Charli xcx

0:00Bella Freud:We all do it. You have a night for yourself but don't like the sound of the silence, so you turn on the TV just for the ambience. It's a little trick that helps you feel like you've got company and aren't alone. And other insurers, well, they may make you feel alone. But when you switch to GEICO, you've got claims reps available around the clock. So whenever you need, you'll have people around to help. And let's turn on the washing machine, just for good measure. Isn't that soothing? It feels good to have support. It feels good to GEICO. Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?

0:39Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.

1:01Bella Freud:So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

1:19Bella Freud:Hi, come in.

1:26Bella Freud:Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Charlie XCX. Thanks for having me, Bella. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes? Well, today we're sort of coming off like a major heat wave in London. And nobody really has AC here. So you've really got to dress for that and you've got to be prepared. to kind of be getting a bit hot and flustered. So my clothing choices for this past week have really been based around weather in London. But I wanted to just be, I don't know, like comfortable as I'm like lying on your beautiful sofa, feel relaxed. We've also been talking a lot about like the angle.

2:24Oops. and like how that works with clothes and things like that. So yeah, I just, I went for something easy. My like Levi's and some old like vintage guest shoes and this holey t-shirt. Yeah, I love those studded shoes. They're fun, aren't they? Yeah, they're really good. I don't, ooh. Yeah, they're cute. Also, I love wearing a heel that is actually so comfortable to run around in. And this is exactly what these shoes are.

3:01Bella Freud:Yeah, they're great. Elegant too. Thanks. And you're a superstar in the world of music, film and fashion. And as well as a new music style, you've created a way of using clothes as part of your performance that has captivated an audience of young kids and ex-punks like me. And in 2025, you headlined Glastonbury and won the Ivan Avello Songwriter of the Year. You've been on the cover of Vogue. You're not one to rest on your laurels. And I wondered where your restlessness comes from. Great question. It's interesting. I think my restlessness, first of all, comes from just this innate passion to always be making something.

3:51I feel really, really lucky that I get to make things all the time. And to be honest, I don't really have hobbies outside of what I do. Like my dream day is either kind of being in the studio, making a song or making something with friends of mine or watching back to back films or talking about films that we've seen. You know, I just I don't like to sit still and sort of switch off that side of my brain because then I get bored. You know, I feel so enthralled by engaging with art and different kinds of art and artists that I just want to do it all the time. So I think in part it's that and then in part it's I don't really know what I would do if I wasn't doing that.

5:00You know, like I think engaging in making things brings me so much joy to the point where it's like, you know, it's like I do what I do to kind of like, in a way, fight off my depression and stay alive. You know, it's like it's my first love in my life over anything else. And I take that really seriously because I know that making things that actually is really healing for me and my kind of inner voice, which sometimes is running haywire. And I think there is also coupled with that, there is probably like an element of like running from the silence, if I'm being real, you know. um maybe I do need to kind of like practice stopping and sitting in that kind of uh more calm state but that is something I'm definitely out of practice in I don't know I feel I mean I

6:05Bella Freud:really relate to what you're saying and I find that calm space in the middle of like in the eye of the storm so I find it more stressful to be trying out the calm thing I yeah I agree with you I think I've done it um before where you know once you push through that sort of two-week mark you can kind of like sink into or me at least I can but I rarely do that I've done that once in my life I think really um I just need these things it's it's more than just a kind of enjoyment of them it's like I need to be um pouring my emotions into those outlets you know because I came to your music through watching the film Bottoms and I heard the track Yes No Okay and I loved it so much because it's so funny and it's punk and it reminded me of when I feel ambiguity which is rare and you're you seem like the bard for young women being both scathing and sincere and I wondered how did you know how to articulate those conflicting states of being you know it's funny it's like I don't think I really know anything like when I'm making music I'm never really thinking too much in advance about what I will be saying or what I want to say not all the time but a lot of the time I think for me making music is very much kind of like when you have a thought the thought comes you know and then you say it out loud and yes sometimes you can like trace back why you might have had that thought because of your circumstance but like I don't know like generally speaking it's like the thought just comes out right and for me it's like when I'm writing songs it it's like I don't know where the um the personality comes from except it's just from from me and it's just the things that are kind of within me that I say out loud and I think I've always had this relationship with music and with any kind of like creativity in general that like for something to be fun and funny doesn't necessarily mean that it also can't be like deeply serious and important and I think there is still a bit of a sticking point around that you know and that's not to say that I'm sort of anti like work that takes itself very seriously I also really enjoy you know that too But I think something being fun and funny and silly even at points is also totally valid as like a serious way of working.

9:27And I kind of like bringing those things together, bringing that sort of attitude with humor, with, you know, something more kind of introspective and sincere, I suppose. Because that's how I feel about art in general and music in general, you know, that all of those feelings can kind of collide together to make something that feels very real and personal.

10:02Bella Freud:Because you said that life without art would have no purpose. And how old were you when you realized that this is where your drive and your courage comes from? I mean I started I started making music when I was probably 13 or 14 and I think at that point in time I didn't really know that I felt that way I knew that making songs and recording ideas made me feel good. It made me feel safe in a way. It made me feel like I could escape to my own world, you know. But I think it was sort of as I grew older that I realized that so much of my joy and my personality and who I am as a human being is so interwoven into either making or engaging with art in some capacity even my friendship my best friends and the things that they make whether they're making music or you know I have a friend who makes furniture and a lot of sort of chairs out of metal and lights and things like that it's like even like the things around me I feel like I don't know I'm constantly around people making things at different scales and levels and with different ambitions and I just I don't know it's like it's because I'm very I feel very like privileged and lucky and of course I'm aware of that that like uh I'm surrounded by that and yeah it's sort of just become this like fabric of my entire life and to strip all that away it's like I don't really know um what I would have because it's such a uh kind of fundamental part of a lot of my relationships with other human beings as well.

12:14Bella Freud:Yeah, it's an amazing filter. I was, that scene, that famous scene in the Cocteau film where he goes through the mirror, I often think of those moments where you feel like you're going through the mirror and you're pushing yourself or discovering this moment where you, something else comes out of whatever it is you're kind of absorbed with and it's yeah such a great moment yeah and I find for me at least a lot of the times those kind of moments happen it's like where I make some kind of mistake or sort of an accident happens and it can become something quite beautiful and actually like defining in a way um which is why i think it's really cool to just let ideas flow and also uh really kind of embrace being almost childlike when it comes to creating yeah and you know I think to be childlike as an adult I think takes a lot of bravery because there's always this fear of being embarrassed I suppose and I think especially like I don't know like making things is inherently embarrassing you know because not only do you have to possibly like suggest some really terrible ideas out loud you also have to kind of like I don't know just like be willing to just completely fall on your face all the time um but I think just kind of pursuing that um childlikeness can sometimes really open you up to ideas that maybe you would feel too embarrassed to have if you weren't kind of doing that and I think that's quite a scary thing but a really beautiful thing once you're able to kind of go there I suppose you when you're in action you the more you are the more you are and it kind of seems to get into your system to just dare to be seen type of thing Right, right.

14:42Bella Freud:We've all been there. You pop into the shop for five minutes and all of a sudden you've forgotten where you parked. Car? Car? Unfortunately, that lost feeling is what it's like trying to manage your policy with other insurers. Here, car. Come out, come out, wherever you are. Please. With GEICO, you can use the app to easily manage all your policies in one place. Did this parking lot have a waterfall? I think you've wandered too far, mate. It feels good to find what you're looking for. It feels good to Geico. And your parents met in a club. I wondered, is fashion a thing in your household? I mean, you know, it's funny.

15:22So my mom grew up in Uganda.

15:28And she's Indian. And so when I was younger, I was always kind of like dressing up in her saris. and things like that. And, you know, they were all so colorful and with these brilliant patterns and really beautiful materials with like, you know, bits of gold thread woven in them. And, you know, that was sort of one side of me growing up, you know, getting to kind of like experience all of that color in such a kind of maximalist way because all of the sorries that she had were very colorful and my dad I mean my dad like he he was always so encouraging of me to really kind of embrace my um my outrageousness you know I think he especially when I was younger you know and and when I was kind of in school and then going to art school a little later in life like I think he was very much off the ethos of like you should dress crazy like why would you want to blend in like it's fun to wear like odd shoes on your feet and like and that's the kind of thing that I was doing when I was younger especially because I was kind of like hopping in and out of London right when like the kind of new rave scene was sort of dying and so you know there was that time where everybody was sort of like making necklaces out of teapots and plastic toys and things like that so I was kind of like doing that and my dad was like really encouraging me and I think my mum was a bit like oh that's weird you know but um then they themselves I mean they never really like pushed like uh aesthetics or fashion or even music onto me really like they really um they really kind of just let me sort of navigate that myself and be into what I was into so you know I was like listening to like Britney and the Spice Girls and things like that when I was younger and it was only a little bit later when I kind of got deeper on the internet that I was a bit more finding things from like an earlier time and that kind of stuff.

18:01Bella Freud:Yeah, I remember talking of teapots. I remember going to a club when I was a teenager and seeing the slits there. Cool. And they used to wear colored tights with fishnet tights over. and then I can't remember if they but one of them had sewn these tiny little wooden tea sets onto their tights like there was a tiny little teapot and a cup and it was just so cool so cool so intricate yeah and then they would be so scathing and sit there absolutely be silent and scornful you know what's funny I um when I was at art school I was sort of staying in like the dorms like near Tottenham Court Road which was near where Slade was the school I went to that was at UCL and um I don't quite remember why but I don't I don't remember how we got in touch but viv albertine and i somehow got in touch and she came to my like shitty little like dorm room single bed like full of all of my crap and we recorded a song together in my dorm.

19:28I think it was for some charity show at the Roundhouse. We recorded a cover of Train in Vain by The Clash. And I think that that song was about her or one of the other girls in the band. I'm kind of blanking on the exact story. But it was a real, it was a really, really, really surreal experience to have her, you know, there sat cross-legged on my single bed, like making a song with my like crappy keyboard and bad drum loops. But yeah.

20:12Bella Freud:I'd love to hear that song. I bet it's fantastic. I'm sure it's on the internet somewhere. I hope so. And what was the first piece of clothing that you became obsessed with as a child? Hmm. I had a pink sort of princess dress that was, I don't know, just sort of this kind of tacky like dress up box. sort of puffed out sparkly kids dress that I just like absolutely loved and it was probably like actually some sort of like Toys R Us situation the peak of fashion you know and it came with these like little like lacy white gloves very trad actually but um I remember being really really into that um when I was younger and always wanting to wear it um and there are definitely some uh cute pics of me floating around in that um yeah I think I'd say that like a kind of identity thing that you craved this thing to consolidate how you felt about yourself?

21:41You know, I really don't know. I mean, I definitely wasn't thinking that deeply about it when I was like three, to be honest. I think it was just the classic, like, you know, when I was younger, I just thought like that it would be like fun if my job was like being a fairy or something you know like seeing that film a fairy tale about uh those two uh girls who discovered fairies at the bottom of their garden um but nobody else could see them and I remember like I wanted to have that experience like so badly you know and I think my whole like vibe was like just trying to like get close to that kind of a thing so I think that's probably why I was into the dress but I remember later in life um probably when I was like 16 17 I remember like after I signed my first record deal I bought this pair of Vivian Westwood red felt platform boots um and I remember so well I was I was desperate to have them I went to the store on Coddart Street and they didn't have my size and it was like the last pair and they were like a size too small and this I'd never really like bought anything um you know from a designer before this was like my first sort of you know like doing that um and yeah they only had a size too small but I was so desperate to have them that I bought them anyway and I would wear them and they were so painful so uncomfortable like my toes sort of like crossing like this you know because they were just too small for me but I remember feeling like when I wore them and even just like when I was in the shop buying them I was like I feel like this is a piece of my identity that it's like I don't own it yet but I'm about to and yeah those shoes I just felt so you know it's like I think when you wear Vivian you like just immediately inherently feel like connected to like the history of her world um and I definitely felt that when I was wearing those very painful

24:29Bella Freud:small shoes yeah they're so great there's also there's something about the the elevation of her shoes that I feel it's to do with like well it's posture but it's somehow seems to get the courage going up in your spine and so you start there and then you're you're ready for the next bit of your look and it's really empowering and yeah yeah because you you've called your style Disney grunge that which is such a great description I think it's wonderful because you possess this grace and freedom in how you move, which is a bit like a cartoon animation. I wondered if you had a cartoon character who you identify with.

25:19Bella Freud:Oh my gosh, that's so funny. I feel like me describing my style as Disney grunge is very like me on MySpace, like typing away on my profile. I'm not sure I'd describe it like that now but I think it's cool that you kind of feel that it still relates um gosh in terms of a a cartoon character I don't know I mean I feel like I probably always related most to even though our fashion sense is very very different I would say probably most related to Daria as a cartoon character just because she's so um I don't know she's just kind of so like which is like my favorite vibe yeah ever um but we we do dress like very very differently um but I think her sense of style is very cool because I think I mean I always I've been quite obsessed with cartoons my whole life and I feel they have these amazing qualities of kind of It's so compressed and there's so much intensity with them that I'm always, I sort of honed in on that phrase, which I think conjures up a lot.

26:34Bella Freud:Yeah. And your lyrics are confident and body positive and things like, I'm a hot girl. And my generation are so self-effacing. And I think we were brought up with a lot of shame around our bodies. And how do you feel free to say that kind of thing? It seems so, it's so fantastic. Well, you know, for me, it's like I love sort of writing songs like that because almost in a way it's like a mantra. It's like the more you say that stuff out loud, the more you like really feel that in your bones um and I also think you know when I sing songs of mine that make me feel really powerful I can feel that they make the kind of audience who I'm performing them to feel powerful as well um and I really like that but I will say I feel a lot of shame about, you know, my body and how I look sometimes.

27:50And I think it's, you know, this sort of endless kind of pendulum swing between like feeling unbelievably confident to feeling unbelievably insecure. and I think that is sort of the harsh reality of like the world we find ourselves in especially on the internet and I think you know there is so much like expectation placed on young women and also so much critique thrown at young women that I feel like it's yeah it's sort of this like inescapable thing that isn't our fault you know um so yeah I I definitely whilst sometimes I can feel very body confident and very um you know uh sexy and hot and all the rest of it like sometimes I really I really don't uh feel that way and sometimes it's sort of impossible for me to get out of feeling that way and then sometimes I can use things like clothing or music

29:10Bella Freud:to kind of get myself out of that you know yeah I mean your success your smash hit album brat it you made it okay to be a messy and erotic and you make it reasonable that a woman can be all those things and not just a good or a bad girl and it's really comforting and was that something inherent or is there someone who you think embodies this who you kind of think about sometimes I mean for me I think that just it just came because I think I've always been a little bit like that I've always been a bit more messy and um I've always wanted to live my life exactly how I want to be and sometimes that does involve being a bit messy or being a bit fucked up or you know not necessarily like I don't know dressing the way I'm supposed to at certain moments I don't know and so that's just always been who I am and I think sometimes that makes people really uncomfortable um and sometimes that makes people feel really excited because they feel that way too um I mean there are so many like awesome women who have embodied that like long long before me um I mean we spoke about Vivian it's like I think she's such a pioneer of that um people like Beatrice Dell I'm just like obsessed with really yeah interesting and like I don't know I remember seeing that movie Ladies and gentlemen the fabulous stains when I was younger and was really inspired by that too and yeah I do you know like uh uh bow wow wow that band yeah like when I what what's the lead singer's name Anna Annabella Lewin yes yeah Annabella Lewin like she's just so cool and she's so kind of like doing her thing I mean like polystyrene like all of those women like they really kind of like uh was so sort of abrasive in like being who they are um and that's always been very inspiring to me um and so yeah with the last record with with Brat especially thinking about clothing and thinking about performance uh on stage I really I really didn't want to feel like I was sort of dressing up as a pop star and going on stage I really just wanted to wear clothes that I would wear to a party at my friend's house and then perform the music in those clothes and really exist in that kind of a wardrobe um and uh yeah I think people could really relate to that and it was so cool actually seeing a lot of the fans who were coming to the shows were kind of like making their own versions of those outfits and honestly being taking a lot of time and really like being like quite thrifty and like making like really cool like interesting versions and interpretations of some things that I'd worn.

32:45Great it must have been so fascinating to see that Yeah.

32:50Bella Freud:Because your new single is called SS26 and shows you walking in a fashion show and also sitting in the front row with next to Karin Reutfeld. And you're a great wearer of clothes. And I'm interested that this kind of traditional format is still appealing and has power. And what is it you like about it? About fashion shows? Yeah. Well, I actually think one of the best places to hear music is at a fashion show. Or even when I'm just on TikTok and I'm watching like models stomp to songs. It just, there's like a fantasy there that is just, I don't know. it like transports me like if I ever see like I don't know like Naomi or like Shalom or like Alex Consani like stomping along to like an epic song and there's like a great TikTok edit like I don't know like it's so satisfying to me and you know having been to like a few fashion shows and like seeing like how the music sort of can really like set this tone like it's really I don't know it feels especially when the set is really great as well it's really exciting and you know you also have to just sort of sit still and listen and watch it's not like you're dancing and I mean you can kind of dance a little in the chair and stuff which is cool but it's like you're really kind of like focused on it you're focused on the atmosphere and you're focused on the clothes and you're focused on the uh you know the way that the models are moving and yeah it's kind of like a unique experience I suppose and and also you know I've never walked in a in a runway show ever so that was also sort of like a fun fantasy to do that in a very like low pressure way where I controlled every element of edit because I read that you and some fellow musician collaborators dressed up to see how wearing a 90s minimal and a Müllermeister type of outfit could influence how you record a song differently and what came out differently well I think you know when we were making this album music fashion film uh we we decided we wanted to go to paris to make it um i knew that that was going to be the title uh kind of right at the beginning of the writing process and i had said to my two collaborators who i made the album with ag cook and Finn Keane like we should go to Paris we should go during fashion week AG was doing the music for the Alexander McQueen show I was going to uh watch the Saint Laurent show and Finn was just being Finn I don't know um and we kind of like thought like okay let's go and let's record during that week because we know that we're going to be like running around we're going to be bumping into so many people we're going to be seeing so many people dressed up in all these fabulous clothes we're going to be seeing so many like fans of fashion who are like you know out there like doing their thing like so much street style so many interesting parties like with like funny people popping up like left right and center we kind of felt like it would be a really like um um just like a really rich environment to create specifically like this album which you know the title you know contains the word fashion so we were like well let's just go even if it ends up not being very fruitful maybe it will just be like a fun experience and like during that we sort of decided okay like okay well let's sort of like dress for the feeling of the album let's like dress for the feeling of Paris, you know, and in that came that kind of experiment.

37:12I mean, I will say, I always like to, I always think about like the clothes that I wear when I record, because it can really, it can change my mood and it can change the song. I mean, it's like, if you're wearing like Phoebe Philo, you're like gonna make a cool song. You know what I mean? because the clothes make you feel effortless you know if you're wearing like or if at least if I'm wearing like some like scraggy old kind of t-shirt from like back when I was like 16 there's like a coziness to that that maybe can make me write lyrics that feel a bit more internal and kind of reflective or something and you know if I'm wearing like the highest of high heels it's like that's maybe when a song like hot girl comes out um so yeah I feel like clothing could really change the the mood of my writing process at least no I love that because I thought that

38:21Bella Freud:makes complete sense to me and it's so interesting to hear especially a young person talk about understanding how there's a rigor in clothes or it can bring you a sort of tension of where you need it to be yeah and you write brilliantly about deep feelings and how uncomfortable they can be and their impact emotionally and yet you come across as as a securely attached person and I I wondered where do you anchor yourself when you want to get close to that edge? Well, I'm, gosh, I don't think anyone's ever called me securely attached. So I'll, I'll take that because, yeah, I think I, it's like I, I know myself, but I also can sometimes be completely out of control of my emotions and just my my mind to be honest and I can really uh spiral and so to be honest it's not hard for me to kind of get there to write those kinds of songs because I feel like I'm always in a way fighting between feeling like unbelievably stable and unbelievably out of balance um and it's sometimes really quite hard to navigate that um um and yeah I don't know it's like I can tap into that kind of easily because I am quite fragile and sensitive uh but I also enjoy kind of like talking about this stuff that we're we're talking about now it's like this is like my calm place like I love these conversations I love talking about you know all the things that we're talking about like influences and fashion and art and all of these things so maybe I'm just feeling calm right now because I'm like lying on your nice sofa having a nice conversation well there must be something there because I I feel like I'm quite good at kind of sensing I mean I'm paying myself a compliment but because I regulate myself or I have you know I notice how I regulate my own kind of oscillating you know kind of extreme feelings and so there's something that you're transmitting that's working and it's great well that's wonderful that's good I'm happy to know to hear that I mean I will say I would recently I think I've been like terrible at self-regulating and kind of like bringing myself back down to like a neutral calm um so yeah I mean that that's good to hear I think your your home has a very very calming vibe I will say so I think it could be you that's like making me like this but yeah I'll take it.

41:44Maybe I'll move in. Yes, I'd be delighted.

41:49Bella Freud:Because it's very fresh how you collaborate with your friends who are also your peers and competitors. And you've worked with artists including Lorde and Billie Eilish and Julian Casablancas and numerous others. And it feels generous and exciting. And I know it's not fashionable to say, but do you ever get attacks of competitive jealousy? yeah I mean obviously of course like I think I've said this to Lord before to Ella like I was so jealous when I heard Royals for the first time which is now funny because there's this whole like meme of like everybody's always like yelling at me sig Royals like they you know they there's this whole thing anyways but I yeah I when I was younger and I heard that song I was like I'm so jealous like I wish that I could have written that song like I just I thought it was so spectacular thought it was so unique I thought it really it really that defined a time that song and I think so many people since have tried to kind of bottle that essence that Ella really immaculately captured on that song um so yeah for sure I mean I it's like when you share your work with uh friends like I recently uh my friend Romain Gavras put out this music video uh for this project he does called Generation which starred Young Lean and I remember messaging him and I was like I am so jealous you know and he was like thank you and then I like sent him my uh you know later on I sort of sent him my recent album cover and he was like well I'm jealous of that and I'm like okay well this is it's like kind of like the biggest compliment yeah in a way like when it's like how you know like oh my god like that is so so awesome like I wish I'd made it and um I'm not really embarrassed by saying that I think yeah it's like that's like the sign of like oh wow like they did that so well they did such a good job like they just like completely like killed it with that um so yeah of course that happens and I think you know I would say for the most part a lot of people feel that but maybe people don't want to admit it I don't know but I'll admit it yeah because I remember talking to my shrink about feeling demoralized by feeling competitive with someone who I really liked and he said well treat it as a game and that just completely transformed it and I thought okay it's you know that's fine to have these feelings and actually you can play and it can stimulate me to look harder or do something push myself or enjoying myself or just enjoy their yeah their outfit instead of shrinking away right right and I think you know like sometimes um competition can kind of like yeah like drive or inspire you a little bit as soon as it's like in a relatively like healthy way I mean I think like in my sort of friend group there is like a lot of that going on but I think the thing that's still cool at the same time is I think everybody kind of like shows up to support each other's work um and I think that is like the key yeah for for that whole thing it's like you gotta kind of like show up for your friends and support them especially if you think the work is great but even if you don't it's like that's kind of what like being a friend is about and I think sometimes when you're sort of friends with a lot of creative people that element can sometimes get a bit lost which is a shame because actually it's like so fun to just like support like the people that you love the most and kind of like go on their journey with them and be really excited for them yeah I love the video boys which you co-directed in 2017 and it's so tender and cute with all the endearing qualities that boys have and it's not reductive either and you friendships with film directors like David Cronenberg and Jim Jarmusch and you thinking of directing more is or is acting more liberating for you you know I gosh like I don't know if I have the I mean I definitely currently don't have like the sort of skill level to direct a full length feature I mean watching friends of mine do it it's like just the stamina that you have to have to do that is something like so hardcore and admirable and yeah it's really like you got to be locked into that for a long time like you know pre-production shooting it post-production of the edit like then like especially nowadays like dealing with like studios like dealing with like how you're going to sell it how you're going to market it it's like so much and like I've had my own experience with that without directing the entire film and it's already like oh my god I'm at capacity So, I mean, I have so much respect for directors.

47:38I think to direct a feature film is something so ambitious, especially, you know, at a time where it's really kind of like hard to get the resources that you need to do that. even these sort of like major like iconic film directors from you know the past some of them can't even like get like the funding to make what will undoubtedly be a great film I think like the industry has just changed so much in terms of what studios want like from my sort of yeah naive outsider perspective but um yeah so I I mean look never say never but I think I have a lot to learn is what I'm saying like I think uh that's part of the reason like I love being on set so much like is getting to watch what other people are doing getting to kind of talk to cinematographers talk to the directors like even just talk to other actors about how you know other sets that they've been on have been compared to the one that we might currently be on you know it's like I just feel like I've got so much to learn and I really enjoy learning it all.

49:02So, yeah, but no feature, directorial debut just yet.

49:10Bella Freud:Because you work with John Cale on the soundtrack for Wuthering Heights. And was that your idea to approach him? Because I find him totally fascinating and a genius. and I was interested that you did too and being from a different generation, how was it to work with him? Oh my gosh. I mean, John is just like the coolest guy ever. Me and my friend Finn were working on House, which is the name of the song that John's on. Uh, and we just, we, I did this kind of like outro thing and the track itself was really kind of, uh, quite like haunting and, uh, um, bewitching, I suppose. And I remember, like, I had watched the Todd Haynes Velvet Underground documentary.

50:13And I remember John had said in the documentary that when he was thinking about the viola and the strings specifically for the Velvet Underground stuff, he really wanted them to feel both elegant and brutal. And he said it, he phrased it in this like really amazing way. And that phrase really stuck with me. And when we first started working on this song, House, I was like, wow, this kind of sounds in a way like my interpretation of those words. And so I sort of thought like, do you think I could reach out to John Cale? Like, you know, like I kind of like just started like asking the question out loud, like really not sure what the answer would have been.

51:06But we basically found a way to get in touch with him. And we swapped phone numbers and we agreed that we'd have a call in a few days or something after we had initially got in touch over text. I remember the day that we were supposed to speak. I was having a really bad day. I was like my very like unregulated self very like up and down all over the place crying like I can't remember what was going on but I just remember it was like a very stressful bad bad emotional day and I totally forgot I had this call with John and I was sat with my husband at my my place and suddenly my phone started ringing as I was like mid like you know ugly cry like full on I picked up the phone there's just this voice on the end like so kind of like gravelly and deep and Welsh and he was just like hello and I was like who is this and he was like it's John I was like oh my god John Cale's calling me like mid breakdown and I kind of had like John like I don't know I kind of told him I was like I'm having a bad day John but like speaking to you on the phone is like made me feel so much better like thank you for calling and it was just yeah it was quite cute you know um and yeah we just spoke about the song and he uh he was very like open to it and I've been a fan of his work for a really long time like with you know all the things that he's done with the velvet underground and you know his collaborations with john cage and also his solo his solo stuff you know and his stuff with brian eno i mean like i just he's so prolific as well like he's he's just constantly like making stuff all the time like he's always like got another idea going on and i think that that is just i like working with people like that like you know I think it's cool how kind of like illustrious his his career has been uh it's very inspiring to me because you're a fan of

53:27Bella Freud:Andy Warhol and Lou Reed and I find that so refreshing and modern because their work is still radical and you've talked about wanting to move forward with your work and do you find looking back as part of how you move forward yeah you know it's funny I'm not really somebody who has this like encyclopedic like kind of book of references especially when it comes to to music actually like I'm not somebody who knows like the kind of uh I don't know lineage of like like, all artistry and genres and, like, you know, and maybe I should. I know that some people really do, but I kind of exist in a vacuum in a way in that sense where I kind of, like, gravitate toward the things I gravitate towards and then I kind of just, like, lock in on it and I don't necessarily know, like, yeah, I don't know.

54:35I'm just not encyclopedic, but with, um Lou Reed and Andy Warhol and that whole kind of scene I don't know I think just from when I was a kid like you know it's like it's one of the first you know like things you kind of like learn about in in kind of like school I think like pop art you know it's like kind of like fun to engage in even if you're not particularly into uh fine art like you know when you when you're younger and I think yeah it just kind of took a hold of me and I was like very interested in in like the factory scene and you know all of the characters there like you know Jackie Curtis and Kennedy Darling and Bridget Polk and all of those people and and this kind of scene of different creatives doing different things um and I think the reason I was so interested in all of that was because I really felt alone when I was first making music you know I didn't feel like I had this group of friends around me at that time who were also doing the same thing as me or wanted to do the same thing as me um and so I think I looked to times like that where it felt uh you know like everybody was kind of like gravitating around like you know a place or like a city or a group you know a group of artists or even yeah even just like the bars like Max's and things like that like it was all very fascinating to me how that worked and I think you know it's also why I was really into Ed Banger Records when I was younger this like French electro record label who again it was like all the artists seemed to be sort of collaborating all the time and working together and throwing parties together and really kind of existing in this uh quite like fluid space at least how it seemed from the outside I think it's because I craved that that I gravitated towards those kinds of things yeah I know I think that comes late to

57:03Bella Freud:fashion designers but it's starting to happen this collaborative kind of more friendliness right right right yeah it's interesting i suppose i suppose there's something about being a um designer a fashion designer that's an inherently kind of insular in a way um i remember when i watched unzipped for the first time that documentary it's so good it's one of my favorite films yeah um and isaac misrahi is kind of like looking in the paper and i think it's i think i could be wrong i think there's like a article about jean-paul gautier and how he had kind of like done a show that and isaac misrahi was like worried about like whether the Jean-Paul Gaultier show was going to kind of encroach on what he was doing.

58:06Would he be accused of copying? Something like that. And I just thought, oh my gosh, yeah, that's so stressful, especially because I think, again, from my outsider opinion, when it comes to making a collection, it seems everything is such high stakes. and the time period in which you're doing it in is relatively short. And you're, especially now, there's so many different collections to make. There's like all these constant like seasons. And yeah, it just must be like, yeah, pretty intense, I can imagine.