193: BPI Europe President Jo-ann Robertson on grit, curiosity and the bravery of big ideas

0:03Michael Hayman:Hello, I'm Michael Hayman and you're listening to Changemakers. Now, my guest today is Jo-ann Robertson, the new president of Europe and transatlantic growth at BPI Group. Self-described as positivity personified and fueled by Glaswegian negotiating skills, her career has taken her from student politics at the University of Strathclyde to the PR jury at Cannes to leading one of the world's largest agency networks. Now with BPI, she's leaning into her roots as a disruptor to build a transatlantic business bridge at a moment of intense global change. This is a story about resilience and why sometimes you need a bit of grit in the oyster to drive progress.

0:45Michael Hayman:Joanne, welcome to Changemakers. It's great to see you. If I was looking for a definition of you, it is the glass half full. Positivity personified. Great to see you. Great to see you too. Thank you for having me. Oh, well, brilliant to get you on your first few days in the new job. Bully Pulpit International, BPI. You've just written a really interesting post about what a bully pulpit moment is and what it means to you. Pick up the story. Definitely. Well, look, when I was approached by bully pulpit, God, almost a year ago exactly, because I was in a global role, I had heard of them in the US, but I'd never really paid much attention.

1:24and I was enamored by this thing. Like, what is this bully pulpit international? Now, my husband is obsessed with American politics. So he gave me a quick, you know, summary rundown. But as I... So what did he say?

1:39Michael Hayman:What's the one line? He said it was defined by Theodore Roosevelt that ideas are fine, but unless they have incredible communication, they don't drive progress. And I think that's absolutely right. That's great. Yeah. And look, as I got to know... uh the bpi team in the us europe the uk i could see why it was such a perfect name because for for the firm but also for the industry right we are in a time where big ideas in every walk of life are needed yeah it's funny you say that because i was just as you were speaking i was thinking idealism is a word that i would very much associate with you and and not just as in the idea of it being idealistic, but the very fact that ideas matter.

2:24Michael Hayman:They matter so much. Right. They matter so much. In our industry, in the world, it's funny, I grew up in corporate comms, right? And then I moved to Ketchum, which is a very brand agency. And so I was immediately immersed in the world of consumer brand communications where creative is like the heart and soul. What's the lesson for corporates? And I embraced it, right? Because I was like, well, if I'm in this new world, I was still at the beginning doing corporate and public affairs. I then went on to do, actually mostly consumer brand, but with a deep corporate sense. And for me, when you have people who are curious, both intellectually and culturally, who are not afraid to throw big, meaningful, purposeful ideas into the mix and be able to bring a client on that journey, bring another human on that journey, that's game changing for businesses, for people, for organizations.

3:16So as I come to Bully Pulpit International, the fact that that's embedded in so much of the firm already, and I think we can take it to a whole new level, was incredibly attractive because ideas matter more than ever. Well, I suppose ideas matter,

3:31Michael Hayman:but you've also got to have the bravery to implement them. And I suppose the question of the brave advisor is a big one, right? In terms of a very febrile commercial environment, political environment, economic environment. I mean, speaking truth and to power is not for the faint-hearted. No, and people are scared, right? If anyone's out there right now claiming that they're not frightened of what's happening in the world and in society, they've definitely got their head in the sand. People are scared. And people are scared of change. They always have been. You look at all the psychology around it.

4:07It's rare to find people who embrace change.

4:09Michael Hayman:We say we want it. We don't really. It's uncomfortable, right? It's really uncomfortable. But it's at the heart of progress, of course. Indeed. And I'm someone who does genuinely love change. I love a bit of grit in the oyster. I love to have a debate. And I always say, you know, I grew up in a working class family on a council estate in Scotland. Yeah, first in my family to go to university. Never knew anybody who was in this type of job. How did that shape you? Well, I don't see hierarchy. Right. And I was never taught middle class norms, right? It wasn't part of growing up. obviously I started to then understand it because I went to a middle class school, cell estate school, but out of my town.

4:51So I started, when I got to 11, 12, I started to realise.

4:54Michael Hayman:But you see things from a lot of different angles. I do, but also I'm never afraid. And I would say 80 % of my career that has served me so incredibly well. There's been a 20 % where people haven't liked it or enjoyed it. I mean, being married to a Glaswegian, I love that you've described yourself as having Glaswegian negotiating skills. I mean, I have some insights into what they might be, but I think that does speak to a certain element of toughness. It speaks to a certain element of no nonsense. And what else does it speak to? Straight talking. Straight talking. You know, no one ever has to guess where they are with me.

5:35I really believe, and I would say that's the superpower I have with clients, you know. I'm also I don't try to make things sound more intellectually

5:45Michael Hayman:than they are intelligent than they are because often the answer is the obvious one right so I remember early in my career sitting in rooms where there were many people pontificating over an issue and then I would be the one who would say I've never been accused of pontificating I'm sure not I'm sure not but I would be the one in the room who would say sorry like isn't it just a cup and around the room like what would happen is like clients would be like yes it is and i think there's a lot of bravery and a lot of self-awareness where you don't feel you have to over intellectualize things well there's also a lot of smarts and simplicity of course as well i mean one of the things though i guess is what a lot of people will say is that the advisory world is not brave enough in offering its opinion it will often say well on the one hand you could do this on the other hand you could do that i mean are we at an environment now where in a world where there is so much you know sort of uncertainty this this stormy environment i mean do do advisors need to have more lead in the pencil in their ability to give the point of view give the advice and ultimately stand by the advice accountable for it yes i mean i've always felt that and in a world that is more complex and more volatile than ever it's not useful to a client.

7:08I mean, I read, I read, it was actually an analyst report of the recent Omnicom earnings. Having just come out of Omnicom, I'm still interested in what's happening there and the consolidation after the acquisition of IPG. And their chief technology officer basically said, and I'm paraphrasing, but essentially what he said was, with our tech stat, we will be able to give clients 50 different creative options and they can choose which one they want.

7:37Michael Hayman:And my immediate reaction was like, what client in their right mind wants that, right? And actually, most clients could probably generate that themselves with the fast-paced evolution of technology. And so I think that's playing the wrong game. Well, they always want the navigator, don't they? They want somebody who can take the compass points and actually make some sense of what the chart is showing them. Yes, and I think it's about, I always do think you have to be curious and well-read and interested enough in the world that you can see the different perspectives, right? So you cannot be narrow-minded in that your solution is the only solution because that's not true.

8:12For most issues that clients face, there are multiple options. But the point is you briefly, I'm a big fan of brevity, you briefly outline what those options are and then you stick your flag in the sand and say, based on my experience, my knowledge of your company and what's happening in the world, this is my best advice to you. Right.

8:34Michael Hayman:Now, you and I have been speaking this morning at a business event where I think I would sum it up by saying you had this macro pessimism about the world around us and this micro positivity of that might be the case, but we'll be all right because of whatever the local conditions might be. But that does speak to an environmental position in terms of how leaders feel about business at the moment. Talk to us about good communications in that environment and I suppose how they contribute to the rise of the resilient corporation. Oh, I love that phrase, the rise of the resilient corporation. Well, look, I think comms is a tool.

9:16It's not the starting point. And I think that's a mistake that many businesses make. They think communications is the answer when actually the core decisions they make about their business are the most important thing. And we go back to the word bravery. I think because people are fearful, because there's so much uncertainty. I mean, you go to bed and you don't know what you're going to wake up to the next morning, geopolitically, economically. And so leaders, and I say this politically and in business and in society, become too passive. they're like oh I'm going to move whatever way the wind has blown overnight I want to be agile enough to move against it.

9:58What's behind that do you think?

9:59Michael Hayman:Because I suppose there has been you know for most of our lifetimes there's been a view where you know I suppose political environments are relatively benign because they've been quite stable. Well you look back I was joking with a friend of mine at the weekend where it was like you think back, now I was kind of a young political activist at university when we were having the transition from like Bush to Clinton. And we thought they were like polar opposites. Like, you know, one was left and one was right. In fact, I mean, now I'm older, wiser, hopefully. I look back and I'm like, God, they were like two sides of the same coin, right?

10:37So there was differentiation. There was a different political philosophy. But it was a very stable transition, right? You now look at how we've moved from a Biden to a Trump and it has been seismic for society and for business. So we can no longer rely on...

10:56Michael Hayman:It might be more seismic again in the future. Well, probably, right? I mean, I suppose how you prepare for that because I think every generation kind of reaches a point where they think they've got it sorted and they kind of understand the world. And then, of course, the world then changes again. And Gito Harry, our colleague Gito Harry, this morning, I think, made a point that I make all the time to my own family, never many clients, which is, my mum always said this to me growing up, don't worry about what you can't control. Because that's time wasted. And I do think there are too many humans right now, what we cannot control this Trump administration, and the decisions they make, for example, to go to war in Iran.

11:36We have no control. But what we do control, have control over, what businesses have control over is where they are taking their organization. And not enough of them have that North Star, that vision for, even if it's for 12 months. And we used to talk about having a five-year strategy, right? And I still think that's relevant. I think if you have a business strategy for five years, you do need agility. You do have to adapt, but you don't have to change course. And so for me, that's the core of it.

12:03Michael Hayman:Well, I think the agility point is really interesting. By the way, we should just say for listeners, Geeta Harig, former director of communications at Number 10. So he knows a thing or two about some of these issues, I guess. But I suppose one thing that comes to mind is that when I look at your career, Jan, I would say purpose leadership is an important part of it in terms of the causes, the ideas that you have championed and made at the heart of your own leadership style. But quite a lot of those ideas are under pressure at the moment. Oh, to fashion, you might see. Well, environment, diversity, equity, and inclusion, they were things that seemed to be increasingly mainstream.

12:46Michael Hayman:And now, as you say, there is a much bigger issue in terms of actually where they sit within business priorities. And I suppose your feeling about that as a naturally positive person, I mean, is that time to double down in the fight to make your case? or actually is it now the importance is to reposition and rethink? I think it's both, right? So I think I'm so hugely disappointed by many people who've just collapsed like a house of cards at the first sign. Right. DI in particular was out of fashion. And what that teaches us, what certainly teaches me is so much of what happened between 2020 and 2024-5 was performative because it was in fashion.

13:39So it wasn't deep and meaningful. And that's, you know, I am an everly optimistic person. It's just disappointing. You know, it kind of just makes me feel a bit sad that there was so much performative action in that area. The truth is, though, there isn't a person that I meet, and I'm, you know, I'm very politically connected across the spectrum in the UK, in Europe, in the US, there isn't a person I meet who privately won't say how important it is to continue that agenda. I don't meet anybody who doesn't believe in climate change and the action we need to take. And so there's a piece for me about how do we as leaders in our own right, and then the access we have to very senior leaders in business and politics and society, how do we give them the confidence?

14:29to make that case. Now, I think part of the problem is we've ended up partly social media, partly polarization of politics. We've ended up in this position where you're either pro-environmental change and progressiveness or you're anti-climate change. You're either someone who wants to see a diversification of the boardroom and more diverse voices around every business table or that's woke and it's, you know, extremist. There is a, most people are still in the middle ground and, you know, the centre and the middle ground is not a popular, again, it's out of fashion. But the majority of people are there.

15:10How do we build their confidence?

15:11Michael Hayman:Well, also language matters, right? Because, you know, in a US context, if you use green, it's politically loaded. If you use clean, it's a completely different phrase in terms of actually what it suggests. Something, though, just to go back on, that you said there, which I think is at the heart of perhaps what the challenge is now, is that when you say that I've not met a person that disagrees with me, well, a lot of people will say, well, actually, this is the challenge that leaders have, is that they reinforce it off each other. How do you get lenses elsewhere in terms of, and actually, how do you reach out beyond the consensus to actually win the case, win hearts and minds, actually make it real?

15:52But I think, look, when I say they don't disagree with me, they might disagree with me on what we should do about it. So what I'm saying is, I think in professional and political life, and actually just the people I know in my own personal life, there aren't that many hardcore climate deniers.

16:12Michael Hayman:Right. Right. And now there may be really varying views on how we should tackle climate change and the investment we should put in it. and being able to create environments that that debate can happen without it being polarised, without it being personal. Because the big issues of the day, we can't seem to have a sensible conversation. We don't want to concede ground. Yeah, but I suppose the issue is it's somewhere in the middle, isn't it? Always. So it's not about denying climate as much as, well, actually, would I rather address this issue as opposed to being wealthy or poor or whatever in terms of the decisions on the table.

16:50And that's the complexity. I think often we want to narrow down into the most simplest format. That's the complexity because the fact is, as I believe it and as all the data I've read on it, if we don't tackle climate change, all the other things that are important to us, healthcare systems, you know, the economy, etc., it's going to be fundamentally upended, right? So they're all connected.

17:13Michael Hayman:But it's interesting, isn't it? because I think what you've got your finger on is exactly the point, right, which is that the easier stories are also easier to land. So if you say things like leaders are out of touch, people go, yeah, leaders are out of touch. But I suppose the issue is that are they or are there other factors at play here in terms of their ability to land their message and make their case? Well, and I think you can definitely initiate in different walks of life, right? I think if you look at politics, I think there does have to be a reckoning in Western democracies. Because if you look at the career paths of politicians today, so many of them are career politicians.

17:56And I'm not saying that makes them bad politicians, but the majority have kind of been in student politics and then gone on to be an advisor.

18:05Michael Hayman:So they're lacking vital experiences. What I think is real world experience. But I also look at the other side of the coin. if you're someone who has built a career in the public sector or in business successfully, why would you choose politics? Not even because it's not paid as well as many of those other professions. I think that's a factor in it. I think the fact we can't have a sensible conversation about MPs' pay is ridiculous. I think it's the same in many Western democracies. There's so many different ways you can take this interview. I know. But more importantly, to your point earlier, like the absolute disillusionment with politicians, the belief, and again, the majority of people that I meet believe that politicians are in it for themselves, that they're not there to serve society.

18:51Michael Hayman:A lot of people in business feel that, of course, is that a lot of people in business will put the same charge to political leaders as maybe employees and actually political leaders themselves. So in terms of this kind of, it feels like there's a lack of connectivity, a lack of mutual respect a lack of potentially of understanding to your point about optimism right I don't life is really short and I don't know how you can go through life being pessimistic and cynical about everyone and everything that's happening in the world and look there are institutions and infrastructures that were created hundreds or tens of hundreds of years ago that are essentially like broken and should be fixed fine but people humanity I still believe the majority of people that I meet on any given day are good.

19:42They want good things for themselves or families and for other people in society. And so unless we can break this cycle of cynicism that everyone's out for themselves and greedy.

19:53Michael Hayman:I think you're right because I think a lot about, you know, if you think about creation, if you think about, you know, new businesses, if you think about, you know, all of these things is that they are all a process of positivity, you know, sometimes unreasonable positivity. but that's what gives you the stretch. It gives you the ambition to actually go for something. A hundred percent. And I also believe there's enough room in this world for everyone to thrive. You know, it doesn't have to be at the expense of someone else, of another business. You know, I'm a big fan of like all ships rise together.

20:31And so creating that camaraderie, that supportive nature, wishing like your competitors well. Yeah. You know, because I think, you look at industries that are thriving, it's because the majority of the firms in them are thriving, right?

20:45Michael Hayman:And it's interesting when you talk about that idea about the ships rising, you know, I suppose that's because the tide rises with it. And of course, a lot of that tide is usually about growth. It's about economic progress. And of course, we're living in a part of the world in the UK and in Northern Europe where actually growth eludes it. And I suppose in terms of how that environment changes, how that positivity exudes, there is a role for the communicator because belief matters, right? Yeah. And to your point about simplicity earlier, it's so much easier to divide people. It's easy to create, you know, those, you're that side, it's your fault that I'm not succeeding, right?