#52: 450 People Depending on Her — Then She Lost Her Job

0:00Rachel Lim: Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Who We Are podcast. Today, I am joined by Jennifer Bale. Jennifer has spent her career in senior global leadership roles, building brands and leading teams across complex, fast-moving environments. What drew me to her wasn't just what she's done and what she's achieved, but it was also how she seems to have led with quiet confidence, thoughtfulness, and a long-term view that feels increasingly rare. In this episode, we're going to talk about what matters far less than we think it does, how our definition of success changes as responsibility grows, and what leadership demands of us internally long before it shows up externally.

0:40Rachel Lim: We will also explore her decision-making process, especially when certainty is unavailable, the identities we have to let go of as we evolve, and perhaps, you know, even what age and experience can soften, clarify, and strengthen in us over time. This is a conversation for anyone navigating change, holding responsibility, or questioning what success means in this next season of life. Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on and welcome to the show. Thank you, Rachel. It's great to be here. It's an absolute honour. Thank you. Likewise. So for those of us who may not be as familiar with you and your journey, could you give us an introduction and also perhaps summary of your journey and your career so far?

1:20I think I've had an unlikely path to my career. You know, leaving school, I started work straight away in a corporate gig, which I loved. I ended up getting married and having a child very early, followed by a quick divorce. And it was at that that I had this pivotal moment of, okay, I'm going to go and do something new. Had an opportunity to start a business, which is actually where I met my second husband, or I like to call him my current husband. Yes. And ran a small business for about 15 years and then had an opportunity to go back into corporate life and have done many, many different roles, leading local teams, Australia teams, ANZ teams, and then that's brought into more regional teams across Asia, Pacific, Japan, and four years ago moving to Singapore.

2:14So it's been a bit of a journey and an unlikely path, I think, for what most people would call an unlikely path.

2:22Rachel Lim: Indeed, because it's been like a 30-year journey. But I'm also curious to understand, Jennifer, you know, throughout this 30-year journey, what is it that you now see and understand that perhaps you couldn't in the thick or in the middle of it? I think, you know, when you're younger starting a career, we're all so ambitious. You know, we strive for these big things and we think when I'm there, I will have made it. When I get here, I will have made it. And the reality is, is I don't think we ever make it. Because the goalpost keeps getting further. But they change over time. Priorities change and evolve.

2:55And so I find now that I'm still ambitious and I'm still driven, but I'm probably driven for different reasons or to achieve different goals. And I think that that's one thing that when I speak to different people, it's like enjoy this season. because you'll look back at that and think, I wish I'd taken a few more moments to enjoy that part versus be thinking about the next thing. And so the things that I think I wish I would have savoured that a bit more was probably during the times where it was challenging or we were in a struggle, I wish I'd sort of taken a bit more time to sit still with it versus continue to run at it.

3:34And I think that's the, you know, the older gen now looks back at that thinking, if I had just sat with that a little bit longer.

3:43Rachel Lim: Sat through the tough season. Yeah, then I think I probably would have made different decisions and maybe better decisions than just thinking that hard work and powering through would be the answer. Tell us more. For example, what do you think sitting through a tough season looks like? So I think we had many times now we have ups and downs. Our business was very cyclical. So there were times when business was tough. It wasn't about the volume of work. It was around cash flow. And so there were many times where it was just like overwhelming. And so you did instinctively what you thought you needed to do versus sit back and think, okay, I've got a limited amount of cash right now.

4:29I need to, I've got all of these commitments. What's the right thing to do? So rather than pretending that everything's going to be okay, maybe go and have conversations with different stakeholders and say, hey, we're in this moment. This is the path that I see, but I need your help right now. I don't think I was good at asking for help. And I think that as I've got older, I'm very comfortable saying, hey, Rachel, I'm at this situation. I would appreciate your advice and maybe a little bit of assistance as I navigate my way through. This is a path, but I'm open to other ideas. I think that's the difference.

5:09The 25-year-old Jen versus the 50s Jen. Yeah. Yeah, I don't have any issues asking for help now. Amazing.

5:18Rachel Lim: And you wish that you had done that earlier. What do you think hold most of us back from asking for help? I think it's fear of looking like you haven't got it. Exactly. And particularly as a young woman running my own show, I was the outlier. In a very male-dominated old industry, I was an outlier. So I felt like if I asked for help, then it's almost proof that I'm a failure. and whereas now I reflect back and think no like every business owner goes through the ups and the downs it's not a reflection of me personally and I think that's the that's that's the reflection back is that you know I think I was you know scared of looking like I had failed whereas I really wasn't I was just navigating a tough time yeah and you know you talked earlier also about decision making.

6:13Rachel Lim: And I want to dive deeper into that and peel the layers into how you make decisions, especially when there's so much uncertainty. There are so many times where data is incomplete. We don't always have a clear path to what the next step is. But as leaders, we have to make a call. What does that look like for you? And what do you rely on? So I start from a position of what worked for me 10 years ago is maybe not going to work for me today. But there's a couple of things that I do hang on to. And one of them is that you have to be calm in the decision-making moment. Because if you're not, and you just react, then you're not going to get a good outcome for anyone.

6:53And in fact, it'd be quite detrimental. And so I think sometimes there's this pressure to respond and to act, when actually the pressure should be on making the right decision. Because you're never going to be making the wrong decision when you're thinking about what's the right outcome. So when I first moved to Singapore, I moved over with a different organization to do an APJ role that I'd been doing from Melbourne in Australia. And my boss calls me, I'd been in Singapore for maybe four weeks at this point in time. My worldly possessions were in a cargo ship on their way to Singapore. And my boss calls me, and says, hey, Jen, I've got something to share with you and it's really tough.

7:43And I was like, okay. And he said, well, the role that you're coming to Singapore for globally, they've eliminated that role and I don't have another role for you right now. I said, okay, that's not great. And he said, so we'll catch up later today, but I needed you to hear this now, but we'll talk later today. He said, but I want you to think about if you want to move back to Australia. And I said, thank you. I've made a commitment to be in Singapore. I still believe in the company but first things first, I have to think about what this means for my team. And he said, okay. So I was on the way to a customer meeting.

8:28How big was your team then? 450 people. and so I went on with the customer meeting and it was a negotiation meeting I finished the negotiation meeting with the team I had two of my team members there finalized the the opportunity and we wrapped that up I got in a grab went back to the service department because I wasn't even in our own house yet that we hadn't you know which we signed a lease on I called my husband and he was like, wow. I said, but don't panic. It's okay. I've got this. So then I had a conversation with my boss. We met later in the day and I said, I've got six weeks to work out what I'm doing with my team because I was moving them into different parts of the business because it was my role that was eliminated, not everyone else's.

9:18I just wanted to map them differently in the organization. So while I work on that and make sure that everyone lands in the right place, let's figure out what my next role is. And he said, that's exactly what I was going to suggest. And then I got an even better job as a result of that. So then I was leading global account in the same company. And so, and I, so I think, you know, I think being calm in that storm and focusing on other people actually is what grounds you to then think about what's right for you. And I had faith in my boss that he had my back and he knew my worth and value because he hadn't put all this investment in moving me and my family to Singapore for nothing.

10:03And so I wanted to demonstrate to him that even in tough times, I could make good decisions and continue to run the business.

10:09Rachel Lim: Looking back, how did you eventually develop to a point that you have this equanimity where, you know, indeed you're right in the middle of a storm. You're okay. You're composed. You're calm. You're focused. And I do believe that played a big part into what brought you into your next season, which also was a very successful season. So I think throughout my career, I've been very fortunate to have amazing mentors. and I now refer to them as my personal board of directors. Yeah. And one of my earliest mentors said to me, you're incredibly passionate about what you do, Jen, and people can sometimes confuse your passion with aggression.

10:55So that's something to be mindful of. He said the second thing is don't always respond with the first thing that comes to mind. pause count to three and um very wise words and so I think when I got that call to say hey Jen slight hiccup your role's been eliminated my first instinct was of course like you know shocked to your horse you know you sort of but I counted to three and thought okay so what should I do now? Well, first of all, I've got to go to this customer meeting and do that. Second of all, I've got to think about what it means for my team. And that was the first thing. This is, I'm impacting 450 people's lives and livelihoods.

11:46That has to take a priority. I'll figure me out after that. So I think taking that pause gave me enough time to prioritize what I needed to do at that moment.

11:58Rachel Lim: You know, I think one of the reasons, like you shared earlier, is you have that security in your boss and your leader that you would be taken care of because he sees you for what you are and who you are. And I think that, to me, is a great example of leadership and what it's really about. And Jen, you have been a leader for decades, taking care of teams from the size of 10 to 500. What are your biggest leadership lessons or what do you really believe in being a leader? So I think being a leader, you have a responsibility for others first and foremost. I think some people get caught up in the title, you know, I'm a leader because I'm a VP of whatever, versus actually understanding the responsibility that you have as a leader is actually not about yourself.

12:50It's about two things. One, it's about delivering an outcome for your company. They're paying you to get to an outcome. The second of all is you've got a responsibility to your team for them to be as successful as possible so that you can be successful, so that you're delivering the outcome to the company. And I think often people forget that it's not about me, you know, it really isn't. If I make it about my team and what ticks for them, what does success look like for them. And it's not a one size fits all. Not everyone is motivated by money. A lot of people are motivated by recognition. A lot of people are motivated by other opportunities, doing something for this period of time because they know that they're on a, you know, it's a bridge to something else.

13:39So if you understand where people are at and what success looks like for them, then how can I help them to be successful? Then by virtue of their success, I will be successful and I will deliver the outcome for my company.

13:52Rachel Lim: It really reminded me also of what Jack Ma of Alibaba said. He always says that his philosophy is that as an organisation and as leaders, if we take care of our people, the people will take care of the profits and the profits will take care of the stakeholders. And so always focusing on the people, the teams, ensuring that they are in the right seats of the bars, ensuring that they have a path for progress, ensuring that they're given feedback so that they can learn and grow. I want to also double tap into what you spoke about a little bit earlier on mentorship and how mentors have really through the years shaped you into who you are today.

14:28Rachel Lim: Could you tell us a little bit more about that? How you sought out mentors, how you found them, how you developed those relationships? And yeah, because I think it's a two-way relationship. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think, and I think that's probably for a lot of a lot of people that don't get that mentorship is a two-way conversation. Yes. And as a mentee, you have to be very prepared. Exactly. And not just show up to a conversation with nothing. And so, and I sort of, I think mentorship and coaching have different purposes, but the same thing applies. If you go to a coach and you don't have anything prepared, there's nothing on your list to talk about because you just want to hear something, well, then they're not, you know, I pull them up on that pretty quickly.

15:17So it's like, I'm here for you. So if you can't be bothered to invest some time to prepare for this conversation, then we should, we, you know, we're not going to do it. It's not going to work. And so, so I think it's the, it's the same thing when I prepare for a conversation with a mentor and how I choose mentors. It depends on what I'm doing at different times. So what did it start first with? He was my boss and I'd known Tony for some time because I'd been in the printing industry. And so at some stage, I think I might've bought something from him or he was a leader of a team. I can't remember exactly, but I've known him for a long time.

15:54Then he became my manager. And he's probably one of the best managers that I had in my career. So he's been my, you know, we have a, um, every four to six weeks we catch up and sometimes it's, Hey Tony, I just want to have a personal chat today. Cause I just need to decompress about some stuff and whatever's going to flow out of my mouth. I just need to get, get out. Sometimes I prepare a, Hey, this is what I'm working on right now. I've got a real, you know, this is a business problem that I'm dealing with. Um, or I'm in a customer negotiation and I think I'm in a bit of a stalemate and I might've backed myself into a corner.

16:32So can you help me think about this a little bit differently? And so he's, and he's a great role player. So we'll do role plays. Amazing. So, you know, you get to practice it. Yeah.

16:42Rachel Lim: So what has been the most valuable thing you have gained from your mentorship relationship with Tony? I think he's not afraid in telling me how it is and I'm a very direct communicator um and obviously I have to uh moderate that depending on who I'm speaking to and if I look after a you know team in Japan I've got to be mindful of that but you know it's very different things right but when I'm with Tony I can be me and and he knows that the best way to get through to me is with direct feedback and so and I think that's having someone that's not afraid to hold up a mirror and say, do you see this?

17:23Yeah. Is confronting and it's uncomfortable, but it's very powerful.

17:27Rachel Lim: I think what I love and respect also because, Jen, it is not easy or it actually is quite uncomfortable to seek out relationships like this, which I also think is so important, especially as leaders. So many times we unintentionally surround ourselves or find ourselves in an echo chamber where people would tend to just agree with what you're saying or tell you what they think you want to hear versus saying versus what we really need to hear or even to call us out on certain things you know and i think that is so precious that also is that like you say check and reflection on an imbalance that we as leaders need so much in your in your journey when you look back so far jen what do you think matters to you now much more than it did before and also what matters to you now much less than it did before?

18:21I think when I was younger, you know, you're sort of chasing titles and status and you want to get further up. And I think that's just a natural part of being ambitious and driven. And I am an ambitious and driven woman. I've come to terms with that now after all the issues. It's a great trait. So I think now it's less about the title and it's more around the fulfillment of my work. And I'm a lot more attached to purpose than I am with, you know, the size of my team or how many billions of dollars. Or it's like, am I doing something that's meaningful, impactful, has purpose that I can get excited about?

19:07That's more important to me now.

19:09Rachel Lim: Do you think it's a live stitch thing or an environment thing? I think it's both. I think you sort of reach a point in time when you realise this is as good as it's going to get and I'm enough. And I say that to three of my four kids that are girls and I say that to them all the time. Yeah. You are enough. And don't ever try to be something that someone else says that you should be. You are you and you are perfectly imperfect and you are enough. How has motherhood changed you and your life? Jen, by the way, I couldn't believe when you told me that you're a mum of four and your youngest just turned 18.

19:47Rachel Lim: Tell us your secrets. But also, how has motherhood changed you? I think when you become a mum, it changes you because a part of you is living on the outside of you. Part of you, for your case. Yeah. I was very young when I had my first, a bit older when I had the next three. So, yeah. So Nathan's nearly 36. Savannah's nearly 25. Sarah's just turned 22 and Sienna is 18. Beautiful. Tell us. So I think you become a lot more compassionate, I think, when you're a mum. and I think you see things through your children's eyes sometimes. Like they will point out something that you might have missed and you go, wow, yeah.

20:39So they have a habit of bringing you back to a moment, you know, or to a, you know. And mother blessing. Yeah, and they are and they truly are. And I'm super proud of my kids for all different reasons. They're all, you know, doing different things. Yeah. Wow. My three girls are very close. You know, they live in each other's pockets, although they live all around the world. So Savannah's in London, Sarah's in Melbourne, although she's moving to London, and Sienna's here in Singapore up until she goes to university later this year. And then I'll be an empty nester then.

21:15Rachel Lim: But how were you able to nurture this and this culture and this bond in the family? I think, you know, my husband and I have a great relationship. and I think that's always the foundation yeah so I think our foundation as a family is really strong and I think um uh Steve and I were business partners then we were you know now we're you know married amazing so you're tested on all fronts I think so I think we we've we've tested that many times um but we've got a partnership approach to our life and you know we co-parent and, you know, we support our children doing different things at different times and our life is invested in our children as well.

22:03So it's not just about our own personal success. You don't lose yourself. Yeah, it's about making sure that they get the opportunities that we can afford to give them because of the life that we have. But also I think, you know, having a working mother I think is a good thing. I think particularly for girls to grow up seeing a working mother and that, you know, it is a way, there is a way to balance. But the trick is not trying to do it all. And I think this is probably the number one question I get, is how do you do it all? And the simple answer is I don't. I've outsourced whatever I could that is it doesn't matter whether I do it or not, right?

22:48So cleaning, gardening, house maintenance, ironing, so that I can be there as a parent, not just being at home whilst doing all of those things isn't actually being a parent. Do you, while raising kids and building your career, do you ever struggle with mom guilt or question yourself like, oh, you know, is this worth it? Am I spending my time in the right place? And I ask this also because I have two very young kids, Oliver and Kira.

23:20Rachel Lim: They are five and two respectively. And like you, I also spend most of my days at work. And I'm also very privileged where my husband can manage his own time with his work and is more present with them, especially in the day. and sometimes I catch myself and find myself asking because, you know, especially at this age, there were a couple of incidents where when they fell and they were hurting and they immediately cried out for daddy, you know, even though when I was there as well. And I try not to take it personally, but it just reminds myself, like, it is a choice that I have made. I think every mum feels mum guilt.

24:05but I also think that if your kids are happy to call for daddy when they get hurt that's amazing because I know with our kids that they could they know they can call either of us and we will you know we will respond that's a good thing to have because we want to raise children that are strong independent yeah capable you know young human beings are going to go out and conquer the world right um if if they have a lot of people doing things for them and they're over-reliant on one versus the other I don't think that that's a good foundation so the foundation that I think we're setting having both parents working doing different things is that we're actually shaping our family that anything is possible and that at the most important moments you are there.

25:03And so I've always prioritized things like swimming carnivals, school performances, parent-teacher interviews. I'm there for the important moments. And as your children get older and as my kids got older, I would negotiate with them what was the, you know, if there were several things coming up, which was the most important things that they wanted me to be at. And they would say, oh, don't worry about coming to that. That's just, you know, a school assembly. I'm going to get an award. Don't worry about that because it's really nothing. I actually want you to be at my... So you disguise and talk through with it.

25:41Yeah, so then you sort of, you're decision-making together. And they also then understand that life is about different priorities at different times. Or if I couldn't attend something, I would explain to them why. You know, I'm going to be here. I'm doing that because it's really important for me to be there because of this, but dad's going to be there. Your grandmother's going to be that way, you know, but you know, I've organized this other crew of people that are going to be there to support you. They're still support. You spoke earlier also about out of your four kids with three daughters

26:13Rachel Lim: and you remind it and tell them every day that they're in there. Tell us more about that. Why is it so important? I think when I was growing up as a teenager, I could go out and do stuff and it wasn't ever filmed or photographed and put into the world. For strangers to see. Yeah, for people to make comments about, you know, whether they liked my neon whatever, you know, or my big hair. at the, you know, it was, you know, I can look back at the photos and go, you know. And laugh about it. Yeah, exactly. Laugh about it. Whereas I think my girls have been at that age where social media was really prevalent and present and really they could get sucked into it very easily.

27:01And so I think for years they've had scrutiny on their lives that has not necessarily been a great place for young women. No, not at all. And so, and they're comparing themselves, you know, with bodies or, you know, the hair, their whatever.

27:18Rachel Lim: Especially when they're developing their own self-esteem, confidence. And so, so it's difficult to say, well, don't go on social media. So we obviously moderate social media or have done. The girls are now very good at self-moderating and they take themselves off of platforms. They don't, you know, they're very, very good at that. How do you get there? Just by, you know, sometimes you've just got to, it's that reflecting back, you know, hey, did you, you know, is this really what, you know, what you want to be out there doing or saying, you know, is this, if you think about, and as they've got older and they're thinking about university, then, you know, career goals.

27:54It's like if your, you know, future employer was looking at your digital history, what would they find? So I think it just, it gives them a moderation that isn't me saying don't do this, it's just giving them something, a lens to think through, to look through that they might not have considered. And I think as they've got older, they've realised that social media can be quite detrimental to young women and, you know, leads to a whole lot of issues around, you know, body image, you know, am I good enough? And so that's when I say you are enough, you are, you know, you've been made perfectly imperfect and that we're all a work in progress, you know, and so my phrase that I use a lot with them as they're going, it's like progress over perfection.

28:43You've got to think about what progress you've made.

28:45Rachel Lim: I love that. And think about things through a lens of gratitude. So I talk a lot with my daughters in particular around gratitude and, you know, be thinking about what's good in their world. When they were very young, I started a conversation called Sparkly Moments. Tell me. We would sit around the dinner table every night. and I'm very good at protecting my time for things like family dinners. So, and I still do to this day while Sienna's home, we have a, we sit around the table and I protect that time. Um, and we have a sparkly moment. So what was your sparkly moment today? And I started phrasing it as a sparkly moment versus how was your day?

29:29Uh, and you'll find this out as your kids get older, Rachel, is that they'll say good or, you know, or they'll find something negative to talk about and say, Like, oh, you know, such and such did this, you know, da, da, da. And so I thought, how can I frame this in a way that they're going to think about what was the good thing that happened today? So right from when they were little, we talked about sparkly moments. And so we all went around the table and we talked about our sparkly moments.

29:53Rachel Lim: So daddy, mommy. We all did. And kids, wow. And so I'd give them, you know, a five-minute heads up. Okay, in five minutes we're going to start talking about. So they're going to start thinking. So they're going to start thinking about. So it gave them time to pause, reflect, and think about what was their sparkly moment today. And sometimes one of the girls would say, I haven't got a sparkly moment today. You know, I've had a really tough day. It's like, okay, did you want to talk about it? Do you want to talk about it over dinner with everyone here or do you want to talk later? And then they would make that decision as to if they wanted to share or not.

30:27But inevitably, nine times out of 10, they found something sparkly to talk about.

30:31Rachel Lim: What muscle were you trying to train and what were you doing? Gratitude. I was literally trying to, and it was as much for myself as it was for them, to be brutally honest. And often I learned things and then I teach them because it's my way of instilling a habit is, you know, teach others. Yeah. Leadership at home. They were my willing, unsuspecting participants. Test subjects. Yes. So, and so, yeah, so it was really about instilling that every day something good happens. And I love that because it also gives everyone a glimpse into each other's life and update. And I also think that's how perhaps you have created and built such a strong bond in your family.

31:17So I think I read it, I read that quote, and I can't remember who I read it from. At some stage, I need to go and research who that came from. But, yeah, the quote is, you're only as happy as your unhappiest child. And I probably read that at a time when I had a whole lot of teenagers running around, going through different things, you know, the ups and downs of teenage life. And I thought, yeah, that's really true. Because every night when I close my eyes, I'm thinking about the things that are going on in my kid's life and, you know, well, Savannah's happy or, you know. and it's rare that all of them are happy all of the time, you know, and so then you're thinking about what can you do to support, help, assist, and so it is.

32:03It's a really true barometer that you're only as happy as your unhappiest child, and I think it's, you know, it's great that, you know, I'm happy most of the time, you know, but there are times when things weigh on my mind, And I know it's because what's weighing on my mind isn't about me. It's actually about one of them.

32:23Rachel Lim: So it's also then, you know, as parents, especially with more than one kids, it's important to constantly, you know, have pulse on how everyone is. And understand that they're different personalities and they're going to tackle things differently. It's like managing a team, you know, they've all got their own personalities. They're going to do things in their own way. It's amazing. So you've just got to allow them to find their path. And you were telling me also that next month you're celebrating your 30th wedding anniversary with Steve. How do you ensure that you don't lose yourselves, especially when kids came along?

33:03Rachel Lim: Because I think that's something that a lot of parents fall into. Like we neglect our partners and give everything to, I can imagine our kids, raising them, and then our careers and everything else. but our partners. But I do think it's seasons though. You know, I think it's that there's a time and a place for everything. And I think when the kids are little, it's all hands on deck. You know, there's lots of, you know, care, time, attention, teaching, you know, I think there's a lot of that. As they get older, it became more around the fun and excitement of creating core memories. As a family.

33:43Rachel Lim: As a family. Yeah. I think just we've always made time for each other. And for the longest time, at least one holiday a year would just be he and I. So, you know, whether it's... Even when the kids were growing up. Even when the kids were growing up. That's amazing. You know, we would farm them off to the grandparents somewhere and say, yeah, they're yours for a week. You know, we're just going to go and have quality time together. So I think... So our kids have been the centre of our universe. Don't get me wrong. We've loved being parents and love being parents. But at the end of the day, I love Steve more, you know.

34:24Rachel Lim: It's not necessarily more, it's different, you know. It's beautiful. So he's, you know, he's the one that's going to be around forever. And I think because we plan and dream and, you know, we've always got something on the go that we're working towards, that that keeps things, you know, keeps things going. You know, Jen, I have really thoroughly enjoyed my conversation, you know, and learned so much from you through your professional journey and even through your personal journey. If you could have a billboard down the streets of New York or Tokyo that could say anything at all to anyone, what would your billboard say?

35:05What would it say? You can do it. yeah i think just people giving that people the nudge like you can do it whatever you set your mind to you can do so and it's never there's no age limit to anything i think you know that's the um you know one of the things that i'm starting to think about you know is my next what am i going to do now like what's my next passion project you know i want to learn about ai and how i can you know i can develop help the team develop some tools at work to do some cool stuff and eliminate some of the noise and so that we can go and, you know, really do something amazing.

35:40I'm not thinking, well, I'm too old for that. I'm thinking, what do I need to learn? Who do I need to collaborate with? So I think my billboard would say, you can do it.

35:48Rachel Lim: Oh, I love that. Well, thank you so much, Jen, you know, for all that you are and all that you do, especially through your work, your teams, the lives that you get to touch, whether as customers of HP or even the people working with you as well. So thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, I hope to be able to learn from you and see you soon.