Sam Beam of Iron & Wine: Grammy-nominated musician on creativity, collaboration, and why a good day is finding one great lyric

0:00I was a maker. I was a visual art maker. I just liked to start something and develop it and polish it and present it when it was done, when it was ready. And collaboration is not. It's about getting vulnerable. It's the opposite. It's about getting vulnerable, showing something half made or something that you haven't developed at all that you're presenting to be developed together. it.

0:23Most musicians start learning an instrument at an early age, or so we think, but that wasn't the path of our guest today. He was an arty kid drawing and painting in his bedroom, and then later a film teacher before he became the musical success that he is today. Five-time Grammy-nominated Sam Beam, who you know as Iron and Wine, told us his music career still feels like a bit of a flute, even though it's been over half his life now. Things started to come together for him when he got his hands on a four-track recorder. Suddenly, music wasn't just about performing. It was about making something that he could develop and refine, just like a drawing.

1:01We talk about how he balances his prolific output with raising five daughters, why he used to keep office hours for creativity that was nine to two every day, and how a successful day can be as simple as finding one good word. We also dig into collaboration, how working with other musicians and even his daughter Arden on his new record pushes him outside his comfort zone. And why he believes that your art should be like a mirror reflecting something with a perspective. Sam's new record, Hen's Teeth, drops February 27th, and he's heading out on tour, hitting Australia, the Midwest, East Coast, and West Coast.

1:40But first, we wanted to understand how someone who came from visual art built one of the most distinctive voices in American folk music. This is Design Better, where we explore creativity at the intersection of design and technology. I'm Eli Woolery. And I'm Aaron Walter. If you're hearing this, you're not currently on our premium subscriber feed. Design Better Premium subscribers enjoy weekly episodes. That's four episodes per month rather than just two. And all of them are ad-free. Plus, you'll get an invitation to our monthly AMAs with the smartest folks in design and tech. And if you subscribe at the annual level, you'll also get our toolkit, a collection of our favorite design and productivity tools like Perplexity, Miro, Read AI, and more.

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2:59We'll return to the conversation after this quick break.

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3:21and now back to the show

3:28Sam Beam, welcome to Design Better. Thanks so much, Aaron. It's great to talk to you. Yeah, we were just talking before we hit record. I know your sister and your brother-in-law and your nieces and your mom and dad. That's right. They're all wonderful people, so I know you come from good stock. Thank you. All that's enough. Yeah. A lot to talk to you about today, your writing, recording process, collaboration, And of course, you've got a new record coming out at the end of the month called Hidden Streets. That's right. I think February 27th is the date it drops, if I remember correctly. That's right.

4:03Hidden Streets. Yeah, and you've got a couple singles out already, and we'll jump into that. But let's start from the beginning. I'd like to know more about your early life and where you started, because I think most folks, when they hear a musician who sort of hit the big time or achieved some sort of success like you have, They think, oh, they must have been playing music their whole life from their childhood. But that's really not your starting point. Your starting point was painting and drawing. That's right. Yeah, it's the arty kid hanging out in his bedroom just drawing all the time. Honestly, the music career feels a bit like a fluke most of the time.

4:39It's been over half of my life now, so it's a long fluke. Yeah. But it still feels like it took me by surprise a bit. That said, I mean, I always loved music a lot, but just never really had the discipline to practice. I was never really interested in practicing. I like to make things. And so when I eventually got a hold of a four-track recorder, it sort of became less about just performing something and turned into making something. Something that I could develop, make changes to, and refine like I would have drawn. That's when it all took off, and one thing took over the other. When did you get a guitar for the first time?

5:19My dad had a guitar back in the late 70s, early 80s. We got him a guitar for his birthday. And it sat in the closet, and I always looked at it, and it was really hard to play because my fingers were small. But eventually, I figured it out. Does he still have that guitar? No, I don't think so. It was when Kenny Rogers was big, and everybody wanted to get a guitar. Yeah. I saw Kenny Rogers in Athens picking up Thai food one day. And I was picking up Thai food. I think he had ordered everything on the menu. It was such a gigantic order. And I got to tell you, I saw him and I thought, all right, I recognize this guy, but doesn't look quite right.

6:01He had had so much plastic surgery. I just could not register it was Kenny Rogers. Under all those scars, Kenny was still in there. Kenny needs options, though, apparently. He likes to keep his options. Sam, we were talking a little bit about family and moms before we started recording. And I know in my case, my mom definitely helped inspire my career and route into kind of a more creative life. Because I think given another go around, she would have probably chosen that. She ended up being a doctor, but she has a real creative spark and she loves to draw and paint. I'm curious, your mom, what role did she play in your creative exploration?

6:39My mom was very supportive. I mean, my parents are both science people, don't really trust themselves around a paintbrush or wouldn't really be interested. But they never discouraged me. You know, they didn't understand it. But I always felt like they saw what I was doing and found it important, at least important, not to stop me. So in that sense, I was really lucky. Could have gone the other way. You know, oftentimes when parents don't have that interest, they discourage you. But no, I always felt I always felt different. and that's a little lonely, but I never felt like I was doing the wrong thing.

7:11They made me feel like it was important, which I really am thankful for. You know, we all have different abilities and no one's like just science or just artistic. You know, they all have bits and pieces of all that together. It's just funny how we're discouraged oftentimes. These little lanes you feel like you're supposed to get into. But I found the arts in general draw you toward the other sciences to help you make the art. Maybe it's just the way the art world presents itself, but it seems off-putting to a lot of science-minded people. Yeah. So painting, drawing, and music. I'm curious if visual arts, and ultimately, like you studied filmmaking and you became interested in that.

7:52You were teaching in Miami, teaching film. It definitely comes through in your album artwork. And I feel also like the textures and colors and kind of layers of your recordings, too. Can you talk about the relationship of visual arts, filmmaking and music? Does that mix together in your mind? Definitely, yeah. They each have things they do uniquely. But yeah, they're all connected. Just the pursuit is similar. One thing led to another in my education and sort of interest in art. I also like to read and like to think of stories and things like that. So the movie stuff, the cinema pursuit, kind of made sense because, you know, it's so many things going on at one time.

8:33The visual photo element, the stories, music that goes, you know, it's all just this huge multidisciplinary art form, which I just fell in love with. But turns out it's prohibitively expensive. So I was able to do a lot more music in my spare time when I took over the other. So I kind of went where the interest was. where I was giving feedback and interest. I think I was just drawn to make music the way that I do. I mean, I still feel like I'm trying to switch it up and try different things, but my interest in the way I write songs isn't necessarily trying to copy screenwriting, but I think I was just interested in screenwriting for the same reason I'm interested in telling songs in a visual way.

9:20It's just sort of a tactile, doesn't dive into explaining feelings very much. It's interesting too that your music career broke open through film when you had a song selected for the vampire werewolf movie. Now I'm blanking on that. Yeah, Twilight. Yeah, the irony is not lost on me. It's wild. And to be able to over the years participate with a lot of different filmmakers and stuff with different songs and things. Just be able to participate on that level with this backdoor kind of way. It's interesting. It's cool. I would never have thought about that when I was in art school. Sam, you paint a lot of your album covers.

9:59They're really lovely. I think they mesh. I mean, it's not a surprise, but they mesh so well with your musical style. I'm curious how they inform each other. Would you have a painting already in mind when you're working on a song or vice versa as an iterative thing at all? Not necessarily while I'm working on a song, but when you have this batch of songs, you start to think about something that's related. it's kind of fun to let your mind wander and you obviously start with very specific literal translations of things but you're just sort of going on trying to find a vibe rather than really like a illustration but this last one we did it's fun my kids are getting older and some of them have been in art school and different types of creative things now and we did a big like a self-portrait in red we did there's a lot of tropicalia brazilian tropicalia kind of music on the new record.

10:49So we did this big sort of red jungle. And my daughter, who's a makeup artist in New York, she did my makeup in all red and covered my eyes with feathers. You know, it's just really fun to be able to do this fun family project now, too. So I can't take total credit for coming up with all this. It's a group effort. It's a beautiful record cover. I think it's one of my favorites of yours. I really like it. The White Feathers, in particular, kind of almost make you look like a cartoon character. Someone said I look like that lobster off of SpongeBob. Yeah, there you go. Krabby Patties. Yeah, right?

11:28Yeah, that's great. I'll take it. I'm curious. So you grew up with a sister, Sister Sarah, and your mom was around a bunch. You have five daughters. I do. You have two nieces. You have a lot of feminine energy in your life. So much feminine energy. But yeah, apparently there was some imbalance in the universe that I needed to correct. I'm curious how that influences your writing. I notice if we were to pull apart collaboration, I mean, you collaborate with a lot of different people. But I definitely feel like there's some comfort, is my read, of female collaborators, female energy. How does that affect your writing and the creative process, do you think?

12:10I mean, kids in general, whether they're female or male or whatever, You just have to be patient. I think parenting gives you a different perspective than people without kids. And so I try to take a long view. My songs, some of them are direct statements, but a lot of them also sort of take a step back. And I like to approach them like a poem where you talk about the middle of the story, like what's happening in the middle. But you also back up a little bit and talk about what else is happening in the scene. And so all those things become just as important, just sort of existence and the odd things that are all going on at one time that reflect each other, but also contradict one.

12:50You know, I find that kind of stuff really fun. And I'm not sure I would be able to do that the way that I do without being a parent. You mentioned your kids are a little older. My daughter's now just entered high school and my son's still a little younger. He's in the fourth grade. And there's definitely like these different moments where, you know, in the very early years, obviously you're just kind of trying to survive. and get enough sleep and then it kind of plays like maybe doing creative things with them or watching their creativity develop and then you know my daughter's now at the point where she's a pretty good illustrator and artist on her own right and she kind of inspires me how's that like evolution work for you with your five daughters yeah they're all very different some of them have been into drawing some of them have been into different performance yeah if there's so much going on always at one time there always will be just always kind of feel on the back foot a little bit.

13:40Like you said, the emergencies are still emerging. They're just different shapes. They're just different consequences and different urgencies. Definitely stays busy when they leave. So your daughter Arden is on the new record singing. That's right. What was that like to have her present for a recording session, feeling maybe less like a daughter and more like a peer, a creative peer? What does she feel about that? She was into it. She's a little shy. She doesn't really want to go on tour, but she was definitely game to come and record. You can imagine. I was like beaming. Yeah. How Dad just sort of soaking it up.

14:19And being able to share this thing that is so important to me, which I've spent a lot of my life doing. And the studio is my playground. Recording is my favorite part. To be able to share and see her enjoying it was just indescribable. It was great. Yeah, we'll see where she goes. It's hard to say. You know, she's pretty young. She's still trying out a lot of different things. But yes, Sarah Simpson's got some competition. Your sister, yeah. Sam, you're really into collaborating with other artists. I'm sure we'll talk about that too. But you also sometimes will take another artist's work and sort of transform it.

14:52I was just listening yesterday to Such Great Heights. And I love the original song, but yours is so different. And it's just a cool transformation. And I just wonder, what's that process like? Have you ever talked to the artist about your interpretation and get their thoughts on it? Yeah. I haven't. I probably should. That's a good idea. Yeah. It's a really fun thing to do. I have the fortune or misfortune, however you want to see it or depend on the day, of being a band with one permanent member. And so the band keeps changing. And so I get to revisit all these different songs. And if you try to play them the same way, they'll sound different.

15:28In a sense, I do with my own material all the time. And it's just such a treat to be able to take someone else's and find whatever aspect about it that tickles you or whatever makes you feel like you have something else to say, if you could change it. It's just fun to put them in different lights and different shadings and see what else it has to say because they are like little scripts. Recording in bands in general are a lot like acting troops. It's a lot like making a movie or like getting takes in a movie, you know, like action. And then everyone has their role and they all depend on one another and you're trying to create this indescribable, intangible moment that has an effect that you can't really describe and you can't prescribe.

16:11But it happens when stars align and everyone's concentrating and trying. It's a really interesting connection that I had been trained to recognize and then all of a sudden recognize it in this other art form. It was really fun. That's an interesting way to frame it. Just even the way you've set up your band, that it's iron and wine. So it's almost like a business is incorporated in a certain way to allow certain types of activities. You've set this up as like a rotating collaboration, which there are some great artists that have done this, and it's been a fabulous vehicle for reinvention. Prince famously would rotate his band.

16:52The Revolution was at the top of his game, and he's like, everybody out, I'm rebuilding. Miles Davis, he would do the same thing. Bruce Springsteen is the opposite. He's had the same band. Bob Dylan, he rotated people. There's not a lot of people that have set themselves up the way that you have. And I'm curious if that goes back to that four-track recording experience in your bedroom where you felt, oh, I can make all of this. I have a certain level of control and flexibility. Why is it iron and wine and not sand beam? I just thought one was more interesting on a marquee, to be honest. Okay. Here's a moment real quick, Sam, where we verify what's on Wikipedia.

17:32but the story there is that you saw a supplement on a shelf that was like beef, iron, and wine. Is that true? Yeah, that is true. Yeah, I will verify. Okay. To you for once. Yeah, I was in film school in Tallahassee, and we were shooting in some convenience store in South Georgia somewhere. And yeah, there was a stuff on the shelf alongside like the other weird things like castor oil and stuff that people think they're supposed to take. Yeah, it was the stuff called beef, iron, and wine. It used to be like some kind of protein supplement that Snake Oil Sailor Man would bring around. It just struck me as a weird combo of words.

18:06That's great. Yeah, love it. So just to take us back to this collaboration thing, instead of having a permanent band, why a rotating band? Well, I can't say that it was all about design. Forethought and initiative are not always my fortes. You know, I just get restless. I think it's just sort of the creative type. You keep wanting to shift and you don't want to get stuck. And the minute it feels stale, you know you've got to shift things around. And lately, I've been doing a lot more collaborative. You mentioned the early days when I was doing stuff in the bedroom. And it wasn't necessarily about controlling.

18:39It was just, you know, that's what I was doing at the time. And those were my resources. I mean, I knew a few musicians, but they didn't know me as a musician. I was just kind of doing songs in my spare time at home. But then I realized when I started playing with people that I did have some control issues, if you will. I was a maker. I was a visual art maker. I just like to start something and develop it and polish it and present it when it was done, when it was ready. And collaboration is not. It's about getting vulnerable. It's the opposite. It's about getting vulnerable, showing something half made or something that you haven't developed at all that you're presenting to be developed together.

19:14And it was hard for me. But the more I did it, the more you got just excited about what came out. as an artist you know you keep developing these ideas and the hardest thing it's just to surprise yourself sometime i mean you get so tired of smelling your own breath and so the minute that you have someone else that you trust and you know you're excited by what they bring to the table it just makes it really easy and exciting and it gets addictive in a way and so now i mean my things i look forward to the most are collaborations things that don't seem like they might work just give it a shot you never know if we look at the bookends of albums of your career starting off with the creek drank the cradle which people have compared to kind of like a it's a nick drake guy in his bedroom making this poignant rich collection of songs all the way up to february 27th and hen's which is rich and layered and you can hear all the creative energy coming from a lot of different people.

20:21Big vocal harmonies, there's strings, there's all kinds of stuff, orchestration that's happening. That's a big slider from It's Me to It's Everybody. I'm curious the line of thought or how you got there from one man show to such a big production. It's funny, like when people talk about the first record, they imagined that was like the fruition of all of my vision or whatever. It was real. If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe at designbetterpodcast.com slash subscribe. Once you do, you'll get access to every full-length episode, all ad-free, monthly AMAs with inspiring people in design and tech, and recordings of all our past AMAs.

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