#43: Adrian Ang: What I Built Almost Cost Me Who I Am

0:00Rachel Lim: Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of Who We Are. Today's conversation is a very special one, not just because of who my guest is, but because of our story. Adrian Ang, or as many of you might know him better as Xiaoming from ESGAC, is someone I've actually known from school since junior college. But over the past few years, our paths reconnected in a deeper, more personal way. As founders, we began to share real conversations about the weight of building something bigger than ourselves, the questions of identity that quietly haunt us when the world only sees our public persona, and the quiet courage it takes to evolve.

0:42Rachel Lim: You may know Adrian as the comedic genius behind the sunglasses, but today, I invite you to meet the man behind the humour. The father, the husband, the deep thinker, the introvert, the creative, the feeler. This episode isn't just about SGAC. It's about success, identity, love, loss, and legacy. And I truly believe that we're going to walk away from this one not only inspired but deeply moved. So welcome, Adrian! Thank you for having me here. So exciting. Finally! This feels like one of our usual conversations that we usually have, just that there's like full-on lights and cameras. Yeah, yeah.

1:23So excited to be here. I've watched so much of your podcast, your content. I've been so inspired. So it's really an honour for me to be here to give my two cents worth and share a little bit about my journey and experience.

1:36Rachel Lim: Yeah, you know, I'm so excited to have you, Adrian, because so many times when we have our one-on-one conversations over meals, I always think to myself, if only the world can hear what you're talking about or what you're sharing, or even the internal struggles that we wrestle with. And I think that's so beautiful for you to be able to come out to share a part of yourself. But before we dive into that, how have you been? How are you? And what's a life in you beneath the surface? Wow, life has been amazing. I mean, my daughter came into the world three months ago. So my dad of two. That's been massively exciting to just go back to the newborn stage.

2:22And I realized that, you know, there's different kinds of smiles when it comes to kids. With Zachary now, he's almost like three, right? So everything is a little bit transactional. You give him something, he's happy, therefore he smiles. But when he's a newborn, it's like a baby.

2:35Rachel Lim: So pure. So pure, just happy to see you, you know. So really different kinds of joy being a father of two. So that's been what has been occupying me a lot this couple of months. It's so beautiful watching you evolve in our journeys from school days in that sense, to also then you being a founder and then now having a family of your own. If your life were a documentary, what would the title of this chapter be and why? This chapter, this particular... Yeah, the chapter that you're living now. Oh, wow. Yeah. I'll call it like diving into the deep. I feel like, you know, if I would use the analogy of riding a wave, I've always been like just on the surface, riding the high of the wave, surfing it down.

3:24It's been, you know, it's been nice. It's been exciting. A little bit of tumble here and there. But I've really not dived that deep into myself until this like one year. So it's still the sea that I love. just you know aside from being on the surface now i just kind of go a little bit deeper to look at what's exactly on the seabed right what actually actually am i made of at this kind of current point in my life so that's been yeah exciting actually like having a different point of view

3:51Rachel Lim: and perspective even though you're like you said like on this in the same spot ish right how does that feel um honestly i think it has been pretty intense yeah because i've you know enjoyed my time on the on the surface through the ups and downs and i never really felt like i need to dive that deep into my own world i kind of feel like maybe through the years growing up you know as a kid or even as an adult i thought i knew myself i thought i knew myself especially through the successes is like, oh, it's great. You know, this is who I am. It's not until I really went through, you know, a more difficult phase in my life that I realized that I actually don't know who I am.

4:34Maybe I know who I'm not, but I don't actually know who I am. And that really motivated me to dive a little bit deeper because I can see how without that clear sense of identity, I'm just kind of being put in all sorts of different directions. Yeah.

4:49Rachel Lim: Yeah. I would love to dive deeper into that later. But I'm so curious also, what were you like as a child? And what part of that child still lives in you today? Wow. I feel like I'm very free-spirited as a child. If I can do things my own way, I like to do whatever I want in my own time. So many people might not know, I actually spent a good part of my childhood in Malaysia because my dad is from Malaysia. So every school holiday, I always go back to Malaysia. And it's the kampung. It's really kampung. So I'm one of the, I guess, the few. Which part of Malaysia? Johor, Johor. So still not that far.

5:32So I feel like one of the few Singaporeans that can enjoy kampung life in our age group. Usually it's our parents' age group. So back in the kampung, there's really nothing, right? It's just a lot of space to run around, you know. I dig the soil for earthworm, use the earthworm to catch a fish, use plastic bag to make kites, to fly the kite. So I really, really enjoyed that, you know, that freedom, that ability to do whatever I want and just, you know, indulge in my own happiness and passion. So I feel like that is still, yeah, a big part of that, that free-spiritedness still lives in me. Or I do yearn for myself to be free-spirited like that as much as I can in my adulthood.

6:11And I feel like that is also where a lot of the struggles do come in a little bit. As life's responsibility starts weighing on me. And that is also really the reason why I started on this entrepreneurship journey. Because I don't want to just do what other people do. I don't want to do what people tell me to do. I want to do things that I want to do. Yeah, and that has been a big part of why, even though I tried to do a little bit of a corporate job before I started my business, I was like, ah, no, I cannot. I'm just dying inside.

6:43Rachel Lim: Well, I'm glad that, you know, you pursued that still small voice inside of you that pulled you towards a different direction. How did the persona Xiaoming come about and how do you navigate being Adrian and Xiaoming? Wow. I mean, to be honest, there was not a lot of intention behind this character. How many years ago was this really? Maybe 10 years. It was about 10 years. I mean, when SGAC started, we were just doing memes. So basically just images that we took from the internet that is funny and we just left some funny caption over it. I remember that. Yeah. Good old times. Yeah, you were in university?

7:20Rachel Lim: Yeah, I was in SMU. And, you know, memes was starting to become a thing back then. I was like, hey, you know, why not create a Singapore version of it? I always tell people, I cannot solve your problems, but if I can make you laugh while you're getting stuck on a train breakdown, I will have done my job. Yeah. So that was really fun in the early years when we were creating just this funny memes just to entertain people. And somehow people like my kind of humor. I remember back when I was in school, the kind of lame jokes that I cracked, all the girls in the house were like, what's wrong with you?

7:49Rachel Lim: I'm glad you stayed true to who you are. Yeah, yeah. So I'm thankful for Singaporeans who appreciated my weird sense of humor. Not weird, but yeah. So that was how it started. So that's how it started. And I think when Facebook started introducing like a video feature, sometime in 2015, we thought to ourselves, hey, maybe let's start creating some videos as well. And there was just a few of us back then. And they were like, we were like, oh, who wants to be on video? nobody else wanted to and I was like oh okay sure I'll do it then and back then SGAC was really cheeky like really really cheeky I mean we are very family friendly now back then we were like really cheeky and I wanted to you know if I were to appear on screen I wanted to find a way to somehow also protect my own like identity so I was like okay let me give myself like a fictional name what's one name that all Singaporeans would know it's like hey Chinese composition we always have this Xiaoming character Literally the Zhaosan.

8:45Rachel Lim: Xiaoming He Xiaoli. I said, okay, let's go with this name. But how can I, you know, turn up in a way that people wouldn't be able to spot me on the street easily? I said, okay, what if I wear a pair of sunglasses? Yeah, so that was how the character was accidentally developed in the early days. Yeah. In the first couple of years, I just kind of touched on the side of me, which is very extreme, which is the very lame side likes to play pranks and just put it into this like character and people kind of resonated or find it really really entertaining and it took off and it took off yeah and at what point did you realise that or was there a point that it got to that you realised that wow this is bigger than me and while it's exciting was it also scary?

9:36yeah actually you know with this with this character i kind of have stuck through with it for quite a number of years i'll say a good eight to nine years i think it was not until maybe last year yeah or slightly before that that i kind of was starting to struggle with it like a little bit i feel like it has maybe grown a little bit bigger than who i am it has maybe started to overshadow who i really am I started to feel like you know without this character Adrian is actually nothing there was a lot of negative self-talk that was going into my head I remember going into like conferences or meetings that you know if I'm not there as my character if I don't wear a pair of shades if I'm not ready with a joke people will not care about who who I am or what I wanted to say so there was a little bit of like an identity crisis that I felt like I lost a big part of Adrian as I started to build this Xiaoming character.

10:33And don't get me wrong, I feel like this Xiaoming character has also served me very, very well. I think the popularity of it helps me as an introvert. Whenever I go into a meeting room and I talk to strangers, they'll be like, oh, I know, I love what you did. I love this character that you have. And that allowed me to connect with people a lot more naturally. If given Adrian, it would be such a tough conversation. I'd be like,

10:56Rachel Lim: oh, so what do you do? Ah, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Are you sure? So this Xiaoming character has really helped me break out of my introverted shell a little bit. Just because it's easier and more natural for me to strike a conversation with people. And for people to strike a conversation with me as well. Yeah, but it comes with a price. It comes with a price. And I realized that I was struggling quite a bit with it in the past couple of years. Was there a particular turning point incident that made you decide that, hey, you know what? I think I'm going to not shed this persona, but I'm going to also allow Adrian to come out more.

11:36So I started my social media account with this character, with this Xiaoming character.

11:41Rachel Lim: You mean even the handle, right? Yeah, yeah. So it was like SGAG like Xiaoming. So it was really focused on just jokes and pranks that I do with everybody that's like kind of around me. And when I had Zachary, that was when I was like, okay, let me share a little bit more about my personal life. And if you scroll back far enough, you'll realize that in the early years of Zachary growing up, I was still wearing my shades whenever I was filming content with him. Just because it was, I mean, I didn't really think too much about it. I just felt like, yeah, it just makes sense for me whenever I turn up on screen to wear this sunglass.

12:16So it's not until Zachary was maybe one, one and a half years old, right? It was just another typical day. that was a cute moment I wanted to capture. So I instinctively grabbed my phone, I took my sunglass, I put it on. And I don't know for what reason, Zachary just reached out to my sunglass and was like, daddy, no, don't wear. And I was like, wow. I never really thought about it. But at that moment, it kind of, it kind of hit me really, really hard. Like, oh yeah, I'm actually turning up as Zachary's father, which is Adrian. I'm not turning up as, you know, my character. Xiaoming, why am I wearing shades?

12:55Why is there a need to wear this pair of shades of mine? So that got me late into the night thinking, yeah, actually, who am I at this point in my life? How am I showing up for my family? How am I showing up online? What am I telling my community whenever I wear a pair of sunglasses? It's something that I never really thought about. But at that moment, a lot of these questions started popping to my head and I didn't have the answer for a lot of these questions because it really goes back to who am I without this pair of like sunglasses?

13:29Rachel Lim: Yeah. And how did you work through all of that? I imagine there must be so much because like you said, I think this persona and therefore the sunglasses has also served you and opened up so many opportunities for you. Yet at the same time, there is this longing within you or yearning to also express, you know, the authenticity of Adrian and who you are. So how do you wrestle or reconcile with these thoughts, these conflicting thoughts? Wow. I mean, it is a big struggle. I think the easy, I guess the easy thing to do is I'm just going to remove my sunglass. But I think it's beyond that maybe physical gesture of just removing that sunglass.

14:11It goes back to who am I like authentically? What does it really mean? and I didn't have the answer for that. I think that's why I started, you know, talking to people like yourself, talking to people like Crystal, people who are a little bit more into this mindfulness, mental health, like kind of space to find out who exactly I am. What kind of questions should I be asking myself? Because especially as a man growing up in like an Asian society, I don't look that deep to myself, into myself. I just kind of go with the flow and then wherever life takes me and I just kind of flow along with it. Never really asked myself a lot of these deep questions.

14:53And when I started asking myself some of these deep questions, I don't know the answers. I don't know how to find them. I think there are a lot of maybe materials like kind of online, but to put it together in a structured manner, right, to put it together into something that will really help me from a step-by-step basis, it's so difficult to force myself to sit down to go through an exercise like that. I just can't. I just can't bring myself to do it. And that was why, you know, I decided to find out a little bit more about what is in it out there that can actually guide me through this entire process.

15:31And that's how I stumbled upon, yeah, what I've shared recently about the Hoffman process.

15:36Rachel Lim: Yes. I mean, it's beautiful, Adrian. I think from my point of view, also watching you confront the discomfort and the difficulty and the struggles because I imagine it's easy for anyone to just shove all those thoughts aside of, you know, who am I really beyond the sunglasses, beyond this persona? Because this persona has also served you and given you perhaps success and, you know, success at work, success financially, materially. So like it takes a lot of courage to be able to unravel the layers, which actually is a lot more work and I would say sometimes even like a lot of pain, right? What is one fear that still quietly lives, that still quietly lives in the background of your life, especially, you know, while you're going through this transition of discovering and finding out more about yourself?

16:34I would say is the fear of not having an impact. Yeah, because I don't know. I don't know exactly why as well, but I just kind of want to do things in my life that is impactful. And the definition I realized has changed a lot over the years. And I think that is also the reason why I also struggle in different phases. Because as we grow up, right, through the different phases, whether is it, you know, me coming out of uni, starting a business, starting a family, running a big team now, now I have a kid. I realized through all these different phases in life, the kind of impact I want to create changes.

17:16And that is something that I don't actively in the past try to find out exactly in this phase in my life, what serves me? What does it look like? What serves me? What is, what do I prioritize? And from there, then what should I then be working on? What kind of shifts do I need to make? Yeah. Because in the past, I really just kind of just let it flow, right? wherever life takes me, I'll just kind of go along with it. It was not until I struggled a little bit that I then would want to think back a little bit of where I am right now and what changes do I need to make. And I feel like that's something that I would love to still actively do as I move into different phases of my life.

17:56Rachel Lim: Has this desire to want to consistently make an impact been around since your growing up years? And how did it look like in the different seasons of your life? Oh, wow. Yeah, I think maybe growing up, it was a lot of, I wanted to maybe make my parents proud. Yeah. You know, that validation from them was something that I seek for. And academically, I can't. I'm not a good student. I mean, I'm not bad, but I'm just not good enough. you know, maybe good progress award because good progress award is like you must be bad first and then you'll be good. I feel like that is a little bit more achievable.

18:40That's a hack right there. But if you're going to be the top 1%, that's...

18:43Rachel Lim: Set the bar low. Set the bar low. You know, first term, do badly and after that you do well. The best tip for an agent. Inspirational for a student. Yeah, so there was a lot of that. So because I can't do that academically, I find myself wanting to do it through other means. So I do it through the CCA that I was involved in, which was sailing. to my primary school and secondary school year. I put a lot of pressure on myself to perform. And you did well. And yeah, I mean, did well for my own standards. No, I mean, even principals of junior college were like trying to convince you to join the junior college.

19:17Rachel Lim: But that was how it was. So making impact and finding your own playground, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. And then how did that look like, you know, after JC years? So I think, you know, after that was really then a big journey, because I think maybe a lot of Singaporean students when we were younger, we also don't know what we want to do. I mean, I really had no clear idea growing up what I wanted to do. When I was in sailing, maybe I wanted to be like a sailing instructor. But then I realized, oh, I know it's not that easy to make sports, a career here in Singapore. And there are a lot of, I guess, very typical career path that, you know, Singaporeans are always encouraged to pursue.

19:59But that was also something that I wasn't very interested in. So I spent a lot of my maybe JC years and university years just diving into many different things just to find out what I like, what I don't like. You know, I did a bit of relief teaching. I gave out like, you know, flyers. I worked in a shop. I tried internship at like a marketing agency. So I really dived myself into many different things. I did like a little bit like modeling.

20:24Rachel Lim: Whoa! My brother could dig up those photos. So I really put myself in a lot of different kinds of situations just to find out, yeah, where exactly do I feel like I create impact and it gives me satisfaction. There was a lot of no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Until, yeah, university when I started, decided to, you know, just dive into a little bit of entrepreneurship. And that was where, oh, I was like, hey, it gives me a lot of satisfaction. I feel like I actually can do pretty well in that. So before SGAC and Headmill, I actually started a t-shirt printing business as well. Just printing t-shirts for, you know, classes, clubs, companies.

21:03And I find a lot of joy in that, in people wearing my shirt and being very happy about it. And I like the freedom of time. I like the freedom to be able to do what I feel like is right. And that kind of impact, that kind of satisfaction it gave me. really shape a little bit of like how I think about where I want my career, what I want to do for a living. And that's where eventually when I founded SGAG, I like the entrepreneurship part. But at the same time, I also like that there's a very nice meaning in being able to make people laugh.

21:39Rachel Lim: Yeah. Because we will get like messages that, oh, you know, I was having a rough day and this meme made me laugh. I mean, it's not something life-changing, but just being able to make like small difference in people's lives. It's like a pocket of sunshine, right? Yeah, I feel like that's such a meaningful thing to do. And I think that motivated me in the very, very early years to think hard about beyond it, beyond doing this as just a for fun kind of thing. How can I really make it into a career so that it's actually sustainable? How can I maybe turn it into a business so that I can bring more like-minded people?

22:13Because comedy, you know, in a space like Singapore, especially in the early years, but it's very hard to make a living unless you are the Kumar or Mark Lee or Jack Neal of the industry. I mean, times have changed obviously over the past 10 to 15 years but in the early years, really, it was so hard.

22:30Rachel Lim: And yet no examples, literally, to go, oh, you had to come out to chart your own path in that sense. For me to be able to witness your journey, from something that started with a creativity and then leaning into your gifts, your talent and building that out, scaling that throughout the last 10 years. And really, you know, putting Singapore on the map of what you're doing. What has success cost you, Adrian, that people may never see? Wow. This is like tunnels. It has cost me everything.

23:09Wow. I mean, there is, I mean, without being cliche, there's really a lot of blood, sweat and the tears. I think entrepreneurship, it is, to be honest, a very lonely journey. It is very, very lonely because there's a lot of struggles that I had to go through that it's very hard to talk to people about it. Even the closest ones like my wife. Because I think when there were a lot of struggles that I was experiencing at work, to me I was like let's just keep it at work let me not bring it home because if it's also not a problem that can be solved at home and since you know I'm really back home it's a safe space let's just keep it like happy but I feel like I was also burying a lot of emotions that I was feeling at work and when I say it has cost me a lot it's also in the sense that entrepreneurship because of how fast we are, we have grown as well over the past 10 years.

24:14It requires me to grow and change a lot every single year. And there's almost no time for me to kind of really look at myself and check in on myself and ask myself who I am. How have I changed? Is this change something that I want to? Or is this change something that was required of me? and that eventually really led me to, you know, feeling very lost, right? Like I'm doing a lot, but I'm also feeling very empty at the same time. It has led me to question a little bit of who am I exactly and what is in it for me in this phase of my life, in this phase of the business that I've built. It's so hard to talk about it.

25:03It's so hard to talk about it because as leaders, you know, we need to show up, you know, having, you know, really being present, really having all the answers to all the solutions, being strong for the team in times of need. Yeah, so to show like vulnerability, it is extremely challenging. It's something that I need to think twice, four times, five times as whether, you know, is this something that will help the team or will it confuse the team even more, right? seeing their leader feeling lost, feeling like they're not the strongest version of themselves. So there was a lot of this conflicting thoughts in my head on what I think I needed to do and also what I was feeling deep inside of me.

25:49Yeah, so it has, I would say, been a challenging journey.

25:55Rachel Lim: And at which point did it, would you say that it accumulated to a point where it broke you?

26:08So for me, I am a very people person. Whoever I work with, especially in the close ones, I really invest a lot of my heart, my trust. I know it's not very healthy. I mean, as leaders, you know, if you read books and listen to podcasts, We need to draw like healthy boundaries. But I think deep inside of me, this is like who I am and how I work. I really invest in a lot. Invest a lot in people. I trust a lot in them. I almost like love them. So when, I mean, I think last year or late the year before, when a couple of these close ones that I have at work or kind of decided to leave in a very, very short amount of time, it hit me really, really hard.

26:56Yeah. there was just a lot of questions like in my head as a leader as a person like have i done enough for them right is it something that i've done wrongly is it because like i'm not a good leader and that's why they are leaving and you know inside of me obviously i know right people leave for different reasons it might be because of me but because the company but maybe because it's a new phase in their lives that you know they want to pursue like something else that the company cannot like kind of give them it's not personal but i mean it's exactly that kind of things that i know that that is the right way to think but deep down inside me i still can't help feeling hurt feeling disappointed feeling confused by myself and everything that was happening happening like around me and it all happened in a very very short span of time and and that that confused state that the state that i was in was starting to affect how i turn up even at home right um i was just not present at home i was just maybe yeah using my my family as a little bit of an escape my time that i spent with zachary that little moments of joy right as a little bit of escape not not really being in the moment i was like depending on them to give me that happiness And when I don't get it, I feel even more upset.

28:15I feel angry. And I realized that, you know, one night of a glass of whiskey turned into two nights, three nights. I was, you know, having a glass of whiskey every other night. And it's, I mean, to be honest, it's not like I was trying to get drunk, but I was just, yeah, using it as a little bit of an escape, just to kind of numb my heart and my brain a little bit. and when I look at how it has affected my my wife right the the one the one person that I love the most um that that that that was the part that it really um broke me I feel like I need I need to do something like about this because if I don't yeah try to look at what exactly is is wrong right and try to fix this right this is gonna have a lot of a lot more impact things can get a lot worse i don't want to lose and hurt the people around me the ones that i love even more and that was when i started yeah really feeling like i needed to do something a little bit more than just telling myself that i can do it right i feel like one of the toxic uh trait or toxic phrase that I always tell myself, is what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

29:38We always tell ourselves that. And it honestly served me very well, growing up. And it did indeed make me a lot stronger. But there came a moment in time where I just feel like I cannot grow any stronger anymore. This is just the maximum. In fact, I'm just getting weaker and weaker, as some of these things keep hitting me. and now on hindsight, I really realized that what didn't kill me yesterday might actually kill me tomorrow if I don't exactly know what was killing me. It doesn't just magically, it didn't kill you, therefore it makes you stronger. Yeah, so that was really a very dark period, I feel, in my life where everything I felt was crumbling that I don't know what I needed to do to get myself out of that ditch.

30:30Rachel Lim: how did it affect you say it affected your wife how did it affect her I mean I think she went she tried to wear like different hats right she's a consultant right so naturally she tried to try to solve a lot of this problems for me which I dissect this problem yeah I think the more she tried to do it the more I'm just like I'm just gonna close up I'm gonna yeah close up I'm gonna withdraw like myself and the things that, you know, as a wife, she's not also my therapist, right? And a lot of these things that she tried to do to get me to share, I also didn't feel like I wanted to burden her with a lot of these things that I'm experiencing because she also, you know, has her life as a daughter, as a mom, right?

31:25Yeah, as an employee to lead. I don't think it is fair for me to get her to solve what I was going through like emotionally. And I can see that it was starting to affect her because when I withdraw from her, right, I can see the hurt in her eyes. And she didn't need to say like a word, but I can see from her eyes that her heart was like breaking whenever I just kind of withdraw and just push her away. and that that yeah that hit me really hard to see that in her eyes yeah yeah could you walk us

32:00Rachel Lim: through what was it like during those days where you said it was the darkest period of your life where what was it like when you got home what did your day look like and what was it like when the sun rose again where you had to show up at work?

32:19Yeah, it's yeah, so it's really like with a lot of things that I was going through you know, at work. The moment I come home, I need to show up for my boy, right? So that's where I just kind of push it away and just try to do as much as I possibly can, you know, be the most present and happiest father I can be. put him to bed, sing him his songs, play with him. But I think it's really the moment where I step out of his room, I pour myself a glass of whiskey, and then the emotions start flooding in. And I'll just be sitting in my living room on the sofa, just staring into blank space. And Sinley would come out, look at me, and try to talk to me.

33:09and I would just be like, I don't want to talk. You know, just leave me alone. Just let me lie over here. Like, I'm okay. Just leave me alone, right? And she'll sit there with me and once in a while, she'll, you know, say something that, yeah, really hits the nail, right in the heart. And I think that's where, you know, many times I'll tell her that, you know, I don't think I can do this anymore. I don't know, like, what to do. I don't know who can help me. I just feel so helpless. And she will try her best to kind of be there for me, which I really, really appreciate just being silently there.

33:59But I also felt like I needed something a little bit more to piece together the broken parts. You know, what were the sharp edges, you know, that was hurting me. And how do I even put myself back together again? And because I don't know how to, you know, comes midnight, I'll be so tired, you know, just lie down in my bed, wake up the next morning again, you know, it's just, I have to switch on again, right? There's no time for emotions or whatsoever.

34:27Rachel Lim: You know, I got to settle the kids, go to work, get everything going again. Yeah. So it's just this cycle of... Repeats itself. It just repeats itself. Yeah. just immediately switching on because life requires to do what you need to do. It's not going to stop just because you're feeling down. That eventually it starts accumulating. Eventually it starts, yeah, every day it gets a little bit harder and harder and harder until it almost feels like I don't want to get out of bed sometimes. And the truth is that what I realized on hindsight is that a lot of the problems that I was facing was just beyond this superficial problem.

35:01It's not just about, you know, why is this employee leaving and what did I do wrong? or what could the company have done. It's just symptoms of something that's a little bit more deep-rooted. And when I eventually talked to people who can help me connect these dots properly, I realized that, yeah, it's all deep-rooted into some of these negative patterns that I have developed through myself growing up. And it's now just showing up in different ways in my adulthood. And I think that is why I decided when I talk to people like yourself, when I hear you speak, I hear how crystals speak. I talk to people a little bit more in this mental health and mindfulness space, listening to Dr.

35:44Gabor Mate talk about, you know, how childhood shapes the wounds and how it's actually real. You know, it is not just a myth, right? That it is okay to, you know, know that this thing has happened and this has affected you. That I started having a little bit more confidence in wanting to connect these thoughts. Maybe in the past, I was just like, yeah, this has passed, right? You know, it's done and dusted. I am who I am now. It has shaped me for whatever it is. And I don't want to go and touch all these things. But I think having a glimpse that, hey, actually you can, it is actually linked. There's actually safe environment, but that you can actually help connect these dots again.

36:24This is really part of the real healing journey that you can go through that will, you know, help you find yourself again. That was when I, And that's when it gave me a lot more courage and confidence, right? To do something about this, right? To dive a little bit deeper into this space. Yeah. And not just put a plaster onto the wood. There's like the meme, right? The fish tank, I mean, the water tank is breaking. Just put the plaster, pop, on it. Yeah. And there's only so many that you can put before the whole tank will crack.

36:56Rachel Lim: Yes. And, you know, going back to the season that you were going through, was there a time where you really just felt like i want to walk away from it all and and and and how did you navigate that well uh i mean i maybe i can't say for all entrepreneurs but i mean i think for me there's been many many different times yeah to this entire journey where i felt like I wanted to walk away because I just felt like it was just costing me so much like is this is this really worth it is it really worth all the pain that what would you say that it cost you the most I think it has cost me

37:46my identity of self, I would say. Yeah. Because, again, you know, starting a business to growing it to become, you know, a company that is across six different countries with two, three hundred staff. It's not something that, honestly, I plan for. My role from, right from the start to where it is now, it has changed, like, so much that I don't know who, I don't know who I am. and through the wins, I tried to do a little bit more of what gave me that high and through the lows, I tried to change who I am just so that I don't experience some of these lows. And I feel like in that, I just then grew a part of myself that maybe isn't who I am anymore.

38:34I just wanted to become the best leader but the best leader doesn't necessarily mean it's Adrian. It is Steve Jobs, right? whatsoever but it's not it's not adrian i just did what was required of my role right in in my company and i think that that has been the most um yeah yeah challenging moment for me yeah

38:58Rachel Lim: and coming out you know from a little bit out of that path and out of that darkness do you still find yourself struggling in that sense where you know you get pulled back into those dark days and what helps you renew your mind or reframe what you're going through because it's not like a magic pill where you know you take and immediately all our troubles and worries go away in fact it's actually an ongoing process that it's kind of like i feel to me it's like a demon that i constantly have to confront and wrestle with so i mean coming out from the retreat that i went for one of the things that they share with us is you know in the first three months don't do anything drastic in your life right just go back into your normal life and this with this renewed sense of self with these new tools and new knowledge about yourself that you now know right make these little changes and see how does that you know change the way that you think and how people around you react yeah because like what you say it's not a magic pill like you know you go for something like that and you come back oh i'm a different person now yeah Because one of the things they said is you need to know that, yes, you have changed, but the world around you hasn't changed.

40:14Yeah, the world around you hasn't changed at all. When you go back into your life, when you go back into your work, everybody around you would have been the same. And all the things that have triggered you into your negative thoughts, your negative emotions are still all going to come up. And so that's one of the things that I really tried to tell myself coming back from the Hoffman process. It's like, okay, you know, let's be patient. Let's take it all one step at a time. Try to integrate whatever I've learned into my life and see how does that change. And to be honest, I find myself spiraling right down again.

40:50Because, yeah, even though I know that this is how I'm wired, and now I know that I need to rewire myself, but I've been living my life like that for the past 37 years. It's not going to just suddenly… It's a muscle memory.

41:03Rachel Lim: Yeah, it's muscle memory. I'm not going to suddenly, you know, react instinctively in a different way. It takes a lot of, you know, deliberate, intentional rewriting, telling, okay, you know, if this thing happened, hey, yeah, I might have went to my negative pattern today. But now at least I can spot it. I know that, oh, I went to my negative pattern. In the past, I would have not known. And now I know that, oh, with this negative pattern, why? Why did I go into this negative pattern? So that's the other part. And then now I know how, okay, the next time something like that happens, but I need to tell myself that this is what I should do.

41:36And after a while, you know, repeatedly doing that, you know, it slowly then become a little bit of a muscle memory such that the next time, instinctively, you will react and show up in a slightly different way. So that's one of the things that I've realized coming back from the retreat itself and how then I slowly started reshaping how I turned up in my life, both at work and at home. I really did not do anything drastic for the first two to six months. After which, I was just like, okay, you know, yeah, I think the way that I perceive life, the way that I deal with things that's being thrown at me in a more positive, kind of like in a more connected way, I feel a lot better.

42:21I feel a lot more at peace. I feel a lot more fulfilled. But I was like, hey, there's still something that is missing. Yeah, I don't feel like I'm completely like in the zone where, you know, when I get into a conversation, you know, at work, I'm completely alive. I'm super energetic. It's been better, but I'm not at like, you know, what you call or what Joyce called the zone of like genius. I feel like I was still missing that. And that really then got me thinking, okay, you know, what exactly is my zone of genius? What gets me excited? What conversation have I been in in the last six months?

42:58Right, whether it's coffee chats or just random chats with people where I come alive. And how does that look like?

43:03Rachel Lim: What can I, how can I do a little bit more of that? Yeah, I think that is where some of the coffee chats with you have really like enlightened me. I was like, oh, if I just do a little bit more of that, don't think too far, just do a little bit more. How would that look like? And slowly that 1 % starts to become like, you know, 3%, 5%, 10%. And I was like, oh, now how can I really do something that is big and impactful and meaningful? So even, you know, with me sharing about my Hoffman process, it was something that I've wanted to do. But I was like, oh, it's so intimidating to share about something so intense.

43:34Like, will people care? Right? And it's something that's so personal. Am I, like, ready? So that's why I kind of gave myself a little bit of time, you know, to just come back, just put into practice, talk to people through casual coffee conversations, get a little bit of feedback in terms of, you know, what is relevant to them. Before, you know, finding a setting and time that I feel ready to talk about. And now, you know, I'm sitting together with you to share a little bit more about that. It's amazing. So this, I would say, a lot of these little and big changes that has slowly been reshaped.

44:06Rachel Lim: Yeah. Ever since I dive a little bit deeper into myself and some of these things that I've been doing. How do you think that doing the inner work has affected your outer voice? And how do you think that doing the inner work has also affected the way you experience your work today? I feel like doing having done all the different work right through the past year I mean I don't want to also say that it's been extensive or like extremely intensive I feel like I've been a little bit more confident with my voice in the past you know maybe I feel like I need to be funny in order for people to care about what I want to say and now you know i'm just really i'll say more self-assured in what i want to say right it's not to please anybody it's not performative it's not performative it's not to get the views it's not to get the laughs i just kind of feel like this is something that i want to share and if there's positive feedback from the community that's great but it's just really for me right for this the inner child in me you know to want to share this part of my story journey you know skid whatsoever it's just because i want to do it and that that is enough and i feel like there's been the massive change and i think that is also the reason why i've started to share a lot more than just all this yeah funny things that i've i've been doing i mean it's still a part of me yeah yeah it's still a part of my dna but now i want to talk a little bit more about parenthood you know sharing tips and tricks, sharing a little bit of a struggle, sharing about my journey when it comes to this mindfulness journey that I've been embarking on.

45:54And it's not to impress anybody. It's not to make anybody laugh. It's just because I feel like it's something meaningful that I want to share. And I get encouraged by feedback from the community. I think that is great.

46:08Rachel Lim: And now, I feel like that has been the biggest change. One of my facilitator in Hoffman has told me something that maybe I hasn't been too comfortable because I always feel like I need to talk in a certain way for people to pay attention. When I talk like that, I feel very uncomfortable in the past. I feel like I've always got to talk in the Xiaoming tone. Like, hey guys, like, you know, what's up? You know, I feel like, oh, now because I'm more confident in my voice. I allow myself to speak a little bit more slowly, calmly, and maybe a little bit more authentically. Yeah. And that, I mean, it makes me feel a lot more comfortable in my own skin to hear myself talk like that.

46:58Rachel Lim: Yeah. What is authenticity to you, Adrian? And why is it so important to you? Wow. As cliche as it might sound, I feel like life is too short to be somebody else. Yeah, and when I see people like yourself, I see people like Jen, I see people like Crystal, I see people in the Hoffman process that have been through at the end of the entire process. You know, everybody just showing up as themselves. It's so beautiful. It's really so beautiful. The kind of energy that you get from people just being authentically themselves. They don't even need to do anything for you. just seeing people being comfortable in their own skin in their own light it's so inspiring it just encourages me to want to also do more for myself and in then in turn be able to share that life with everybody else and that is why i feel authenticity is so so it's such a beautiful thing yeah and if more people in the world can just show up as themselves a little bit more yeah I feel like that is how the world will become more beautiful.

48:10It's not just, you know, via a product that is being invented. It's not just another thing that you wear that will make you look beautiful. It's just, it's you being in your own, feeling comfortable in your own skin and just letting that light shine.

48:23Rachel Lim: I really, really love that and I really resonate with that, you know, which is also why for me, I named the podcast Who We Are because I think life is also a journey of uncovering and unraveling perhaps the titles or, you know, the identity that have been imposed on us by the world or what the world tells or what society tells us we should be, how we should behave in order to have approval or in order to be accepted. And, you know, I want to ask you also, Adrian, like, what is something that matters to you now that didn't matter before? I think for me, is to be at peace with myself. Yeah. I feel like it's something that I didn't have before.

49:14I feel like in this season of my life, just being at peace with myself, what I do, how I turn up and who I am is so important. To know that, you know, I'm love, I'm loving, I'm lovable. I feel like it's something that is so important. Yeah. So that I don't, you know, go into some of these negative patterns again. I don't go into, you know, seeking validation and love from people around me. I mean, it's not saying that I don't need loved ones around me, but I think more importantly is I love myself. I give the love that I need from myself. I feel like that is something that, yeah, I didn't used to have before and I hold very close to my heart because the truth is that, you know, there are still tough days.

50:02There are still things that don't go right right in my day-to-day life but now i'm able to give that love to myself that assurance that i need that recognition right that the sense of yeah that validation that i needed in the past from somebody else i just kind of give it to myself right now yeah so like the other day i mean i've been trying like ice bath it's really really cold and it's only been a couple of weeks and i remember the first time i went in it was like you know 10 seconds i'm like oh this is way too cold.

50:31Rachel Lim: Yeah. But just a couple of days ago, I was able to sit in there for like five minutes. No. And I was like, so proud of myself. You should be. You should be. So I literally like, wow, well done. You should be so proud of yourself. Yeah. So I mean, it's just really little things like that, that kind of adds up. Yeah. So this is really not like the big things, right? I mean, how many big, you know, highs can you achieve on every day? You don't do that. It's just these little moments where you pay attention to yourself, what you're, you know, your essential self need, what your body needs and just being able to give time and space, right, for yourself to recognize all these different parts of you and give, you know, attention, love, validation that you yourself need.

51:13I feel like that is something that, yeah, is such a, something that I've learned. And what a privilege to be able to learn this lesson

51:22Rachel Lim: at this stage of your life where you still have a long way to go and, you know, live as your fullest self. And on the flip side, you know maybe Adrian what is something that used to matter to you that don't really matter now oh

51:43I think in the past I tried to do big things

51:48Rachel Lim: I feel like the bigger the thing right in a way the more impact I would have the bigger the role that I hold right the bigger impact that I'll have, then, I mean, this is where I realized that it is not true. It's totally not true. Because now I feel like, you know, for me, the kind of impact that I want to have, maybe it's a little bit more about depth than quantity, right? I want to create a more meaningful impact, right? That is a little bit more transformational rather than superficial ones, right? that is just a plaster on the wound. I think that has shaped me in terms of what I prioritize, what kind of conversations that I get with people, even my role at work.

52:42I've decided to shift to one where I can create a little bit more meaningful, deep impact rather than trying to do something that is at scale. I mean, that is something that I leave to my very capable teammates who, you know, it's their zone of genius. They're really good at it. They're passionate about it. I can see the work and the impact that they're doing. It's so amazing. I'm happy to kind of let them do it. I'm happy to, you know, take a step away from some of these things and focus on, yeah, in a little bit of what I feel like, you know, is impact in this season of my life.

53:18Rachel Lim: And I think, you know, as entrepreneurs as well, so many times we also feel the need to achieve, to slay our goals and everything. And how has your definition of success evolved over the years? Wow. I mean, it has definitely changed super a lot. Again, really depending on which phase of the company we are in. If you ask me right now, I mean, I think as a company, I think we still really, really want to grow. I feel like, you know, in this creative space, we are at the, just the start of something that is actually some super exciting. We can do so much more, not just in Singapore, but across the region.

54:07But I think what I realized is the role that I play is very different from where I started back in the day. I think as entrepreneurs, when the team is small, we do everything. Everything kind of is all led by the founder. but now that you know we are a proper company i realized that we have to just kind of lean in to people with different expertise right across different markets who has different strength the founder can't just do everything right i think that is where you know my definition of what is success is very different my personal definition of success right now is okay you know i think my He needs me to be in my zone of genius a little bit more.

54:49And that zone of genius might not necessarily, you know, be a role that, you know, requires me to take care of the entire company, think of the creative strategies across the different markets and, you know, deal with all the different clients. Yeah, I mean, typically as a co-founder, that is what I would have to do. And that's what I've been doing for many years. But that is not exactly my zone of genius. My zone of genius is really being able to, you know, get my hands dirty, creating content, be able to provide real insights from the ground on what is working and what is not. And using my experience to connect with fellow creators because creators are a unique breed of people.

55:26They don't want to listen to all the numbers. They don't want to listen to business talk. They want to be heard. They want to feel like, hey, you know, you're one of us kind of thing. And I feel like that is something that, you know, with my background, I can do with like creators that maybe a lot of my teammates can do. And how can I then shape my role to do a little bit more of that? Yeah, so my definition of success is then being able to create this meaningful connection, helping them, you know, create longevity in their career, create impact. And how can then help them come in to support them in their journey?

56:00So it's very different. And how does that then align with the overall company goal? Because I used to maybe treat the company's goal as my goal. And that was maybe very closely aligned at the start, but it started, you know, maybe deviating a little bit. And then with this renewed sense of self, how can I shape like a role? I can still play an active role. I can still meaningfully contribute.

56:21Rachel Lim: Yeah. Without, I guess, being held ransom. Yeah. By the title that I was holding. Yeah. And I think, you know, Adrian, that is so inspiring because I think it takes a lot of courage to be able to separate ourselves from the company that we have founded, to be able to make a stand, to know also that putting ego aside, I don't need to have the biggest title in the room just because I am the founder or the co-founder or started out that way. And like watching you really live that out has been so inspiring. And, you know, if I could also bring you back to, you know, where there was a dark cloud over, during those dark days, what would you say to yourself now that you have sort of emerged from there?

57:15Rachel Lim: And also, if someone is going through a similar situation where they just can't see past their day and everything just seems dark and they feel helpless, discouraged and lost, what would you say to them and what would you say to Adrian going through that then?

57:46I would say to Adrian a year or a year and a half ago that it is okay to feel what you feel. Because many a times I think when I was going through some of this dark moments yeah when i was having my glass of whiskey it was to drown my emotions i wanted to just kind of shut like that emotion down i don't want to feel you know whatever i was feeling whether it was anger sadness disappointment yeah and in and then you know again it just goes into that spiral of like you know and then i'm i'm so wrong to kind of shut myself and then you know it's just a lot of conflicting thoughts. And I really want to tell myself that it is okay to feel what you feel, right?

58:35You felt sadness, right? Because it was something that really, really hurt you, right? And there's nothing wrong with feeling that sadness. There is nothing wrong with feeling angry about something because it has affected you like a lot. It's something that you don't agree with. And that is really what I would have told myself back then to kind of own my emotions a little bit more, to let it come out that it's actually okay to feel the way that you feel. Because many times I just feel like it was so wrong to feel that way. And you feel guilty.

59:08Rachel Lim: I feel guilty about it. You know, I'm in such a privileged position. It's such a good problem to have. So what are you complaining about? You know, there's a lot of people out there who are, you know, who has it worse than you. So what right has you, have you got to feel some of these things that you are feeling? And that, you know, and if you're feeling some of these things, maybe you're a horrible human being. And that was really just a lot of negative self-talk that I was just doing to myself that eventually got me to the state that I was in. So I mean, to people who are going through a similar state where they feel like they're drowning, there's no way out of this.

59:58I think what really got me out of or what made me take the first step and I think the important first step is to talk to people. That really, once you talk to people, realise that everybody, everybody is struggling. You're not the only one. And I think it's not to make your own problem smaller by talking to people. It's not. It's just knowing that, you know, you're just not alone, that everybody out there is struggling. And you can actually draw strength from, you know, struggling together and draw strength from trying to overcome some of these things together. Or just being able to hear each other out.

1:00:47You feel like maybe that's what you needed to do. You just need to talk to somebody about some of the things that you are going through and finding that little safe space, building that little community, be it your friends, your loved ones. It's so, so important in being able to navigate yourself

1:01:05Rachel Lim: out of some of these difficult times. And I think that is why, you know, I'm really thankful for what you have built with your community because I think what you have done is to really create that safe space that the community to share about some of these things And maybe, you know, one of your podcasts or one of this workshop you're running might not be relevant for me at this season in my life. But, you know, when I reached that point where I needed to hear, then maybe I'll go back to one of these episodes that you have done and it connects with me. And it's so important work that you are doing.

1:01:40And I feel like because of what you do, being able to, you know, provide that space, it allows for people to pull themselves out of this little dark moments. and give people a little bit more of that confidence to know that it is not the end. It's not all a helpless and hopeless situation. That, you know, at the right time, there is a community out there. There are people out there. There are resources like out there. And that you are not, I think one of the things is that you are not, you're not sick. There's nothing wrong with you.

1:02:14Rachel Lim: Wow. Yeah. I feel like, you know, this whole topic about mental health, It's almost like you are sick. Therefore, you need to go and see a doctor. But I think having gone through, having done all this work, I feel like, yeah, you know, this thing about mindfulness is just all about learning more about yourself. And that's about it. Through the good times and through the bad times. It's just that most people want to do it or feel like they need to do it through the bad times. But all you're doing is just to learn a little bit more about yourself. And I feel like if more people approach it in that way, they'll be more open to seeking some of these things that's out there that's not just help.

1:02:52It's an education. You're learning more about yourself.

1:02:55Rachel Lim: Yeah. Yeah. That's so beautiful. And, you know, if you could have a billboard down the streets of anywhere in any major city in the world, what would your billboard say and why? Actually, there's no words that I'll put on this billboard. to me how I look at the billboard would just be a close-up of my eyes right and I just hope that you know through my eyes people can see the light the peace the happiness that I'm experiencing down and through that I hope that they'll be able to all find that light peace and and happiness that they've all been seeking for because I feel like, yeah, our eyes don't lie.

1:03:47When we are feeling dead inside, our eyes will show it. And I hope that, you know, my eyes will be able to tell my story for me and inspire the rest to be able to do the same.

1:03:59Rachel Lim: Yeah, absolutely. And it means so much considering you've been hiding your eyes from the public for the last 10 years. I mean, it really means so much, Adrian. And, you know, thank you so much for bringing us on this journey with you, where it's almost like we have a front row seat to, you know, your life, your journey, what's unraveling. And this documentary and this chapter that we're on with you, you know, diving deeper. And for me personally, it's been such a privilege to be able to call you a friend and sing lay also. and she's an incredible, incredible partner. And, you know, we can go on a whole other episode talking about the importance of the partners and the people around us in our lives.

1:04:44Rachel Lim: But truly, Adrian, you know, I just want to honour you for the steps that you have taken for yourself and also for owning your voice and using your voice to be able to shine a light and give people hope. and thank you for just owning that and doing that and just giving all of us permission to just lean into our truest selves, no matter how messy it may be at that point in time. You know, we can't wait to continue on this journey with you. And yeah, you know, I think for me, I'm just really so touched and I'm so grateful to have you on this show and hopefully we have many more conversations to come.

1:05:29Rachel Lim: But do you have any other last words for those of us who are listening to you in this conversation? I would say never stop at trying to be your authentic self. I feel like it's a lifelong journey and there's nothing wrong with it. And you'll be surprised by how much light you'll be able to shed on other people if you're authentically yourself. So yeah, be brave. Keep going at it. and go on a journey to constantly discover yourself. Thank you, Adrian, for being such a bright, shining example of that. So for those of us who want to continue to follow you on this journey, where can we find you? My social media handle is adrian.selming.

1:06:15So yeah, if you want a little dose of humor every once in a while, you know, learn about parenting, a little bit about my journey in this mindfulness space that I am. Yeah, feel free to follow me.

1:06:27Rachel Lim: Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.