Dragon's Den Tej Lalvani on Britain's Wealth Exodus

25:37I mean, you know, is it quite invasive in privacy? And he said, look, you know, of all the reality shows, this is factual entertainment and it's about business. So it's not really something to be too worried about. But he goes on balance. I thought it was the best thing I did. Right. So I thought, OK. And actually, as a result, I would say it's accelerated my life by 20 to 25 years, what I would have done otherwise. Oh, wow. Yeah. But by those. Well, if you look at in terms of the network and the connections that you make and the people that you meet, the amount that you learn. I mean, just from the pictures alone and seeing entrepreneurs and hundreds of pictures.

26:14Now, it's not good to judge people, but in terms of I'm judging people, I can read people a lot better when I can see what they're saying, because I'll see what they're saying in the show and I invested in them and what they said there. Now I realize maybe it was true or wasn't true. And so you're just analyzing people and you're sending questions to them. So people skills and those things, you know, in that environment, you improve in that. So I think there's just so many things I learned. and, of course, pushed boundaries for myself because I didn't necessarily want to be on TV. And it was something that, you know, it worked out well, I think, yeah.

26:45What did your dad think about you doing it? He was supportive, yeah. He was supportive at the time. You know, I've always loved the show. The family's always loved the show because I think it's such a great way to show people that you have an idea. You know, whoever you are, you can make it into a business. And it's something that now, even post-pandemic, everyone wants to be an entrepreneur. Yeah. So it's great. And who's the best dragon other than you? Who do you like the most? There can't be anyone. You could choose. Look, I think. Or who would you want to invest in your business? How's that?

27:15Well, the thing is, they're so diverse in terms of the skill set that they bring, which is why it makes it so interesting, because then that's why an entrepreneur has to choose, well, I'll go with Tej, I'll go with Peter, you know, or I'll go with Tuca if he can get office space. No, I'm joking. But Tuca is great because he actually spends a lot of time with the entrepreneurs. and he's quite generous with his time. And for him, the buzz in his new projects, new investments, you see his eyes light up. And so if someone wants that personal help and stuff, and he'll take them on board in his office and incubate them and really take care of them.

27:51And if you look at the skillset that Peter brings in terms of his distribution, digital, e-com, tech side of things, that's quite unique. Not many people can do that. So I would say it all depends on the business, who you want to go with. And that's why sometimes they either go with one person or they'll team up with two thinking there's a different skill set from the two dragons and that might add value to them. A big thank you to my sponsor Coinbase, a leading online cryptocurrency platform for buying, selling, trading, storing and staking cryptocurrency. I've said it before, but the system is broken.

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29:40So when you Google your name, the first thing that it auto searches for you is net worth. so when you google my name it has Rob Moore net worth, Rob Moore wife for some reason so I think Times Rich List has you worth 390 million how accurate is that? this episode is brought to you by Google Chrome you think you know a browser but Gemini and Chrome, that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense?

30:23There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. You know, I try not to do that. In fact, you know, I don't really like being on these rich lists and I've had conversations to say, can you take me off? Oh, wow. They won't do that. They'll just do what they want to do and that's fair enough. And, you know, but. Why don't you like being on those lists? Well, I mean, I just don't know. I mean, the same reason I just didn't really want to be on Dragon's Den or on the TV as such. But I feel my life is private generally and I enjoy what I do with my family.

31:01It's not about the net worth as such. And I guess most of my net worth is all tied up in the business. So does that mean it could be more or less if it's doing well or badly? Yeah, exactly. That's what it is. So, you know, if it's doing extremely well and growing a lot, then people would value it higher, the business as a multiple. But, you know, it's a private company, so it's not, you wouldn't know really what the value is as such. Isn't, though, your net worth a way of keeping the score and evaluating how well you're doing? Yeah, I mean, of course, everyone does want to build up the net worth and on the back of your mind you keep track of it and maybe you have a figure that you want to reach, someone wants to reach, you know, 50 million, 100 million, a billion or whatever it is, and then that's your sort of subconscious goal.

31:46But that's not your driving force for a business or an idea because, you know, you don't want to chase the money. You want to create value, then money knocks on your door, right? So ultimately your business has to be about creating that value and money will follow. But yes, you are keeping track, you know, ultimately, if you want to reach a certain figure or whatever it is. Yeah. And is there an amount that you, was there an amount you got to? Because for example, I don't think 1 million is enough now. I don't think with inflation and if you've got 40 years of life left, a million is enough. Because they say millionaire, but really being worth one million, is there a figure or an amount?

32:21I think when you look at people and entrepreneurs and social media, it's a billionaire status, right? People talk about billionaires. So a lot of people want to be billionaires. It depends what your needs are ultimately. Sometimes it could just be a figure that you want to get to and you might not even spend half of it. Like Warren Buffett, probably not spending any of his money. Right, yeah. It's just, I don't know how many hundred billions he's worth. But otherwise, it depends what you want. If you want to get a plane or a car or a boat or whatever, then you need to have X amount of money. If you don't need all that and you're happy just going on good holidays and being with the family, then maybe, you know, 10 million or something or whatever could be enough to do that.

33:01Or 20 million. I mean, it depends. Holidays are expensive now, aren't they? I'll tell you what. You've got a family. Yeah, it's not cheap. and the cost of hotels, the cost of travel, the flights. A four-star in London doubled in the last. I used to stay down at King's Cross Great Northern because it's quite nice, but it's not too big to stay there on my own. It went up from$300 a night, it's nearly$700 a night now. It is absolutely crazy. I mean, even holiday inns, I remember back in the day, there were like 40 quid and stuff like that, and now it's like hundreds of pounds. So you need to be worth$10 million just to pay for the hotel.

33:36Yeah, if you think about the cost of holidays that they are, and then if you're going during, you know, half-term, mid-term, everything's extortionate as well. And if you've got three kids now. Yeah, it's really expensive holidays. But I think people now, they enjoy the experiences and holidays versus buying expensive toys and stuff like that. And it's what really, I think, in life, those experiences are important that you spend with your family doing different activities and holidays. Yeah, but it depends. Different people like collecting different things. No. Amen. So you must have seen hundreds of bad pitches and some good pitches in the den.

34:16So could you give us the top three tips to create a great pitch? I think definitely be really prepared, right? Know your numbers because that always becomes a sticking point and they will grill you on that. So get that right. And I would say communicate your business in a short few sentences. so people can get it. And ultimately what you want to do is show that what you're presenting is something that's workable. If you've got proof, proof is in the pudding. If you've got evidence to show you've got a working business model, something that's worked, entrepreneurs, I mean, investors and dragons, they want to see how can I scale that?

34:55So if it's working already, can we put the gas on it? So try and show that, yeah, this is working and this test market, however small it is, I put X pounds in, I'm getting three pounds return. You know, that's always an exciting thing for investors to hear. Do you think in the UK especially, we're a bit shy or even resistant to selling? For sure. Culturally, the US are a lot more extrovert out there. In fact, you know, in your face, you know, here's the idea is how to sell. In the UK, everyone's a bit more reserved in terms of, you know, they don't want to be out there. And, you know, even the advertising, you look at the messaging, very different to the advertising you see out there versus over here.

35:36So you really have to learn to sell to have a successful business. And it's an important skill to have, I think. And not everyone has it. And some people are gifted with it, right? They can just talk, persuade, learn to sell. Some people, it's a real effort to do that. And, you know, it's important to understand how you do that. At least know who your customers really are, how you're going to target them, where they're based, What time of day, you know, what location And just try and focus on that And what messaging works for them And with my company it's interesting because You've got VitaPotics as the master brand But you've got these sub-brands Like Wellman, Wellwoman, Pregnacare That are sort of brands on their own And each of them are in a different market So marketing to a pregnant woman is very different Marketing to Wellman or a Wellbaby or a beauty supplement So you've got to keep on getting your thinking hat on What my messaging is going to be who the target market is for that.

36:31And so that's the really interesting part there. It's so diversified. And you have to know how to target them. Like for pregnant women, what I found is the first time most women ever take a vitamin is during pregnancy, right? And we've built the biggest brand in that particular area. So almost 80 % of pregnant women that buy a pregnancy supplement will buy Pregnicare. And so we've created a before, a during, and after version of that and how we target it. We work with charitable organizations. We work with midwives. We send 40 ,000 mailers out to them. We advertise. So you have to target the consumer in the right way.

37:10And the midwives, we know, spend a lot of time with pregnant mothers. So if you can get their attention and their trust, then they'll communicate it. So you have to work on different avenues. And it's all about selling either directly or indirectly. So have you got any top or universal tips on how to sell anything to anyone? I think simplicity and trying to show how that's going to add value to someone And change their life specifically And understand your customer And how that's going to improve their life or whatever and add value That's really important Because you could have the best product in the world People might know how it affects them or changes their lives in the world And again, having the best product but people not knowing about it Is also an issue So yeah, selling is key It doesn't mean you should sign up on every single selling seminar you see on TikTok.

38:02Of course. Yeah, yeah. You've used the word simplicity and concise a lot. It sounds to me like you're saying people too waffly, too distracted, chasing too many things, just not tight and succinct. Is that something that's got worse over the years? Is it because we're so distracted by everything? We're so overwhelmed with information. Everyone's completely distracted today. I mean, the minute you wake up in the morning, you've got your phone, you're looking through a hundred different things, and you're thinking about different things. You're travelling everywhere. You're multitasking. So everyone's distracted.

38:42And it's important just even otherwise just to simplify a product, a service. I like solving problems. So in my business, I like these challenges, how to make solutions. And invariably it comes down to simplifying the process And making something complex that people are doing in the business How can I simplify it? And so simplification for me is important And the other thing that's important I think generally If we're talking about life is learning and progressing And every day learning more, whatever it is Like I'll go home, get home, whether it's 9, 10 o 'clock at night And have dinner but then I'll go on YouTube and learn about things, whether it's different podcasts or interests.

39:27So for me, that's something I like to do, just learn. Before it was books and now it's more podcasts and stuff like that. Is the UK still a good place to do business with all the changes over the last five years, lockdown, everything, now labour come in, it feels like a bit of a scary time? Well, look, I mean, when I speak to people, a lot of people say that the UK has lost its charm, right? and you hear about these 11 ,000 odd millionaires leaving the UK. And that doubling every year, all going to Dubai. It's a concern because not only do they leave and then they don't employ the staff that they had over here, but you've got to imagine out of sight, out of mind.

40:08So if you're living in a different country, your investment focus and assets that you're building up are going to be in that region, not in the UK anymore. So that knock-on effect is going to be difficult. And also to re-attract these people back to your country, You're going to have to dial up the incentives so much That it's going to cost you a lot more Than having to pay a bit more effort To retain them in the first place So I think it is a concern And you know It's losing its competitive advantage And if you see I mean for me If a country is winning It needs to have sort of five things That I think to get right Number one is It's got to be efficient So less red tape bureaucracy It's got to have a good infrastructure, education, healthcare, roads, airports, etc.

40:55Safety is key. If you're paying 40 % to 45 % tax, your basic expectation as a citizen is safe to be able to walk on the streets, right? And then also it needs to enhance your, add value or add quality to your life. And finally, it's got to be progressive and a growth opportunity. You know, are other countries now having that? So these five things are important to bring competitiveness. And I would say other countries now are over-indexing. And if you look at, you know, the UAE and you're talking about Dubai, they're encouraging people and being more competitive in those areas. So of those five things you said, I can't at the moment see the UK competitive on any of those.

41:35It doesn't feel safe. The infrastructure feels broken. It's efficient. Yeah, lots of bureaucracy and red tape. I can't see really any innovation here. what do we do about this? I mean look you can think of it like a business right so the UK is the product right and the customer is the population and they're buying the UK product or they're paying taxes to buy the product every year and and what is it that you look for when you buy a product it's pretty much the same five things one is is it well is it enhancing your life adding value to it right is it you expect the basic thing expect to be safe.

42:17If you buy a food product, you don't want to be poisoned. You don't want your phone to explode. So that's an expectation. You want it to be reliable, to have a good infrastructure, like in a country. And, you know, you want it to be easy to use a product. So, you know, it's got to be efficient. So ultimately, this is about a brand, the British brand. And if you have negative publicity on that brand, it knocks the brand. It becomes less competitive. And if you look at your customers in a company, you'll have products that sell at a normal price. You'll have products that sell at a very high premium price, right?

42:49And so the people paying the premium price, the high taxpayers or the millionaires paying a high amount of tax, if they leave, you're either going to have to double the population to pay the taxes to make up for it, or you're going to have to charge more for the existing people. But ultimately, if I'm buying a product every year, I want to have innovation, right? If you're buying an iPhone 14, 15, 16, it's got to have new features. So if you're paying taxes every year, you want to see that country improving, whether it's better airports, better infrastructure, that's not happening. And if you're charging the high net worth individuals the price of a Ferrari, but supplying them a Skoda, they end up going to buy it the next day, are they?

43:28No. They end up going to buy it next year. That's a good analogy. So it is going to have an effect long term. And the point I came to earlier was that to get them back is going to be five times more costlier to provide the incentives rather than taking the right action now to retain them. Well, I was in Dubai recently. I interviewed Supercar Blondie there. She said to me, I've not paid tax for 20 years, and now there's 5 % VAT and 9 % Corp, but that's pretty much it. There's no income tax. She said they're issuing these golden visas whereby if you can come and bring a business or you're a creator or something, they'll help you find a studio.

44:03They'll basically expedite you coming to Dubai. It just seems like it's a whole, hey, we're entrepreneurial. We want all the entrepreneurs to come. They must be loving the exodus from the UK. Of course. I mean, because ultimately, you know, and them charging taxes makes sense. You know, 9 % for corporation tax. It's fair. It's fair. And, you know, I think it's a good thing. And it's safe there? I think there's very few places you could say are safe like that, where you can just walk out with your watches or leave your stuff around. A bit of false sense of security when you travel outside and you get accustomed to that, I'm sure.

44:38Yeah. But people are right, you know. And the thing is, the leadership has to be quite visionary, and you have to be very strong in execution. And if you focus on those five areas in terms of execution, that's where you get to because they're quite receptive as to what's going to make things work. And when you sit down with the government and they're like, how can we improve things? That's the attitude you've got to have. And as a business owner, that's what you want to do. How can I improve my product? What can I do to make it better? And you do that, automatically you invite more people to come into your country.

45:11And the thing with the UK, because a lot of the decisions are by committees, by, you know, people are afraid of criticism. People who've never run a business before. So it's the political, if you have a political mindset, it's quite difficult. You really want someone who doesn't care about the politics and who just wants to sort the country out for the good of it and not being worried about it and criticised and say, look, this is what we need to do. We need to take strong action in these areas and have the power to do it. A lot of the time you don't have the power because you have other parts of the government that are going to be thinking the opposite.

45:42So is the problem more the political system as opposed to the party itself? I think it's a bit of both. I mean, dictatorship can be the worst or it could be the best if you've got a great leader. Well, in Dubai, it looks like it's good. Yeah, exactly. Could be the best or worst thing for a country. The upside of dictatorship is you could have a 30-year dictator so they could do a 30-year vision. And if they're a benevolent dictator, which people in Dubai say he is, and here you probably know you're getting four years. Yeah, and I think you've also got to set yourself up. It's not just about having one leader in the country.

46:15You need to make sure the people around you either have the knowledge because you can't do everything. You've got to outsource certain aspects in different departments and you have to have people with an entrepreneur mindset in those departments trying to run them efficiently. But Labour have none of those. None of them have even run a business. Yeah, it is. Would you agree with that? It is like running a business. And, you know, if you don't have that mindset, it's going to be hard. And the thing is, the longer you leave it, the worse it's going to get. And you need to make strong changes. Otherwise, you're going to have this exodus continuing and, you know, people complaining and it's not great, really, the situation.

46:53I talk about this a lot on the show because, you know, you've worked really hard. You employ a lot of people. I work hard, employ a lot of people. We've put our flag in the ground on the UK. okay, I'm not leaving, but if they make it any worse, I might be forced to. And like you, so many of my friends are leaving. And I feel like we need to, you know, we need to push back on this and talk more about this. It is, and it's not just the wealthy people that are leaving. It's your middle class and everyone that are leaving as well, because they're finding opportunities there, because people are hiring them, whether it's your personal trainers or whoever, they're all heading out and leaving because people go where opportunities are too.

47:34So if you lose that as well, then you're not left with much And it doesn't, you know, it's not an attractive place to stay So like a huge amount of immediate action must be taken I think in the UK to set it right And get the right people in the government Who have the experience of trying to do entrepreneurial things To focus on that And, you know, there's a certain threshold that you need to work out If you charge too much tax, people are not going to pay tax If you charge no tax, it's bad as well You've got to have the right amount The Laffer curve. Yeah, exactly. The Laffer curve, 0 % tax, 0 % tax.

48:09100 % tax, 0 % tax because everyone leaves. Yeah. And they must know. Surely they must study this stuff and know with the Laffer curve, there's an optimum. Yeah. And they're way beyond it, aren't they? It is. And I think sometimes they do things for political benefit or for the population. As in personal gain. Well, to put an image out there, we're doing this. To get votes. To get votes. Yeah. And really Are they really getting votes from it I think the population Would much rather have a country That's sorted out And doesn't have issues And you just got to do Do what the right thing is Because you know The whole non-dom thing How much are they going to actually earn By doing what they're doing It was a political thing And as a result You've got a lot of people Leaving the country And I don't think They expected that at all Because people have been Talking about leaving Yeah But now people are putting Their money where their mouth is And it's going to be And I think they're recognizing it because they're trying to retract on a few things you'd have read in the press and what they do.

49:06I don't know, but you know, it's, it's about focusing on those things to be competitive. If you are a political party that fundamentally believes in state over capitalism, and you believe that it is the state that generates all the wealth, the Marxist view, is that essentially just a, a disdain for entrepreneurship? I mean, do they actually want entrepreneurship? No, I think it's very difficult to have both, right? You're either that or you have to have an entrepreneurial mindset. It's very difficult with the principles because they're core values in each one. And to try and do both is quite difficult.

49:50You have to have a compromise. Of course, you want to take care of the labor force and you have to have things that protect them. Yeah, they do the work. Yeah, exactly. So you have to do that in the right way, like you would your company employees, right? If you don't treat them well, they're going to leave. And accordingly, you have to have the right fair packages, the right HR, the management, and you have to manage the country in that way. So take care of your people at the same time, but you can't go overboard the other way because then there's going to be no people earning the money for it, right?

50:20Yeah. So if you had Kia Starmazir, if you were his number two advisor and he pretty much would do anything you say, other than quit, what would you say? Yeah, I would say you've got a whole bunch of successful people and entrepreneurs who've got nothing to gain from it. There's no agenda, but they just want the right thing. As in they want to help and they love the country and they've got experience. Yeah, and that's the problem. A lot of people have got agendas when they come into government. You want someone who doesn't want a agenda, just wants to sort it out and do the right thing. And you'll see a big difference.

50:48But you also need a strong leadership that can execute and make difficult decisions without worrying about being criticised. And there's few people that would do that in this country. Yeah, wow. And then what about reform? Do you think reform might be a better solution? They've gained a lot of, you know, Nigel Farage, gained a lot of popularity. They seem to be entrepreneurs. Do you think that they could be a solution? It could be. I mean, to get to that level of threshold to win is not easy, right? And it could take a long time to do that. You're better off trying to get people and the leaders and the big parties to figure out and see what can be done.

51:31Because the longer you leave it, it's just going to get worse. And, you know, it's a really sad situation because when you look at it 10, 15, 20 years ago, the UK had so much going for it, right? And it's, what can you do? You have to make big changes. What would you say in the world right now is the biggest problem that if you could magically solve it and it would be gone? I think one of the issues, and that's a worry moving forward, is the big divide between you have the very rich and the people who don't have much. And you just see that every year increasing. And how do you solve that problem, right?

52:16Because people are working hard and making their money and growing. you know they deserve that to have that money but but how do you solve that issue moving forward because you don't want a situation which is going to be a disaster and you know where it's going to end otherwise well it ends in revolution doesn't it and it happens cyclically through history you seem to have the most peace when the gap between the rich and the poor are that is the smallest and the worst when it's the biggest but i think what a lot of people like to do is blame the rich. Why don't we go there? What is the potential solution?

52:50Because tax is supposed to be the way to redistribute. Because we have a tax system whereby the more you earn, the more you pay, and the more you earn, the higher percentage you pay. So the tax system is designed to redistribute from rich to poor. People blame the rich, but the government is the redistribution vehicle. So isn't the government at fault? I think the policy is upside down in a way Because the richer you get The smarter you're going to be In terms of making the money work for you Are you going to pay 60 % tax on your money There's going to be other ways around it Or you've made the wealth already You have assets that are generating cash And you have structures around them So you can't just take the money from the rich And give it to people who don't have it There's got to be a way where People who've made wealth There's a fair way of getting that If they're doing certain things Whether it's on assets Or whether I think you can't be charging 60 % tax Or 50 % tax Especially when you've got places like Dubai etc.

53:59or UAE Where there's no tax or very little And they're providing a great infrastructure So you have to be sensible Because there is a matter It's good to pay taxes, it's fine to pay it But as long as you're getting the basic infrastructure or the safety, that's what you want. So I think you need to be able to incentivize people and bring the tax levels down so that people are willing to pay and not having to worry about the headache of structures. Yeah, I'll pay 20%, 25 % tax, you know, all day long, capital gains or income tax. And then you'll have a big percentage of that coming in and attracting people.

54:32And the stamp duty for real estate, I think that's a big thing, that if they sort that out and bring that down, and then just the international residents to charge them a higher stamp duty would make sense. So, I mean, I haven't really thought about this, but there are a lot of things that you can do quickly, I think, to sort things out like this because the country is in debt, right? And, you know, COVID wasn't a good time because a lot of cash was just given out. Yeah. And we pay for that. People forget. I like it or I don't like it. But, you know, when you see government spending, there is no government spending.

55:03There's only taxpayer spending and taxpayers are us. Yeah. So it is a problem. That's where inflation's come in and a whole load of stuff. I mean, the UK has had a hard time. I mean, you've had the pandemic, you've had Brexit, you've had a lot of things hitting hard. But that's why you need a strong government that's willing to do the right thing, not being worried about being criticized. And if you have that, there's still a chance, there's still a hope, but it needs to be done right now and you need to get on with it. Because as I said, getting those people back, it's going to be almost impossible unless you're offering massive incentives to do that.

55:39I don't see that happening very quickly. Well, a friend of mine, he's a billionaire. He just left for Monaco and he was in Monaco talking to someone who left 20 years ago, was one of the richest people in the UK, left for Monaco. And he was trying to move his affairs to come back. And they wanted a 50 million pound re-entrance fee back into the country. So it's basically the opposite of what you said. instead of trying to bring them back, they want to charge them 50 million pounds to come back. I don't know. I mean, look, the Trump golden visa, right? Was it$5 million and you don't pay taxes on your worldwide income?

56:19Something like that? Yeah. So that's an interesting one, right? So you're getting people to come into the country and you're like, okay, I'll tax you on all your earnings in the UK or the US, but anything else you make internationally, I won't. And so that is an attractive thing For billionaires Because they're making money Outside whatever International businesses And they're happy to pay taxes here The more high net worth individuals You can invite into the country The more they're going to spend And the more they're going to focus their time If they're here What's the next real estate project What's the business opportunity There's so much more that will go into the economy Everyone's happy to pay tax in the local country.

57:02But I think a lot of the billionaires, they don't want to pay tax on the worldwide income, which is why something needs to be done immediately to sort it out. And I think, you know, by you raising these topics in podcasts is good because people talk about it and then hopefully the right people listen to it and recognize that something does have to be done because it is a real problem, I think. Yeah, I agree. And we talked about the wealth divide and, you know, what we can do with the really rich. But what about – it feels a lot like there's a lot of welfare in the UK at the moment and there's a lot of money being spent on welfare.

57:41And one of my TikTok channels was blowing up a couple of years ago and I would walk around the streets of Peterborough and I'd just talk to all the homeless people because I buy them coffees and sandwiches all the time and they know me there locally. And I would ask them just straight out, why don't you get a job? And they'd all say the same thing, there's no point. Because I get given a place to live and if I go back to work, I get less than being on benefits. Right, yeah. Can't we get, you know, all the people who are out of work or on welfare, or, you know, people that sort of, you know, the lower incomes, can't we give them apprenticeships, you know, really good manual labour?

58:15We need all this stuff and get them self-worth and proud to work again. Won't that help grow the economy? I think it's really important to have that entrepreneurship. I mean, I'm a visiting professor at University of Westminster, And so that's one of the largest business schools in the UK. And over 50 % want to be entrepreneurs now. And they're improving their, you know, because I studied at University of Westminster back in the day. And things have changed when it comes to business in terms of syllabus, academics. And you need to bring that into the education system. Like they're setting up a institute now for entrepreneurship and a place where incubation can happen for university students to set up their companies and provide support.

58:57So things like this are important, especially for university students graduating, but also to train and to skill people and to get, but that requires investment, right? And so you need to ensure that you protect your own country first, to ensure, then rather than using the money for other reasons internationally. Yeah, yeah. And so that's what the US is doing. They're focusing on their own country and bringing tariffs in. And if you want to trade, you know. So I think the UK has to start thinking about protecting itself and its own country and then use that money, which is being probably used for not.

59:36There was a time when you could do that. When you're a rich country, you can afford to do this. But when you're not, then you need to conserve. It's like a company, right? If you're going to give away free cash and your own business is suffering, you need to stop that and invest in your company and in the product and to get it right. That's what the UK needs to do. use all the money it has internally now to sort itself out, infrastructure, cut the bureaucracy efficiencies. I mean, getting things done, the amount of time it takes when it should be a lot quicker. But that requires a sea change and it requires a very strong government who's willing to execute and take action.

1:00:10And, you know, do we have that? No comment. So you have a very large vitamins business, so you must know the pharmaceutical industry well. How much power does the pharmaceutical industry have? A lot of power, right. And so we're like an independent vitamin business that's grown up. You know, our competitors are all the big pharma companies. Initially, they would try and compete, and we'd hear negative press about vitamins. In the end, they brought up all the vitamin companies, right, the big pharma companies. So first they try and criticise them out of business, then they just buy them. Bought them out.

1:00:55Most of our competitors are being bought out. Seven Seas, Centrum, they're all owned by big pharma companies now, right? Right, wow. So we're the only independent vitamin company left here. And so we're competing against a huge amount of resources when you're talking about, you know, even the multinationals like the P &Gs of the world who now own some of the big vitamin companies. and so we've got to do things quicker, better, and innovate faster to be able to stay ahead of the game and build brand. I mean, we've got about 28 % market share now in the UK for VMS and that's almost two, three times our nearest competitor, which is a big company.

1:01:35But that's only been through consistency year in, year out, building, focusing. And the worst advice I got is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I mean, you need to keep fixing it even if it's not broke. And that's the constant improvement, the constant innovation. And what can I do that a big pharma company can't do quickly in terms of making decisions, in terms of building relationships with retailers and stuff like this? So it's been an exciting, incredible journey to get to where we are. And now it's about just doing more of it, really. Has any big pharma tried to buy you out? Yeah, over the last couple of decades, many times, big farmers have come, all the big ones, all the multinational food companies.

1:02:22So they've all approached us to buy. And, you know, I mean, at the time I wasn't even focused on it. I would just like put the emails in the bin that would come in. And my staff would knew as well. They would be like, they wouldn't send it to me. Do you have no interest in selling or no interest in selling to them? Well, no, it wasn't about to them or anything like that. It was just, I wasn't really interested. I mean, you know, now's just time for the business. And so strategically, there's opportunities where maybe I might not be able to grow in certain markets. Like the US is a huge market.

1:02:54That's a very difficult one. And so with the right partnership, might make sense to do that. And, you know, I've never looked at acquisitions before. I've always grown organically. So every product that we've launched has been our own. And now I'm thinking maybe there's areas that I could get into, which I don't really want to build a brand around it. I could acquire a company, do it better, launch it internationally, you know, things like that. So I'm looking at things quite differently now. Right. And do you think the pharma industry, I guess you could say the same about banks and other big industries, you know, are they really serving humanity?

1:03:31You know, are we getting healthier? Yeah, what do you think about that? So look I think Medicines and pharma definitely have an important Role to play and they you know If you have a problem They will try and solve it with The medicines and there's research behind it Clinical studies but I think moving Forward people want to have a preventative approach Right so with supplements and Nutrition you want to have a better Quality of life it's not just about living longer It's about living longer with a better quality Of life right and so If your organs can function better in a more optimum way with the right nutrition you're less susceptible to get ill and have issues so i think you know the pandemic was an eye-opener for people to think let me have a stronger immune system let me be healthier and therefore i think there's a lot more now with nutrition and supplements to play right yeah because essentially supplements like food but but having the right vitamins and minerals that help your organs function in a more optimum way so that you know overall as a body you're a healthier human being.

1:04:33And I think that approach is definitely taking off. And now it's about personalization, right? Yeah. And it's been done before, but never right. Because all you get today is like six, seven pills with your name on it. And that's not personalized. You really want one tablet that can really be customized for you. But how do you do that at scale? It's quite expensive to make one tablet just for you. And then how do you find out what you're deficient in? There's two methods now. One is a DNA test. And that's the easiest. is less friction, just do a swab. But all it tells you is what you're susceptible to be deficient in.

1:05:05It doesn't tell you currently what you're deficient in. Whereas a blood test is the most accurate because it can tell you right now you have less vitamin D or vitamin E, but not everyone wants to do a blood test and a prick test, right? So it's a combination of the most accurate would be the blood to work out the personalized supplement for you. So that's what I'm trying to look at now and move into it because you already have the brand like Wellman and Wellwoman having a well-man personalized, a well-woman personalized. You're buying a max, then you buy a personalized version, which is really exciting because I've sort of figured out how we can do that at scale and have a product, you know, that's catered for someone individually.

1:05:43Wow. So we do a final round on the show called The Disruptors Round. And this is kind of more of a quick fire. But if you want to go deep, go deep. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken in your life? I think in terms of my business was launching in the US. I think that was a big risk, yeah. And it wasn't successful. Did you put a lot of money behind it? We put quite a bit of money behind it, and I was about to put a whole lot more, bank the whole business on it. Really? Yeah, and thankfully I didn't. I decided to come out of stores and take the product and go online digitally, because it's considered the graveyard of British companies So many people on the show have said that.

1:06:30Just because you can run a great business in the UK, you'd die in America. It's so exciting. I mean, you're talking 10, 20x market size. But, and it so happened that, you know, we were lucky. We had the relationship with Boots and Walgreens. 7 ,000 stores overnight, everything was ready. And all of a sudden, each state is like a country, right? Each state is like a country. So trying to get to those people, the attention. and you can blow 10, 20, 30 million dollars and probably have nothing to show for it. And I know good vitamin companies that have pretty much gone bankrupt trying to do that.

1:07:04And so that was a risky time because how did I deal with the stock? What did I do? But it all came down to the right negotiations with the retailers. And the problem is, when you go in America, where you get killed is when you sign the deal before you even enter the store. Oh, wow. Because a lot of the time they have these terms where you've got to give X amount of free product. we've got to take the product back, you've got to do this, and that's how a lot of companies end up going bust, right? So I had to ensure that, you know, I wouldn't take the stock back, this would happen, that would happen.

1:07:35So literally you're dead before you go in a lot of the times. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. But you're still going to try and go again. I am, yeah.

1:08:09You can't give up as an entrepreneur. You can't give up. So it's try a different angle, which is what we're doing at the moment. So we'll see. Yeah. And what's your most brutal life lesson? You know, what's interesting is when I grew up, I ended up going to 10 different schools by the time I was 16 years old. And it was as a result of my parents getting divorced, moving between the UK and India. And when I lived about eight years without my parents, I was living with my aunt in India. And every time I would switch schools, it was a whole different ballgame, making new friends and learning different syllabuses.

1:08:48And it was challenging. and you're thinking, you know, this change and adversity can wear you down. And it was crushing at some points. And then at the end, I took the approach that you just have to embrace change as it comes and always look at it like a positive. There's an opportunity here. It's going to happen anyway, right? You're going to have to deal with it. And I think that was the sort of life lesson I would say I learned to handle things from a young age. Wow, that must have really helped you in business. It did, yeah, because you have to have resilience, right? And no matter what comes at you, you've got to try and push forward and deal with it.

1:09:31And you got the lessons as a kid. As a kid, yeah, and I never would expect any kid to do that, but it's that. And then travelling from a young age at seven years old on my own. So it taught me a lot and having to adapt to different situations. I think as entrepreneurs, you have to adapt. What would you say is your biggest regret? I'd say, you know, when you talk, people ask this question, what would you tell your younger self, right? And I would say going a lot more by intuition, what I felt, than sometimes trying to listen to experts. And, okay, there's two types of experts, people who talk and who don't have the credibility to back it up, and then there's the real experts.

1:10:10And so generally having a lot more confidence in your own intuition doing it, Because every time I've looked at it, every time I've thought of intuition, and I just see that that was the right decision to do that. So, I mean, I've been doing that for quite some time now, but I wish I had done that early on. So trust yourself. Really trust yourself, yeah. Even when you start, because you've got intuition now, because you've got experience of many decades. But when you start as an entrepreneur, can you still rely on that intuition? Well, I mean, you can, because when you're starting out with a business, you've got to really believe in your particular product or idea or whatever it is and be completely relentless about it.

1:10:47You can make mistakes along the way, that's fine. And at some point you realize maybe it's working or not working. Some entrepreneurs wait too long before realizing it's not a successful thing. And that's a difficult one, right? Because people say, you know, you need to know when you're doing the wrong thing. Then at the same time they say, you should never stop. So which one is it? And there's no right answer to that one. It's, you know, you have to be practical. At the same time, you've got to be pig-headed and you've got to be insanely driven and stubborn at what you do. So, yeah. It's a good point, that.

1:11:24You know, no when to quit, never quit. Never quit. So it's a tough one. And I don't know the answer to that one. But different situations, I guess. In hindsight, it's always that you should have quit earlier. That was a rubbish idea. or I think you have to look if it's gaining traction, then try and pivot a little bit and keep pivoting until you do. So rather than full quit, part quit. Part quit, yeah. Just change the direction. Because if you've got a product that you think is amazing and then you're trying to sell it to this customer, maybe A, it's the wrong customer, or maybe B, your product needs to be slightly tweaked to think about it.

1:12:09And so therefore I think you have to have that mindset of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The opposite of that. Right. Keep fixing it if it's broke. If it ain't broke anyway. Yeah. And then you'll probably figure it out. Yeah. And this show is called Disruptors. So what does this word disruptive mean to you? It means that today even the disruptors are getting disruptive.

1:12:32It is what you want to do as a business, right? Every entrepreneur's dream now is to create a business that's disrupting what's going on at the moment. because that's when you can get massive traction without much cost because like the Uber did for the taxi industry, a disruptive business, there's nothing like it. And it challenges the status quo, which is what you should be doing and always rethinking. Why do it this way? Is there another way of doing it that's simpler? A lot of people just don't think that. They just continue with the same path. Can you do it differently? Can you do it simpler?

1:13:04Amen. Tej, this has been great. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thanks. silver has crashed it's back to its price in 1974 and i'm going to buy more and if you'd like to learn how to invest and build multiple streams of recurring income i recommend you join money.school money.school is my global financial education platform to help as many people on this planet get better financial knowledge for less than four starbucks coffees a month there are hundreds of hours of courses resources and masterclasses going back a decade to teach how to make manage and multiply money and gain financial freedom.

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