Alexi Wasser

0:00Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

1:02Ready to think outside rows and columns? Start building faster at mongodb.com slash build.

1:22Hi, come up.

1:28Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Alexei Wasse. Oh my goodness. All right. Hello, Bella Freud. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes? I am wearing a uber fancy Uniqlo. I don't know if you've ever heard of Uniqlo. Unique glow, cashmere, black cashmere crew neck sweater, of which I have multiples. Because when I like something, I guess I have abandonment issues. I buy like 10 of them because I wear one thing. I'm very into uniform. I am wearing a Nilly, correct me if I'm wrong on the pronunciation, Nilly Latan. Do you know the pronunciation? I know who you mean.

2:11Nilly Lotan. I'll take the chance. Nilly Lotan belt, gold hardware. And then I'm wearing, I'm wearing a pair of high-waisted Reformation jeans, straight leg jeans, No stretch in the denim. And I just say, yeah, this is all I wear. And then underneath I'm wearing some crew neck ribbed shirt. And then I'm wearing a pair of flat ballet flats. Usually I wear Gucci loafers, but I'm wearing these new ballet flats that I got from this company called Margo because they make shoes that fit my very long foot. I have a long foot. I like to talk about it because I'm a tall girl, 5 '11 1⁄2". and I used to be so filled with shame about the size of my feet.

2:55So now I won't shut the fuck up about it. Now I'm talking about my long foot because if I didn't have this long foot, I tip over. And yeah, they make shoes in my size anyway. But yeah, uniform. I wear the same thing all the time. I'm glad you wear a jean with no stretch because I hate stretch. Me too. It looks so cheap, doesn't it? It feels horrific. Yeah. I really don't like it. you're a writer and a filmmaker and you've just released your first feature film called messy in which you also star and i wondered why you decided to star in it to act in it as well oh my goodness um why did i decide to star in it i decided to star in it yes i did all those things thank you for doing all this research i can't believe it um i don't know if i'm gonna be your most anxious guest on this couch i probably knew the therapy the most but uh why did I decide to star in it because it's a very personal story I made it for a hundred thousand dollars I had had all these other projects that never went that were more expensive and then I thought fuck this are we led a curse on this show and I thought I'm going to write my own indie movie and that's what I and I'm going to it's like a puzzle to be solved how can I make a feature film for a hundred thousand dollars so I wrote this very kind of personal story about you You know, I refer to it as a neurotic sex romp comedy based on my life but heightened.

4:19So I decided to star in it because, you know, the character has her tits out a lot. And I thought, I don't want to do this to another actress. So I'm going to do this. So it's me going on all these mortifying dates with my boobs out, having simulated sex and finding myself in, yeah, embarrassing situations that may or may not have been based on real life. I mean, I love the film so much. And I was at a fashion dinner and I heard people talking between themselves about you. And then I asked, I heard some sort of trigger words of interest. And I asked about it and they said, yeah, there's this girl.

5:00She's really cool. She's made this film. And I got your Instagram handle at the dinner, looked up the trailer and thought, oh my this is just brilliant and it it's really beautifully made and shot and you you did everything you oh my god bella you wrote it you directed it and you're in it and um also the rhythm of how you speak is so engaging and fun and and i wondered when did you start when did that start your wild curiosity and your innocence about how you express yourself oh my Like I have a wild curiosity and innocence in the way I express myself. Yes. I love it. Oh, my God. Wait, by the way, what were the trigger words?

5:45What were the trigger words that the people said that made you like the thing? And then I'll answer your questions. I'll stop asking you questions. Probably sexual rom-com. Good. Okay, good. I mean, I don't know if I'm even going to answer this right, But I just feel like I'm not a chill person, as the kids say. I'm not a relaxed person. I'm self-conscious. I'm neurotic. I overthink everything. I experience a lot of internal suffering, especially when I'm dating or when I'm in love or when I'm trying to be in love. and I think like the whole I think the whole thesis of the movie is about a girl who

6:35is the most uncomfortable and miserable when she's in love and yet she can't stop looking for love you know so and that's how I kind of live my life so my coping mechanism is humor and so I think like I wrote this movie I don't even know if I'm answering the question correctly I've always just written written makes writing makes me feel better writing helps me like work through all my turmoil and I love framing any experience I go through I like framing it where I'm the butt of the joke because it makes me laugh because I feel like when I'm in a mortifying humiliating disappointing situation which I you know have experienced many a time dating and having sex and falling in love or throwing myself out into the world the only way I can keep myself from like wanting to curl up and die or something is by like zooming outside of the situation and being like oh my god I can't believe this happened this is hilarious how can I retell it to other people so that we all laugh about it and then I'm laughing about it and I don't feel like as gutted as I did immediately so that's always just how I've been like I've yeah I've always been that's just my coping mechanism it's my favorite thing to do and then my goal with what I write is to make people feel less alone, to make people laugh, and then for me to just be able to laugh about the whole thing.

8:02And then also find my people because I really like it if I write a thing or even having made this movie. If another person comes up to me and says, oh my God, I went to the same thing. It's crazy. I go, oh my God, I'm not alone. So I've made this person feel less alone. I feel less alone. I found my people who can relate. And then I realized we're all just suffering. I don't know. Because you started a blog called Boy Crazy in which you describe yourself as oversharing about all the things that you just mentioned, relationships and uncomfortable dates and sexual experiences. And what does oversharing mean to you?

8:41oh my god what does oversharing mean to me i feel like especially with the men i date or maybe the way people are brought up or how we're supposed to live our life you're supposed to give the impression that everything's okay and that you're you know you're composed and everything's fine and uh and that is not how I live my life so my way of like so yeah oversharing is just like god I gotta stop it maybe I gotta stop on this podcast today or else I'm gonna reveal too much uh I mean it's interesting because I think I'm the opposite I'm like a withholding person I go into a terrible panic and and I've always thought of myself that I could hold a burning coal without crying out or saying anything.

9:36Really? It's like the idea of oversharing is so alarming. But in the end it's the same. I'm as anxious as maybe what you think you are oversharing. I'm as anxious saying nothing because it's all going on inside me and I'm worrying whether I've said too much or too little. I'm much better. But But, you know, that's been a sort of torment, the kind that you describe of feeling unbelievably. You sound like the men I date, right? But this is good because maybe you like the movie because, again, I can be the person, you know, the main character in this movie, in this first feature film I made where you can go, yeah, I don't say it all.

10:26I bottle it up. But that is exactly what I'm thinking. I'm worried about my stomach growling. I'm feeling devastated that the guy isn't behaving or my love interest is not behaving the way I want him to or I'm being rejected, whatever. Yeah, my way of dealing with all that stuff, all the disappointment and the suffering and the like, oh, why aren't they behaving the way I want them to? Why aren't I not feeling fulfilled? why am I I go external with it and it all comes out of my mouth which I really am trying to get a handle on because the funny thing is or maybe it's not funny at all but uh I I attract withholding men and it's no accident because they like it's like too what is it yin and yang I don't know and it's yeah I don't even know what the point of that is but yeah I attract so I feel like I've got to meet we're all trying to meet in the middle the withholding people want to uh get out of their shell a bit I'm trying to learn how to like you know not devour them like what'd you say you know what I mean like we're supposed to it's supposed to be a beautiful dance you come together that's my old therapist that I should probably go back to seeing my therapist but you know this will be the step towards that but uh yeah but one someone once told me that um when I when I was learning about attachment theory or something.

11:53Yeah, attachment theories and the different styles. And she said a way of avoiding intimacy is to be drawn to somebody who is an avoidant. And then you can be avoidant too because you're avoiding intimacy by going for something that isn't available, which made me feel a tiny bit better at the time because the notion of being more avoidant and - Is cooler, right? Now it seemed to have morphed into being more avoidant, which I don't know. I want to be more avoidant. Yeah, I don't think I am either. I'm just less, I'm less anxious. You're way cooler than me. Are we allowed to say, you give me great dating advice, but that's for when the camera's not rolling, but whatever.

12:40Are we done? because one of the things I resonated with with Messi is her also her intermittent calls to daddy who never picks up and your father was a photographer Julian Wasser who took some of the most amazing photographs of modern history actually of contemporary figures including the picture of naked Eve Babbitt playing chess with Duchamp and Joan Didion leaning against the white Corvette. And I wondered, were you a daddy's girl? And what does that mean to you? Oh my God, was I a daddy's girl? I think so. The funny thing is, I think I'm, my dad passed away a couple of years ago and now I'm in charge of his photo estate.

13:28And the weirdest thing is, I'm dressing more and more like my dad because my dad used to wear high-waisted black Levi's and a belt and like an Hermes belt and like Gucci loafers and button-down shirts. And most of the time I'm wearing like a button-down shirt. Anyway, so it's funny that after he passed away, I'm like dressing exactly like my dad's. That's so weird. But was I a daddy's girl? I think I was. Yeah, like up into a certain point. Believe it or not, I had a complicated relationship with my dad. and yeah I think I had an enmeshed relationship with my dad I don't know what your relationship with your dad was like none of my business this is uh but yeah I was he was like my best friend and then I think when I hit like puberty and I had my own personality or I developed my own sense of self or wanted like freedom and independence I think it was like that's yeah I had a bizarre relationship with my dad it was interesting but I'm so similar to him and uh and I loved him more in what way I am I'm very opinionated I am not relaxed I'm not chill I'm uh yeah I'm just really specific and and was he like that with you was he exacting of his expectation of you I think so god this feels out of control this podcast I don't know where we're to go with this.

14:52Sorry, that's what happens. My inner monologue is my outer monologue. Oh my God, it's got to stop. Okay. Yeah, he was really exacting with me. I think like, you know, and yet he did right by me because now I get to be in charge of his photo estate and I'm learning more about him now that he's passed away and going through all of his stuff. And that's a cool thing when a parent passes away and having to go through all of his storage stuff and his old journals and this, that, and the other. And now I'm like getting to know my dad, you know, after he's passed away. And I love him so much, even though he was a kooky character that was often difficult to be around, especially being his daughter, because everything's so much heavier and more intense and wanting approval, or why isn't he acting the way I want him to act, and blah, blah, blah.

15:37And now I'm like, whatever age I am, and I'm thinking, oh my God, he's gone, who cares nobody gets a manual for how to be a parent and if I met him at a bar I'd probably think he was such a charming funny cool interesting guy who was like you know who's completely politically incorrect and making wild jokes and stuff so which is how I am I don't know I'm a loud loud mouth and opinionated and anyway and I respect his work a lot so I am a daddy's girl as complicated as the relationship was. And your mom was in a band called Precious Metal. Oh, my God. My mom was in a band called Precious Metal and a band in the 70s called Promises.

16:21Yeah. Because there was a big age difference between them, and I wondered how they dressed. Oh, how did they dress? Oh, that's so funny, because they would get in arguments about that. Oh, my God. Expose my mom watching this. She's like, what are you doing? tell no one. No. Yeah, they're almost like 25 years apart in age and they met on the Sunset Strip. I think they met on like, I don't know where they met, like the Roxy or the Whiskey or the Troubadour, wherever they met. Troubadour was on Santa Monica Boulevard. But anyway, yeah, they met and I think my dad was outside drinking a gin and tonic, smoking a cigarette and my mom walked up and I think he was like, oh, look at this hot babe.

17:02I don't know, something about her big boobs or something. I don't know, whatever. And he made out with my mom. And then it was on and they were together for six years. And how did she dress? I think she, I think my dad wanted her to dress differently. He was probably turned on by the sexy, youthful, free way in which she dressed. But then I think he would give her grief for what she wore and wanted her to be more, I don't know, I got to call my mom. I'm due for a phone call. I think he wanted her to dress more appropriately as he was trying to suck the life out of her and control her in their weird fucked up relationship.

17:38But yeah. Yeah. But he would have suits made all the time and gabardine suits and he'd go get them made and, you know, monogrammed shirts and just all very like classic whatever. And my mom was like, I think like ripped fishnets and she made her own pants and. Wow. And I don't know. It's so funny. my mom she'll like I'll give her clothes and then even to this day and she'll like cut them or do something to them and I'm like how did you manage to turn this thing that I thought was chic that would serve you well and like you know and then may turn it into this crazy thing that I never imagined it could be and then I'm like it makes her happy but yeah they dress differently because it sounds like your parents were the kind of people that other people think are cool but are really hard to live with.

18:25And I wondered if you had any embarrassment about them. If I had any embarrassment about my parents? Of course. Oh my God. Yes. Oh my God. Well, yeah. Cause both of them were like, Oh my God, where does the embarrassment start and end? Nowhere, everywhere. Oh God. Was there one in particular who you were most like self-conscious about? I mean, God, the way my mom dressed, I didn't like it if she didn't wear, this makes makes me sound like an asshole. If my mom didn't wear lipstick, like a bold lip color, I was so furious. I'd be like, I just wouldn't even want to talk to her. I don't know. That's a me problem.

19:03That's not really on my mom. No, it's interesting though, because it's about, I think it's about being too visible for your comfort sort of level because of how unstable things are. Because in the end, well, I don't know, that's my take on it. that's such a good point well like i had my personal thing with my mom where it was like she was wild and kooky and rock and roll but but yeah i was like oh my god yeah don't draw attention i just want to be normal i want to be accepted oh my god like i lived in an apartment growing up and my friends lived in houses and i felt not enough and you know i always just felt like and so you know i wanted her to look i don't know i think my mom was kind of wild looking and And I'd get self-conscious of them with my dad.

19:56I don't know if I got, I mean, he just got angry really easy. He was reactive. And yeah, lots of shame. There's too much shame to even pinpoint where all the shame came from. Yeah, but God. Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.

20:40That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

21:14service in the U.S. with over 1 ,500 corporate guides. Don't wait. Protect your privacy. Build your brand and get your complete business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com slash paidvox and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com slash paidvox. Did you have any hang-ups about your body when you were making the transition from girlhood to young woman? Oh boy. Hang-ups. Maybe. I mean, was your mother quite validating of you as a feminine creature or did she just ignore that side of you, which is what my mother did?

22:06There was just never any mention. Never any mention of a body or being validated for it. Or like periods, no one ever had that conversation. Oh, God. So it was just mortifying. Everything was. Oh, yeah. I don't, I think maybe I blocked it all out, but I feel like, I know my mom's always been really supportive and I, you know, but there was a lot of times where I was just like kind of left to my own, like left alone or left with other people. but the periods and being validated in my body stuff all I can remember off the top of my head is I was always so self-conscious and I always wanted to be I wanted to be really skinny I think in the 90s you know I wanted to be like a waif and I was really self-conscious about maybe my weight because that was like the heroin chic look was so in or whatever but yeah I think I was always so self-conscious I dressed in like thrift store corduroys and baggy jeans or like I dressed like the boys I had a crush on yeah that was my way of being sexy I didn't even think like maybe I wore a tube top here and there cut that out just kidding anyway um maybe I wore a tube top here and then but but like but my main goal like that was such a weird thing that I was thinking about because when I listened to your show and you ask these questions about like, oh, what is sexy and what did your body, this, that, and the other.

23:31Yeah. It made me think, yeah, in high school, I was so boy crazy. I was like super hormonal. I've always just like loved the idea of romance and having crushes and just so like amped up and maybe today is the day I'm going to meet the love of my life and like my boyfriend or whatever. It's just so embarrassing but but I would dress never in a provocative way I would wear like 50 cotton 50 poly t-shirts and like you know vintage surf store t-shirts and corduroys and jeans and vintage Levi's and white sneakers because I think I just wanted to like because that's the kind of boy I wanted to attract I wanted to attract some guy who looks like Liam Gallagher who like looks like you know who wears like dark denim and and a green and a parka or something so I would dress that way, which is so weird.

24:20But I thought that was feminine. And then, do you mind that I'm going off in a diatribe? No, I love it. It's interesting. Well, then when I was in my 20s, I remember some guy who was going to take me on a date and he was like, he was such a bonehead. I don't know. I mean, this is clearly when I was at my lowest self-esteem wise, but I've been lower. But anyway, but he was like, he was like, I'm going to pick you up. I'm going to pick you up at eight. I was like, all right. Okay. I've been chosen. I can't believe it. Somebody's going to pick me up for a date this is amazing and he goes wear something sexy and i remember when he said that i was like i was like wear something sexy what does that mean and i completely lost my shit and i got so i overthought it so much because i thought what is sexy here's this normal man because he wasn't some like kind of way fish androgynous drug addict which is my normal which was my normal type usually and like some kind of rocker or something he was like a normal guy with a with a job or something and I went fuck he wants me to be sexy oh god and I think and I ended up going to urban outfitters so embarrassing I went to I went to urban outfitters and I got some kind of bandage skirt and then I wore heels which I never wear to this day I rarely wear heels because I always want to be able to run away from a predator and I do not like wearing heels because I'm already like nearly six feet tall yeah and I wore like these bizarre heels that was I was so uncomfortable in this weird bandage skirt that like oh my god and I was just like a robot just like I'm here and they picked me up and anyway it didn't go anywhere it went nowhere he looked at his phone the whole time he's a very successful producer on this day good for him you sound like you looked amazing as well there's something incredibly endearing when someone's out of their comfort zone when they're really young.

26:11But it is, I mean, I don't think anyone's ever said that to me, dress sexy, because some people think wearing track pants and a kind of shredded t-shirt is sexy and someone else thinks, you know, shredded fishnets and a kind of God knows what. But so I would find that really, I don't know, just disconcerting. It's like, If that isn't a directive, tell me what to wear and I'll wear that. What is sex? I don't even want that because I got asked on a date by some guy and he went and he said, it's like some Italian place in Queens or something. And I was like, oh, exciting. We're going to go to a mafioso place in Queens.

26:50And then he texted, he goes, oh, by the way, there's a dress code. And by this time, I think I had too much self-esteem this week. And I was like, dress code? He's telling me how to dress. He can go fuck himself. I was already like burned by the last guy who told me to dress sexy from when I was in my 20s. Then I'm in my 30s or whatever. I was like, how dare he even? I know what I'm doing. And then I was hardheaded the other way. And then what I realized is I like being able to share clothes with a boyfriend. I like when we both can just share the same pants. I don't know where I'm going with this.

27:21Oh, my idea of sexy, like these little details are sexy to me. wearing like a thin t-shirt where you can kind of see through it and then you can and then I'm wearing like a black lace bra or if I'm wearing like a singlet or a white t-shirt or a wife beater or whatever we're supposed to call these tank tops that are you know that we used to call wife beaters underneath a thin white tank top I wear a black lace bra and then I'm like oh my god then I feel naughty then it's like you can see my bra i don't know to me that's sexy i like those looks that seem to have come out of fame the musical oh my god i love that movie so much so good and all that kind of jane fonda workout and all those layerings of those from that era i think that looks really cool oh my god i love the coco part when coco's like when it goes over to the guy's house and And she's like taking her shirt off.

28:21Do you know what I'm talking about? No, I don't remember. I forget it. And that's all I'm looking for is to be understood. Oh, God. Because in Messi, you appear semi-naked a lot of the time. And how is it to direct a movie with bare-breasted at the same time? And I mean, it was really impressive. But you did everything. And I wondered what that felt like. Oh, my God. I mean, did you rush to the monitor with like just your panties on? I did. And the funny thing is I thought like we had a very small cast. I had like a skeleton crew, a lot of men, a lot of women behind the camera as well. But I was like, they're going to love this.

29:02My tits are out. This is incredible. I mean, surely everybody will have a hard on. Nobody had a hard on. Nobody. There's like photos that people took on set. Actors were like, oh, got rolling their eyes. My DP is like looking, I'm here with my tits out. My DP is like looking the other way, drinking a Tazzo tea or something. And I'm just like, anybody? And then I did ask. Oh, and then at some point I thought, okay, maybe I don't want to get like, you know, canceled. I'll be the first in line when women get canceled. I don't want that for me. But so I started putting my tank top on to be respectful in between shots.

29:37But then because it was such a low budget movie and we had so many people wearing so many hats and no real script supervisor, except for my producer Rebecca that I would jump back into the shot wearing the tank top so the continuity was off so I just had to leave the top off and be directing with my tits out anyway and then at the end of the whole thing I was like did anybody get a hard on? did anybody get a hard on during the shooting of this movie? and then one actor who will remain nameless was like I got a hard on and I was like thank you I want to say his name but thank you just kidding bleep that one hard on during the making of messy so anyway you describe also working in the apc store in soho in new york and having to write summaries of customers and what kind of things did you write oh my god oh yeah well uh not a proud moment in my life it was great well okay so i just moved i love that you ask a question and then i'm like let me take us all the way away from the question and maybe I'll get back to it.

30:39So I worked, yeah. I moved to New York after living in Los Angeles my entire life as a shop. And so I'm like, I'm not gonna write anymore. I'm not gonna act anymore. I'm living in New York now, post pandemic. I need structure. I need a job. I need money. You hemorrhage money living in New York. And so, yeah, I got a job as a shop girl at APC at the Mercer flagship location because it's something I wanted to do when I was in my 20s. And I feel like I moved to New York And I just had a complete midlife crisis where I dated people much too young for me, made horrible decisions, but then also got this fun job as a shop girl.

31:16Everybody there was 18, and then I'm like 40 years old. And at the end of the day, you had to type out your most meaningful exchange, your most meaningful sale with a customer. so like all these other old kids who work there would be like i sold a sold a pair of dark denim or sold a pair of white sneakers and then i had stopped writing in my personal life i thought fuck it i'm not writing anymore and then i tippy-toed because of this thing you had to do at mercer at the mercer apc suddenly my my blurbs we get longer and longer and longer and they'd go from like i sold a dress to a nice woman who walked into the shop and then they would turn into a woman walks in weaves her way off the cobblestone streets of soho and finds herself in the store you know she's in a horrible marriage they've been together for 20 years surely they're not sleeping anymore and just for a moment i remind this woman of who she once was she puts the dress on and and we may never talk again but i'll i'll never forget her or something like and so the head of apc comes out of the store the head of h you know that whatever headquarters he comes in this french guy and he's like are you the funny lady who's writing these these these very chunky long uh write-ups and i went yes it's me it's me i'm the funny lady he was like god well we are just loving in a french accent that i can't do and i don't want to offend anybody but he was like sacrebleu but he was like are we loving we're loving the stories and i went you're loving the stories thank you so much and he goes yeah but they're a little long They're a little long and this is a clothing store.

32:54So we need to tighten them up. And then I was like, you know what? Fuck this. I'm in love with writing again. I'm going to go back to writing. And then after that, I wrote my movie because I was whatever. Yeah. That's so great because I remember decades ago this was, I was doing something for another magazine and I was asking different people to submit things. and I can't remember what it was about. And I asked Sophia Coppola for something, and she said her brother had told her to read Richard Brotigan because it was very, very short, and it was a great way to, you know, have lessened the expectation of, you know, finalizing something, having something.

33:43So short form is really great. Oh, wow. It's such a good reminder that all you need to do is something short and then you're writing. The worst thing is to write nothing, of course, as we all know. And then messy is a great word and it's so evocative and all the meaning that comes with it. And you said you tell people about your encounters. And I find it really scary to tell people. And I wondered, how does it make you feel safe to kind of give the information and then hold yourself within that? Oh, my God. That's so funny. It's weird that this works for me, but it's almost like living with it inside of me and with the shame of it.