#50: What a Trial Lawyer Learned About Love, Arguments & Raising Kids

0:00Rachel Lim: Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Who We Are podcast. Every so often, you come across someone who changes how you think about something you thought you already understood. And for me, that person was Jefferson Fisher. A trial lawyer turned communication coach, Jefferson has spent years helping millions of people not just talk better, but connect better. His book, The Next Conversation, has been sitting with me because it's not just about communication. I think it's really also a lot about the human psyche, about what happens before we even open our mouths. I've always believed that the quality of our lives is determined by the quality of our conversations with others and with ourselves.

0:43Rachel Lim: So today we're going to go there. The arguments, the silences, the hard truths, the moments we wish we had said something differently and the grace that comes after. This is a conversation about what it really means to be human, one word at a time. Hi Jefferson, welcome to the show.

1:02Jefferson Fisher: Thank you so much for having me. I am absolutely thrilled and honored to be here with you.

1:07Rachel Lim: Jefferson, for those of us who may not be as familiar with you, could you share with us a little bit about yourself and the journey that you have had that got you to where you are today?

1:17Jefferson Fisher: Absolutely. In a very quick glance at it, about three years ago almost now, I started making videos in my vehicle about how to communicate. I'm a trial attorney by trade. And at the time, I was starting my own law firm. I had gone from a big law firm to do something all on my own. And in that transition, I thought, well, I'd like to start making videos about how I teach my own clients and lessons I've learned in my own life and experience about how to improve better communications. That means how to handle difficult conversations, how to stand your ground, how to sound more confident. How do you regulate yourself in times of immense stress and conflict?

1:57Jefferson Fisher: And those videos started to take off. and shortly thereafter there was a I wrote a book now the next conversation and I have my own podcast and things just started to happen that more and more people wanted more and more of my tips and advice and that's what's developed into and I've it's just been the biggest blessing and passion of mine to be able to do that and for anybody that's going well you know what is this you know what is his book about? What is he about? And it's this, there are people that might teach you how to play an instrument and maybe play guitar, play the clarinet. I give you the notes to play.

2:39Jefferson Fisher: I give you the sheet music. I, I help you use that instrument in a way that's going to sound and resonate a unique voice of your own, not just playing the instrument. So that's, that's what we do.

2:52Rachel Lim: Wow. Well, you know, every time I watch a video of yours on social media, I wish that they had taught this to us in school. It's such like an important and essential life skill, you know? And that's why I guess you also really took off in popularity and gained so much traction because all of these things, and you made it so tangible for us as well. You know, Jefferson, I read and heard also that you're a fifth generation child attorney. and you've also spent years you know uh in in this line you were trained to win arguments what made you realize that connection matters more than victory

3:32Jefferson Fisher: because i've had the victories and have still seen the sorrow i've seen people clients that i've helped win cases and they're still sad you know because even though they got the win and they thought they wanted, it wasn't truly what their heart desired. And that was connection. That was resolution. I've seen so many cases that have been filed and resolved because somebody just wanted to hear, I'm sorry. And that just highlights this fact that we feel like the fight is justified until you're the one that's standing and the person is down at your feet and you realize this isn't what you wanted. And what people desire more than anything is connection among other people to the world around them.

4:23Jefferson Fisher: And when they read my book, when they watch my content or listen to my podcast, what they're always going to hear is that kindness and connection and clarity always triumph over the quick wins and the clapbacks.

4:41Rachel Lim: Wow. I mean, it sounds like there's really so much nuances as well. And earlier you spoke about how you also train your clients before they go on the stand. Could you tell us more about that? And maybe are there some examples of how you think a client was before and how he or she was after and how that helped in the case as well?

5:03Jefferson Fisher: Whenever a client comes to me, usually it's at the worst time of their life. They are emotionally overwhelmed. This is the most stressed out they've ever been, the most scared they've ever been. They're afraid of things. There's a big difference of what anxiety causes about your feel of things versus the facts of things. And so I'm talking to them when they're in the feelings of things. And so what I do is I teach them techniques that are going to, when they're in that chair and they're being asked questions, either by me or by another attorney or by the judge, they are going to know who they are, what they stand for, and why they're there.

5:40Jefferson Fisher: And so techniques such as something I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. So what does that mean? That means wherever your first word would be in your response to someone, you put a breath in its place. And what that does is center you. It keeps you regulated. It keeps your mind right rather than getting emotionally, they say, hijacked or flooded. And so it pushes the mindset that you are thinking rather than reacting. You are responding rather than reacting to any question that you get. So for example, I had this client. She was wonderful. She was also very timid, very timid, meaning she was very shy.

6:31Jefferson Fisher: Her voice was very small. And any time that I prepare her, she'd start getting very nervous. and maybe someone listening knows someone like this, where you, in times of conflict or argument, they shake, maybe they tear up, maybe they cry, maybe their voice shakes, and they don't know what to do with that. That's exactly how she was. And over and over, what I would reinstate and train her on was using her breath throughout her sentences, afterwards, before words, and realizing not just being in the conversation, but being an observer of the conversation. So that's another one that I big time use with my clients.

7:14Jefferson Fisher: So what did that look like for her? She went from being somebody who was extremely timid and would rapid fire her responses and get very emotional in her responses to all of a sudden, she's now somebody that can smile in that position, be calm, be centered. And now she's at a place where she knows exactly where that attorney is going and she can appreciate and observe the conversation rather than feeling like the conversation is happening to her. And there's all kinds of techniques that we go of and each one's different for each different personality. But that's a very short example of somebody that when you really focus and invest in the power of your communication, you can be something that you had no idea you could be.

8:00Rachel Lim: That's amazing. And Jefferson, you have also spent years in the courtroom and that's also one place where words can literally change someone's life. I'm also fascinated by the experience that you shared also. And I want to ask, you know, because the courtroom really is just human emotion magnified under oath. So what do you think, or is there a trial that you remember that taught you something unforgettable about communication? Maybe not about the law, but more about communication and humanity.

8:36Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, I had a trial once where this was earlier on in my career and I was at an early mindset where I felt like I had to give all the facts. You know, I had to explain every single detail. I needed to feel like they needed to know every detail, flip over every rock, And what I learned after the trial was that I was giving too much information. Sometimes you need to let the facts speak for themselves. Often your behavior is a bigger message than the words that you use. So I could say all the facts that I wanted to, I could bring up every piece of evidence, but if I acted desperate, if I acted as though I wasn't giving them enough, then they feel like they're not getting enough.

9:22Jefferson Fisher: And then the more words I use, the more it sounds like I'm worried about what I'm saying. And often the strength lies in being extremely concise and sticking with that theme, with that answer, not trying to give all this stuff that you think is important when really it's not. It's your behavior. You have to almost, at least in a jury sense, and I think in any communication sense, people trust you more when you give them the path, but let them walk in it. In other words, you're not having to tell them, step here, step here, step here, step here. You, you, you, you are letting them come to their own conclusion that matches yours, but you do it in a way like leaving the breadcrumbs.

10:12Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. Let's talk together. It's as you're creating the path, but your people don't like to feel like they're being led in their thoughts. Exactly. So yeah, you take it as somebody you want to change their mind, right? Let's, let's say I want to change your mind about something. And if I say, no, no, no, no, no. Listen, you're going about this all wrong. What you need to be thinking of, what's your immediate thought? Your immediate goes, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't, no, no, no. I don't like this. I don't like being told what to do. But if I, if I were to want to change your mind and say, you know what?

10:41I think that's, that's a really good perspective.

10:44Jefferson Fisher: I hadn't thought of that before. And what I see when I think about this, I see this and I lay out that path and I'm persuasive in the way that it's convicted me. And people see how they, people see your affection for things. People see you're thinking for things, not in your words, but in your behaviors. And so they have to match, right? That's the definition of integrity, making sure of your behavior matches what comes out of your mouth. And when you can lay that path for them, rather than trying to tell them how wrong they are or why they should believe what you believe, it's always going to be better.

11:22Rachel Lim: So how should we think about it? Is there like a three-step, you know, for example, if we disagree with someone and we want to get them on board to think what we're thinking or to agree with what we're thinking, how should we go about that?

11:37Jefferson Fisher: Number one would be acknowledge their point of view. I mean, nobody's ever been convinced by telling them how wrong they are. You know, nobody's ever wanted to listen to you because you told them that they're wrong and stupid and they lack intelligence. Nobody said, oh, you're so right. Let me listen to you more. That clams them up. So one is to simply acknowledge their point of view. What does that sound like? That sounds like saying, I can see. I like using words of perspective, meaning I'm saying, I can see that. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that approach. I can see where you're coming from.

12:16Jefferson Fisher: That's all it takes. all right it is seriously that easy say i can see that or i can hear that anytime you you you use those kind of um the five senses words you know uh that that you are it's easy way to just acknowledge their point or uh others i like is to say what's been helpful you know hey that's helpful to know thank you for sharing that with me that's helpful or tell them what you've learned hey after listening to you what i've learned is that this is really important to you and see i I don't have to explain at all that I agree with them or disagree with them. I'm just, what? Appreciating their point of view.

12:53Jefferson Fisher: Two, if you're dealing with somebody after you acknowledge with them and you want to have a different approach, then use words of approach and perspective. So this is very related. Let's say you're saying something that I don't agree with and I want to change your mind, right? What I would say is, hey, I can see that. When I think about it, from my perspective, I think of it as X, Y, and Z. You see how I want you to compare it to you and I on two sides of a mountain. You're on one side, I'm on another. And you're going, this is what I see. And I'm going, if I say, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what's there.

13:31Jefferson Fisher: This is what I see. We're just, we're arguing, rather than arguing points, you argue perspectives.

13:38Rachel Lim: Perspectives, yeah.

13:39Jefferson Fisher: Yes. Yes. So rather than saying, because if I'm telling you, no, what you're seeing is not true. That's me arguing your point. And that's, that's trying to diminish your, your, what your brain is telling you is true. So rather than fight that, what you're offering, the path you're offering is, I have a different perspective. I think about it a different way. And what happens when you do that is that people actually naturally get curious. They go, huh, what do you, what do you see over there? Oh, that's not what I, you're not seeing what I see. Oh, well then what do you, what do you see? And the more you can show them your confidence and your perspective, people feed off that.

14:21people get really subconsciously drawn towards somebody who is convicted in what they believe.

14:31Rachel Lim: Jefferson, you teach communication, but I think what you're really teaching is emotional regulation. Do you see it that way?

14:38Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, I think emotional regulation is a requirement of sound communication. Same for emotional intelligence. If you want to have clear communication, what we say is you have to say it with control. That leads directly into emotional regulation. Because if you're not regulated, if you don't say it with control, you can throw it all out the window. It's not going to matter.

15:02Rachel Lim: And was that something that you had trained yourself since you were much younger? To have that restraint and discipline and self-control to regulate yourself, not to react whenever someone say something that might trigger you? Oh, were you just born like that?

15:19Jefferson Fisher: Well, some of it is my personality. You know, I'm the oldest of four. I was just an old soul kind of thing. But watching my dad and other members of my family, attorneys, I'd say good attorneys, they handle things in a way that are much more diplomatic. so what are some strengths or things that i can tell you that are benefits of the courtroom as in any attorney or a lawyer is that you one you think of you spend 90 percent of your effort thinking of the other person's argument for them so you know their argument better than your own and what that does is help you not only understand their point of view and understand what they want it helps you understand their holes and that is incredibly beneficial uh two would be always understanding you begin with the end first so in court here in america the jury is given a set of jury instructions it's a document it's a document that has questions on it you know somebody liable responsible guilty all that stuff if you don't the good attorneys start with that document when they prepare the case.

16:40Jefferson Fisher: Bad attorneys wait to the very end to look at that document because you start with the beginning. How does that apply to regular communication? You need to lead with your conclusion. If we need to have a difficult conversation and I'll wait to the very end to give you my takeaway or give you what I'm really wanting to talk about, then I've wasted valuable time to connect with you. And so things like that are ways that have always helped me in my life be able to regulate better. And I mean, my dad is just somebody that was very good at teaching me. There are things that you can't control, you know, and you can be upset about them, but they don't have to change you.

17:20Jefferson Fisher: And I have so many memories of little things that he would do along the way that would help remind me that But I'm the one in control of whether I say anything, do anything. And if somebody's going to be upset, they can be upset. That doesn't have to affect me.

17:39Rachel Lim: And as a father, as a dad yourself now, could you give us parents some tips on how to start nurturing and training our kids to be able to become better communicators?

17:52Jefferson Fisher: Well, what can I say to help people communicate better with their children? It would be this. One is you have to model recovery. I know many people, many, many people who've never heard their parents or their father apologize, ever say they were sorry. Or ever say, I love you. Or ever say, I was wrong. Or ever say, I made a mistake. And people listening to that right now know what that feels like. They don't see that as something to be good. They see that as something that they missed. And if you want to be able to communicate better with your children, you have to model recovery. What does that sound like?

18:37Jefferson Fisher: It sounds like, hey, you know what? Dad didn't say that very nice, did he? Hey, you know what? Dad could have said that better. Hey, you know what? Dad made a mistake. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And they need to hear you say that, especially dads, in my opinion. um they need to hear you own when you're short when you're say something ugly or or maybe rude or not as nice as you could have you know things that you wouldn't have allowed them to say but things you you feel like you fully have a license to say or behaviors um that you can you know be short demand that they do this demand that they do that and just leave it at that that What you're doing is creating a vacuum and a hole that they will fill with something else that is not you if you don't do that.

19:29Jefferson Fisher: And the other that I focus on with communication with kids is very related, and that is being a safe space. Kids mess up a lot. And you know what? We mess up a lot. My kids are seven of five, and the mistakes they make right now are very, very small. and they're going to be 17 and 25. And you know what? They're going to make really big mistakes because you know what? I make big mistakes all the time and I'm in my mid thirties. And so I still feel like a kid, you know? And I think, here's an example. One time my son came to me and he had his hand over his shirt and he's walking up to me and he was looking really embarrassed.

20:15Jefferson Fisher: Guilty. Guilty, sad. Like he was coming to admit something and he goes, dad, I did something bad. I said, what's going on? And he pulled down his hands and there was a hole. This was like a nice polo shirt. All right. And there was a, there was a big hole right in the middle of it. I said, what happened? He goes, I cut it. I said, you cut it with what scissors. I said, okay, well, what, why'd you do that? He goes, I just, I just wanted to see if it would cut. And, uh, I said, well, what did we learn? He goes, it cuts. Yep. I said, yeah. I said, yeah, it cuts. Then yeah. Okay. Well, let's not, I said, well, we can't wear that shirt.

21:02Jefferson Fisher: Let's, let's, let's probably not do that. He's like, yeah, I'm not going to do that anymore. And so, But what I did in that moment was I told him, thank you for coming to me. Thank you for coming to me. Kids have a lot of options of who they get to share information with. They'll go to their best friends. And when they're teenagers, they'll go with their boyfriends or girlfriends. And girls will find boys that aren't their dads to confide stuff in. And boys will find girls to confide stuff in that aren't their mom. and because they don't feel like they have a safe space to come to. And so I always want to be a place where, let me say it differently.

21:43Jefferson Fisher: I never want their thought to be, I can't tell dad. And so when I have a mindset of thank you for coming to me, hey, you know what? This was really brave of you to tell me. I know you could have just kept this in and you telling me this, that's a really big confidence step. This is a big confidence moment. And so whenever I'm able to instill that in them, of no matter what they do, they can come to dad or they can come to mom. Like that's an everyday thing that we practice.

22:10Rachel Lim: Oh, I love that. Thank you for sharing. And I think just to recap, you know, like what you said, when it comes to parenting as well, I think it's really important to model recovery and also to be that safe space for our kids. Is there anything else that you do specifically, you know, to be able to also help them with their own communication skills? Like do you train them in a particular way? Is there an activity that you do with them?

22:37Jefferson Fisher: That's a great question. You know, what we do in my house is when our kids start arguing, we let them argue. We let them argue. Because this is where they, this is training ground. I mean, they have a brother and sister, right? And those skills are going to translate wherever they go. So this should be the safest. This should be the most accepted place for them to have arguments. They have arguments about the silliest of things. Who's too close to me? Who's touching me? Who has this toy that you didn't want five seconds ago? And who has this so that you didn't even know you had this? Just little things that with any parent knows what I'm talking about.

23:23Jefferson Fisher: But to understand what we do is we allow them to argue, but we have house rules. So there's no name calling. There's no yelling. Um, there's, there's no saying ugly things, but the point is why do we allow them to argue? Because this is the training ground. We want them to be able to develop negotiation skills. We want them to be able to develop skills of what's going to persuade, not persuade, what's going to affect the communication. What, what are my skills and what's, how's the best if I want something of my brothers or I want something of my sisters and I want resolution or to talk about things, how is that going to go?

24:01Jefferson Fisher: and this in the home should be the safest place practice training ground yeah because where else are they going to do it they're going to do it with the kid at school who's the bully or somebody that's not going to be helpful that you you don't know and you can't monitor but you know when they

24:15Rachel Lim: were arguing and you were sharing earlier about you want them to learn how to negotiate better and to persuade better and things like that what happens in the moment i have two kids five and two a boy and a girl as well yeah so jefferson i want to ask you do you pause you know the argument midway and say okay you know what maybe this is what you should say or do you give them a debrief

24:36Jefferson Fisher: after oh great great question so what i do is in in the moment so this is a good example this was last night or two nights ago all right we don't even play the game and neither do my kids but they've collected pokemon cards like just it's impossible to be a parent and not see a pokemon on card. If you have kids, it's just, it's very popular in Asia too. Yeah, I can imagine. So we've naturally just collected them, like just have them in the house, how we get them. I have no clue. Um, my kids really don't know what they mean. You know, they don't play the game. And so my daughter just knows she has them and they're my, her, you know, she has these and her brother doesn't have them.

25:15Jefferson Fisher: So she feels like she has something. So they, they were wanting to like trade and she'll be like, well, this one has the most shiniest, you know? And then he's, he's trying to say which one has the most, you know, power with it or whatever. And so what I do is I kind of sat next to my daughter and I was like, do you want his? I was like, okay, well, what, why do you want his? And she's like, I don't know. You know what I mean? She doesn't, she doesn't really know. I was like, okay, well, what do you think is important to him? She's like, well, he wants the one that's the strongest. I was like, okay, well, if you know that, what do you, what should you do?

25:45Rachel Lim: You see how I'm like, I am, and he hears me do it. You're training her process, her thought process.

25:51Jefferson Fisher: Exactly. So it's not like, so what I have to, and the same for him, I was like, it's not what you want. You need to, what is, what does she want? What do you think she wants? You know? And, and so a lot of that is me encouraging them not to think about them, but to think about the other person. So I might ask him the question, and why do you think she's upset? And so I'm getting him to think the other side of it. And the better they get at it, the more they're going to be able to use that in the real world.

26:18Rachel Lim: This is such great tips, Jefferson. Thank you so much. And I want to ask you, when two people argue, whether adults or kids, what do you think they're really fighting for or about beneath the words?

26:33Jefferson Fisher: Security. If I were to tell you that you're wrong about something, um i'm not just saying you're wrong i'm saying i could be saying your friend is wrong i could be saying your mom and dad are wrong i could be saying your grandmother is wrong i could be saying that whole experience that you had when you were nine was wrong and and the more important the topic the more this becomes true and it's it becomes a part of our identity and we feel it in religion and we fill it in these really political topics, big, important topics that the more I tell you that you're wrong, it's never that I'm telling you you're wrong.

27:16Jefferson Fisher: I'm telling you that your whole identity and your belief system is wrong.

27:20Rachel Lim: And belief system, yes.

27:21Jefferson Fisher: And so, and then people don't like that feeling. They will claim up even more to feel safe. And so they seek and search for security because you know, and anybody listening knows, you've had a conversation with somebody and you present evidence to them. No, this is what happened on this day. And you know how much they care about it? Zero. They don't care. Facts don't work because they will find any way to flip it. They will justify it. They don't care what this president did. They care about what the last president did or they justify it in some way that makes it fit their security. And so we are naturally defending against, pushing against, keeping out anything that's going to affect us.

28:14Jefferson Fisher: So we have what they call confirmation bias. We search for the things in conversation that confirm what we know. So that's when you hear that, well, at least I'm not as bad as, well, that's not as terrible as this. And so it's continually to justify, try rationalize, explain to keep the security. Because if you, the more important the topic, the more you are affecting their belief system. And what they hear is not, I'm wrong. They hear your whole belief system is off and they don't do that. You know, so if somebody shares something and you can tell it's meaning something bigger to them, this is where you ask questions like, well, how long have you thought this way?

28:55Jefferson Fisher: Where did you learn this? Oh, okay. Well, that's helpful for me. And I've never thought about it that way. What else comes to mind for you? And you just start pulling it apart. And then what you're going to learn is, hey, you know what? They learned this when they were 12, when their dad told them, this is what you are now. This is where we go to church. This is where we vote. This is where we do this. This is how we do X. And it is, people are just living, you know, throughout the generations. Like what's the thing they say you know the worst thing about parents is that they had parents you know so you you know that you just continue on and what and what you are yeah no that's so helpful and

29:35Rachel Lim: you know i also want to ask you you know jefferson like you talked earlier also about um your dad teaching you when you were growing up that to focus on what you can control and a lot of times it's ourselves so how do you train yourself you know in a world that we can control how people communicate with us. How do you train yourself to be able to control yourself and sort of have that equanimity and groundedness?

30:01Jefferson Fisher: One, you have to be willing to put yourself in it. The more you avoid the difficult conversations, the less you'll be able to handle difficult conversations. If you avoid the hard meetings, the less you'll be able to handle hard meetings. So one would be, you have to be willing to sit in it and be in it and handle it and face it. So if you run from it, you'll never be proficient in it um ever it doesn't just occur naturally like that too is to what we talked about earlier it's still spot on is using your breath so when somebody says something like that give yourself about three seconds even five seconds after they've said it to take a breath and what you're signaling is i'm thinking about this i'm regulated i'm processing and I'm choosing my words.

30:55Jefferson Fisher: And that in and of itself is a very big power move and a confidence move of saying, no, no, no, I'm selecting what I'm going to say. So even if somebody were to say something to you and you pause and go, I'm thinking how I want to respond. Like everybody is going in the rooms going, oh, okay, wow, that's, she is controlled. She knows what she's doing. She is confident, right? So just that right there is huge. And three, using the power of questions. And so rather than feeling like you have to respond, a question isn't a response. A question is simply reframing what they said. And so let's say they said something that feels like it hurt your ego in some way.

31:44Jefferson Fisher: And you're going to give it five seconds. And you say, I'm thinking. and use a question that goes to their intent. Did you say that to offend me? Or did you say that as something that we can all move forward with? Now you're giving them a choice, which you can, or you could just say, let's say it's something really ugly. Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? Did you say that to hurt me? Or simply, how did you want me to feel when you said it? How do you feel when you say that? Things that question what they're saying now, the worse, the uglier the comment, the more powerful that question is going to hear.

32:30But if it's something that could certainly be your ego, I like anytime it's a kind of a question

32:39Jefferson Fisher: like that, I like asking, did you mean questions? You know, did you mean for that to sound off? did you sound did you mean for that to sound offensive or on the offensive uh did you mean did you mean for that to sound you know strong in my world like even even my wife and i text this back and forth sometimes we'll say did you mean for that to sound short did you mean for that to sound short because if i just respond okay in a text message yeah you can have all kinds of different okays, you know, as you know.

33:15Rachel Lim: Where's the emoji or the exclamation mark?

33:17Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, exactly. It's like, okay, what did you, you need some context. So if she replies, did you mean for that to sound short? Well, then I am giving the grace. She's giving me the grace to clarify. She's giving you the benefit of the doubt.

33:31Rachel Lim: Yeah.

33:31Jefferson Fisher: That's right. So the more often you give the benefits of the doubt in your life, the more peace of mind you're going to have. What are some ways you can do that. Get really familiar with the phrase, maybe they're having a bad day. Maybe they're hungry. Maybe they're frustrated. Maybe they're dealing with something I don't know about. Maybe they're overwhelmed. We know what those feelings are like. So the more you give them the benefit of the doubt that they did not mean that personally. They did not mean that intentionally. They didn't mean to affect you as a person. They're just maybe overwhelmed.

34:06Jefferson Fisher: So even if you were to ask, did you mean that to feel personal? What they're going to probably say is, no, no, no, not at all. No, I was just, you know, my mind, I've been busy with this and that's not how I want to come across. That's conversation. Rather than you just deciding, they meant it personal. And you know, now what? Next time I see them, I'm going to act different around them.

34:26Rachel Lim: And whenever you do catch yourself reacting, how do you quickly come back to presence? Is it mainly using your breath?

34:35Jefferson Fisher: when i find that i am reacting yes uh breath is the only thing that's really going to help regulate yourself the fastest and there's also mindsets that i have and to help me with that and it's it's this i i will say to myself there's something for me here if i'll just listen there's something for me here if i'll just listen and i and i and i say that because i truly believe I believe in every situation there is something for me to use, to have, to assist me, to help me. Whether it's a trial, whether it's a test, whether it's a conflict, there is always something to... It goes back to that mindset of you are meant to be tested.

35:20Jefferson Fisher: And it is through the testing that we grow. And there is a phrase that I love to teach and talk about because I find it so true, is that when you have that difficult conversation, when you go into it, have something to learn, not something to prove.

35:37Rachel Lim: Yeah. You know, one of the questions that I love to ask myself too when I'm going through different challenges is similar to what you shared is, you know, what is this here to teach me? and I think for me that also helps me to extract as much of the lessons that I can from whatever I'm going through to also not waste the pain so thank you for sharing all of that Jefferson and maybe my final question to you is if you could have a billboard down the streets of the biggest cities in the world New York, Tokyo what would your billboard say and why? oh that's a good one let me think take a time i know yeah i think really what's coming to mind

36:26Jefferson Fisher: for me right now is i would simply just put on the billboard choose kindness um choose the kind thing there are so many times in conversation when i didn't say the kind thing and later I regretted it. And later I'm the one that's holding the weight of what I chose to say. And when you choose the kind thing, especially when it's hard, you know that you've left it in the best place that you can. And you're not the one that's going to be left holding that baggage or that pain. And so mine would be choose the kind thing.

37:11Rachel Lim: Thank you, Jefferson. And thank you for who you are and what you do, especially for our generation. You're truly making a difference, even in this part of the world in Asia.

37:21Jefferson Fisher: Thank you so much.

37:22Rachel Lim: Thank you.