Dan Levy

29:51Bella Freud:Yeah, yeah. When reflected out into the world. I suppose it's that thing you were saying that nothing needs to be said. It's just done. There it is. And you get it so much more than some sort of. Yeah, I don't learn when I'm being told how to think or how to feel. But if I'm exposed to something, that's the education. Yeah. And it really worked, I suppose. It did. Because when you were growing up and entering puberty, did you use clothes as a way of disguising how you felt about yourself? And did you have any hangups about your body? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But I also didn't have access to the clothes.

30:41So I would go shopping with my mom and get a pair of jeans and a sweater and a T-shirt when I really wanted the coat, the shoes, the belts, another pair of pants, another sweater, another sweater, another sweater. so I didn't have the ability really to even express myself like sartorially speaking so I had to make do that one sweater had to be the sweater and the t-shirt had to be the t-shirt because I didn't have a wardrobe to kind of play with um what was your question about disguise i got hung up on the trauma for a second

31:28Bella Freud:disguise yes like did you use clothes to kind of well yeah the men in my family tend to be a bit top heavy so we have like our legs stay quite slim but if we don't watch ourselves it can it It can easily turn into a bit of a Humpty Dumpty shape, like an eggy top, like a heavy top part with little twig legs that stick out. So we get bellies and we get breasts. And I think I'm to this day constantly battling a B or C cut breast. I have to keep them in very good shape. otherwise I should wear a bra well I think it's better than the other way around I think really all I want is that like I just but then with with dumpy legs and and right with the thin legs I don't know I mean great well I could never Hedy Slimane's Dior for example I don't I don't want that thin but i couldn't clothes don't hang off my chest in the way that they do his aesthetic yeah and i've always loved that aesthetic but i can never wear it i'm broad shoulders and i've i have titties well so you have to dress sort of i've come to accept that You have to, you can't fight your body.

33:08Bella Freud:Yeah. You have to dress for your shape. So a big, comfy sweatshirt in a dark color will kind of hide. And a good shoulder is an amazing asset, you know. You can do, you can go anywhere. You can cut swathes through. Exactly. And Anthony Vaccarello at Saint Laurent right now is doing a shoulder that really works for me. I love his shoulder. It's a nice, strong, sharp shoulder, which also allows for the front of the blazer to sit flat. So it's created my dream sort of silhouette. Yeah. Despite these things. because you've described your suitcase packing as compulsive impulsive and meticulous and so three words that shouldn't go together and yet i wondered uh can you define what the the fear around packing i don't know what it is it will take me ages i think because you know why because I don't put clothes together in advance.

34:28Bella Freud:No, I'm the same. I like to get dressed sort of day of and throw things on. But in order to do that when you're traveling, you have to give yourself the options to be able to shop your own closet. I have friends that will put full head-to-toe looks together for every day and every night. And every day and every night they will wear those clothes and they'll look fantastic and it's quite economical i have to over stuff yeah in order to decide in the morning so that's where the impulsive element fits into the restrained element that's right but the meticulousness is simply the care i take in selecting the clothes and then you get to the place and none of it works or it's raining at least you have choice because i'm the same choice of things that often don't work because in overthinking the whole process i'm left with a suitcase of just stuff and i don't know what to do with it um i'm getting better though i'm working through it yeah i find packing pretty traumatizing i but they are folded yes folding is i can't do i have friends that just will throw things into a suitcase and zip it up i thought that was only something from movies from a movie always think no one would do that but you've seen someone do that yeah i've witnessed it firsthand on a on a trip wow and i it's it's actually burned into my memory the the clothes being thrown into the bag piling wow and then a the top going down, sitting on it and zipping it up.

36:17Bella Freud:That's quite impressive, really, isn't it? I suppose. Depends on what your idea of impressive is. But yeah, I guess in defying everything that I perceive to be right in this world, it's impressive. Because you describe yourself as an introvert, yet you draw attention to yourself through your love of fashion. and what's the security that fashion, high fashion brings you? I think as a gay person, when you spend a lot of your life trying to assimilate or trying to be a version of yourself that accommodates culture so as to avoid bullying or feeling, I suppose, ostracized or othered, particularly in school, what it does is delay your understanding of who you are.

37:25And so the minute that I was able to, A, come out of the closet, and B, make an income that allowed me to responsibly shop for myself. I think part of my curiosity around fashion and why I have really kind of pushed the limits, good and bad, with what I wear is, I think, based on a quest to understand myself deeper yeah because i only came out of the closet at 19 and i think to not be yourself for the first 20 years of your life leaves you wondering who you really are yeah in a way and i don't know if i'll ever fully get there but clothes have been such an outlet for me to explore who I am testing things yeah I mean my glasses have gotten really really big and then they've gotten really really small and then they've gotten really really big again and I think a lot of it is just a wanting to to to be interesting and I think it helps you to get there in a way yeah you know And that's why I don't love the culture of judging the way that people dress.

39:00And I think there's this whole wave of kind of Instagram and TikTok, you know, voices who spend their days kind of criticizing people's clothes. Because I think whether it works or it doesn't, you've tried something.

39:20Bella Freud:Yeah. And that can't be criticized. It's a vulnerable thing. I mean, it can, it has, it will.

39:30I think personally speaking, I had to explore in order to find myself. And I don't regret anything I've worn because it's all been fun. It's all been in fun. And what's the point in regretting or criticizing play? Yeah.

39:54Bella Freud:It's so interesting because as a shy person and describing yourself as introverted, it's like, it's almost like you throw out a, I always think of that thing, Sir Francis Drake putting his cloak down for Elizabeth I so she could walk over the water. And it's those moments where something, there's a lily pad and you can sort of spring onto it and explore how can you bear to be out here, seen like this. And it's good for the courageous part of oneself. And clothes are so great for that. You know, they are your allies. Yeah, and I also feel like, I think now that I'm sort of lying down and having this conversation, I wonder whether part of it, dressing slightly outside of my comfort zone, or the experimentation with getting dressed had something to do with, if you're fearful of social situations, and you appear to be somebody who maybe would invite conversation, then maybe subconsciously that's a way of trying to build a bridge knowing that i when i mean it was much worse when i was younger but if you are not the person to go up to somebody and say hi at a party if you look a certain way perhaps subconsciously i was hoping it would invite someone to come up to me.

41:35Bella Freud:Yeah. Or at least not pass judgment. If you look cool, then even if nobody talks to you, there's an idea that perhaps you're not being judged. I think a lot of this now that I'm, again, lying down here has to do with judgment. being ridiculed and bullied for being gay growing up. Yeah. And I suppose having a good look is more likely to invite a good conversation or someone to say something. Yeah. And you find a kindred spirit. Yeah. And that's... Inviting a kind of person who would appreciate the vibe, I guess, because I didn't have the ability to be sort of actively social. Yeah, yeah. So it's finding the tribes of people by way of how we look, I guess.

42:44Yeah. I don't know whether that's a good or a bad thing.

42:48Bella Freud:Well, I think it's a device that works because you recognize it. I recognize, you know, we do recognize that. And sometimes, like you've described, the clothes do the talking and the preamble. And then suddenly you recognize that you have a friend there or they make it clear and something's happening. And that's an exciting moment. Yeah, it's also such a... Can be. the way that people dress is such a fun way of sort of quietly psychoanalyzing a person as well i mean not judgment but just trying to understand how a person works it's a very fun game of creating a character yeah in your head it's true i was thinking this morning about I seem to be dressing more and more like my own psychoanalyst who is quite low-key, but he wears Margiela V-necks.

43:58Bella Freud:Chic. And so I thought, okay, that's, you know, it's distinguished. Sort of finding yourself mirroring. I know. And you're such a good dresser, but how do you feel about being naked?

44:17I'd love to sit here and say I walk around naked all the time. I don't. I've gotten much more comfortable with it. But it's not my comfort place. I think because I have insecurities about my body.

44:44you know I don't know whether that's a genetically kind of predisposed thing in terms of how we relate to our bodies without clothes on or whether this is a learned thing but I yeah I don't know but I'm not it's not my favorite it i much prefer a t-shirt and sweatpants around the house

45:11Bella Freud:yeah i'm the same i mean even naked i have to have something on or it doesn't feel naked enough it feels just like exposed something incomplete yes yeah because how do you feel about stylist because and being a vehicle for high fashion, extreme fashion looks. And I think a high fashion statement needs a perfect blend of insecurity and confidence to carry it off, like the looks that Alexander Skarsgård has been wearing. And you can't tell whether he's ridiculing himself or congratulating himself, but it's very good. I like how kind of provocative and playful he is. Yeah. Feels like he's kind of taking the piss out of every occasion while at the same time celebrating fashion.

46:13Bella Freud:Yeah. So I think that's why people have responded so well to his red carpet looks because he has this playful, really kind of effortless way that he carries himself in the world and I wish I had that kind of stature to to to experiment in that kind of way but stylists I think it's a I feel like we're in a tricky place right now because a lot of what's happening is a designer will send a look and that look is, you know, look 17 from the runway. And so the stylist is now

47:10procuring a look and putting it on the client. But in the process of brand identity preservation. It's almost in a way removing the ability to style. So I think you have to find a stylist who is willing to play with vintage and potentially ruffle up a look that a designer wants in completion. Yeah. and sort of beg for forgiveness afterwards. Because otherwise you just end up wearing exactly what has already been shown, which at times can be great. There are looks on a runway that I'll see and say, like, absolutely. Give me the whole thing, top to tail. But I think I was having this conversation with my friend Michael Ryder, who's now at the...

48:11Oh, yeah. He's at Celine. Yeah, designing at Celine. And I think part of what I've known him for 20 plus years, and he's the greatest human being. Greatest. And he loves, loves clothes, loves a shop, loves to experiment. And I think what we were talking about was his desire to make clothes that can be styled as opposed to looks that need to be honored in order for his vision to be complete. And it was really interesting to hear him talk about that. Because I would love to return to kind of the way that celebrities dressed in the 90s when stylists were brought on for red carpet looks. But the people themselves kind of had to defend for themselves most of the time.

49:16I think that's why we're looking back at all of these amazing looks from celebrities in the 90s that were kind of paparazzi'd in all of their own clothes. And they look incredible. You can tell now when someone has been styled in a paparazzi shot.

49:33Bella Freud:Yeah. You know? And it's finding, I find that in working with a stylist, you need that sensibility overlap. You need to trust that the taste is there between the two of you, but that they are also going to push you in a direction that excites you and allows you to kind of experiment in ways that you normally wouldn't. Yeah. It's an interesting time right now for all of that. It is. It's so true. Because I went to see Kim Gordon. She was here playing, doing a concert, and she looked amazing. And she was wearing this white semi-transparent skirt that had a kind of sheen on it and like a black satin Chong Sam that was open, so it made an asymmetrical V and this blonde hair and these boots.

50:33Bella Freud:and I couldn't take, you know, we were just spellbound and went with these young kids as well. And afterwards I was like, where did you get the skirt? And she got it in real to, what's it called? The real real? Yeah. And it was an old something, but she looked my favorite combination somehow, like punk rock haute couture just so so elegant and so that sort of like you know she could just conquer the world she's also someone who can wear clothes so well she has the most beautiful body and you could see her legs through the skirt right you just couldn't stop watching her legs and what they were doing.

51:25Bella Freud:How great. And then there was this music. And she's, yeah, she's really something. She's so fantastic. And it goes straight to the heart when you see, you get like, I love the Alexander Skarsgård because it's like he's very at ease on the tightrope. And that's quite a time. It's a narrow place, but he can do it. And a lot of that too is, I think, Harry Lambert's, the clash of the two of them. Harry's sort of love of play and camp.

52:09And Alex's height and, I suppose, kind of sex appeal.

52:18Bella Freud:Yeah, and his authority. It's like someone from Tolstoy or something, one of those sexy soldiers. It's fun to see when it works. Yeah, yeah. That kind of stylist and client dynamic. It's really, it can be a really fantastic thing. And if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

52:46no because i tend to go face first if we're talking like physical attraction so if the face is good i don't really care what they're wearing it helps i mean i i think it definitely helps that if a person has amazing style it certainly enhances um but i kind of go like eyes down yeah um and i i almost i don't need someone i'm dating to be fashionable um it would be nice but i i almost find some of the people i found most attractive to have horrible style but incredible beauty yeah and that beauty doesn't have to be conventional in any way i mean some of the most beautiful people i've i've ever met are not conventionally attractive but there's something about them there's an aura to to the way that they carry themselves that is like intoxicating yeah and they've had horrible style yeah and i've kind of I've kind of, it's been a turn on almost.

54:07Bella Freud:Yeah, it's so interesting that. Because you're very close friends with Jonathan Anderson and who's now the creative director all over Dior and his own brand JW. And I watched this brilliant promo film that you made when he was at Loewe all about how to pronounce Loewe. And how do you know what the appeal of a brand is including the appeal of not knowing how to pronounce their name. I think what Jonathan is so brilliant at is knowing what people, I don't want to say knowing what people want, but it's knowing what people will want. Because he's never in the moment. He's always a footstep or a couple footsteps ahead of the moment.

54:57And there's a sense of play and a sense of humor. I think what I love about Jonathan as a person and as a kind of creative is that he has a sense of humor about it all.

55:12Bella Freud:Yeah. He's an incredibly serious person when it comes to the work. But the work has play. and I think in with Loewe we were having dinner and he we were kind of discussing collaborating in some kind of way and he was telling me what what in an ideal world what they would want to do it was it would be a kind of short film that would help audiences or help culture understand the pronunciation better. And I pitched him the spelling bee idea over the dinner. And it was like two weeks later, I got a call saying, we're going to do it. So good. Let's write it. Let's put it together. And we didn't end up making it for quite some time after.

56:00But again, for a designer like that to trust the vision and to see the value in it, is so great because fashion can be incredibly serious. Yeah. And I think what worked about that short film, I call it a short film. Yeah, it was a short film. It was an elongated advertisement, was that it was funny. And yet at the same time, it was stylish. It had a vibe. aubrey and i were really fun together i love and the overall effect of it i found so

56:45Bella Freud:successful it was i mean a masterpiece because it it had everything it had the authority you the test of fashion then the how people are prepared to go to the lengths to get it wrong in order to be part of fashion and why all those kind of sort of sound judgy sounding things are so inclusive because you're all part of this club and you all get it and you don't know i mean i used i never said the word love i had no idea how you say it it's like so useful and yet when you find out how to say it it's such an easy adjustment yeah so to be aware of the cultural conversation around the name the fact that nobody really outside of fashion nobody really knew how to pronounce it even inside even inside fashion and it was just i thought it was such a i just thought it was such a great idea on his part to lean into that and turn to you know us clowns to tell that story well um it was a brilliant idea yeah it was and again like how great to collaborate with people that you admire yeah and love so jonathan it's so true about him seeing he sees the idea ahead and he when he gets behind something it's a real there's a real one of those moments that you know something is happening.

58:28You can't give people what they want. And I do think that creatively that's where he and I have really found a common bond. You know, I don't like making television for an audience, despite the fact that we are now in a culture that is algorithmically inclined. because if I learned anything from the success of Schitt's Creek, nobody saw that coming.

58:55Bella Freud:Yeah. Nobody wanted it. We had to make it on our own. And it wasn't until we showed people something that they didn't know they wanted. That's when hysteria starts. That's when the massive ratings happen. That's when viewer loyalty happens. That's when the real fun starts. When you give an audience something they don't know that they want and they have to catch up. Yeah. And they have to discover. Because you're going to get a much deeper sense of loyalty out of somebody who feels like they found something special. Then consuming something they wanted and moving on. Yeah. And I do feel like Jonathan is constantly pushing the boundaries of what people want.

59:46to the point where, you know, I think he said this publicly too, like at some point he would put something out that he knew would be controversial simply to shake up the audience's expectation of what it is he was saying. Yeah. And what it is they want from him, from the brand, from themselves. And I thought that was such a clever way of, at times sacrificing the continuity of expectation to just disrupt and see what happened.

1:00:22Bella Freud:Yeah. And I think that has to be done in entertainment as well, film and television. In your new series, Big Mistakes, you asked the legendary fellow Canadian and queer icon Peaches to write the musical score. And how did you know who to bring into your work? There was only one option. Because she's a disruptor and a radical. And watching the episode, suddenly you're reminded you have this kind of emotional, as though you're just flying across the road and along this journey of the characters. And it's so ingenious. It was always Peaches. Long before we even started writing. Really? Yeah, because I always put a playlist together before I work on something.

1:01:17Because I find that music allows me to conjure scenes and ideas and vibes. And so I'll put these extensive playlists together that I'll listen to over and over and over again. Certain songs I'll listen to like 10, 15, 20 times a day. Because something about the song elicits a visual for me. I'm able to picture a scene come to life by way of a song.

1:01:47Bella Freud:Yeah. And so music is so formative in the way that I build television. Wow. And Peaches was a ton of her music was in the Big Mistakes kind of playlist before I even started writing. And then when we finished the show and had some things to show her, I wrote her a nice little note and just asked and sent her the first two episodes of the show and she was on board immediately and we paired her with Nora Kroll Rosenbaum who was a composer and the two of them took on her very first scoring job together and she crushed it's so exciting it's so fresh yeah it's really um and it's so her you know yeah it is it's like you get flashes it's like she breaks through every now and then and you remember she's there too and uh yeah i'm i'm a i'm a massive fan i she's fantastic i made a short film with her actually in 2003 with John Malkovich I made these little fashion films and I had...

1:03:14Can I find, are they online somewhere?

1:03:15Bella Freud:Yeah they're on my website it's called Hideous Man and she's absolutely brilliant. Wow. Yeah I remember getting up because she was playing in this club called Trash but she came on at two in the morning so I went to bed and got up and went there and there she was singing um fuck the pain away and i just thought wow this is it you know it's fantastic and she's wonderful she's wonderful and such a such a excellent collaborator i mean for me it was just about giving her some guidance in terms of the types of sounds i was interested it in the only thing i really said to her was i want the score to feel like a heartbeat oh yeah so so track the heartbeat throughout the show of our characters and try to match that and try to make the show feel like your music is emulating a kind of heartbeat a kind of anxiety yeah so that It completely does that.

1:04:24Yeah, it's absolutely chaotic and brilliant. And funny as well. And really funny. Yeah. Peaches, again, I'm drawn to people who have self-awareness and have a sense of humor about themselves.

1:04:38Bella Freud:Yeah, she has all. And yet take themselves seriously. She's not an unserious person, but she can have a laugh. Yeah. It's the best kind of people. Yeah, she's fantastic. And because your co-creator on the writing is Rachel Sennett, right? The actor and writer. And she seems sort of like a literary version of Peaches. She also kind of uses, seems to use her way of dressing and her body as a literary device. And I wondered how that came. How did your partnership come about? I worked with Rachel on a television show called The Idol a couple of years ago. and I had one scene with her and we really bonded and I thought she was hysterically funny and really sharp and her comedy is so specific and I was coming up with the idea for the show and I wanted it to be a brother and sister duo and I always think it's important if you're going to be writing for a character that is outside of your lived experience to authenticate it by way of a different voice.

1:05:50And so I invited Rachel in to help me flesh out the character of Morgan and to authenticate the male-female dynamic at play in the show. And so we sort of created the show together. She said yes, thank God. And it was interesting because we find the same things funny, but our comedy style is different. And it's also, there's a generational divide too, which was also in the show. So I thought it was really fascinating to see her eyes on this idea.

1:06:32Bella Freud:Yeah. And I think it brought this kind of vitality. And I don't know, I love her so much. and she's a hard worker and we just got along and the writing came so easily um the collaboration was so effortless yeah she's fantastic and she has earned her success in this in this industry she's worked really hard for it yeah and made it look effortless because your different styles of irreverence are so complimentary Even in just references, even in the way that we react to crisis, there is a, I find the generation, I mean, I sound like a grandfather at this point, generational divide, as small as it is between mine and the, and Gen, what is, I don't even know what I am.

1:07:36What is this? Gen Z, Gen?

1:07:37Bella Freud:I don't know. Everyone's so much younger than me. that they're calmer they tend to be more sort of realized as people their priorities are different their value system is different they run on different fuel and that is fascinating when you pair it up yeah no it is with sort of two characters who who are related but generationally divided such a good um it's just such a good combination i was i was thrilled to see her name on the credits. That film, Shiva Baby, I think is one of the best things I've ever seen. I'll put it on once a year just to revisit. Yeah. And that, again, was just a group of really talented students, I think, at the time.

1:08:30Bella Freud:Because Emma Seligman... Emma Seligman, I think, was either just out of school or... A brilliant, brilliant director. Yeah. I love her. Molly Gordon. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. And in your wedding scene in Schitt's Creek, you wear a kilt. I was like, oh my God, this is such a beautiful outfit. And then I saw the striped sock, the Tom Brown. So the whole outfit was Tom Brown. And you were wearing my favorite sock in the business. I'm kind of obsessed with socks and uh um the mismatched sort of one leg it was marvelous how did you choose the panic around the wedding was both thrilling and terrifying because it was the culmination of the show i mean it was all was leading to this and as a show that chose to put its costume department forward in the way that we did you had to deliver you had to deliver on on what David was going to wear and what Moira was going to wear and then you had the gag of Alexis buying a white dress that was a wedding dress so good them walking down the aisle looking like they were getting married to each other.

1:10:01At that point, the show was kind of cracking the cultural conversation. And I thought, it has to be the kilt. It just has to be. We have to get that look. We have to get his sort of classic black kilted suit. And I went to New York for a fitting, I believe, for it. Wow. And they sent it to us and it fit, thankfully. But that was the only thing that was loaned.

1:10:33Bella Freud:It's so exquisite. I mean, it just did everything. It kind of was, it wasn't conventional yet. It had so much. And it was kind of the sort of, it was the most conservative David had been to that point. Yeah, yeah. And still had swerve. Totally, because the scene, I think the episode before, his shirt, he was wearing a T-shirt with a gigantic hand on, almost like Edgar Allen pose. Dries, it was a sweatshirt. Oh, it was so good. That was a Dries Van Noten sweatshirt. that we found and there are all these little easter eggs that we planted through the clothes of the show he wears color for the first time in the scene where he's serenaded um by patrick yeah and playing with color and how it relates to their black and white sort of costuming was really interesting as well um but yeah that kilt suit was fantastic and then And I reached out to Tom to dress me for the Emmys.

1:11:42And we did a matching, I wore to the Emmys a matching gray kilt suit when we won. So, yeah, that look was quite a good luck charm. Yeah. And then Moira, you know.

1:11:59Bella Freud:Moira as the bishop. I mean, what, with this ink, I mean, I was speaking. The sort of Pope's hat that we made. We had that made. She was in, it was McQueen, the gown. And then she had gold knee-high Tom Ford stiletto boots on underneath it. And it was spectacular. And golden gloves as well. And golden gloves. Oh, my gosh. And rings and things and the makeup, the hair and makeup department did such a fantastic job with Catherine on that day. And I just remember looking at the monitor, that shot where the curtains open and she walks forward and the look is revealed. And it was like we were emotional.

1:12:56The impact of it. She looked so beautiful. And it was Moira in moments of real stakes always erred on the side of softness. She had the premiere of her show, of her movie, and she went old Hollywood glamour in that champagne gown. And then for the wedding, it was soft. It wasn't aggressive. I mean, the look was out there. but we we all we wanted to give her that generosity of not upstaging her son on his wedding day yeah so she did somehow blend into the background i love the idea of wearing a pope's hat not that was hers that was that was a katherine o 'hara special she said i think i think i should dress like a pope and the minute she said that we knew exactly what to do yeah she really brought

1:13:53Bella Freud:joy to dressing. She really did. And I think it changed the way that she dressed too. I think over the six, six seasons of the show, she learned to experiment with style and she found a fantastic stylist and started to get really playful with her red carpet dressing. And yeah, she's just fantastic so it's so interesting when i heard that she had been influenced by daphne guinness and based semi you look to her for a character and daphne guinness is also someone incredibly unselfconscious about her body she wears these extraordinary things and izzy blow was like that too and i remember izzy blow showing up in the south of france so where we were all staying on holiday and she was wearing mcqueen lace ripped dress and stilettos and it was you know in the middle of the afternoon in the blazing sun and you could see fabulous her body was like as it was made of rubber and there was no it was as if she didn't have a body she right paid no attention to it and there it was this marvelous vehicle this thing and it was the same daphne's like that And then Catherine O 'Hara, just my favorite costume, I think, of her outfit was when they go and see the couple where they've killed the dog on the road by mistake and they've hit the dog and they go and see those.

1:15:34Bella Freud:What was she wearing? You're going to have to remind me. It was just so outlandish. Right. But nobody comments. It's completely normal. And yet it's just a sort of, it's like a geological pattern of heat. And it. That was the, I mean, there was some of the fondest memories of shooting that show was simply putting her into the clothes. Yeah. There's a raff for Jill Sander dress she wears. It's a black PVC strapless dress that we put a shirt underneath. And we had these custom shirts made, these kind of Karl Lagerfeld collars. These high collared shirts that were all custom made for her. And it was this black dress that had a black PVC tie around the waist in order to kind of snatch the waist in.

1:16:26And she wears it when she's being photographed in the field. And it's a moment of like extreme vulnerability for her because she's kind of being used. and there was something so uncomfortable about the look that it made for her own discomfort like it brought about this discomfort in I think the character of Moira but also it required at one point I looked over and two people because it was PVC to tie the belt it was rubbing on against like like kind of plastic on plastic or rubber on rubber. So someone I looked over and they had their foot on her back and they were pulling, two different people were pulling the belt around because it had like a double wrap around her waist and then it had like a tie in it.

1:17:16And in order to get the tie, you had to hyper stretch the PVC so that by the time that you tied it and released it, it would stay. and those are the memories that I cherish with the show and with Catherine is like some of some having to almost look at an instruction manual on how to wear some of

1:17:41Bella Freud:the clothes that we put her in yeah well it's a masterstroke and it was just magnificent in so many ways and you're such a brilliant artist Dan and it's just wonderful to talk to you and thank you so much for being on Fashion Eurasis thank you so much for having me