194: BAE Systems' Caitlin Hayden on Leading in a Faster, Messier, Tougher World

0:03Bradley Akubuiro:Welcome to Changemakers. I'm Bradley Akubuiro. Leadership today rarely comes with the luxury of certainty. The pace is faster, the environment is messier, and the decisions are tougher. And for leaders operating at the intersection of business, geopolitics, and public trust, the pressure to communicate clearly has never been greater. My guest today knows that world intimately. Caitlin Hayden is Group Communications Director at BAE Systems, where she leads global communications and sits on the Executive Committee. Before joining BAE, she served in the Obama White House on national security and communications, working across issues from cybersecurity to global conflict with experience in Afghanistan and Iraq.

0:51Bradley Akubuiro:This is a conversation about leadership under pressure, communicating through uncertainty, and building trust when the stakes are high. Welcome to Changemakers. I am so excited, Caitlin, to have this discussion with you today.

1:05Caitlin Hayden:Thanks, Bradley. Glad to be here.

1:06Bradley Akubuiro:And what an auspicious time to be having this conversation.

1:10Caitlin Hayden:Yeah, I mean, there's a lot going on in the world, for sure. And in our world, in communications, it's changing a lot.

1:17Bradley Akubuiro:Yeah, absolutely. And you're such a great person to talk about these things. We have had conversations over the years about so many of the topics that impact the moment we're having right now, where things are, as I like to say, faster, messier, and tougher. But I'd like to take a step back and really explore your career. You've done so many things within diplomacy, within foreign policy broadly, within communications, now one of the most influential defense companies in the world. Talk to us a little bit about the through lines of the choices you've made in your career.

1:51Caitlin Hayden:Yeah. It's a really interesting question because I think there's a couple three lines, but I'm not sure I did that intentionally. But I think at each juncture, I've always wanted my job to be about happiness and growth for me personally. And then wanting to work on things that were challenging and had complexity and where there was a chance to have an impact. So I think happiness and growth and I think in each phase of my career, those have been different things. I mean, you kind of always ask myself, like, what am I solving for? And at each phase, I'm solving for something different in life. Like right now, I have an amazing eight and a half year old daughter.

2:33Caitlin Hayden:Sometimes I'm solving for things that give me that flexibility where earlier in my career, I wasn't solving for that. But fundamentally, I want to do something that is complex and challenging and where I feel like I'm part of something that's going to have an impact, hopefully a positive impact. That's why I got into government to begin with right out of grad school. I just wanted to be part of something kind of bigger that was trying to do something good in the world. And then I've just tried to do that throughout. I think that's probably the through line is like complexity, impact.

3:03Bradley Akubuiro:And I love the point that you just made in terms of you wanted to also kind of create not only something that's complementary for you professionally, but personally as you're figuring out what happens next. I think that's so important. And I think so many people miss that part of it.

3:17Caitlin Hayden:Yeah. Yeah, I've always had kind of an idea of what I wanted to do. But I think if you have a plan and stick really rigorously to that plan, you're going to miss out on a lot of things. You've got to account for what's changing in your life, what you need at the moment, what's going on in the world. My job now, sitting in the UK at a company, BA Systems, that I frankly had never heard of earlier in my career, I would not have thought that this is where I'd be. And I'm so thrilled I am, but it was about making choices along the way that kind of helped me build to this moment. But if I'd set on a path to get here, I probably wouldn't have.

3:58Caitlin Hayden:So, yeah, I just try to solve for the moment in my life. Am I going to be doing something I'm really excited about in a culture that I can thrive in, where I'm being kind of tested intellectually? Actually, if those things are there, great, I'm going to give it a try. And I think you know this because you know me. That's led me to serve in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and travel all over the world that I would never have planned for myself. So I think taking risks along the way with as long as you know what you're solving for opens up all these possibilities. So, yeah, I there was never a plan.

4:34Caitlin Hayden:There's still not a plan.

4:37Bradley Akubuiro:And it's worked out so well. I mean, I actually want to pull on that last thread, which is you have spent time in many different theaters. You have been in national security and foreign policy. Talk a little bit about how your background, whether at the U.S. State Department or national security apparatus, has kind of informed the way you think about the job today, particularly in a moment where geopolitics is playing such a significant role. Yeah, I think I think the answer to that is kind of in two buckets.

5:09Caitlin Hayden:One, working in a global environment like that and having to travel and try to understand different governmental systems, different backgrounds, histories, you start to really recognize quite how big the world is and how different it might be from where you're sitting. And I think there can, in big companies in particular, especially, you know, I've spent most of my life in Washington, D.C. and a lot of time here in London. You could work in those places and start to think that the world revolves around you and that everybody's paying attention to you and start to make decisions based on that feeling that you're in the most important place in the world.

5:51Caitlin Hayden:And actually, in most markets, in most countries, they're kind of aware of what you're doing, but they're not living and breathing your world. they're living and breathing their world. And so getting that perspective, that kind of global understanding, I think has really helped me in a role like this, where we're in 40, we're selling to customers in 40 different countries, and I can't be so involved in my own world that I don't understand the context around me. So that kind of global mindset. And then the second is in those jobs, you're under a lot of scrutiny, a lot of pressure. And I think doing those kinds of roles has really taught me the importance of, I'm not British, but to be very British about kind of staying calm to carry on, you have to kind of stay calm to get yourself through any number of issues.

6:45Caitlin Hayden:And so in the corporate world, there are a lot of things that feel really big, and you just have to take a breath and be strategic about what you're going to do next. And I think working under the pressure of kind of global eyes on you in the U.S. government taught me to be really thoughtful and to know that there are going to be a lot of eyes on you and you need to get it right. So take a breath, think it through before you go out and take an action. So I think those are kind of the things that have really helped me and shaped the strategic counsel that I now give people. And I worked at a PR firm for a few years and providing that counsel to clients as well, not just in my in-house role.

7:29Caitlin Hayden:But I think it's really shaped the advice that I give around, you know, staying calm and listening and thinking about what's going on outside of your little world.

7:40Bradley Akubuiro:Yeah, yeah. I want to shift gears just a little bit. You are on the executive leadership team for BAE Systems. You are part of the defense ecosystem in a major way. And this is a sector that has been quite disrupted recently. You know, we're talking AI, major security threats. We have multiple wars that are going on across the world right now. How does an organization that has the legacy and the tradition that you all have evolve as you need to in this moment? What does it actually look like to continue to push forward?

8:16Caitlin Hayden:I know a lot of your listeners will be in the U.S., and I think BA Systems is not as well known in the U.S. market as it is here in the U.K., but we've got about 110 ,000 employees around the world, and our history goes back hundreds and hundreds of years to royal ordinance here in the U.K., and so we have this really long legacy. And I think what you're talking about, there's the disruption of global events. There's kind of increases in defense spending to kind of account for that. So the inputs are changing, the customer demands are changing, and then the landscape is changing. We've got these disruptors coming in.

8:54Caitlin Hayden:These are nontraditional players. And it is a really challenging and interesting moment for us as a company. And I think a lot of what we try to think about is, you know, really listening to the customer demand. And we're a really trusted brand and a trusted company. And that's hard earned. That is really hard earned over the years. And I think for us, we have to figure out how to kind of meet that moment that we're in without losing all the trust and equity we've built up. I think particularly in communications, you know, we're always scanning and looking at what other people are doing and saying that that was really interesting, exciting.

9:35Caitlin Hayden:Should we do that? And I think it's really important for all of us to stop and ask ourselves what got us here and not go jump and do something that maybe is inauthentic to who we are and that maybe isn't drawing on our best strengths. And so we're in this really interesting moment where I think there are a lot of competitors who are quite interesting and non-traditional and doing flashy things. And we are trying to be really thoughtful about not reinventing ourselves, but evolving ourselves to kind of meet the moment that we're in. And I think there can always be an impulse to move quickly and to go be a part of a conversation.

10:16Caitlin Hayden:And, you know, there's sometimes we we might take a risk and step outside our box, but you've got to worry about what's true to to your company and your brand. And so for us, it's a really interesting moment. And I think I sit in these these forums talking to our employees and my boss, the CEO, will say, I just think we need to do a better job of telling our story. And I said, that's what we're doing. That's what we're trying to do to help people understand how innovative we are and how exciting that is. And you know this, Bradley, I think communications often have the best jobs at that table because we get to see across, we see what's special about what we do, and we get to tell the story of not just our kind of products, but our people.

11:01Caitlin Hayden:So it's a fascinating time to try and navigate this environment. But I think, as you said, global conflict, you know, it's an uncertain moment for a lot of people. And it can't just be business as usual, do what we've always done, because things are changing. And if we don't acknowledge that, we're not going to be effective in helping people understand how we're going to be along the journey with them.

11:30Bradley Akubuiro:Yeah. As you say this, I think when you are thinking about the culture of an organization and how you move it along, it is so difficult to come in and say, this is what I believe and therefore we should go do. How do you actually convince both leaders and others to come along with you?

11:49Caitlin Hayden:The bringing people along in the journey is one of the most important things. I mean, where I sit at the table in the boardroom, it's one thing to make a decision, but it doesn't become real until everyone in the organization is bought in and moving in that direction. and not to go on too much of a tangent, but I think I would just shout out the incredible importance in every organization of people managers. It's one thing to kind of lead from the top, but it's actually the people in the business who are going to make everything real. And so bringing them along is about listening and it's about explaining the why.

12:26Caitlin Hayden:I mean, you can't just send a note out to people managers who actually don't know anything more than is in the note and say, go explain this to all of your teams. And if they have questions, they should ask you. But actually, we haven't told you anything beyond what's in the note. So I think we have to really, as you build plans and need to bring people along on the change journey, you have to really kind of almost double down on the time in advance of listening to people, investing them in it, actually changing plans where you get feedback. But people need to understand the why. And I've talked about this in your amazing book, Bradley, but I think the people are more understanding and more trusting of a decision if they understand what's driving it and they understand who's driving it.

13:15something given to them in a vacuum, I mean, it's really hard to go along with a thing if you don't

13:21Caitlin Hayden:really understand why the company's doing it. You might not agree with it, but if you know why and you know that they thought about you in the process, you the employee or you the stakeholder, you the customer, you know, you've got some more grace for that. So I think you have to bring people along by listening and explaining, not just announcing. It's not good enough to just say, here's an announcement's coming in two days, I gave you some notice. It needs to be real engagement. And that's hard to do. It's hard to build in the time for, but it's what makes the difference between something kind of feeling like an edict and something feeling like a new direction.

13:59Bradley Akubuiro:Yeah. And it seems that we're in this kind of space in the world where people respect and appreciate that more from their leaders, right? There is a lot of, you know, top down, but also So there is so much more respect for leaders who, you know, can relate and connect and understand where people are coming from. And so you embody that so well.

14:16Caitlin Hayden:Oh, thanks. Well, I think we all want to be part of something that feels human. Just knowing that your boss is a human. And I mean, I spend a lot of time trying to be really clear with my team that it's okay to say, I don't know. Because guess what? We don't all know the answers. and to share some of what's going on behind the scenes. To say, you know, I have a kid. I have things going on at home. We're all humans and we need to have grace for each other. And so I try to be really, really human. And if that's messy sometimes, then it's messy sometimes. But that's what we all are. And I think that's what, you know, we have to recognize when we're trying to all just muck in and get stuff done together.

15:03Caitlin Hayden:It's just other humans. So, yeah, I'm maybe over-vulnerable sometimes. I'm not sure everybody wants to know all the things that I share. But, you know, our leaders are just people as well trying to do their best.

15:17Bradley Akubuiro:Yeah. Well, on the vein of trying to actually get people to think about the objectives of an organization in ways that really motivate them, how do you think about innovation? How do you create the next phase of defense innovation? How do you create the next phase of really kind of building towards this future when things are moving so fast, people have so many inputs coming at them? How do you still kind of align them around moving forward?

15:44Caitlin Hayden:Yeah, I think that is where very clear kind of mission and values and purpose come into the mix. If people understand who you are, what you're trying to achieve, have a really clear ambition, then it's easier to cut through the noise. What helps me get there and what doesn't? It is like it's really overwhelming to be an audience of anything. It's particularly overwhelming if you're a people manager in a business. Every different function and part of the business is telling you to do something and it's not prioritized. How do you cut through that? It's a really hard job. And I think we would all do well to recognize how hard it is to lead people in an organization.

16:28Caitlin Hayden:And that's why we owe people a really clear ambition, strategy, values, you know, purpose. So I think really helping people understand that is key to cutting through. I also think, you know, flat structures, safe environment to be giving ideas. I mean, particularly we, you know, at BA Systems, we have a lot of manufacturing. Safety is so important. And if you don't create an environment where people can call out, I see something that is wrong, I see a problem, you could have real catastrophic effects of that. Similarly, you know, you talked about the environment changing. We've got these amazing disruptive companies coming into our space.

17:15Caitlin Hayden:And I should say we welcome that. But that is a really good thing, not just for our customer, but it pushes us as well. But I think you're not going to get the best ideas, the moonshot, the incredible innovation, the why don't we, if you don't create an environment where people feel like they can say something without reprisal or that they'll be heard, that they'll genuinely be heard. I want the big ideas. I want the crazy ideas. Even if we say there's no way we can do that. You still want the idea. So I think flat structures, feedback loops, actually listening to people and an environment where people feel like they can can bring their ideas and kind of everything, everything they've got in their heads that they can actually contribute that.

17:55Caitlin Hayden:I think that's the key to us all being able to move faster to innovate. And it's true for an organization like us, but I think it's probably also true for organizations who are who are smaller or in completely different industries. Yeah.

18:09Bradley Akubuiro:You mentioned a few minutes ago, you contributed to the book, Faster, Mess, Your Tougher, Crisis Communications in this era of populism, AI and distrust. And I so appreciate you doing that. I'd love to just kind of hear your perspective on how this world has changed and how the moment in communications not only is different, but what's needed.

18:29Caitlin Hayden:Yeah, and it's a really big question and a really good one. I think, you know, not to wind the clock back too far, but I often tell the folks who work with me, you know, when I used to do media clips, I would, you know, I was on Capitol Hill and I would be cutting them out of the newspaper and pasting them on and copying them. You know, things have moved quite, quite fast. But I think in the last five to five or so years, and you really capture this in the book, the the job of someone in our roles doing crisis communication, doing corporate affairs is there's so many things coming at you. I mean, I think the three big changes that I see and reflect on and try to manage in my role are around, you know, information coming from a million different sources, mis - and disinformation, and issues management challenge could come from anywhere now.

19:22Caitlin Hayden:It isn't just I know my stakeholders and I'm monitoring them. It surrounds sound. So an issue can come from anywhere. Second, I think, is the increase in expectation of our stakeholders, and that's our kind of customers, but also our employees, of what the company is going to provide them in terms of mission, purpose, answers, value. all of the data over the past five years is about how institutions are losing trust amongst the general public. And in many cases, businesses are the most trusted institutions. So they're looking to you to do the right thing, to explain things. So that expectation is ratcheted up.

20:06Caitlin Hayden:And then the third is that it's now no longer the case that a crisis you have comes from the core of your business operations, that if you just know where your, you know, potential potholes are, then you're okay. Your risk register is all set. It's now the case that you will be held accountable for things going on in your supply chain, people funding you, not even something you're doing, who are your investors. And so that means the risk register is, you know, it is expanded wildly. And so I think, what does all that mean? I mean, I don't have all the answers. I will listen to more of your guests to find out what they can teach me.