#46: Infertility, Miscarriage & Quiet Grief

0:00Rachel Lim: Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Who We Are podcast. My guest Shumin began IVF at just 29, a time when many of her peers were not even thinking of having children yet. And after multiple rounds of treatment and even a miscarriage, she is now a mother of two to two young girls. But more than that, she's also a mother to a movement. In 2020, she founded Fertility Support Singapore, a community created by and for women navigating fertility challenges, pregnancy loss and all the unseen in between. This episode is not just about infertility. It's also about how we make space for one another, what it means to hold grief, hope and uncertainty in the same breath.

0:49Rachel Lim: So whether you've been through this yourself or know someone who has or simply want to be a more compassionate human being. This is a conversation I hope that stays with you a long time after it ends. Welcome Shumin, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for that beautiful intro. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. Yes, I am so excited and, you know, privileged to be able to have you on the show and I can't wait to dive into your journey. And as I get to know you better also, I think you have so much different aspects of your life that you can talk about. But today, I want to perhaps focus on the journey that you've had when it comes to conceiving and motherhood.

1:30Rachel Lim: So maybe for those of us who may not be as familiar with you yet, could you give us a brief introduction about yourself and where you are in your journey today? So I'm Shuman. I got married when I was 25 to buy HTP Flat. That's my mum. Relatable. We all understand, yes. So we did the normal thing. We said, let's try to enjoy life a bit. We're still a bit young. So at 27, we decided to start trying for kids. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, it's going to be dragon year and then counting and worrying about primary one. Because I think there's always this assumption, this belief that when you want to have kids, you can have kids.

2:16And when you're young, you're 28, 30, 33, there's always this, it's going to be fine, it's going to be easy. So we started at 27. And I remember, you know, when you're trying to conceive, each month, you know, if your period is late, one or two days, you get a bit excited, you get the pregnancy tests, and they were all negative. So month after month, you know, first few months, you're a bit excited. And then after a few months, you get a bit wary of even doing those tests, you know, because Bid Pantang, I started believing that if I tested that, it would be negative. So that happened for one to two years.

2:56Back then, I didn't know there was a thing called infertility. I didn't know there were things called fertility doctors. I didn't I actually wasn't even sure that I wanted to be a mom until two years into the journey we were at a friend's wedding and I saw a university classmate who was pregnant with her second child and this was a friend's wedding mind you and I burst into tears and I was shocked by how sad I was that I couldn't conceive and that taught me that wanting a child, wanting to conceive is a very visceral, it's a very basic need and instinct that comes to some of us. Not to all, but to some of us.

3:45And so, not being able to do something that should be natural, should come naturally to us is something that is painful. So I told my friend, I said, a colleague, I said, well, you know, I think I'm going to see a gynae because I can't conceive. And then she said, don't be stupid. you don't need a gynae. What you need is a fertility specialist. You need someone who does IVF. And she said, go and see my sister. And because it was a friend's sister, I had that trust in her. So I went to see her sister and that started a journey of my IVF journey. May I ask which year was this

4:24Rachel Lim: that you went through? 2014. 2014. Okay. Yes. I think 2014 versus today. Yes. There is more awareness today. I hope so. Yes. And big thank you because of you and what you've done. But I think 2014, I think it's not something that we even know the language for or even have spoken about. So that was also when perhaps you came to the realization that, okay, your path to motherhood might not unfold the way that you had imagined. Yeah. And so it was also then seeking different forms of support. Yeah. Before we go there, Shumin, could you also ground us in the definition of infertility? Right. So infertility is understood as when you're trying to conceive for one year, but you can't.

5:09Okay. So it's not a big term. It's not a medically complex term. It's just you're trying to conceive after one year because it takes some time. You know, each round that you, each cycle, the chances are supposed to be around one in five. But that gets decreased if, you know, the quality of sperm is not good, if you have too few eggs, all sorts of factors. But keeping it simple, you're trying for one year and you aren't able to conceive, that's infertility. You should see someone about it.

5:35Rachel Lim: Okay. So for you in your journey, you went to see, and thank God for that friend who redirected you to a fertility expert versus, you know, another gyne. Very blessed, yeah. Wow. Okay. So you went to see her sister in 2014. Yes. So I remember thinking, I'm 29. I shouldn't have to do this, you know. the nurse taught us how to mix the various hormones so basically how IVF works is normally each cycle we have one egg IVF has two parts the first part is the stimulation phase so you inject yourself daily and I had a smiley face at the end of it because you alternate each side you inject yourself to stimulate more eggs more eggs maturing, more eggs that can be collected.

6:26You then go for the retrieval where you take out the eggs, they go into the lab, they get fertilized and you count how many embryos that are formed in the lab. Then you have the second stage which is putting the embryos back in you. So that's known as the transfer. After you put the embryo back into you, there is this thing called the two-week wait where you're just waiting. You're just waiting for your blood test result to know whether you're pregnant. Some people dread it because it can, you know, the thing about it is you have no control. You have no control over how many eggs are going to mature, how many eggs are going to fertilize in a lab far away from you, and whether or not your embryo is going to stick.

7:14So you just wait and then you pray and you go from there. And if it works, then it's a successful pregnancy and then you continue as per normal.

7:22Rachel Lim: Yeah. Rewinding a little, what made you decide that, okay, it's time to go for IVF? Oh, so my friend's sister, we ran the tests. My friend's sister looked at the results and said, basically, it was not possible for us to conceive naturally. And so IVF was the only option. So it was a no-brainer. there is the less well there's a less invasive procedure IUI yes some people do that but that wasn't even an option open to us because of the medical condition that we had thank you for sharing so openly Shumin because I think sometimes like we also I think we take for granted that you know like IVF is the only way however like you said there is also IUI which was something that I went through in trying to conceive my second child Kira and I remember Leo and I trying for about six months plus and we decided to go and get checked in case anything had changed after giving birth to Ollie, our first child.

8:22Rachel Lim: So then the doctor also said, okay, because we were kind of hoping that we would conceive soon, she advised that we can try IUI. So that's what I did and I completely understand what you mean by also praying and hoping and waiting for the blood results but for us, it was unsuccessful. for two rounds. And that's why she said, after that, you can consider IVF, you know. But for us, thankfully, we just took a short trip and a holiday to just have a break before coming back and deciding if we wanted to go with IVF. But thankfully, we conceived naturally then. Such a blessing. It is a real blessing.

8:58Rachel Lim: And that's why I am so grateful that, you know, you agreed to come and share about your own journey with IVF. So at 29, you started the process of IVF. So what was it like after going through that first round and praying and hoping for literally positive results? It was first, well, one thing that I remember of that round was the nurse was teaching me how to mix all of the medicines and then she said, now you inject yourself. And then I looked at her and I was like, no. And I steeled myself for a minute and then I just jabbed it in. And I think it was more, now when I think back, it was more accepting that that's something that you need help with.

9:43And that's a path that you need to take. The first round, by the grace of God, it was successful. So I was pregnant for the first time. And it was so joyful. There was just so much joy. and finally telling my mom, you know, finally telling the grandparents. And I remember my husband's smile when, you know, we found out it was a girl. Yeah, and my grandmother was like, you know, it's okay even if it's a girl, which was kind of her, you know, but it was reflective of that. But at the start of the second trimester, first I was feeling very cold and then I was feeling very hot. But we had just seen the baby scan a few days ago, so I didn't think very much about it.

10:33And then the next day, the next morning, I had a difficult hearing. And then in the evening, I started feeling very uncomfortable. And I thought, oh, I better go in to check the next day. And I checked the next day, and I thought I was going in to get Panadol. But the nurse was very kind. She bumped me up the queue so that I could go back to work. And the doctor scanned. and my husband wasn't around because I had sent him off to buy breakfast because I was hungry. And the doctor looked at me and said, I'm sorry, there's no heartbeat. And then time stopped a bit. It was the last thing that I expected.

11:17And it just came out of the blue. And it started a period of struggling because we had struggled so much to finally be pregnant. And we had dreams. We had hopes. We finally were going to be a family. And that was taken away. And so that was difficult. but I had a very supportive, I had so many supportive friends, so many supportive colleagues and bosses. And I made it through. I made it through that period. And I share this because miscarriage is also one of the aspects that we focus on in fertility support. After she told me that there was no heartbeat, she said, you know, you can either take a pill and the baby will come out or you can go for a DNC, which is basically they go in and they take it out.

12:25And this was already second trimester. It was second trimester. And I remember before they rolled me in, I was thinking, please, when I wake up, could you please tell me that you've made a mistake? But when I woke up, they didn't say that. And there was this, I think what a miscarriage leaves you with is this void. Like you feel really empty because there was your child, your hopes and your dreams. And then that child is gone. So that was difficult to navigate. But we wanted to restart the next round of IVF as soon as possible. The doctor said, well, wait for your body to heal for a few months.

13:10And so we did the transfer a few months later. And by the grace of God, you know, my first child was born. She was born, and I'll tell you this story. It was really funny. After you miscarry, you're grasping at hope. You're looking for anything to give you the hope that you will be able to fill that loss, make good that loss. and I remember going to the forums and entering the keywords IVF, miscarriage, it's their hope sort of thing. And there was one post that struck me. It was this lady said, one year to the day of her miscarriage, she gave birth to her firstborn. And I thought to myself, that must be the luckiest lady on earth.

14:02You know, when we were struggling to conceive, my husband and I would sometimes look at young families or families with young kids. I remember there was once we were at Hot Park. We saw them on the swing and I just thought, those people are so blessed, so blessed to have kids. And we were even, you know, talking about, do we want to do adoption? Would we be open to that? Those sorts of things. So I thought that lady is so, so blessed. and one year to the day of my miscarriage, I went to the hospital to be induced to give birth to my first birth. Like you couldn't make it up. And my daughter is born on, literally born on pregnancy and infant loss Remembrance Day.

14:48So, you know, it's a, yeah, I can't make this up, but it's 15 October, by the way. Wow. But, yeah, so that was the, That was the journey. After the loss came the year of carrying my firstborn. The doctor said, we don't know why you miscarried in the second trimester, but it's so difficult for you to conceive. So could you please just take time off? Yes. Just do it properly. Do it properly. Do it properly. And my boss was spectacular. Amazing. I said, this is what my doctor says. without skipping a beat, he said, take the time that you need and, you know, come back when you can. Wow. And that was, I'm always grateful for that.

15:35Rachel Lim: You know, Shumin, even as I hear you recount those difficult months and years, what, which part of everything that you had gone through then was for you most difficult? It was the hardest to go through? I think that there are three things that were difficult. The first was not being in control at all. You know, on this journey, I've met ladies and there's so many people in this community that have gone through so much more than I have and really hats off to them. I've met ladies who have changed their shampoo, stopped dyeing, changed their clothes and done everything. you know, they go to TCM, some fly to some temple in Bangkok to touch some statue.

16:29But you have no control over it. And as, you know, we women sometimes like to be, we like to know what's going on, you know, have a grip on it. And you don't. And so learning to just...

16:41Rachel Lim: It's almost like that sense of helplessness. Yeah, yeah. And learning to just... Surrender. Yeah, exactly. And to just say, I'm just going to, literally, I'm just going to do what I can and whatever it will be, you know, will be. And that sort of acceptance was difficult. I'm sure. What got you through those days? Got you through. That was, I guess I have to say my husband.

17:10Rachel Lim: Because, Shumin, I think it can be such an isolating journey where, especially back then, you don't even really have those support groups to readily available or accessible. and even the time when you were trying to conceive, maybe perhaps most of your peers were not even in that same life stage. So you must have felt so alone and so isolated. And the shame also, I feel, the stigma and the shame. Right. Because it's like there is this misconception there must be something wrong with you because you can't conceive. Like I felt that. It wasn't warranted, now I know. But there is that stigma. It was, yeah, not a lot of people were going through it.

17:53But if I reflect, I wasn't alone because my husband and I were in it together. And I have seen the strongest marriages among some of, you know, the women in this, along this journey. Because you really need to band together. Because after all, you're trying to build a family together. That's what this really is, right? And there's no way forward but together.

18:20Rachel Lim: So your husband and his presence and support was everything. Yeah, and he was going through it too. Although in IVF, the physical toll is mostly on the women. And the miscarriage also. And the miscarriage, but it was his loss as well. It was his child as well. And it's not easy for him or for any husband to watch your wife go through all that. and some husbands have said that it's painful. One of the husbands once shared about how he wants to do his part, but there's only so much that he can do. So he wants to, so he tries to show up by making sure he knows when the appointments are, you know, showing up.

19:03But it's not easy for the husbands as well.

19:07Rachel Lim: And going through the entire period, what do you think you had to unlearn or what beliefs do you have to reframe for you to survive that period? After I miscarried, I really felt like I had done something wrong. And I remember apologizing to the people around me because my frame of mind was, the child was in me. I was carrying the child. If I lost the child, I must have done something wrong. That was the logical thinking. Now I know that actually one in four, I think is the number of pregnancies, end up in miscarriage. It's common. And sometimes there's no reason to it. Sometimes things just happen.

19:55Sometimes there's no reason why you can't conceive. Some of the couples have unexplained infertility. Just now you spoke about how you were struggling to conceive Kira. Secondary infertility is also a real thing, which is where you've already conceived the first. You may not have had issues conceiving the first, but you have problems conceiving the second. That too is a real thing. And sometimes, you know, some people feel all the more frustrated because, you know, I had no problems with the first. Why am I having problems with the second? Yeah, but sometimes there's just no reason for it. Sometimes things just happen that way for reasons that we don't know and you just go with the flow.

20:41Rachel Lim: So in that sense, trying to detach a little bit and not blame yourself. Yeah. That was important in your journey. Yeah, definitely. You know, Shumin, you spoke earlier about the shame that came with it for you. What role did shame play in your journey? And also, how did this journey challenge your sense of womanhood? The stigma, I think amongst our generation, I think it's definitely gotten better, but it's always a bit difficult to say, and I know it's very difficult for many women to say, that, oh, I'm trying, but I'm struggling to conceive. It's not something that you want to be open about to most people.

21:31It's not something that's easy to say. back then, there weren't a lot of people talking about it. There weren't a lot of people posting about it. But now I think we have, at least over the last few years, seen more people coming out. But many are also anonymous. Because even, yeah, we in our community, we have people, sometimes they'll tell me, I follow your account, but I don't click follow. Because if I follow, then people will know that I have issues. I see. So on Facebook, we have an open Facebook group, but actually the real conversations are in the private Facebook group. And, you know, we screen through questions because sometimes, you know, people don't even want other people to know that they're part of that because that's the level of the stigma for some people.

22:24Rachel Lim: What would you say to someone who is listening now and feeling that shame and stigma from not being able to conceive yet? I would say it's not your fault. There's nothing wrong with you. It wasn't my fault. It's not your fault. And I would also say that you're not alone. What you're going through, probably someone around you is going through as well. Just that the both of you don't know it. What you're going through is normal. so many people nowadays are having these same struggles and and it's not it's absolutely not your fault it might feel like it's your fault yeah but I can tell you for a fact that it is not your fault I love that you know Shumin also because it is more common than we think yeah the statistic I think is one in six women face issues or challenges in conceiving yeah and one of the reasons why I really wanted to have this conversation with you was also because I was having a conversation with my younger colleague and just catching up and chatting.

23:38Rachel Lim: And I did not know that she was actually going through challenges conceiving and was potentially exploring IVF after having tried for a while. And obviously it's taken a toll on her mental state, you know, and affected her in that sense. and my heart really goes out because it felt like she was all alone in this journey and didn't know how to navigate it. And it almost seems like sometimes, even I feel like as someone, a friend or a colleague supporting someone through this journey, I don't really know what to say or what not to say or how to encourage or what might be helpful or not helpful. So, you know, in your journey and...

24:26Rachel Lim: what are some things also, I think, words can be so powerful but they can also wound and they can also hurt someone. So, what are some words that have been helpful or unhelpful and even helpful in the journey that you went through? The number one unhelpful thing to say Yes, please tell us. is very easy word. Just relax and then you'll have a kid. That is the number one most unhelpful thing. But I mean, I say it lightly, but people still say that. Yes. Also, sometimes what can be triggering is when you say, hey, when are you going to have kids? You know, you've been married for so long. You know, are you going to have kids?

25:15You know, about time to have kids. So what I've changed to now is I now ask, and me being very capable, I now ask, is having kids part of your plan?

25:27Rachel Lim: Okay. Because it might not be part of everyone's plan. And so it's a way of respecting that, but also, you know, asking what you want to ask. So is having kids part of your plan? Yeah. Wow. Okay. Another thing that I think helps people who are going through the journey is to just be present, to just show up for them, and to just check in once in a while without giving advice, without giving recommendations, but just the small thing of, oh, how are you doing? How's your journey going so far? Just knowing that you think about them and you are there to support without imposing anything because everyone's thoughts, everyone's priorities, everyone's reactions would be different.

26:19that I think really helps because it can be a long journey for me I was really blessed because you know it took me well under two years for me to

26:31Rachel Lim: it's still a significant time yeah but I'm the lucky one right there are many women who have gone through continue to go through this for years and their their strength is just incredible but But just being there, showing up for them is huge. The last thing that, and it's a line that I like to tell couples, and it's something that I believe in, which is you will have the children that you are meant to have at the time that you are meant to have them. Can you please repeat that again? It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. It's true though. You will have the children that you're meant to have at the time that you were meant to have them.

27:23And I know that from personal experience. When I see my two daughters, when I remember what I had to go through to be blessed with them, it's a journey. And it's... You know, everyone's ending will be different. In this community, I've seen women who thankfully succeed. Some turn to surrogacy. Some adopt. Some say, I've tried. I'm at peace. I'm done. And all of the endings are to be respected. There's no one ending that's better than the other. you know so it's I think having the acceptance that everyone's ending is different everyone's timing is different you're meant to have a child you will have it at the time that you are meant to have that I think is is something that is important for people to know

28:34Rachel Lim: and it's something that we should hold on to you know what Shuminas I was also sharing about my colleague and I was chatting with her I also feel a sense of heaviness that she was carrying And from your experience and journey and also in your interactions with many of these women, what are some of the silent griefs that women carry that are not talked about enough? I think one is obviously society sometimes has these expectations of what a wife should do, you know, of what if you're married, what you should do, right? And some women, rightly or wrongly, feel that there's a role that they have to play.

29:20That I think is changing. But if you... And in particular, in some communities, that is even stronger. Because you see your friends having children. See your friends having children. They're on to their second, third child. You can't conceive. There is this... I'm not playing my part. There's something wrong with me and I'm not playing my part. so not being able to fulfill that duty some people see of it as duty is I think one of the challenges

29:51Rachel Lim: when it comes to perhaps loss, miscarriage, infertility there's a lot of societal pressures that we need to stay hopeful and we need to stay positive that it will happen, it will come but how do you also navigate that while also making space for that despair and sadness that comes along with the journey. Yeah, it's a bit... The weirdest part is you know that you have to be hopeful, but at the same time, you're struggling with disappointment and grief. So during my year off, I took a course in counselling, and one of the conveners said something which is, and I've told many women this, visualize your womb as a place of light.

30:45Because, you know, when you transfer the embryo back in, you want the womb to be a place of light, a place of warmth, a place of optimism, of hope. Yeah. So that kind of helps to dissociate between, you know, the grief or the disappointments that are going on up there and to just focus on, okay, can just visualize that being a place of light and that i think is is is one of the things that i now say to to women who are on the path another one that i thought was very powerful was for how do you hold your hope when you go through these treatments because you know you imagine you've struggled for two years this is really you know you're you're chabbing yourself you know you're really going to and you have hope but then again you don't really dare to hope because you've been disappointed for so long.

31:41So you want to also, in a sense,

31:42Rachel Lim: protect yourself against too much, too deep a disappointment by managing your expectations. So the visualization exercise is hold your hope like you would a little egg in your cusp, you know, in your palm. So you're not holding it too tightly so that you crush it, but you just hold it gently and you hold space there. And so that I thought was a very helpful way of just balancing and managing hope. But hope is everything. At the same time, we don't want to give unrealistic hope. So it's a balance. It's an important balance. What I love about you, Shumin, is also that you didn't waste the pain that you went through.

32:22Rachel Lim: And from that personal grieving and healing process, also led you to public action by starting Fertility Support Singapore, a great community that you've built for the last five years. So could you tell us more about that and what drove you to decide to start something? The first thing is, I didn't start it alone. There were many incredible, incredible women. Yeah. And so many, like I said, it's an instant sisterhood. Yeah. So what started it was when I went for my first transfer. and this was 2014 yes 2014 and as I was going for the transfer they have this they call it counselling but it's financial counselling and they said oh because you're at Mount E because my my friend's sister was at Mount E it's not a public hospital you don't get the government grant and then I went what?

33:19the government pays you for this? the government subsidise this? and I didn't know you didn't even know nothing I knew nothing of that I said because it might have perhaps helped me. Change some of the decisions that you made. Yeah, and I was like, I didn't know. So for the longest time, what was on my heart was just to have a website. Just to have a website that consolidated information. First told people what was IVF because I had no clue. I literally was just following the doctor's instructions every step of the way and learning along the way. But a website that told people what's IVF, what's IUI, what's infertility, what are the CPF grants

33:59Rachel Lim: available to support. And so that was an idea that I wasn't the first one to have it. There were other women who had the same idea and so there were initial discussions in 2016-17 to start something up. But you know, life takes place. People have children, things fall away by the side. And in 2020 20, COVID, yeah, everyone's stuck at home. And I thought, by then my child was, my younger one had turned one already, and I thought, well, maybe I'll stuck at home. Now's the time to do something. So I remember putting out, there was another IVF group on Facebook. I put out a post saying, this is the vision, would you like to contribute?

34:48And the community was overwhelming. Like so many women said, yes. I went to Instagram, hashtag IVF SG. I cold messaged them to say, hey, this is what I'm thinking of doing. Would you like to come back? At least they're volunteers. They're all volunteers. Because this is a non-profit. They are, exactly. And that's why I say, I'm not doing this alone. There's so many women who came on board and who said, yes, this is absolutely needed in Singapore. So I remember we had all these Zoom meetings back then it was COVID to just get to know each other. And I met an incredible group of ladies who came together.

35:25We split up the website, split up the content. Each person took a separate chapter. Then we launched the website. And then we had this Instagram account. And we didn't know what to do with it. We just took the handle. And I feel like at the beginning, we were…

35:40Rachel Lim: You had no five-year business plan. Absolutely not. It was entirely organic. At first, we thought, I just wanted to give hope. So we started doing these motivational posts. And then we started sharing stories. Some of the women were so talented in Instagramming, putting up the stories, and we got a huge reaction to the stories. So that taught me that sharing stories is the most powerful way to normalizing it because when you're going through that, you're reading stories, you know for a fact you're not alone. Somebody else is doing that. So that started gaining traction. many private clinics were helpful and you know supportive in doing Instagram live sessions with doctors and I counted every single follower from 1 to 1 ,000 and by the grace of God today we now have more than 9 ,000 followers on Instagram and we have a we have this amazing group of women who volunteer their time because they want to give back because they know the pain and they're all driven by the same thing they inspire me they want to help and they are so passionate about it because they know the pain and it's honestly a privilege to know them.

36:57Rachel Lim: And you mentioned also in one of your interviews, Shumin, that you believe that no one should be walking through this journey alone. What does, in your opinion, what does real soul level support look like in this journey? When you say that, the first thing I think of are our meetups, our in-person meetups. The physical meetups. Yeah. We do that and it's special when it's face-to-face and you can really hold the hands and you know you can literally tell them that you're not alone. But in today's day and age, support also, we do many different avenues of support. Another one is the content that we push out.

37:41And we came up with a roster, Monday is motivational, Tuesday we share stories, Friday we give information, we give practical tips and you know the amazing thing is that every post is created with love with sincerity by a volunteer not by a paid staff all of it is by a volunteer that has gone through the same thing and so there's literally speaking to the community that is going through it

38:11Rachel Lim: and genuinely and generously just sharing yes you know Shumin recently you also launched Singapore's first workplace fertility guidebook. Did I get it correct? You did, you did. Not me, fertility support it, but yes. Okay, you and the community launched Singapore's first fertility guidebook. And tell us more about that. And what do you hope that it shifts? So that started because in our meetups, there were so many women that said, no, we want real support. So many people were saying, I can't take time off. So remember I told you the first part of IVF you have to scan every two weeks? You actually need to calibrate the dosage of the hormones.

38:57So every other day, you're going to the doctor, he's scanning the ovaries, and then he will tweak the medicine as required. So you can imagine it's a huge chore to have to go every other day and explain it to your supervisor or to your colleagues while you're in late, one to two hours. So many women were saying, look, I'm struggling with that. I'm struggling with how do I get the, first, how do I even tell my boss? Some of them, you know, they have male bosses. They find it difficult to broach the topic even. It's a bit hard. And so we thought, well, something has to be done. Systemic level. Yes.

39:38And so this idea came about, but we were very blessed with the people that joined the sisterhood to really work on it there are two people that stand out one was Simran she was from SG Her Empowerment she comes in and she says we need data on this so we need to understand and we now have the data which is more than 40 % think that say that infertility has affected their work they've taken a backseat they've changed jobs they've stopped work altogether just to focus on treatment that's a huge number it's a huge number about one third didn't even tell their workplaces that they were undergoing infertility because they were worried about the stigma.

40:20What are some of the concerns? Some of them say, well, first, I don't know how to raise it. Second, I'm worried that if I raise it, I'm going to take a hit. People are not going to promote me. People are not going to give me the next big project.

40:32Rachel Lim: It will affect their chances of progress at the workplace. So, one lady in the community shared in one of us sensing polls that her boss actually told her, maybe you're not meant to have kids. So that still happens in 2025. This day and age. Yeah. So we got the data. We realized the numbers. And then it came to drafting the guidebook. And the guidebook, one of the ladies, Sinle, very generously said, she said, I'm going to take the pen. I'm going to come up with the framework. And it was an iterative process. I mean, everyone chipped in. But for her to take that mantle was huge and it was really generous.

41:14Wow. So it's really amazing the commitment that these ladies have to transforming their pain into purpose. Yes. It's inspirational.

41:28Rachel Lim: And it's so inspirational and beautiful to witness. Yeah. And on that note, what do you think we as organizations, leaders, colleagues, what are some small but powerful ways that we can also do to support our colleagues or employees who are seeking fertility help? So I think practically, it's really the mindset shift. It's really sending the message that we know that these are struggles, these are real struggles. We respect them and we'll give you the space. What does that translate to in real terms? Some companies might have an articulated policy. Other companies have awareness roundtables. So we do host roundtables, closed-door sessions and dialogues in businesses.

42:24because we've noticed that actually sometimes people do want to help. They just don't know what actually the problem is. They don't know what the treatment process is. Yes. And so they don't know what to say. So if they would just, so we go in, we share our stories, we tell them what the process is like. And so that hopefully will start the normalizing process. it will you think about it if you are someone who's trying to tell your boss and you know there's a round table or there's a support session at a lunch time where it's already being spoken about it's just that much easier to raise it after that I mean we're also working to roll out the guidebook and to bring it to more companies and to to work with more of them and hopefully hopefully they're okay

43:15Rachel Lim: yes and I think you know like just getting more awareness on this topic and what it's like where can we for those of us who are interested where can we get this workplace fertility guidebook so we have a website fertilitysupport.sg and you can download it from our website okay so we can download it share it with you know our organizations our HR teams or even our managers yeah you know Shu Min as we also wrap up I wanted to ask if we could go back to younger Shu Min who was perhaps deep in the dark days of despair, disappointment, and feeling like, you know, you're not sure whether there's any hope or whether things might work out the way you hoped for it to.

44:03Rachel Lim: And even the Shumin who was sitting anxiously at the waiting room of the clinic, what would you say to her? I would say, hold on. hold on

44:18when I was going through the journey I wanted to know how it ended so many times I told God especially after after the miscarriage I said why would you give me something and then take it away you know don't give and take away don't give me the hope give me the dreams and then take it away and I also said, just let me know how it ends. Am I going to have kids? Am I not going to have kids? Because if I'm not going to have kids, can I spare myself all of this? But I've learned that sometimes we just have to walk the path. There are lessons that we need to learn in walking the path. Now, when I was 29, I couldn't understand why I had to do IVF.

45:09IVF. I was resentful. It doesn't make sense. You know, you're in your 20s. Why do I have to do IVF? Now, today, I'm so grateful that I did it when I was 29 because I'm grateful for the community. I'm grateful that I can journey. I have the privilege of working with and journeying such incredibly strong ladies. But all this you don't know unless and until you walk the the path. And it's not easy, right? We just want to know the ending. We just want to know how it ends. But sometimes you just have to hold on and you just have to go through all of that. That's what I would say.

45:50Rachel Lim: That's beautiful. And also to know that they're not alone. They don't have to go through it alone. Yeah. And hopefully we've changed that. Or are changing that. Yes. You know, Shumin, thank you so much for all the amazing work that you and your team at Fertility Support Singapore do for the community and more. If we want to find out more about the group, where can we get more information or even join the group? So first, definitely, please go to our Instagram account. Our handle is fertilitysupport.sg. That has links to our private Facebook group, to our website that has the guidebook. And again, when you go there, just know that it is a labor of love.

46:34The website, the content, the design, it's a labor of love by real women who have gone through the journey. And every single post on our Instagram is a label of love by someone else who has gone through that path. But thank you so much for having me and for shining the spotlight on these issues and trying to help us to normalize these issues. Sincerely, thank you. Thank you, Shumin, for also wholeheartedly

47:03Rachel Lim: and openly sharing your journey with us and the struggles. Do you have any last words or message that you would want to share to anyone who's listening to this conversation? I would say, if you're going through this struggle now, you're not alone. Reach out to us. You need anything. And I would just end with, you will have the child that you are meant to have at the time that you're meant to. I know it's not easy. I know it's not easy, but just hold on until then. No, you're okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.