#56: Minister Indranee Rajah: What Does It Take to Want a Future in Singapore?

0:00Rachel Lim: Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Who We Are podcast. There's a question I've been sitting with for a while now, and it's a deeply human one. What does it actually take to want to build a future here? To genuinely want to bring a life into this world, in this city, at this moment in time? I've also been asking the women around me, my friends, my colleagues, my community, and the people who listen to this show. And what I keep hearing is something quieter than I had expected. Not a rejection of family, not even a rejection of children, but a feeling that modern life already asks so much of us before a child even enters the picture.

0:44Rachel Lim: And yet, beneath all of that, I also sense some longing. Singapore's fertility rate is now at its lowest point in history. And the woman leading this conversation is sitting across from me today. She's a lawyer, a senior counsel, a minister who has spent decades helping shape the architecture of this country. And now she has been tasked with something far more intimate and difficult, helping create a society where people feel safe enough, hopeful enough and supported enough to choose family and build futures here. Her name is Indrani Raja. Minister, thank you so much for being here. You know, Minister, when we had lunch recently, One of the things that you said is that If Singapore doesn't help its people feel safe enough Or want to build families and the future here We might eventually become extinct Where did this conviction come from?

1:41There's so much about Singapore that we know and love Singaporeans have a distinct sense of humour Singaporeans have a distinct approach to life We're always thinking forward, we're planning We're conscious of the fact that we are a small country. We help each other. During COVID, Singaporeans were very kind to each other. Recently, you know, on the flights back from the Middle East, you saw those videos of people on the plane and how they reacted to our SAF guys. That, to me, was like the strongest feeling of family ever, the wider Singapore family. And that comes when you have enough Singaporeans, those who are born here, experience life here, have shared life experiences and have walked the Singapore journey, contributed to Singapore's growth, its achievements.

2:29And if you don't have enough locally born Singaporeans, you will lose that. So that's where it's coming from. That desire to make sure that we have a very strong Singapore population of children who are born here. Welcoming, of course, to others, being an open economy, but with a strong sense of Singapore identity.

2:50Rachel Lim: And before we dive deeper into that, I also want to, you know, take a few steps back to your growing up years. You grew up with a Tamil Hindu father who was the deputy commissioner of police. And also a Chinese Anglican mom who lived to 102 years old. It's like two faiths, two cultures in one household. And I'm just so curious, what was it like growing up and what did it shape in you, especially navigating through a world that seemingly, you know, you didn't have a clear template for? Well, in that sense, I think my parents were unusual for their time because mixed marriages were not as common in Singapore then.

3:32We're talking about the 1950s. Not as common as now where there are many more transnational marriages. So they were kind of like trailblazers of their time. My dad passed away when I was very young, five years old. And so my memories of him are for the first five years. And actually the first two years, you don't have such clear memories. But my memories are very clear and distinct. The thing about it is, I think they managed in the household to basically combine what was best of both their backgrounds. So, for example, I had to grow up calling my elder sister and brother, Che Che, which is a Chinese thing.

4:13But our names were chosen by my dad. Our names are actually Sanskrit names. Do you also have a Chinese name? That was only given to me after Interpolitis. Because the Chinese media needed to have a name that they could report. So that's Ing Lani. But I always had an Indian name. And meals at home were always a combination. I was exposed to both sides. my parents always took the view that it was up to the children to decide on which faith. So I do remember when I was very, very young, accompanying my dad to a temple. There was a Hindu temple in Orchard Road, but my mom also took me to church. And in later years, I decided to adopt the Christian faith.

5:00And I've grown up essentially as a Christian. But they didn't argue about which faith the child should adopt. They basically left it to us.

5:11Rachel Lim: And so what did that instill in you since you were young, you think? I think the key thing was openness and willingness to accept people for who they are and just trying to understand where they're coming from, their viewpoints. Some things you may agree with, some things you may not. But also the other thing It's hard to say that it was taught It's more something that you just grow up with, right? It's just being comfortable in your own skin So, yeah I love that, you know Your parents, neither of them imposed on you Or any of the children, you know What they should believe in And things like that And it was really a lot on like Just making decisions for yourselves After being exposed to the choices that you have You know, your mom lived to you at 102 years old and she passed away last year.

6:03Rachel Lim: And essentially, she has lived through Singapore since its colonial days to independence and to everything that Singapore has achieved and built today. Six months after she passed, you stood in parliament to also address this existential challenge that Singapore is facing. What do you think she would have said to you? Mom was always very supportive. She didn't tell me, you should do this, you should do that. The question she always asked was, do you want to do this? Do you think you can do it? And if my answer to both questions was yes, then she said, okay, go for it. And that was true throughout my secondary school, my university years and career.

6:51She basically had enough trust and faith in me to make my own choices.

6:57Rachel Lim: You know, Min Injani, I think one of the things that is so amazing about you and also the journey that has brought you to where you are is that you spent years as one of Singapore's sharpest litigators, senior counsel. And also, you know, there was so much high stakes you were dealing with, precision thinking. And I think there is a very particular way of approaching problems. I imagine, right, for someone with your background, perhaps you are used to building arguments layer by layer and also looking out for logic that holds, logic that doesn't hold. So I'm also just wondering, when you're sitting with something as intangible as creating a space that is safe enough for Singaporeans to build families, does that legal mind help you or sometimes get in the way?

7:45A bit of both and the latter one you have to be careful about, but there's a commonality and it is this. If you are working on a legal case, the most important thing to do is not to jump to conclusions. the most important thing is actually to listen, to hear, to understand what your client is saying and importantly also to understand what the other side is saying so that you can come to some understanding of what the issue is and then work out how to resolve it. And in that sense, it's not different because here we have an issue. The issue is our low TFR. Something is causing it. And in fact, having looked at the problem and approaching it in a very similar way, trying to understand what the problem is, I've come to realize it's not a single issue.

8:34It's a whole range of issues. It's time. It's being able to meet people or not, as the case may be. It is stress at work. It is concern about how you'll be viewed if you ask for time off to take fertility treatment. It's whether I can get housing in time, whether I can get it in the place where I want, near my parents. Can I get enough childcare, infant care? All of those things. It's a multitude of factors, costs and so on. So when you have a multitude of factors, you also need to work out what are the solutions to each of these. So you have to separate them out. So that process is not different from doing a case.

9:17Because you still have to work out what the issues are and work out what the solutions are. But in law, of course, solutions may be a bit clearer. It's dictated by the law. And a bit more straightforward. Straightforward. There's specific remedies or solutions. But in this space, it's a few things. I mean, there's tangibles like more financial support, provision of more childcare spaces, looking to see whether there's enough parental leave. But there's a much, much more difficult one which you don't encounter in the legal sphere. And that is mindsets, values, attitudes, how people see life. And remembering that Singaporeans, the younger ones, millennials, Gen Z, you know, their approach and view of life and their life journey and how they see the different seasons of life is different maybe from previous cohorts.

10:11And you have to recognize and respect that. And most importantly, try to understand what they're saying to you. So, yeah. So, there's some commonalities and some differences.

10:21Rachel Lim: One of the things perhaps, you know, Min Indrani is, I don't think that Singaporeans are necessarily rejecting families, but perhaps they are rejecting the life script around families. For example, the life script around families has been, you know, study hard, get a degree, secure a stable job, apply for BTO, get married, have kids, keep progressing, don't fall behind. And I think for a long time that has served as a pathway for Singaporeans. But today, it may seem more like a list of boxes that they need to check off versus just really living life. So I want to ask, do you think with what you're trying to also do with this Reset and Workgroup, do you think that can also help Singaporeans imagine a different way of living that is also meaningful and responsible, but maybe less scripted?

11:12I think there's quite a bit in what you say. And it is true that when we think of marriage and parenthood, it seems to follow a very different path. And yet in the last, I think, five years of our life, we've seen so much upheaval, things getting turned on their head, different ways of looking at life, etc. So I think that what you say is true. Younger people are confronted with a lot more challenges, a lot more stresses and strains, if you like. But at the same time, I think one thing still remains true, which is that desire for human connection, the desire to have meaningful relationships, to meet others and to be able to connect.

11:57Whether or not that actually translates into a longer term relationship or marriage is one thing. But I think all human beings...

12:05Rachel Lim: It's a social activity and community. You want to belong to a wider group or some may say tribe, some may say community. But it's that sense of belonging. And what is different, you know, one of my grassroots leaders mentioned this the other day and it really struck me. He said, you know, when we were growing up, there was only one thing to do in the evenings, watch television. And there's one television and everybody goes to the sitting room, you sit together, you have dinner, you sit together, you watch, you have your commentaries and you talk about that television show, right? So it's kind of like you have a common thing and everybody is having that same conversation.

12:44Today, most would go off to their own rooms and whip out their iPad or their iPhone or whatever it is, their device. And then you're watching Netflix or whatever. Your own individual. Your own individual thing. So we haven't, I don't think we fully realized it, but over the years, that kind of isolation has crept up on us. And then I think family is very important too, because your family is the one that anchors you. in your growing up years it is your family that gives you you don't think about it but the back of your mind is you know mum and dad are there if you have siblings you know your siblings are there you know there's somebody who's always going to cheer you on no matter what and when you get older and when you have your own family that sense of you know these are my children

13:32Rachel Lim: and I want to bring them up As in define also joy and fulfillment Joy, definitely joy, fulfillment just when I speak to those parents who have children and I ask them about their children I say you know is it worth it and the answer is always yes no matter what kind of challenges or difficulties they may have faced and I ask them why and they say just watch them watching them smile watching them grow seeing them say their first words or seeing them you know out playing laughing or whatever it is, that joy in having families. So I think we want that. We want that. We want Singaporeans to be able to experience that.

14:15Whether or not they choose to do so is something else. This is not to say that those who are single don't have, you know, a meaningful life. Of course they do. But even singles have sisters, brothers and friends. So, you know, Or colleagues whom they connect with. So that connection and that sense of belonging is important.

14:36Rachel Lim: And you also spoke about how the world has evolved tremendously from when we grew up, you know, gathering around the television set to watch a program to what it is today. What do you think then has been the key mindset shift that you've had to have taking on this role now to lead this conversation nationally? I think the key thing for me would be understanding where younger Singaporeans are coming from. So the interesting thing for me in the focus group discussions, right, because I asked them, do you have time to hang out with others or even go dating? and there seemed to be some hesitation about dating or hanging out too much, meaning that they're okay to go out with friends, but concerned that if you hang out too much, you may be seen as like playing the field.

15:31I mean, this was the feedback that I got in that particular focus group thing. And I was like, I was scratching my head a little bit. It's like, in my time, I was like, just go hang out now, you know? But clearly, there was something else that was weighing. So I was like, okay, I need to try to understand this better. Because just because that wasn't so when I was young, doesn't mean that it is not so for them. That's one. There's another one that came up from the focus groups, which was how much expectation young parents put on themselves. Or those who were thinking about having children. because they really were very, very concerned whether they would be good parents and whether they would be able to achieve all the things that a good parent should be able to achieve, which was not so much, I think, the case with previous generations.

16:23They kind of like, okay, parent, just do it. And then you work out how it goes as you go, right? But I think because over the years, as a country, as a nation, we've been so used to, I must ace this. I must do this really well. I must be perfect at it. Which has served us well for a part of it. It serves you well on the economic side. It serves you well when you're doing projects. But when it comes to life and just human relationships, it's not quite the same approach. I mean, you have to be a bit gentler on yourself. You've also got to be gentler on the partner and more understanding, I suppose, or at least allow for more room for different viewpoints.

17:08So that mindset shift was something I had to wrap my head around and to understand where younger people were coming from.

17:14Rachel Lim: Min Indrani, I think that part of the hesitation around parenthood is not so much about really having children, but more perhaps about parents feeling like they're stepping into a system that can be quite overwhelming from the very beginning. So, for example, parents here feel like even before their kids are born, they have to think about preschool waitlist. And then there's primary school balloting. And then there's, you know, worrying about whether my kid can read by five or before seven years old. And then there's the PSLE, which feels like so much of the kid's trajectory and future is determined by that one examination at such a young age.

17:51Rachel Lim: And it almost feels like, you know, has parenting here become so emotionally overwhelming that the experience of bringing up kids here has become so high pressure and performance driven from the beginning? I think there's some feedback to that extent. The system, the way it has evolved over the years, tends to make people feel like there's so much that they need to do. And we are doing our best to see how we can help with that. But I think we also need parents to be a little bit gentler on yourselves and not worry so much. Because at the back of mind, you should know that government is doing its very best to provide assurance and support.

18:34Rachel Lim: The Singapore tuition industry is a$1.8 billion industry. And even when the government reduces the quantity of examinations, for example, what parents do is they just double down on the tuition. Because, Min Injiani, I feel that maybe that big PSLE is still there at the end of the day. The underlying fear seems to be that if my child doesn't get into this particular path, my child will not succeed. So it's not so much about PSLE per se. It's more about are there enough pathways to ensure that no matter what, your child will be able to have the opportunity to pursue his or her aspiration in life.

19:11Rachel Lim: You know, I hear you and I really feel like I struggle as a parent myself. My son, he is six years old this year and going to enroll to Premier 1 next year. And in his preschool, I think my husband and I have been called up by his school. And they tell us that, oh, they are so worried for Ollie because, you know, unlike his peers, he's not able to read as well as them. and perhaps they were also subtly suggesting that we would need to get extra help in terms of like tuition and things like that. My husband and I really sat down and we thought about it, like do we want to put him through that at this day and age?

19:50Rachel Lim: And I was really sitting down and asking the teachers, he's just five turning six, and do you really agree with the suggestion that you are also proposing to us? And their response was, but we can't help it. If he's going to be enrolled in the Singapore education system in the primary school, there will be a list of things that he will need to check off to ensure that he is ready for primary one. And I guess that's where I also feel the struggle, Min Indrani, because as much as parents, we also don't want to pressure and not at this age, for example. But I also feel some sense of like, you know, being trapped in the system and I don't know how long I can hold out for.

20:29So that's really valuable feedback because if that's that sense, then we must see how we can address it. We want our children to be able to have the right academic skills, that's for sure. But at the same time, we want to make sure that they're not hothoused or pressured so much that they cannot enjoy their childhood. And just one other thing to bear in mind is that for different children, the balance may be different. So it's really, really, very important to look at each child and see how that child or what's best. Because some really thrive on, I want to do the next competition. I want to do the next thing.

21:05And for some, for them, it doesn't work that way.

21:08Rachel Lim: You know, one of the things that I saw, Shirley, the founder of Moms at Work, you know, she has this organization where she helps moms coming back to the workforce. assimilate again. And she wrote and she said that support systems that we have in Singapore can reduce the load. And we are very thankful for that. But the support systems don't change who carries the responsibility for managing the load. Someone still has to, you know, remember the school forms, the doctor appointments, tuition schedules, family logistics, checking in with elderly parents, and help can assist with the task. But it doesn't really remove the invisible mental weight of being the one who holds it all together.

21:51Rachel Lim: What are your thoughts around this? So I would agree that there is a great sense of I need to be able to carry all these different things for women. And I think the best way to deal with this is actually for both husbands and employers to be supportive and colleagues as well. So that you help to share some of those responsibilities or loads, or even if you're not sharing responsibility, if you have an employer who's understanding and willing to give you time off, willing to put in place flexible work arrangements, that already helps. When one of my focus group discussions, there was a lady who was undergoing fertility treatment, but she was so stressed because she did not dare tell her employer that that's what she was going for.

22:42So as far as the employer is concerned, she's just taking time off all the time, right? But not knowing what it's for. Or she tried to fit it in without telling the employer. And that's carrying an enormous stress, enormous load. But we need to move to, and here's where the mindset change needs to take place. We need to move to a workplace culture where when you're undergoing fertility treatment, you should be able to feel that I can go to HR, I can go to my team leader, I can go to my boss and say, I need the time for this. And you want to have employers and workplaces say, yes, we will support you.

23:21So coming back to what you talked about, how the women feel, if you have a supportive workplace, colleagues, employers, supportive spouse, that actually makes a big difference because then you feel you're not carrying it all alone.

23:36Rachel Lim: Why do you think there isn't enough support in this area? I think because we're still stuck in a work paradigm that developed maybe 10, 20 years ago. There was a time, a long time ago when things were 9 to 5. In those days, we still had to work Saturdays, half day. But, you know, you had your weekend. But somewhere in the 2000s, with email, with convergence of everything into your device, work became 24-7. And not did it only become 24-7, the pace became faster and the competitive pressures became more intense. And I think that's what we've seen in the last 20 years. And that explains why the TFR is slow, not just for us, but globally TFR is falling.

24:27because all those things are coming together and intensifying and people are feeling it. So the reaction is, you know, lying flat, quiet quitting, all those sorts of things. It's a reaction to that. And so coming back to your point, why do I think it's like that? I think it's because we're still working according to workplace norms that were set some time ago. and it hasn't fully taken into account the fact that people are feeling it and reacting to it and we need to get balance back or alignment maybe that's a better word than balance and that is why I think it's very important for workplaces, employers, HR and team managers to have a look at their own companies and ask themselves, am I truly supportive of my employees in terms of their work life while being able to achieve my business goals?

25:28So questions that would have to be asked is, first is, of course, what are my business goals? Then two, do I have enough people here to achieve it? And if some of them have to take time off for child caring and so on, does my work design support this? Do I have flexible work arrangements? Do I have a fertility policy to allow them to take time off? What would make my employee happy to work for me, willing to give me their all and at the same time, you know, have enough time to tend to their family matters? If we could have more of those conversations at the workplace, I think it would make a big difference.

26:06Rachel Lim: And what if the response from the employer is, why should I allow all of that if it doesn't make sense for my business. Because at some point, if you don't do that, your employee may decide that, why should I stay here? And you may lose somebody very good as a result. So having good family-friendly policies can be a competitive advantage for work if it is properly designed. So I'm hoping that companies will see it that way. I think most of them, when you speak to them, They understand our national imperative. They all acknowledge that the GFR is not great. But because everybody is also trying to meet their bottom lines, their P &Ls, make sure that they get their profits and so on, I'm not sure that enough time is being spent thinking about how I can get my workplace into alignment with this and turn my HR family policies into a business competitive advantage.

27:10If more of them could do that and make it work and then we share the success stories, then others can look at it and say, hey, firstly, it can be done. And two, I want to do that too because I also want to attract good employees.

27:23Rachel Lim: I think what you shared earlier about, you know, even women who are taking time off for fertility treatment and all that, it's not something that it's really spoken about often or it's not something that comes out over lunch in the office. And I say that because even for myself and I am relatively close to a particular team in the office whom I work closely with and one of them, I can't remember how we ended up talking about it. But I was absolutely shocked that she was actually, she has been trying for a kid and going for fertility treatments for the past year. And I did not even know about it.

28:00Rachel Lim: And she had been struggling on her own and she said she just didn't think that she would need to talk about it or share about it. to. But yet at the same time, you know, she has also still been pushing herself to ensure that she meets what's expected of her professionally. So what would your advice or word be to women who are going through this but are afraid or just not thinking twice about sharing this? I think the advice is not just for women because I think for men, their fertility issues also and they feel it, you know, anybody who has fertility issues is going to feel it no matter what. But it's the weight of expectation and how society perceives you and for some that might hit them more than others.

28:39I think at the very heart of it is the stigma that is attached. Because I think those who have to say that I'm going for fertility treatment, are people going to think there's something wrong with me? Am I lacking in some way? Am I deficient in some way? And how will people perceive me? So that is at the core of it. Some people may have fertility issues. It's not different from other health issues. We don't have an issue saying that I need to go for a checkup today. I need to go, you know, for some medical procedure. Nobody really attaches stigma to that. We should do our best to reach a point where you can say, I need to go for my fertility check or my fertility treatment today.

29:22And to be normalized. Normalized and your employer and your boss says, yeah, you should, you know, just make sure that you take the time that you need for that. We need to reach that point. And in order to reach that point, I think there has to be more discussion about it and more awareness and more understanding of what is needed. So fertility.sg, for example, has put out a handbook for employers. And I think that that's really useful because it's not a well-understood area. People mean well, but sometimes may not ask the right questions or may not say it in the right way. Having a handbook like that is really very useful.

29:55You know, when I also meet Ndjani, when I speak to some of my colleagues who are single in the sense of like they're not married yet, or even some of them, they're married and with partners.

30:07Rachel Lim: And I was just asking them about their thoughts on settling down, getting married, having kids. And a lot of them have said that, you know, they have built lives that they genuinely love. They travel when they want to. They eat well. They spend on themselves without guilt. So it's almost like they have that kind of freedom that feels heart-worn. And they want to protect that quality of life that they have worked so hard for. What would your response be to them? Because they see having a kid as potentially also not just a financial cost, but a cost to their quality of life. I fully understand where they're coming from.

30:47because you do want to be able to enjoy things, especially when you're at the prime of your life, right? The question though is, is there something else which would also give you great satisfaction and joy and fulfillment? And if there is, such as marriage and parenthood, give that a chance. Again, that's a personal choice. Fully respect that choice. The only thing is when making the choice to just bear in mind that nature and biology have a clock of their own. They are marching to a certain timeline and there is a correlation between age and fertility. So some may find themselves in a scenario where they've wanted children but left it a bit late and then encounter challenges.

31:34And we've had some stories of those. And my hope is that, you know, not too many people will find themselves in that situation only because they held off wanting to experience other things. I guess everybody has to make their own decisions and their own choices and what is right for them. The question is whether it is possible to still have a family life and children and yet be able to enjoy those other things. It may mean that you do some of it later or you do it when children are a particular age and work out what's best for you.

32:07Rachel Lim: And, you know, in some of the interviews that you have done also, So there was some reaction to the word detour that you used. Yes. What was your response when you saw the reaction? Was it something that you had expected? Okay, okay. Let me explain the issue, right? Because I had talked about the possibility of women being able to have a detour after having children and take some time out from work. And it was meant, you know, in the best possible sense. So when I heard that there were actually some reactions that were not all positive, I was curious why and using the usual approach, try to understand, right?

32:49And so what I was told was, one, detour implies that they took a wrong path. And that's not the intention at all. I was using detour in the sense of, well, you've been working full time after a certain point. you have your child, you need some time to be with your child. And some women may prefer a longer period. And so by detour, effectively I meant time out, take a pause, have a different season. You can choose any of those phrases or terms, but it was just meant to say that we should try to find a way where they don't feel so impelled that they really must come back to work so soon and the employers will be understanding.

33:33Then there was a second sort of reaction, which was not all of us can afford to have a detour, which is a very valid consideration because not everyone can afford to stop working because they do need the income. So for that group, we had been also thinking about how we can be supportive. And hence, we introduced shared parental leave, which is government paid. So government picks up the tab and it's mandatory. So the employers have to give it. That's up to 10 weeks now. It started off six weeks last year, 10 weeks this year, and it's kicked in. we're still assessing to see how it works. But that was to give parents protected time with their children while still being able to have an income.

34:11And the other part would be to see how we can have more effective flexible work arrangements. So we've already taken a step by having the tripartite guidelines on flexible work arrangements. I think the thing that the committee is looking at or workgroups looking at is how can this be implemented better? And that would support those who still have to continue working, but at the same time need time off. And then the third area, which is what the work group is looking at, is the mindset part. Because for those who have to continue working, you will feel the pressure of time. You need to do your work.

34:44And at the same time, you need to care for your child. And so for that, if we can have the mindset shifts I talked about, the supportive employers, the HR, the work redesign, changing workplace norms and cultures, that would help women too. And then there were some who said, but what about the guys? Why is it only for women? And the answer is that, yes, that should be for the guys as well. But we all know, if we're honest about it, that the reality is that most of this is really, the women are the ones who experience this challenge the most. And that is why I talked about it in the context of women being able to do it.

35:17But, you know, for guys, if that's something that if the fathers wanted to do this, absolutely, that should be something that they should be able to do as well. So there has been an increase over the years in taking of paternity leave. And we are still seeing what the pattern is for shared parental leave because we don't have all the data yet. But anecdotally, we do hear of fathers making use of that.

35:37Rachel Lim: Yeah. You know, Min Njani, there has also been, there are also people who look at your appointment and also wonder about the fact that, you know, Min Njani, you're a single woman without children leading this national conversation on marriage and parenthood. How do you sit with that tension? Actually, I take it very matter-of-factly. There hasn't been the right person at the right time, so my life trajectory is such that I'm single. And that's fine. That's for me. But maybe because I am, and maybe because I've also lost family members along the way, my dad, when I was very young, my brother and sister, my sister to breast cancer, My brother, back in 2007, he had a heart attack And mum had the longest life, but she passed away last year But because of that, I can actually say that first-hand experience I know the importance of family and why it is so important to our family Because when they're not there and they're gone, you feel that absence which is why I would hope and want for Singaporeans to be able to have families of their own so that they can be surrounded by that same love, joy that I experienced growing up with my family.

36:57And then the other part is you don't necessarily have to have exactly the same experience in order to empathize. The key thing, as far as I'm concerned, is that you try to really understand what's on people's minds, where their concerns are and how we can do our best to support them.

37:20Rachel Lim: In the journey that you shared, and especially about the family, and thank you for sharing that, do you, looking back now, do you have any regrets? No. No? No. I mean, when you say regrets, that implies that, you know, there's something I could have done, didn't do. And you just take life as it comes. The key thing is to make the most of what you can with the life that you have. Because for human beings, there's a certain span, right? And it's a question of what you fill it with. And yeah, so if you may not have something for yourself, but if you can work hard so that others can have it and it's a good thing for them to have, then that's great.

38:01You have the memories that give you the strength. And knowing that there was something so wonderful there, that keeps you going as well.

38:10Rachel Lim: Min and Johnny, I want to ask about something, you know, a little more serious now, right? I think every year in Singapore, there are about 745 children being born to unwed moms. And these children are not eligible for baby bonus and also working mom child relief. What are your thoughts around that? And is there a conversation internally where perhaps, you know, we should re-look at the way we define who gets these benefits? Because right now it's tied to marriage by design. Is there a conversation around who deserves support in this sense? Right. So that's something that, you know, has been brought up quite often.

38:49I would say this, the original intent behind the baby bonus was that it was designed as an incentive. And if it's positioned as an incentive, then it's also hard for government to say that we would like to incentivize you to have children out of wedlock. So that has been the thinking. At the same time, we also recognize that every child when they're born needs support. And for single mothers, for some of them, not all, but for some of them, they maybe need more support because their families may not be willing to be supportive, right? So we have over the years extended more and more things to single unwed mothers or to the children of single unwed mothers.

39:43Right now, the baby bonus doesn't apply because that one was designed as an incentive. But the child development account does apply. The baby bonus was designed as an incentive to have kids. But specifically, the baby bonus was designed for a married couple. Well, you see, once you say designed to encourage you to have children, then our societal values are still such, I think, that not everyone is comfortable to say we encourage you to have a child irrespective of marital status. So that has been the issue so far. But recognizing that they've needed housing, that they've needed financial support and so on.

40:25For example, the introduction of the housing policy to allow singles to buy flats does extend housing options to them. So I think the way I would put it is this, we'll continue to look at this to see how children can be supported and to see what we can do to make sure that every Singaporean child has the opportunity to progress.

40:51Rachel Lim: It can be very tough also because I do know of people around me who do not choose to get married, do not want to choose to be bound by a cert to get married. Or even, for example, for different reasons, the marriages are not recognized in this state. But they still are very keen on having children. Yet at the same time, they are not eligible for the benefits here, which makes them rethink that decision. or, you know, I feel like some of them might even feel like they want to just give birth in a different country, which to me is a pity. So, yeah. I understand. So that's the reason why we need to have conversations about this and to think about it.

41:35And at the end of it, to see where we should land, whether we remain status quo or whether there's any changes that need to be made.

41:43Rachel Lim: You know, me and Njani, leading something this big and this contested, I think it takes a lot from a person as well. What has this season or period asked of you? Because I think ultimately underneath it all, you're still a person and not just a minister. Well, I think what it's asked of me is to do something really meaningful. Meaningful for others as well as for Singapore. And that is why, despite the fact that it's an uphill task, everybody I meet tells me what an uphill task it is. and behind that is that, oh, do you think we can actually move the needle? To which my response is that, yeah, it is an uphill task, but for that very reason, that is why we need to do it because it's really the future of Singapore at stake.

42:33We don't have more Singaporeans and we do want Singaporeans to be able to have meaningful relationships and to experience the joy of having a family of their own. So to me, it's meaningful work to do which is why I'm happy to do it uphill or not.

42:47Rachel Lim: If there is a title for this chapter of your life, what do you think that title would be? Oh, good question. I have not thought about that. I definitely won't call it Mission Impossible. But in all the Mission Impossible ones, if you think about it, he has succeeded, right? Yeah, okay. Maybe Mission Impossible. Mission Impossible. I'm so curious, you know, Min Imjani, this is really... And to say that, to call it an uphill task is almost not even doing it enough justice. It's really tough. What gives you that quiet confidence that it can be done? Because you should never give up. You should never just say that, oh, something is difficult and therefore I don't do it.

43:31And we've seen time and time again that if everybody comes together, it's not just one person doing it. So that's the key thing. I sincerely believe that if the whole of Singapore comes together And everybody does something We can make a change And when I say that What I mean is there's a whole range On one side, the government sort of doing more With financial support Increasing childcare places Or whatever it is That's one side But on the other side of the equation Something as simple as You see a pregnant woman on MRT Please stand up give her your seat? Do you have lactation rooms in your workplace?

44:15Will you give somebody time off for flexible work arrangements because you know that they have to settle their child and they have an elderly parent? If each of us can do something in that way, if every organization can organize social mixes for their employees who are not married to meet. So if everybody can do something within their means, within their resources, then I think we can change.

44:43Rachel Lim: And you have faith in that. I do. And you know, 10 years from now, Min Injwani, if this reset works, like truly works, what would it look like for a mum who chooses to have a kid in Singapore? What would it look like for her on a regular Tuesday evening, having a child or maybe more than one child, yet at the same time not losing her own identity and sense of self? Okay. There are two separate things in that question. Let me take the first one, which is a little bit easier. So what I hope it will look like for a mum 10 years from now is that she will feel that it's okay for her to go ahead and have children, even though she's having a full-time job, safe in the knowledge that if she chooses to take a timeout, a pause or whatever it is, her employer will be supportive.

45:43Or that if for some reason she has to continue working, she will still have the assurance that there is time for her child, for her family and exactly the same thing to apply to the fathers and the men. So that's one thing. In other words, to feel safe and secure in having children without having to pay a huge price for it. That's ultimately what I hope would happen. Then the other part about identity that you talked about, that's true because for women, very often it's somebody's daughter, somebody's mother, somebody's wife, all of that mixed up with it, right? but I think the most important thing is I hope for women to know who you are your own identity and that never changes whether you're a daughter whether you're a wife whether you're a mother whether you are a colleague your identity remains central and you don't have to dilute that you don't have to be less than yourself and who you truly are and that all those other things are just different facets and dimensions of who you are.

46:58Rachel Lim: Beyond the minister that we know you as, who are you and what are some things that people don't really know about you that are quite interesting? Would you have raised your hand for it if you were not assigned to it? Yes, I suppose the answer is yes, I would have because it's worth doing. And how do you, I mean, this is really also a huge task amongst, you know, a lot of other things that you're also taking care of in the government. But what are some ways that you de-stress or unwind, especially after a long and tough day? Okay, exercise is very important because you just, I mean, I run. I try for gym at least once a week.

47:43Very important to stave off osteoporosis. Make sure that you don't have muscle loss. Maintain balance. Then if I can't get out to run or to the gym, then there are lots of videos that you can follow either for Pilates or Tabata. There's that. Yeah, there are quite a lot of videos with different types of exercises. So, yeah.

48:07Rachel Lim: You know, one final question I have for you, Minindrani, is what do you hope that people understand about you after this conversation that perhaps they didn't before? Well, I hope that they understand why I am doing this and that it really comes from a place of wanting the best for Singaporeans. Thank you so much, Minindrani, for coming on the show and for being so open. Is there any last words that you want to share with everyone who's listening to this conversation? I think the only last message I want to get out is please help with this Marriage and Parenthood reset. It's really for Future of Singapore.

48:50Rachel Lim: Thank you so much. Thank you.

49:01Thank you.