#51: Tan Kheng Hua: On Choosing Yourself Without Apology

0:00Rachel Lim: Hi everyone, welcome back to the Who We Are podcast. I'm Rachel and today I have the privilege and joy of welcoming a true icon of Singapore's stage and screen, Tan Kheng Hua. Kheng Hua is an actor and producer with a career that has shaped our cultural landscape for more than three decades. She became a household name with Pua Chukang, earning the Asian Television Award for Best Actress in Comedy. and on stage she has also anchored Landmark Productions and is a Multiple Live Theatre Awards winner. Internationally, King Hua has also brought Singapore to global audiences as Carrie Chu in Crazy Rich Asians and as Mei Li Shen across three seasons of Kung Fu.

0:45Rachel Lim: I think what moves me most in my interactions with King Hua is her steadiness, her daily habits, her discipline, the choice to stay specific and carry Singapore's texture into global rooms. This is going to be a conversation about staying power, craft and love. It is also a masterclass in how to grow a career with excellence and grace. King Hua, thank you so much for being here and welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much. It is wonderful to be here. It is such a gorgeous space. I know you are the very first guest in this new studio space And I thought, you know, it's so important to also start out strong with someone impactful.

1:28Rachel Lim: So, Kei, I can't wait to dive into your journey, your life across many facets. But if we could start by, you know, you anchoring us to the very beginning, your growing up years. And what was it like growing up? What's the memory that comes to mind? I had a beautiful childhood. Yeah, very close family. And a family that, a type of parenting style. my parents had that I actually think really worked well for both my brothers and myself. They had benign neglect when it came to their children. What does that mean? They love us. They were always there for us. Were they looking for us like helicopter parents?

2:13Not at all. They were exacting in how we kept our home, which was always a big feature in our lives. So we spent a lot of time at home. Whether or not that's generational or whether or not that's characteristic, I don't know. But I ate at home practically every single day. and we had chores, both my brothers and I. From how old? From as long as I can remember. And we loved those chores. Let me give you an example. So I was helping my mother in the kitchen from as young as I guess maybe five to seven. She cooked every meal and all our dinners would have placemats and banyi, you know, very nice empty ochu, you know, and would always have like, you know, glass of water.

3:12Even when it's just for your family? Oh, every night it's just for our family. But every night we would have, you know, placemat, plates. There would always be a soup, a meat and others, you know, and fish. And my mom is still a big cook today. And we loved, I don't know, we didn't question it. Until today, we get together every week as a family. And we call it Delvey dinners because my mom still stays in a family home. in Delphi and we would all get together and I've posted many photographs. She is still like that. When we all come and even when she eats alone, there's the placemat, the glass of water, the cutlery and there will always be a nice sort of variety of food.

4:00If you look at the way my elder brother, my younger brother and myself, the way we move around in the kitchen, right? we have that same sort of rhythm and it's very similar to how my mum is you know and we're very neat we love to be at home I love to be at home it is my safe space so that's the way I grew up you know and we travelled together on the weekends we would jiang huang

4:28Rachel Lim: like sit in a car drive to nowhere drive to Jirong and then come back and do nothing and my father would just sing in the car. You know, that's what a childhood, you know. Amazing. And who first named a strength in you, you know, or noticed something different or special or gift that you had? I don't know whether or not looking at strengths in their children was something that my parents subscribed to. And I don't say this in a bad way, you know. I think we belong to a family style and tradition where it is so much about an everyday life. And I actually think now on hindsight, that was great because nothing was demonized and nothing was glamorized.

5:31Nobody said very bad things nor very good things. And so I think for a young child, again, on hindsight, I think for a young child, you kind of grow up like an amoeba, you know. But when you grow up like an amoeba without some older person telling you you're good at something or you're bad at something, I think your brain kind of develops a stronger voice. And I discovered what I was good and bad at on my own. So I was a real jock. I mean, I guess that was like... You brought with brothers. Brothers, but that was the first thing that I knew I was good at. I see. Straight away in primary school, I could run.

6:12Very active. I still run. Very athletic and very agile. And I loved it. So I ran for school, you know, all through primary school. I was in the school team. and then after that, I was in the gymnastics team for secondary school and then I was in adventure camp. Yeah, and then when I went to university in Indiana, I used to teach aerobics, you know, like during summer. I mean, until today, I still am a jock. I love it.

6:48Rachel Lim: Yeah, I love that now that, you know, we have had a glimpse of what it's like growing up for you. I'm curious also, King, like how have your perspectives evolved over the years? Like what do you think 20 or 25-year-old you would be surprised by a belief or value that you have now? 25-year-old me. I think that 25-year-old me would be very, very surprised at how easy it has been for me to be a mother. Because when I was 25, I never thought about being a mother. I was just so busy acting. I was so in love with Singapore theatre and it was giving me so much. I was working full-time in corporate. So acting was a hobby and a passion you pursued on the side.

7:48I wouldn't call it a hobby because I think that I am one of those people that when I discovered a love for acting, it was immediately a very serious, you know, love. And I really jumped off. I was ready to jump off cliffs for it. Right. Wow. But and 25 year old me was so deeply entrenched in discovering all of those actory bits of me. right yeah and so if you were to ask me what would my 25 year old me be surprised about now that i'm 62 going to be 63 it would be that that that i would that king would have found it so easy you know motherhood yeah uh wow why did you use the word easy because you feel like it Came naturally to you?

8:46So natural. From the day that I conceived Shi An. And Shi An today is?

8:52Rachel Lim: 27. 27. She's an adult. Yes, she is. 27. She'll be 28 in March.

9:01I have never been one of those mothers that planned very much about what I should do when I am pregnant. Do you know what I mean? I didn't have a lot of rituals. I kind of went with the flow. I am a bit like that, you know. Just went with the flow. Oh, I'm pregnant. Okay, I did read. I do like to read and books helped me. But I think what really led me from one step to the other with regards to motherhood has always been instinct, you know. And at every stage of my mothering journey, it's always been like this. And now, and I guess I can talk about it because it's public knowledge, you know, my daughter is going to get married.

9:53Congratulations. Thank you. What a milestone. Yeah, and it is this new journey that I see myself on. And even then, every single day, it just feels like I am following my instincts, you know, about that. So it's always been like this with me and her, you know. I would love to unpack that more, King, because you'll make it sound easy indeed.

10:16Rachel Lim: And having interacted and seen the both of you individually and together. Firstly, I must say, King, you must be so proud of who Sian has grown up to become. She's incredibly talented, gifted. But I think beyond that, what a beautiful, grounded soul that she is. But I think what is so precious to me is the bond that both of you share. And both of you are not just close. You are incredibly close. You tell me that both of you have like secret. Secret language. Secret language. And I mean, Sian is always excited when she gets to hang out with you. And in fact, is always looking for opportunities to hang out with you.

10:54Rachel Lim: So how did you build a relationship that gets to this stage? I think I'm in a good position to talk about it now because Shian is 27. I am 62. So I guess I've known her for like 28 years considering the nine months that I carried her. And I feel that the first thing that came instinctively to me was a real curiosity about this human being in my life, in my body. And I think this is natural in me. I just am an extremely curious person. And I think that is also the reason why I really enjoy acting. It allows my curiosity to manifest itself in such a tangible way, right? I mean, because I act, I can be curious about a particular character and then I can, you know, there is a whole production team and whatever.

11:56And it becomes, you know, it goes on stage and there's a whole journey there. And I think that same characteristic was like that when Chian came into my life. I was curious about her as a fetus. I was curious about, you know, how my body is changing. I was curious about my feelings. And at that time, there was no handphone. I mean, maybe there was a

12:25Rachel Lim: handphone, but it was like, you know, it's not like a smartphone or anything like that. And I would write very much like how I write in Instagram. And I called it like, you know, you will write on the I would write on a computer. I would also type. I'm a very good typist. I mean, it's a generational thing. I'm a really good typist. Generational strength. Yes. And I would just write about, you know, write about my feelings like a journal. Like a journal. And it's so enjoyable. And then the entire birthing process, I remember it like it was yesterday because I gave birth with no epidural. but no but I studied it and it was a very very it was a choice you made it was a choice and I was very influenced by Germit's wife Melissa because she gave birth to Gabby just before me and we were all hanging out I I filmed until I was seven months you know before the season ended so everything was a curiosity to me and then this little thing came out right and every single day Even until today, I look at Chian and I'm just filled with curiosity.

13:38When she could speak, I could bring that curiosity into a dialogue with this kid and talk to her and listen to what she says. I have these little clips of her. It's funny because I seldom felt like I had to parent. I always felt like I had this gift of this thing in my life whom I would throw myself in front of a truck for but wow this thing is like so fun and so weird and this thing is now a teenager oh my god and you know and oh she's interested in this oh my goodness where did that come from and then now she's getting married And, you know, even with the choices that she's making, I find it all so interesting because I love her so, you know.

14:37Rachel Lim: Yes, I can feel that. I'm not interested in everybody. But, you know, King, it's so amazing. What is the role that you think, what do you think is your role in her life? I think the role that I have in her life is I am a person in her life who would put her number one, naturally and with ease. Please. Religious people are lucky because they grow up with a religion where they feel that there is a greater being who is there to take care of them. right? I was not raised with any religion, but I do feel that my intentionality and, you know, the fact that I think I'm a lifelong learner and I'm always so curious has instilled in me, I think, a learned way of looking at what love actually is and how it can be good and how to use it well.

15:51and I love Xi 'an more than my own life. And to experience that and to learn ways to express that.

16:02Rachel Lim: And has the relationship always been close in the different phases of her life? I would say so. Wow. I would say so. Because, Cain, you know, your work also takes you away from home and family for extended periods. Long periods of time. I was away for like every time, one season, nine months I'd be away. Exactly. So how did you still manage to keep that bond and develop and nurture it? That's a really good question. Here's how I would answer it. I am in front of her myself. I've always been. And I know myself well. So even when she was a baby, right, I would do whatever I can for her. But I have a joy.

16:51in the things that I want to do for myself. My purpose is not just, my purpose in life is not just for her. My purpose in life is also my love for my work. And I knew from an early age that I must never shortchange the richness of my life, even though I now have a child that depends on me. Okay? Because the more I shortchange myself, I think I might get into a place where I may start to feel what I call small feelings. Small as in bad, you know, resentment, bitterness. If I'm responsible but happy, I think she will be happy. But if I'm responsible and unhappy, ultimately, she's going to be unhappy too.

17:53Wow. So from a very young age, we, you know, not just me, but my ex-husband, who I'm so close to, right, Yubeng. We would go like, okay, Xi 'an, for the next two weeks, you know, I'm going to be performing. So, you know. Both together. No, I mean like, oh, we did take turns. Okay. So like, like some, we did try to, to stagger. So if I'm performing every night for two weeks, then maybe he wouldn't. Very seldom did we kind of like, oh, both of us are away. And when you don't feel guilty, I think your child understands how to share. You see, a parent, you have to. You not only have to share yourself with your child, you also have to share yourself with all sorts of other responsibilities.

18:45Because this is, you know, my art is my purpose. Don't take it away from me. That's like cutting away, you know, my arm.

18:53Rachel Lim: What did that look like for you in big and small ways to choose and to nourish yourself and to basically fill your own tank? It was easy because anything that is clear in your life makes your life easier. So when Shian came into my life, I actually thought I became a better actor because I was so much less precious about my work. So, for example, I would say, yes, I commit to being in this play, but I only want to rehearse in the daytime until six o 'clock. And then from something like 16 months or 18 months, Yubing and I put her into full-time daycare, you know. And we were very, until today, we call ourselves delinquent parents.

19:39because we were actors, right? Whenever the both of us did not have a project, we would take her out of school and we would go on a holiday. Wow. Why not? She's only in the middle school term. Yes. Let's live a rich life. When she went into formal schooling, of course we didn't do that. But we were always ourselves within reason. making decisions that is good for us as individuals, for us as a family, and for her too. So you see, I think that sort of looseness helped us to kind of situate everybody into our lifestyle, you know. And whenever we took breaks, we took her a long part, we included her, Rachel.

20:35She wasn't just in a bubble by herself and we didn't throw her with any helper or anything. We included her in our lives. I still include her in my life. I have to say though that I am by no means an irresponsible mother in the way that I know full well I am not Xi 'an's friend Okay, so what does that mean? There are many things that as an adult When she was a child I must be the responsible adult And not need from her you know, something that might cut short her childhood. As an example, let's say when she was young, if I had a bad day, right? Rather than to come home and dump my bad day on her, I would not.

21:48I had friends, very good friends, my age, Got it. Okay, where I can talk about adult issues in adult tones with very little censorship. But as your child is living in your household and growing up, don't cut short her childhood. Do you know what I mean? I know what I mean. And I think that is such a beautiful lesson also because I think sometimes we put a lot of expectations or dependencies on our children,

22:21Rachel Lim: which is not healthy at all for them as well. You know, King, can I also ask, you know, because co-parenting today is also something that I see a lot of the people around me having to navigate. Yes. And you seem to navigate it so beautifully with, as you mentioned, yeah, your ex-husband and both of you are still so close. Yes. What's the secret? Oh, what did it take? I think the secret is the same secret that I guess, you know, underlies my close relationship with Xi 'an too. And that is, you know, there is, I think, a time for everything. Okay? And the more you know yourself, the more you know the people whom you love very deeply and who affect you and who actually are very, very much a part of your life and whom you affect.

23:31You can catch that timing better than if you didn't know them. So I think when Yubeng and I got divorced, right, we had come to a point where that decision would have less attrition. Okay. Now divorce is violent in so many ways. Okay. I'm not, the most amicable divorces will still have some form of sadness, violence, regret, you know, all that sort of stuff, okay? We're only human, right? And Yves and I were married for 27 years, you know? That friendship that has always been there, that respect between him and me that exists today and may even be more today than, you know, then, right? When I'll only speak for myself, we concentrated on that you see you focus on that focus on that look at every stage of your life as a stage that you know you you you must accept and then concentrate on the things that are good between us and we've always been such good friends that friendship is the seat of our success as co-parents and i shamelessly admit we are excellent parents excellent parents amazing i am so proud of him as a father and i know he's very proud of me as a mother you know and And we both love Shi An more than our own life.

25:39What else needs to be said about co-parenting? What else needs to be said about decision-making to do with Shi An? We will make that decision which is best for her. Not so much about him, not so much about me. best what's best for her so i think that's the seat of you know that that really is the secret

26:03Rachel Lim: of co-parenting yeah yeah and and truly i think it's so beautiful to also see that mutual deep respect as human beings that first and foremost you and you being have with each other and like you said then the foundation of that friendship that strong friendship yeah when when you feel like things are getting, you know, like you can't control it, right? Train the muscle to go back to that spot. Right. Who do we love the most? Her. Immediately you calm down, right? Got it. Yeah. You know, what is the most important thing? Her well-being. You immediately make your decision based on that. And there's no way that you'll make a bad decision, you know, and because we respect each other.

26:50Rachel Lim: Yeah. Right. And you trust that. And we trust each other. And we know nobody else loves her like we do. Yeah. So, the gang. You're a team. Yeah, the WhatsApp, or rather it's Telegram now. Yeah, the group chat is called Mommy Daddy Shian. We have no spaces in between. Mommy Daddy Shian, you know. And we honour that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You have to. Yeah. You know, Kang, I also want to talk about your beautiful, long career. Yes. You didn't start out in the industry, in the acting industry. No. Tell us how you transdued on that. And at what point did you go, you know, from, you know, exploring this passion and hobby to deciding that, okay, you know what, I can maybe do this full time.

27:36Rachel Lim: You know, I think I was an amoeba. Basically, it was like, oh, you know, I'll do homework when you do homework. Oh, you know, just pass your exam. Okay, pass your exam. Okay, go to JC. Okay, you know, I couldn't get into university in Singapore. I was too stupid. So I went away, you know, but then the minute I went away, I was very clever because I don't know why. I'm just a very late developer. And I actually never did any acting in Singapore except for small little school plays or whatever. But even then, it didn't have that sort of pull on me. Yeah. And then I went away in Indiana University.

28:15I was looking for an elective, you know, the American University system.

28:20Rachel Lim: But it's great because it exposes you and gives you the opportunity. Wow. Yeah. And it wasn't even my first choice of elective because I was a jock. So I was always into movement. So I did like dance and that sort of stuff. Yeah. And I was looking for an early morning class. And then I signed up for Acting 101 from the first day. I just fell in love with it. So I took this early morning class. Nobody wanted to be in this early morning class, right? It's Indiana University. It's bloody cold, right? Yeah. Anyway, I was there in this beautiful place. It's a beautiful campus, right? And my classmates, they were all American.

29:02Of course, they loved acting because it's an 8am class. Only the people that love acting would go there. great group of classmates, wonderful teacher. You know, he was only a graduate student. So I just looked forward to it so much. So did that. And then I helped my graduate student teacher to do his final, you know, project and loved it, fell in love with it, came back to Singapore, got a great job. You know, I worked for FJ Benjamin.

29:35Rachel Lim: So my corporate years were more like, I guess, yours, you know. Worked at FG Benjamin. But very quickly, my cousin, who is Ivan Hang, you know, said, oh, so he was in the university in Singapore and he was doing law and he already was crazy about, you know, sort of directing and acting. And then he said, I'm directing this play. It's called The Waiting Room. It's going to be in LT, I don't know what, in any way. Do you want to act? And I said, yes. So I would go to work And then I just acted for him And it was in the lecture hall in NUS And I loved it It's just one of those sort of things And you love everybody Everybody's in love with it And then you're rehearsing at night You don't want to be anywhere else No matter how tired you are You still show up and you enjoy Wow What happened after that?

30:31Rachel Lim: What was the next opportunity? No, then it was just one play after another and I just worked full-time. So I was working full-time, full-time, full-time all the time. And, you know, there wasn't any professional theatre. So we would just work all day and then we would just rehearse at night. And then we didn't sleep. But who needs to sleep when you're young, right? And then we would like finish at one o 'clock in the morning and then we'll go and have supper and then we'll laugh. Some nights we would even go dancing at Niche in parties or whatever. and then you know we joy of youth yeah and i'll come back and i'll still be very responsible never late for work i'm still never late you know i'm just one of those sort of people and uh yeah and then when i was 30 i quit my job because i felt emotionally secure i got married it was so weird i i had just come back from a tour of this beautiful play called lao to for theater works in perth and i had just come back i had to take leave for it right i had just come back it was new year's eve i was newly married um i had my own home this walk up and I was seated across from Yubeng in the night and I think it was like late at night and I just told him, you know, I can see myself in this job for the rest of my life because I loved my job and I was good at it, okay?

32:06And my boss, Jerry, you know, Razzle, he's still such a close friend today and Kim Tiong from FG Benjamin, I mean, You know, but I wanted to feel what it was like to wake up and just do acting the whole day. For living. The whole day. I didn't even think about it. There's no such thing as living. Rachel, I'm 62 years old. That was like so long ago. There wasn't even English language drama television. But I tell you, my feng shui sometimes is just very, very good. So then I told him I think I'm going to quit my job And of course he was supported And my family is very like I told you benign neglect They're like Sure, quit your job No problem What was Yubing doing then?

32:54Was he also an actor? Yes He was full-time with TheatreWorks Okay He was full-time with TheatreWorks Right But he had studied theatre I got a Bachelor of Science Right So anyway So I told him I think I'm going to quit my job But I had a lot of money in the bank Because I had a full-time job I'm not a shopper I'm not a Michelin star restaurant, whatever. So you had a lot of savings. So I had a lot of savings because we never went out. I don't drink, so we never went out. Every day we are just in the theatre. So that gave you the opportunity to then take a risk in that sense. In a sense, it was like, oh, just take a break from full-time job.

33:35And so it was weird because I gave myself like two years. The first seven months was slightly uncomfortable. But Tanks was great. They just hired me on a retainer basis. So I even helped them open up. What was your role? So when I was working at Tanks, I was in charge of public affairs, marketing services. Amazing. I helped them. So I worked on Tanks Studios concept. And then we opened up Tanks Studio in Scots. And then when I was there, I helped them open up Tanks Studio at Takashimaya. Do you remember those days? My goodness. And then, okay, after that, I quit. They signed me a retainer. So I was very happy.

34:19I was working with them kind of part-time. I helped them open up Tank Studio in Star Hill in KL. All these people are still my friends. And all the press and I had so much fun. So I was safe for the first seven months. But after seven months, a lot of acting jobs just started happening. And then, you know, and then...

34:42Rachel Lim: You have to make a choice too. No need to make a choice. I made a choice already then. I made a choice already and I'm one of those sort of people. Now you don't look back now? Yeah, because I always thought to myself, if you feel like going back to work, I'm sure you can just go back to work. Yeah, no problem. You know, I don't have that sort of like, oh, I must be CEO by, ah, no lah, you know. And I have a very frugal lifestyle. Every morning I'm not in, I'm in the company now. I love that you follow your heart and your joy and where your spirit lets you. You know, King, one of the things that I really admire about you is your staying power.

35:18Rachel Lim: And how I would define staying power is the capacity to deliver honest, excellent work over a long period of time through different seasons and different pressures. And it is not intensity and hype, it's consistency. How do you think you've gotten to where you are today? You just mentioned the word consistency. I'm a big believer of consistency. Not just in my acting, but in my health, my daily habits, you know, in how I want to be perceived. Even in how I choose my clothes, you know. Yeah. Or how I do my hair or, you know, whatever. How I treat, you know, the people who are very close to me. I'm a big believer of consistency.

36:21And this is just a natural thing for me. Even when I was young, I think I've always been like this. So let's talk about consistency with regards to my profession. I've always had this rule. and Eubeng can attest to it because he was of course there at the beginning of my acting career and that is I make my decisions as to accepting jobs that come my way and accepting projects that come my way I make my decisions with as little ego as possible What does that mean? Okay. I don't want to accept a job if I feel nothing for the job, but let's say it's very good for my career. I know that the second day I'm on that job, I will hate it.

37:28And I'm just one of those sort of people. I cannot do anything that I hate. Actually, Sister Maria, who was my form teacher in Catholic Junior College, she wrote that in my testimonial. She said, Tan King Hwa can only do things that she's interested in. Interested in, not good at. Okay? I mean, as long as I'm interested in it, I will do it. As opposed to, I'm only going to do it because I know I'm good at it. No. So like, that's why I do a lot of very weird things. I mean, like I produce and, you know, whatever. You know, and you're jumping off these cliffs, even though you don't know if you're going to be any good at it.

38:13And I feel that consistently going back to that has given me my longevity. It's really not very thought through, you know. I'm not very studious, you know, when it comes to that. I literally am like, oh, this sounds like fun. Even if it's like, oh, podcast, fun.

38:32Rachel Lim: Okay, I'll just do it, you know. So you follow your whole body, yes. Yes, yes, yes. And I'm like that when I shop. Oh, I like this t-shirt. Oh, three colours. I'm just like this. I love it in all aspects of your life. And it really helps. It really helps that your decision making is based on the same sort of value system. Because when you follow your joy, as opposed to follow your ego or follow your fear, you are always taken care of. The projects have failed many, many times. But I was joyous through it. And you counted as success. Yes. No. Honestly, I try not to use the words failure and success.

39:20Maybe they were not as good as you had hoped for them to be, right? And many, many, many of my projects were not as good as I had hoped them to be. But did I enjoy it? Oh, yes, I did. And this is just my character, consistency. Consistency doesn't mean, oh, you did Crazy Rich Asians. It was a big Hollywood hit. I must be consistent in all the hits. I must be, no. That's not what I mean by consistency. consistency to me is my consistent way of coming back to oh is this project gonna be fun you know so then if the answer is yes yes i'll do it and then let's see where it goes you know so good so

40:11Rachel Lim: i think that really helps what was it like you know um filming i mean some of the hits that you're so known for like Poichu Kang, Crazy Rich Asians and so much more. You know, Poichu Kang was 11 years of my life. And Poichu Kang really was such an important time in my life. First of all, you know, filming then was very different from filming now because we filmed in front of a live studio audience. That's right. What does that mean? when you're performing live in front of an audience, the relationship between all the actors, right? No, not characters, the actors. We depend on each other so much because it's you and me.

40:59Rachel Lim: To carry each other and carry the scene. Because there's an audience that's looking at us. You know, we must really learn how to give and receive and react and respond and be generous, you know. and the Poc Chukang family was so close and we had so much fun together. We all like, you know, we were so playful and, you know, we loved each other and our crew loved us and it went on for so long and it was such an important part of so many people's viewing life. Yes. Not just here in Singapore, but in Malaysia. So can you imagine 11 years of that beautiful feeling, right? So that really changes how you see yourself as a performer.

41:57Po Chukang taught me that I can make a life out of one of the biggest loves of my life, which is acting.

42:10Rachel Lim: And what was it like for Crazy Rich Asians at a much later season of your journey as well? So, you know, when I audition, you know, nowadays, right, I like to say, every time I audition, I still audition a lot, okay? because my reps will always, I mean, every month I will do at least four, three or four self-tapes, okay? Wow. When I'm here, when I'm there, sometimes I will... Do it live. I will do it, yeah. In person. They call it in the room. In the room. Yeah. Okay. Nowadays, I always tell myself, if it's yours, it's yours. If it's not yours, it's not yours. But every audition that I do and every audition tape that I submit, I must be proud of it.

42:54When I look at it, I only have one expectation of myself. When I look at it, I must think, okay, I'm proud of it. Send. Once I send, I tell you I just changed my clothes, whatever, I go to the Kopitiam and then I just forget all about it. Yeah. Because I have learned what's the use. What's the use of trying too hard? What's the use of second guessing? You know, you don't know what the casting people are looking for, right? If it's yours, it's yours. And I know enough of myself to know that if I'm okay with my audition tape or if I walk out of the audition room feeling somewhat okay about it, then it must be okay lah.

43:36And then everything else is out of your control. And if it's out of your control, then don't think too much about it anymore. Just go and carry on with your life. That's kind of how I feel. So when the audition for Crazy Rich came, it's like, sure, same attitude. Went there, did the audition, granted the role I knew suited me. Okay? I knew it suited me. Yes. Okay. Then I did the first audition. It was just on take. Okay? And then very quickly after that, I was told John M. Chu is coming. Okay? Then I was like, okay, sure. then I would audition in front of John M. Chu and they were really, really nice.

44:19And I felt in my heart, it was a good audition. By the time I walked to my car, I got a call from Ling, my then manager. No, she just said, I just want to say they liked you. Then I said, great. Okay, great. Put it out of my head. And then it just came. And when I was filming it, it was weird. I always told myself, you do your best, but, you know, film, all your scenes, it's not guaranteed that it's going to be in the movie. I see. So you just do your best. It was great. It was so fun. You know, Michelle Yeoh, so nice. And then I played like her nemesis, Ma Jong-si. So cool, so fun. Everybody is great.

45:06And then, who knew it would be

45:10Rachel Lim: what it was. So I just followed my joy. And then we were the first people that STB brought over to walk the red carpet in LA. And even when we were in LA, I remember John Panotti, one of the producers, telling us, well, this weekend will tell, you know, I mean, there has been a lot of good buzz, but this weekend will tell whether this movie, which has an all Asian cast, you know, which is quite unusual for Hollywood, right? It varies. Will be successful. Yeah. Then it just became what it is. I mean, I'm sitting here on the other side listening to you and at this stage of your life, your life is even more exciting.

45:54It's just so weird. I'm telling you, and it's a mixture of like, it's a mixture of luck because, I mean... But you're prepared when the opportunities or luck come. Yes, I'm prepared enough. You're prepared enough. And I'm relaxed in my brain enough, you know, to be able to just do these things without too much stress. So like, for example, people always ask me, is it very hard to like go to LA for a while? And I said no, because, okay, I just worked it out financially. Okay, I had this other property that I rented out. In Singapore. In Singapore, okay. and I just told myself, I'll just use that rental money for my monthly expenses in LA.

46:47I will not go beyond this. It will pay for my rent and my food and I'm a very simple liver of life, okay?

46:56Rachel Lim: Then that's what I did. You know, over the years, King, what have you subtracted from your life that you realise that, hey, I don't miss it? After subtracting it? It's been a hard lesson, right? But I think some hard lessons has made me subtract doing anything that in any way I will regret or saying anything that in any way will make me regret. I would say that is a big change so I really really really have not done anything that I would regret or said anything that I would regret for a very very long time but you know when you're younger or when you when life has lessons yeah life just has lessons right but i can i guess proudly say that i have learned from some of the hard lessons and that um you know yeah i i always want to do better and be better.

48:18Yeah.

48:19Rachel Lim: Yeah. What goes through your mind when you go through a very challenging situation or time? I think when I'm going through a very challenging situation, situation, the first thing that I would do is to go into an honesty cave. So basically that cave always has one person in it, which is me, right? And then I will have that hard conversation with myself about all the good things or the bad things and admit it to myself first and foremost. Just admit it to yourself that I feel, you know, jealous or I feel, you know, all the bad feelings, right? And just admit it to yourself first. I think I do that.

49:31and then I think I try to think of what is the next step, not the final step.

49:45Rachel Lim: Just the next step. Just the next step, you know. And the next step can be a variety of things, right? I mean, I don't know. I'm a big believer of therapy nowadays. days I found my therapist Claudette she's French Canadian and you know when I was in Canada the production company the film production company that produces Kung Fu the CW I mean they're a big company right yeah so you know in North America human resource welfare very important right so there was more than enough budget for people to explore therapy to help them it's a very mature industry they they know the challenges that people have i mean everybody left their families behind and went there to film that's a part of life as an actor.

50:44So nowadays, challenging periods of my life, a lot of times I will text Claudette, whether or not I'm near her or far away. Hey Claudette, can we have a session? I'm a firm believer of that. Yeah. I would rather talk to my therapist than some of my close friends because sometimes I really, really, most of the time in challenging moments, I really need a non-emotional, objective point of view. Yeah.

51:21Rachel Lim: I love that you're so vocal and open about this. It's still a taboo in Singapore. It's not a taboo, but people are a lot more cautious, you know, to think, oh, you go for therapy, something must be wrong with you. So what would you say to that? Why do you think therapy is important for someone's life? You have a responsibility to try and build, to try and gather the tools that will help you be better and do better. And it's not just for yourself, you know. Everybody who loves you is affected by your decision making. so if you love your mother if you love your friend if you love your husband you love your boyfriend you love your kids whatever you know you have a responsibility to learn the tools just learn it look some people learn fast some people are geniuses some people are slow some people develop later everybody has their own timing right Let's try to be non-judgmental about timing.

52:40But at some point, if what you are doing is hurting yourself or hurting other people, you have a responsibility to try not to do that.

52:52Rachel Lim: To be better. Joy is free, guys. Yes. Happiness is free. Yes. You know? I think like so many times, you know, we don't think twice when we have to send our cars for servicing and things like that. But when it comes to working on ourselves and spending on upgrading our internal systems, mentally, emotionally, we think that, oh, you know, it's too expensive. It takes up too much time, it's too painful. But exactly like what you said, I do think that when we learn the tools and become better and stronger, the people around us get to enjoy and benefit from a better version of ourselves as a leader, as a parent, as a spouse, as a partner, as a friend.

53:32That's right. Yeah. And I have to say this, you know, I don't glamorize nor demonize therapy. So what does that mean? It's not like when I have a problem, I go to her. sometimes I just want to talk okay and I don't credit her for every good thing that I'm doing you know I mean yeah she's not a be all or end all and she's not there to solve every single problem but she is there to help me but the person that can really help me the most is

54:07Rachel Lim: really myself yeah that's right yeah one of the key things that really struck me is what amazing growth mindset you have and it's so inspiring it's interesting right yeah growth mindset i guess for me the word is look my curiosity is still there i'm still so curious about so many things you know i'm not like look we we are we are only done when we're dead you know we're only done when we're dead and um yeah and i i want to choose my how i spend my time well yeah you see um absolutely so that's kind of how i live like you know day to day if you want to ask you okay what are three more tools you have in life that you can share with all of us easy one is be better which actually came from Yubing.

55:06Yeah, because I remember, you know, I was talking to him about something. It was during a challenging time when I asked him, what do you think I should do? And I remember he said, be better, right? And it just really rung through with me. So I use this, I've answered this question many times and be better. And then recently, being better is not good enough. Do better right because put it into an action yeah right yeah so do better right and then i guess the last one three things the last one it would be i choose to live every day guided by how I know I want to die. And I actually said this to Pat Law, our good friend.

56:03And some years ago, this really sort of was a light bulb in my head because I remember my brain was monkey brain and I had a lot of noise. And then suddenly I just thought to myself, if I took away everything, I'm just going to die in the next second. Who do I want around me? Well, who I want around me will be this person, this man and this person. And you know what? These three people, I know that they will be there. So if you know that those three things, those three people that matter most, yeah, in the last moment of your life will be there in the last moment of your life, then actually, you don't need anything else.

56:47and you know and I feel that frees your mind from wanting a lot of things

56:54Rachel Lim: and can you know for someone who's listening to you and is also in the thick of building a career building a family holding relationships close what would you say to him or her? to this other person yes wow that's a tough one okay say it to me okay If it's easier. It is easier if I say it to you. I would say, and I can feel, that you work so hard. That you work so hard.

57:41and whilst I'm a big believer of hard work, I also want every single day of your life to have a sublime moment of absolute nothingness. You know, because I think that I guess at 62, you know, those moments where it's just nothing but peaceful. Nothing much is happening. There's nothing much for you to do. It really is hard, hard to come by. Yeah. you know and I hope you get those sublime moments of peaceful nothingness you know yeah

58:47Rachel Lim: thank you that was so beautiful thank you so much King Ho for saying yes to coming on the show for sharing your life your snippets of your life your journey your career your wisdom your lessons we are so much better for it And I take away so much from our conversation and I cannot wait for the world to hear this from you. So for those of us who want to continue following you and your journey. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Please follow me on Instagram. Yes. I love my Instagram. At King Hwa. K-H-E-N-G. H-U-A. Yes. And what else are you excited about looking forward to in the new year? I think that the obvious one is she un-getting married.

59:37Yeah. I have some work that I am very, very excited about. I am waiting for the final confirmations. And my Instagram is the best place to catch up on.

59:54Rachel Lim: Thank you, Kay. Thank you, Rachel. King that was so good. So fun, so fun.