North Network. I mean, you must be very proud of it. What a great achievement. I am immensely proud. You know, I remember when we spoke about it, probably early 23, mid 23, went through the Roundtable series in the summer of 23. We didn't know whether or not people were going to engage with it. And here we are two years later with, I think, a thriving network of fantastic businesses. We've been talking to businesses all day today as part of this series.

1:21And, you know, they are all incredible businesses making the difference. I mean, sort of different parts of their journey from start to scale. But also businesses a bit like Brabner's, right? You know, I mean, your chief executive, Brabner's, that's the day job, right? I mean, introduce the business for us as part of, I suppose, the family of True North. Yeah, so Bradner's is a purpose-led, independent law firm. And I guess that, you know, the purpose element of it and the independence is really critical. That's a real nod to who we are. We're a business that's over 200 years old. And actually, we use that as our strength.

2:03You know, there's a huge, a real degree of heritage that runs from the business. And that's how we run it. You know, we see it as our job in terms of making the difference is to leave the business in a far better place than when we got our hands on it. I mean, I think independence has been a theme that a lot of the businesses have really sort of empathized with and reflected on. I mean, in terms of what that allows the business to do in terms of the decision making criteria, I suppose, and in terms of its direction of travel, how would you sum up its character? I would say it's everything. I would say True North is a fantastic example of what the V in We Make the Difference means.

2:45And it's our independence. Right. And I think we should qualify that We Make the Difference is the mission. Yes, it is the mission. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It leads us, as you correctly say, to True North. In terms of framing it, the macro picture, what it is, why it matters, where it's going. Give us a kind of a, give us a pitch. There's two sides of the coin here, really, as it relates to True North. It's actually about stepping into the opportunity that is there and playing our part as a purpose-led business community in unlocking the north's true potential there's fantastic stuff happening here fantastic businesses that are happening here that you don't generally hear about no that's right yeah so i say that's the stepping into the opportunity bit the born out of frustration bit is everybody knows that there is a chasm between northern productivity and northern prosperity.

3:49The key question is, what are we going to do about it? And so again, the the and we make the difference is, as True North and as Brabners, playing our part as responsible businesses in unlocking the potential and thereby addressing the productivity and prosperity. But I suppose critically though, business-led. This is not something that's coming from the state. This is something about businesses self-organizing and, I suppose, self-advocating in terms of their position. Because I think what you put your finger on is a really important one, which is who shines a light on progress, where you're seeing it, right?

4:30And so there's a whole multi-layer, a whole host of reasons why a key, probably the key element of True North is exactly that. It is about business and it's about how business can and actually how businesses are playing their part because, you know, the opportunities and the challenges that we all know exist are generational. And so part of True North is advocating moving beyond short-term political cycles, for example, and businesses get that they know that you need uh you know you need to think long term and they have a brilliant amazing track record around delivery and they're looking i think also for a kind of ambition culture you know they want they want to they want to go big yeah they want to stay rooted they know where they're from they know what they're about but they want to they they want to go as far as they can go and there is something about about ambition that came up in in the conversations that we've been having today, which is about the future of the ecosystem.

5:39And I suppose another ambitious way of looking at True North is 500 plus businesses now that actually need to have their place in the sun, right? They need that sort of support. And what we've heard about today is everything from access to capital, access to people, access to markets. I mean, this is a manifesto an agenda for the north isn't it it is and you know there's several aspects to uh to true north in in that respect in that uh businesses i think understand and they get it uh and there is a truth that a lot of businesses particularly privately owned owner managed businesses have perhaps felt uh unheard not listened to and that they don't have a voice and so true north is really designed it's there to create the platform the community that gives them that voice whether it's inside the community i mean it's not a lobbying organization but it gives a voice a voice to these businesses that maybe uh haven't had the light shine on them And it's impossible not to be infused and motivated.

6:57And I think, you know, we both say that, wouldn't we? Pick it up in terms of your own experience, like the businesses you've met, and I suppose the impact that it's had on you as a leader. I mean, it is just unbelievably encouraging. You know, there have been times where, like everybody, you know, you get kind of worn down by the bump and grind. And I'll just show up, whether it's a True North event, or going into academies, going into communities, meeting businesses that I didn't even know existed, that perhaps, you know, you might characterize as unsexy in terms of what they do, but they're massively innovative.

7:39And you just walk out with a real spring in your step. And it just, it just gives this sense that we have hit upon this theme. Yeah. And I suppose it's the awakening, I suppose, of the idea of business as a force for progress. You know, that actually it's part of the connective tissue of communities and societies and that actually making sure that you have climates and environments where small firms can thrive and medium-sized big firms can thrive. But a business has a role beyond profit in terms of the difference that it makes. Absolutely. And, you know, I kind of view it in calendar years, really.

8:23So 2024, having launched was actually about building the network. 2025 was that. And really, I think getting a real sense of what do we actually stand for as a network. And one of the key things is all about collaboration. And that's collaboration within the network, outside the network, across the region as a whole, public, private, the whole thing. Because when, and I'll say when purposefully, when we do address the productivity chasm that we all know exists, it has to be done through collaboration. We have to move beyond the old fashioned way of if one part of the region loses, another one wins and vice versa.

9:09I mean, I think alongside that collaboration is also the issue of empowerment, isn't it? I mean, a lot of the businesses that we've been talking to will talk about kind of what they've unleashed in terms of potential. And of course, a lot of what we are living through in the North of England is a devolved climate where a lot of that empowerment is now starting to sort of reveal itself, I guess. And I know that you are a big believer in it, Robert. I mean, make the case for us, will you? Yeah, well, alongside collaboration, another one of the things that we stand for is making devolution work. and you know i even before all this i was a really strong advocate partly because i had my own fingers burnt in trying to run a business you know that was geographically miles away centrally and it just is more difficult and so you know the centralized model just doesn't work and therefore devolution has to be part of the answer yeah has to be the key that unlocks it has to have very entrepreneurial traits like belief trust yeah you know um or business traits and businesses get that yeah and therefore i guess that feeds into the collaboration bit you know with a devolved power that i think will naturally more so think longer term beyond short-term political cycles engaging with the business community and engaging with them on delivery has to be the route to success.

10:48And when you look at where we are today in terms of, I suppose, those who've got their hands on the policy levers and in terms of actually have got the job with making this work, I mean, what's both sides of the ledger like for you in terms of, I suppose, the opportunities and obstacles to actually... Because I think nobody can disagree with the idea that actually the more power you put in people's hands, in theory, the better the outcome should be. well where are we though on the on the journey i think there are different parts of the region that are at different stages and that's the really exciting thing i think um and so for example if you look at and i'm always hesitant about comparing regions because that goes against but i think you just have to do that so if you look at you know manchester for example as a combined authority which is perhaps further along the journey than other parts of of the region you can really start to see devolution collaboration placed based investment in infrastructure transport energy the things we know about is all starting to deliver greater economic growth not just in manchester but in now increasingly the regions around it like trafford Salford Oldham if you look at Liverpool for example that's less kind of that's not quite as far along but you can start to see it in Liverpool itself hasn't yet permeated out into the other authorities in the combined authorities so there's now and I quite often say it's starting to and presumably both sides of the Pennines on that yeah you know in Yorkshire as well and and it gives a sense of I suppose, what the operating conditions might be.

12:44But tell us about the businesses that you're meeting, because of course we've had a big focus on what we call the Northern Stars. These are the perhaps a more entrepreneurial part of the True North community, but they're also very big businesses involved in this. I mean, it's a real, it gives a sense of the mix of that community. Yeah. So it's part of the reason why I tend not to use the SME thing. I talk about privately owned, owner managed businesses typically because there are huge businesses. Anybody that likes the term SME. Exactly, I don't. The network is represented across probably the majority of sectors that you could think about, represented across the region as a whole and all different types and sizes of businesses.

13:38And I guess the thing that brings them all together is this desire to be part of the solution. That's right. I think there's an implied positivity. There's a sense that actually you can build cultures that can last, that can grow. And I also think, is there something about a real belief in the best of people? Is there something in that that's another common denominator? There definitely is. And that's part of the reason we talk about purpose led businesses, because a business, in my view, has to be part of the answer. And therefore, particularly as it relates to collaborating with, let's say, public bodies, there has to be that trust that actually we are all in this together as a community, as a whole.

14:38and you can trust purpose-led businesses to do the right thing. But there's still a way to go. I mean, we've spoken to people that are, you know, one business that's healthy that's come out of an NHS experience. I mean, lots of people that are in this kind of, I suppose, intersectional sort of like relationship between, I suppose, worlds where trust in business is not what it should, what it could be. Maybe there are good reasons why that is the case. but you've also got that unbridled optimism that actually business is a problem solver it's a solution provider and i suppose if if you know you've got with a with a conversation like this i suppose there's a platform in terms of actual what is the potential of northern business in terms of actually as you see it to be part of that that that mission i guess um it's huge and I do think we are in a moment in time where devolution, a recognition that investment needs to happen and the idea of collaborating is creating this moment in time and businesses are ready to play their part in that and again there are great examples here in Liverpool for example where you know when the public sector invests the private sector then tenfold comes in and invests in programs it you know grounded in place that have a huge regenerative positive and i guess that's just illustrative that business has to be part of the answer but also they have a great track record on delivery as well it almost feels like the metaphor in my mind is of unleashing the spring yeah you know to spring forward and um but I suppose in terms of the question that comes on top of that is how far can the spring go because I've just got back from the states um I'm in the city that comes to mind that I'm thinking about is Austin where I spent some time and the entrepreneurial energy is not only palpable it's part of what makes the place tick because it's like it's not like the it's not like the entrepreneur is is the receiving end it actually is the originator yeah it informs the universities it informs the culture of some of the biggest global corporations that are there because of that energy i suppose in terms of looking at the north of england in terms of an entrepreneurial dream or a business dream for the North.

17:13I mean, how far has it got to go and how easy is it to narrate that in the same way that you might understand, say, an American dream? Yeah, I think it is easy to narrate it. And I also believe the answers are in plain sight. That doesn't mean to say that it is easy to unlock the opportunity. And you mentioned the Northern Stars earlier, part of the reasoning behind the Northern Stars was and is to shine a light on these great businesses that are doing great things almost to you know to demonstrate that it's happening and hopefully to create the impression that the North is a fantastic place so there has been lazy stereotypes about what Northern business is about and I guess you know Northern Stars true North You know, the whole positioning around it is aspirational.

18:08So I'm tempted to say the sky's the limit. Sky's the limit. And I was at an event this week, actually, where, you know, as a, actually as a country, but as a region, we over-index on startups. However, we under-index on scale-ups. And the impact that scale-ups have on prosperity and productivity is amplified. It's enormous. And so what we have to do in partnership with all the relevant stakeholders is understand what are the things that are preventing our startups becoming scale-ups. And then how do we build around them? it's a bit i was i was thinking as i was kind of listening to it if you think about british cycling and gb you know the fundamental cultural shift there was that the support mechanism shifted such that the athlete was at the center yeah and i think we have to have that kind of mentality where these scale-up businesses are at the center yeah and maybe that's another way of looking at what true north is all exactly it's a destination right and i suppose the thing is is it's not necessarily as easy as saying it's a point and shoot exercise about scale-ups.

19:23This is about the next generation that's going to come through. This is about the S &P used to have a fantastic stat about how many world-beating businesses hadn't even started yet. And what they showed was how that picture was accelerating. So if you look at AI businesses, if you look at the whole wave of new generation businesses that are going to grow quickly, I suppose this is all part of how you create the conditions for success for them here in the north and that could be everything as far back as into schools into startup cultures and then ultimately into scale-up support absolutely and and i think that does then lead into well what why why are we doing this you know and we quite often talk about true north is to some extent an adapter yeah it's about putting together the different parts and plugging them together and and that does lead into you know why am i as chief exec of Bradner's with your help.

20:20Not to say it's in a review meeting. No, no, no, no. But it's a good question. Why do it? Life can be a lot easier. The nature of our business is it takes us into so many of these different areas that we can act as that convener, as the adapter, and bringing together these different elements of opportunity such that we create the environment. Well, I have to say I've been walking the floors today and I've met loads of Bravner's colleagues. And I mean, I could tell you, loads of people have come up to me with, oh, I've got this business. Oh, I'd love to introduce you to. Oh, you know, there's a genuine, I mean, I think there was a give, but I think there's also a get, right?

20:59You know, in terms of, I suppose, the cultural excitement, the kind of the sense of mission, the sense of value add that you're supporting that is not just kind of, you know, one or two people in a business, but actually a firm-wide, hopefully growing appreciation of what it's all about. Yeah. And look, as you know, True North is all about data-led practical solutions. And I would say that is also the case of Bradners. We're all about substance and actually doing things. That is the the, and we make the difference. And so True North is there, and our mission to make the difference is there for people to engage in because it is a true reflection i think of who we are so i'm delighted to hear that people are engaging with you yeah we've got some new ideas but let's come back to the sort of i suppose the the true north um ideal i've asked the same closing question for for all all of our guests um in in these conversations but you know this idea that True North is a direction of travel.

22:11Yeah. It's a direction of travel for businesses, but it's also a direction of travel for people, right? You know, in terms of actually where this is taking you, how this is affecting you. How is True North as a co-chair of the organization where I suppose in many ways you are at the pivot of setting the course, how does it affect you as a leader? it renews my sense of uh aspiration uh and you know as i say you go out and meet these businesses that are doing great stuff and it just renews that sense of the entrepreneurialism the the aspiration the desire to succeed but more so the desire to succeed for the good of the communities as a whole that they operate in is live kicking and healthy and tangible and tangible absolutely yeah and and so yeah it is inspiring and um i've been to a whole host of events and businesses where i come away feeling inspired and so it it's renewed my own enthusiasm for for business you know what what a great place to end it then rob and thank you so much for joining on the True North Conversations.

23:30Thank you.