In short
Erin O’Connor discusses identity, compliance vs selfhood, Catholic working-class upbringing, anxiety and performance, and how fashion modeling became a path to embodied femininity and artistic collaboration.
Guest backgrounds
Erin O’Connor is a highly recognizable British model (face on a First Class postage stamp; successful since her teens). She grew up in an Irish Catholic working-class family in Birmingham with sisters, later entering modeling in 1995. She worked with major designers including Alexander McQueen, Jean-Paul Gaultier, and Valentino; she also references Philip Tracy’s runway shows with Stella Tennant and Anna Fraser.
Key claims
She stayed “detached” by playing extreme characters early (villains, dead people) and hiding behind wigs/corsets, using performance as self-preservation for shyness. Compliance felt “crushing,” and she frames her later life as burying people-pleasing and expressing opinions. She rejects “androgynous” as reductive, saying she feels most feminine and sexy in structured suits. She argues modeling is not passive; it’s disciplined, collaborative, and artistic.
Notable examples
“Frigid” and “Pinhole” teasing at school; late puberty (period at ~16); being forced into a dramatic haircut by Guido; the “razor clam” dress unraveled onstage for McQueen’s Voss show; cigarette huddling for camaraderie; her “Hurry up and wait” memoir title idea.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOFashion Choices and Identity
0:45 to 2:16
Erin discusses her clothing choices and how they reflect her identity.
“jeans Levi's men been wearing the same cut for about three decades there's no veering off there And then my shoes are a family favourite.”
The Duality of Being a Model
2:16 to 7:25
Erin reflects on her modeling career, identity, and the characters she portrays.
“I'm six foot, which means that I have this so-called confidence as I think perhaps everybody else might see it literally when they look at me.”
Childhood and Family Influence
7:25 to 10:12
Erin shares insights about her childhood and the impact of her family background.
The Struggles of Compliance
10:12 to 13:13
Erin discusses the challenges of compliance and self-suppression in her youth.
Navigating Growth and Expression
13:13 to 14:06
Erin talks about her transition into adulthood and the importance of self-expression.
Navigating Childhood Social Dynamics
14:06 to 14:59
Exploring childhood interactions and feelings of belonging.
The Struggles of Puberty and Body Image
15:00 to 17:09
Discussing the challenges of puberty and societal pressures on body image.
“And it really noticed I had a lot of shame about bodily functions, just or really having a body.”
Labels and Shame in Adolescence
17:10 to 18:49
Understanding the impact of derogatory labels during teenage years.
“for a girl who had not blossomed into any feeling of sexuality.”
Entering the Modeling Industry
18:50 to 21:02
Reflecting on the transition into the modeling industry and its expectations.
“I've always been so quietly, but nevertheless stubborn.”
Embracing Femininity and Identity
21:03 to 22:49
Exploring the journey of embracing femininity and personal identity.
“And I left with half a shorn head and it had been dyed jet black.”
Show all 37 chapters
Empowerment Through Personal Growth
22:50 to 25:06
Discussing how personal growth leads to empowerment in the fashion world.
The Evolution of Self in Fashion
25:07 to 27:18
How the understanding of self evolves in relation to the fashion industry.
“that I was quite enough that's it's interesting to get that to sort of hide out within a huge dramatic kind of foil and then to grow into a kind of natural regular place within that Yes.”
Navigating Political Divides and Personal Anxiety
28:01 to 28:34
Explore how political events impact personal identity and anxiety.
“You know, I think this Iran thing is also going to cause a big split in the GOP.”
The Challenge of Balancing Motherhood and Modeling
28:34 to 29:25
Discuss the difficulties of managing modeling career and motherhood.
“And I've got this mission statement I give myself when I'm really scared of a big gig, a work gig.”
The Influence of Philip Tracey and Anthony Price
29:25 to 30:20
Reflect on the impact of notable designers on personal style.
“and get away with it, I'm confronted by being answerable for every decision I make personally and professionally.”
The Dualities of Fashion: Genius and Humor
30:20 to 31:22
Examine the contrasts in the fashion industry between creativity and humor.
Remembering Stella Tennant: A Tribute
31:22 to 32:27
A heartfelt remembrance of model Stella Tennant and her influence.
Building Bonds in the Fashion Industry
32:27 to 33:33
Discuss the camaraderie among models and their experiences in the industry.
“So whenever we were kind of doing these endless show seasons, you know, up to six catwalk shows a day, sort of the opposite.”
The Reality of Hard Work in Modeling
33:33 to 34:37
Discuss the misconceptions surrounding the modeling profession and its demands.
Support Systems in the Fashion World
34:37 to 35:49
Identify the key figures that support models during their careers.
The Journey of Growth in the Fashion Industry
35:49 to 37:07
Explore the evolution of relationships and personal growth in modeling.
Balancing Chaos and Discipline in Fashion Shows
37:07 to 38:18
Understand the balance between chaos and order during fashion shows.
The Life of a Freelancer in Fashion
38:18 to 39:24
Discuss the realities and responsibilities of freelance models.
The Emotional Connection Between Models and Designers
39:24 to 40:36
Explore the deep emotional ties that form between models and designers.
“And all someone sees is you asleep on a bench.”
The Artistic Nature of Fashion and its Impact
40:36 to 42:08
Reflect on fashion as an art form and its significance in society.
“I mean, you know, let's talk about the collaboration and come back to your point.”
The Artistic Nature of Fashion
42:08 to 43:34
Explore the artistic significance of fashion and its societal impact.
“For a lot of people, fashion is a gateway.”
Influence of Iconic Models
43:34 to 47:24
Discussion about the influence of iconic models like Kate Moss on individuals.
“and to feel like you could be a part of it and to deny fashion.”
Understanding Fashion and Femininity
47:24 to 49:41
Delve into the relationship between fashion, femininity, and personal expression.
Suits and Feminine Energy
49:41 to 52:48
Discuss how wearing suits can empower femininity and personal style.
“And you give visual life to it, I suppose.”
Attraction and Fashion Choices
52:48 to 56:00
Examining how clothing choices can influence attraction and perception.
“I've been so startled by hot men with an effeminate edge.”
Reflections on Fashion Choices and Styles
56:00 to 57:40
Exploration of personal fashion choices and the significance of style mistakes.
“Anyway, the amount of stuff I wear and look back and reflect on and cringe over is borderline.”
Memories of Alexander McQueen
58:09 to 1:05:22
Insight into Erin O'Connor's experiences with Alexander McQueen and his design philosophy.
“models really loved him and loved what he asked from them.”
Confrontation in Feminism and Personal Growth
1:05:22 to 1:10:04
Discussion on a challenging encounter with a feminist icon and its impact on personal development.
“And you just pulled all these razor clams off and flung.”
Confrontation and Personal Growth
1:10:04 to 1:11:38
Explore the challenges of confrontation and the personal growth it can spur.
The Importance of Language
1:11:38 to 1:12:45
Discuss the significance of language in effecting change and self-expression.
Childhood Memories and Empathy
1:12:45 to 1:14:11
Reflect on childhood experiences and the development of empathy through storytelling.
“You said when you were little, the worm that you pitted in the garden, you wheeled about in a doll's pram.”
Connection and Kindness in Fashion
1:14:11 to 1:15:26
Celebrate the warmth and kindness found in the fashion industry through personal anecdotes.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:08Bella Freud:Hi, come in.
0:15Bella Freud:Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Erin O 'Connor. Thank you, Bella Freud. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
0:26Erin O'Connor:I can tell you with such pleasure. I'm basically wearing you um and I thought about how that might make you feel but it makes me feel great so I went with it and the slogan feels so perfect for today women made um jeans Levi's men been wearing the same cut for about three decades there's no veering off there And then my shoes are a family favourite. They're known as the Mummy Monsters, based off the Honey Monsters of the 80s. But we love them. They're furry and they're by my lovely friend, Roxander. God, they're so beautiful.
1:13Bella Freud:They look really good with the sock, with the fishnet, the way you push it off balance.
1:21Erin O'Connor:Yeah, it's like be provocative, but make it comfy.
1:25Bella Freud:And you're one of the most recognizable models in Britain and your face is even on a first class postage stamp. And you're only in your 40s and you've been you've been a hugely successful fashion icon since you were a teenager. And how do you stay detached so you don't confuse yourself with an image? That's a corker of a question.
1:50Erin O'Connor:I think it's really how you look at it. But starting out as a teenager, you don't really, you're not in possession of your own identity yet. You're not even consciously aware that it is or could be a work in progress. You are just along for the ride. and I suppose what that meant was I found it really easy I was I was overly adaptable when it came to I suppose taking on board other identities you know and what that meant for me was there was quite a natural detachment because I was very rarely photographed as myself you know there was always some kind of corset or a wig in situ um I got to play really extreme characters and I think even when I was young I knew I wanted to do them justice I didn't need to look like myself and be pretty in front of the camera I think I've always known that I love stories and I'm a storyteller I look really authoritative.
3:14I'm six foot, which means that I have this so-called confidence as I think perhaps everybody else might see it literally when they look at me.
3:26Erin O'Connor:it's quite commanding but I think the girl inside it was still so fragile you know the ego was small and I wasn't quite ready to fill that space I mean I feel like it's a whole life's work in progress but really the reason my career took off I think was because I was quite prepared to play these big characters and it was such a departure from the personality that I have naturally so I was really cool um playing the villains or dead people as a matter of fact and kind of then allowing them to resurface and hefty characters like Salvador Dali or or nefertiti or would you mind terribly almost with an apology um flying in this harness it's only 30 feet in the air you're going to be struck by imaginary lightning
4:32Erin O'Connor:it meant something to me that i could do the hard stuff because it was also a way of i think like concealing shyness yeah um self-preservation in the sense that you can literally hide behind these big characters but somewhere in between something quite amazing happens i'm really crap at doing the getting ready part where it's full backstage and not because I don't want to talk to people but because generally I'm a nervous wreck you know if you want to find me go to a port-a-loo or I may be standing next to a catering table I'm not good with small talk and having lots of people around in limited intimate space and that's got nothing to do with my judgment of others other than I recognize it's just something I simply cannot do so I suppose my love language is when I get to talk on stage and I find it intensely terrifying but as soon as I'm up there it's completely thrilling I suppose that's what's
5:53Bella Freud:good what cigarettes are good for it's like you can just huddle and have a fag yeah and somehow that that moment that feels so kind of challenging you get through it's a camaraderie but of course if you smoke and if you're allowed to smoke I mean you you see how it serves a purpose and certainly in the 90s all the models used to smoke and we could smoke anywhere we wanted
6:20Erin O'Connor:and I think I used to huddle with the girls nevertheless yeah and I went through a really cheap stage of smoking in that I did it and I don't think I ever bought my own pack I was one of those people that didn't smoke but nevertheless smoked quite regularly at different periods yeah I've been that person it's like you can't be addicted because you haven't bought your own you're just scabbing everybody else's and you you grew up in an Irish working class family in
6:55Bella Freud:Birmingham and one of the constants in how your beauty is described is aristocratic and does that feel limited how do you relate to that isn't that hilarious um I feel like I dig my heels
7:12Erin O'Connor:in even more and I feel more intensely proud of the environment I grew up in because I think we were a gang these sort of Irish Catholic compliant misfits and all we did was hang out with each other it was ball games outside it was football it was tennis it was always remembering to come home when the street lamps went on because you knew that was your curfew if you like I don't think we had any notion that of class status we certainly didn't know that my parents struggled a great deal we did however know that they really did put us first I mean it was such a potent world on the other hand I mean talk about being introduced to heavy deep visceral intense imagery I mean growing up Catholic one of the things you look at on repeat are the 12 stations of the cross that's not for the light-hearted so my intro to art was all about death and finality I suppose it was a kind of you sort of I suppose my childhood was very dramatic and it's a bit long-winded I'm getting there but what it did is it is it made me and my sisters these performers and we made up stories constantly about who we were and never really thinking about what we weren't and the great luxury of growing up hungry for success when you're working class and a lot of things are against you let's just say economically is and I'm very unapologetic about this it gives you this really steadfast ambition and this for me personally the right to want to go out and learn so much more and it's not that I would ever lay here and be reductive about my childhood it's quite the opposite I was blessed with this path of somewhere to go yeah and before I really had the language or chance to reflect I suppose it was so much about kind of going well I really do have a lot of room here to to learn and to do different things and and so I think I will and and I did because you wrote this brilliant piece for
10:19Bella Freud:gq in which you said i learned very quickly the fastest way to gain acceptance was doing as i was told yes and um do you remember the first time you actively suppressed yourself in to do that um
10:38Erin O'Connor:i mean compliance is so crushing but i think the real cruelty around compliance is is that you can feel on such a high when you are safe and you have done something and you feel like you've earned the privilege of feeling good and comfortable and it just so happens that there's this great story flying around which my parents like to tell a lot still about me being this sort of when I was I suppose terrible twos why do people say that it's such a weird expression I was not yet filtered so I would have these great big fits and rages on the floor and it was kind of feral and they would just be there and watch me make all of this noise and take up all of this space until one day I just didn't I think it's going into the school system and knowing that I was going to be doing things like confession you know the priest would come to school and we would go and sit in a room with him and we would go through the ritual of prayer and then when you told your sin you were given penance and so it wasn't just a theory of mine it was a reality so this good girl I'm a reformed former people pleaser and it's taken me until definitely being in my mid-40s to really work out not work out why but to work at burying that and being as disruptive as I can especially if something really means something
12:42Bella Freud:to me yeah that's great to um you know to be to liberate yourself from something so tyrannical
12:52Erin O'Connor:yeah it does feel like I mean it was it is and I think what it made me was a very intense serious child who became very timid and aware of limitations and I think when we all grow up there is certainly with my kids now with my sons I think there is this expectation I have of them and it's the only one and it's to you know have your opinion express yourself enunciate your position all is welcome and you must at all costs feel that that is okay unacceptable embraced and encouraged because all I can do from my own experience is the opposite so I have real dark comedy about a lot of my childhood because I was also really dramatic you know I remember going to kids parties and really wanting to join in and play with them but I suppose I came across as some old lady I would sit and talk to the mums around the table because they have these really great stories and I would feel instantly comfortable in their company and then being in their presence it felt like you were kind of maybe at court I suppose and you were in the presence of these ladies these women um and I suppose for a child that really wanted in but didn't quite know how to always interact with others that was that was my place I was always better talking with grown people grown-ups because how was your transition from girlhood to woman
14:50Bella Freud:And was your mother supportive through that experience? I didn't have my, I don't think my mother had any kind of support going through puberty or any. And she didn't show that to me. And it really noticed I had a lot of shame about bodily functions, just or really having a body. That's right. And I wondered what that was like for you at that moment in your life.
15:26Erin O'Connor:I think there was a disconnect, certainly. And when I came into a room, I was noticeable. But what I really wanted to be was avoidable. You know, when you're not in your body, you don't know how to share space and express yourself. You just don't. and I suppose I mean I was so late to puberty my period didn't come until I was just I think I was just about to turn 16 so it was really late you see on the other hand you've got I'm 183 centimeters I'm basically a walking right angle I have these really large feet no boobs and this defiant nose that just kept on giving and so I almost felt so detached from my body that it was I felt like I was betraying myself yeah it's like so interesting how do you peace how do you make peace with that how do you and of course kids are brilliant and evil and I'm asked a lot about treatment in the industry, but I have such potent memories of being teased and boundaries being broken, you know, because I didn't have boobs and because I was frigid.
17:05Erin O'Connor:And one of my, I mean, the most revolting name you could think of for a girl who had not blossomed into any feeling of sexuality. The boys at school used to call me Frigid. And one of the most unsavory names that they did to shame me was they used to call me Pinhole. It's just, you know, because everybody knew that I was still a virgin. And so she keeps cropping up, Virgin Mary. She was a virgin. The shame of being a virgin. Playing the Virgin Mary when I was 11, it was my first starring role. But it was pure and it was sanitary and there was nothing to do with sensory or touch or smell or getting in touch with yourself.
18:01Erin O'Connor:I think we were actively discouraged growing up Catholic from doing just that. And then, of course, on top of it, you've got this powerful imagery where a lot of the time the martyrs are naked. There's so much kind of blood and flesh and gore. So confusing, isn't it? At the same time. I suppose I was really frigid and I was very cautious.
18:30Bella Freud:They don't see how you can be frigid if you've never had sex. Well, absolutely. It's a label of someone who probably doesn't know anything about sex, which is most school boys.
18:43Erin O'Connor:Yeah, but somehow they've either been curious or they've relented through peer pressure. And that's another dichotomy I have with myself. I've always been so quietly, but nevertheless stubborn. so I don't think I've done I don't do many things um without a fight and I don't know it's hard to kind of fathom out where that resilience actually began but one of the theories I have is then coming into the modeling industry in 95 I was spotted and I came at a very convenient period of time where we'd all had these incredible supermodels there was nobody on the planet that didn't know a supermodel at least one of them and I didn't have access to fashion but I did have more magazine and you know that they were just everywhere the imagery was everywhere wasn't it yeah um but I was supposed to be the kind of anti-beauty slash backlash to that so here I am thinking I've been spotted to be a model and my moment has come and then all of a sudden I'm hearing phrases in the newspaper like anti-beauty and um i where do you go with that because i know it's another label again and it's restrictive and i suppose i wasn't really able to embrace the potential of what i felt was a straightforward feminine woman and then I'd like to thank Guido hairdresser and Linda Cantello because I was forced into almost forced into my own version of womanhood simply by turning up for a with David Sims, a swoon.
21:02Erin O'Connor:And I arrived with long hair down to my waist, like sheets.
21:10Bella Freud:Yeah.
21:11Erin O'Connor:And I left with half a shorn head and it had been dyed jet black. And something incredible happened. This was the opposite of repression. I was so ready I think for this reveal once I'd gotten over the shock of having clippers on the back of my neck I began to understand that womanhood what a it's just the notion of womanhood it's about a feeling and exuding femininity for me and I've always felt so feminine so I found my own way of expressing so my long neck replaced my cleavage yeah my hands spoke in ways that were to express my nose instead of trying to hide something I felt was sticking out was something I you know I wanted it to stick out all of a sudden I wanted it to command I wanted it to have its own authority if you will when you look confident I think you then have the chance maybe or the opportunity to try to catch up yeah and live in that body in that mind and honor it I suppose.
22:50Bella Freud:And did you feel as though the fashion industry kind of embraced you in that respect that that we saw your we completely saw your beauty and valued it and I mean all the the videos of Jean-Paul Gaultier and Valentin all these people just loving you and being so grateful for what you brought to because clothes are nothing without a being in them and you have this ability to light up these clothes and bring all this this kind of nuance and this excitement and thrill to you know for a fashion designer you're a total dream and I mean that's so lovely to hear that's so lovely to hear I think it felt really empowering and I still stuck with those
23:52Erin O'Connor:extreme characters and the pleasure they gave me to perform but I think I began then to feel so embodied so I knew what my purpose was and slowly there was an evolution of these characters and the dead people died out and you know these women came forth um the makeup lessened the the accoutrements the accessories they they weren't needed anymore there was this moment of a true reveal a reveal that I was ready to make and perhaps wouldn't have been able to transition into being me without all of the extremities if that makes sense yeah I kind of I kind of needed to have the the madness of of being sort of doled up and painted and from a different era and time and in order to learn how to strip back and at the end of the day when the lights get shut down people starting to go home just sitting opposite me and knowing and feeling
25:12Bella Freud:that I was quite enough that's it's interesting to get that to sort of hide out within a huge dramatic kind of foil and then to grow into a kind of natural regular place within that Yes.
25:33Erin O'Connor:And to feel, I think, quite gorgeous because you've sort of done the emotional work and you know who you are. And if you've really, there's a sense that for the people I really connect with, when you really know who you are, that there's a process. there's there's a there can be a bit of a mourning process when you stop knowing how to do things and live the way that you've lived because it simply just does not work anymore and um but what it does is it just opens up this possibility for well how do i reconcile how do i continue to do my job professionally um and keep going with with the notion of who I know I am now and and I get asked a lot because I started full-time again last year after quite a long hiatus how different is the industry and I keep kept coming back to the same problem and my answer inwardly before I started trying to explain was well how different am i this is such a moment i do feel good and it's not about beauty hacks or although i'm very very pleased that you know we have those it's it's about just going in and feeling so much better yeah about you life you agonize less over the bullshit
27:17Bella Freud:For the last 10 years, everything in American politics has basically revolved around one man.
27:24Erin O'Connor:And as a political journalist who came of age during Donald Trump's rise in 2016, I've had a front row seat. I am officially running for president of the United States. It's going to be only America first. America first.
27:42Bella Freud:Thousands of supporters of President Trump stormed the U.S. Capitol building. But is it possible to talk about politics without talking about Donald Trump? That's the question I'm going to ask in our new show from Vox. The idea of like a post-Trump or not exactly Trump-focused show can exist because he's not really driving any agenda items. It really does feel like so reactive. You know, I think this Iran thing is also going to cause a big split in the GOP. So far it doesn't among like people who say they're MAGA voters are still with Trump.
28:11Erin O'Connor:But like for the first time, you see on a major issue, open opposition from the start of this war. I'm Estet Herndon and welcome to America Actually. I've got this sort of alter ego and I call her Irene. And she really pisses me off. She's quite gloomy and she moans a lot. And I've got this mission statement I give myself when I'm really scared of a big gig, a work gig. and I'll just go, off you pop, Irene, or go to bed, Irene. It sounds really bonkers, but I'm able just to put her away and just be authentically there, me.
28:54Bella Freud:Yeah, it's such a good idea because the sort of fear can, it can kind of, well, it gets in the way, obviously, and then to give it a persona, you can address it in a more matter-of-fact way so that sounds that's right and good I know
29:14Erin O'Connor:anxiety hinders progress and I think about that a lot now being a mother and juggling the whole full-time modeling experience and where I would sort of bob on the periphery a lot of the time and get away with it, I'm confronted by being answerable for every decision I make personally and professionally.
29:44Bella Freud:Because when you started, you were a part of a small group of British models, very successful. Yes. With Stella Tennant and Anna Fraser and you, and you all walked for the genius milliner Philip Tracy when he used to show. and um did you ever because um Anthony Price the designer who recently passed and did you ever do any fittings with him because he was I mean apart from being a an incredible maker of clothes on on another level he was so his articulacy in the oh he was so funny and so dark and dry exactly
30:29Erin O'Connor:so on the on the one hand you've got this just this genius human being who can create and wants to promote the silhouette of dreams and he did that so superbly well and faultlessly it was always all about maintaining the woman within it but the sarcasm and the quips and the dark humor it almost didn't match the you know and but I kind of loved that about him and I love that you could sort of always just get a bit down and dirty with him and have a gossip and a catch-up and yet knowing that he was always completely with you you know and there's that there are designers for me I've always felt that way they they're so with you they want you to go out and feel like an amazing woman yeah um and you're wearing their creations and that is the only way those two elements can really come together in a i think powerful and interesting way and to honor dear stella who i miss and i think about every day she was the real deal you know and i'm not talking about you know aristocracy and the fact that i sort of inadvertently became one according to everybody that wasn't english because of who i got to knock around with honor it's the same thing and i would confidently say you never met another more brilliant person than Stella who was kind brilliant original cool chic and there really was no one like her and she was the last person to know that she was a mentor to me and I really looked up to those girls and the whole class thing is such a load of shite I don't want to get I don't want to use this opportunity to be political I want to feel like you know I want to feel personal and it dissolves when you meet people and you rely on each other and you respect each other it's fantastic and there's all of this madness about models having these great bitch fights and I'm not saying that didn't happen, but for the purpose of this story, we were known then as the netball team.
33:09Erin O'Connor:We were the British netball team. So whenever we were kind of doing these endless show seasons, you know, up to six catwalk shows a day, sort of the opposite. We had each other. yeah and we kind of grew up in an industry that doesn't require reality in any regard or there's no sense to it it's actually it sort of pushes beyond the boundaries of womanhood it's a it's otherworldly it's ethereal so to have this grounded gang of girls was something I really I can't tell you how much that meant to me and it means to me still because I was looking at pictures
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33:55Bella Freud:of um of you asleep on the floor waiting for a fitting and thinking I suppose now the sort of sound bite is oh that's so exploitative and whatever but on the other hand it's it's an amazing opportunity when you're young to learn how to work hard as long as you're not being exploited yes and it's it's a kind of a different difficult balance of what would you do now how how does someone learn how to go beyond themselves so that they can if they need to yeah and uh and modeling is such a it's a really hard you know good models work so hard and it's always one of those things that you know one of the things that irks me a lot is this oh yes modeling you don't have to do anything except for stand there it's like have do you know no and there's no investigation there's no getting to know and that drives me around the bend so I always
35:03Erin O'Connor:like to validate how I love that you advocate for that it's so great and you you know what having
35:11Bella Freud:you know when I've worked with models they're so they make everything come to life they are they are the spirit and soul and the the graft of of our industry and and I want I wondered I remember Kate Moss saying that the hairdressers and the makeup artists have your back and I wondered who your backstage parental figures were yeah totally i mean we've talked about the girls the models themselves um but i think it came a lot from you know for example sam sam
35:48Erin O'Connor:mcknight for me yeah and then you had pat's mother there was this yes there was this legend there are two ways I guess to look at this there was this real there was this real maternal instinct um that played out and it was gratefully received you know um it's nice that you get to be creative like you say and you hone that discipline and you know it's going to be physically the endurance and we should get that because of course quite many stories about good your shows but without people around you that you feel safe with or regarded and in the mix with life can feel pretty lonely yeah and for a person that's perhaps not always been the greatest initiator of communication it's the best seeing in the world and you know they're my friends still after 30 years that doesn't come from nowhere it's consistency and I think we've all grown up a lot too and the fact that we're still here is feels like a bit of a triumph I think we've all grown up together it doesn't matter at what age that began it's recognizing and participating in an industry that is familiar and that's such a great way of taking a load off you don't even have to have the chat you're just there i mean there's also a theory that i call it if i ever wrote or finished a book it would be called hurry up and wait oh that's so good it's got to be a t-shirt title hurry up and wait just the demand on models to get that fitting you know the one that you've already done on the same day and then all of a sudden there's a there's chaos or there's a disaster that's happened and you get out of bed and it could be one in the morning and yes I come back to your point about exploitative you get there you think you're going to be whisked straight in and all of a sudden you're not so you're hurried and then you have to wait there is the the reality that your time is dependent on others but it does afford at the same time this discipline and respect because there is nothing predictable about producing a collection yeah and you respect and honor all of the people that are trying to work together to finish the garment and get it out so that it's ready and could be seen by the world and often in those cases when I was sitting there chomping away on Haribo I don't know why that memory came up everyone eats that you know then there would be a car home and a later call time and just an acknowledgement that we'd all had this respectful emergency meeting we came together we knew what it was about and also that's the life of a freelancer I'm afraid you take the work when it's happening literally and who did you like who was the weight worth who did you like
39:36Bella Freud:to wait for most when because it's not like a designer will be sitting in there you know having dinner or something they'll be making something and trying to get it ready that's right and your return is the greatest gift to that designer because they can shape it on to you and then And when you come out in the show, everyone is just speechless with kind of the impact of the beauty of the entire thing. I mean, it's really something. And all someone sees is you asleep on a bench. It's like, oh, it's such a terrible industry. And in many ways it is. But there's this allegiance between a model and a designer and everyone that surrounds that, that when it works, it is, you know, there's such a, it's an incredible moment.
40:35Bella Freud:Who did you love to, whose dress did you love to come out in the most?
40:41Erin O'Connor:I mean, you know, let's talk about the collaboration and come back to your point. There is nothing passive about being a muse. You know, it's almost anti-feminist to say you're a muse. But for me, it's just screams collaboration and mutual respect in a dress. you know you you you do get knackered there's no getting around that you do it is arduous you are worried about bringing somebody's creation to life it's a hefty responsibility never mind you know platform shoes on a glass runway with a blinding light and you want to go out and you You have limited time and sometimes with the greatest of designers, ironically, limited resources for the production and the invention of a collection and a show.
41:42Erin O'Connor:So, you know, your time out there really matters. And I call it healthy pressure because I want to deliver. I want to give them as much as I enjoy the liberation of hopefully particularly with couture in mind creating a visual that will be long lasting if not forever a memory in people's minds of something that was special and meaningful and not to reduce designers or models or all of the amazing contributors the people that it takes to pull that stuff together and that it can't be considered artistic
42:29Erin O'Connor:my experience has always been so different
42:35Bella Freud:yeah I mean obviously I don't think I mean everyone in our world knows that it is artistic it's and I think there's just a sort of laziness in in the attitude towards fashion and it's not considered poetry and it is it is I mean it's a huge it's hugely affecting in our society so um
43:04Erin O'Connor:I think it's a bit of a passé approach yeah it is and but it's equally so nice to talk about it Yeah. For a lot of people, fashion is a gateway. It opens the door to people perhaps realizing that their strong suit might be something creative and artistic and to then delve more into the world of art, literally, and to feel like you could be a part of it and to deny fashion. the same status is incorrect it's blind it's blinkered it's blinkered that's it you know it's missing something yeah it's yeah it's kind of baseless but it's convenient because
44:01Bella Freud:it kind of keeps you there as the poor relation yeah when culturally a lot of people express
44:09Erin O'Connor:themselves so beautifully and artistically through the clothes that they wear on their back you know do you have a favorite model loads
44:26loads um yasmin guri oh wow yeah
44:36Erin O'Connor:incredible see I can't even say anything a visual came and I see her sashaying you know it's that walk Kate how many successful women working in the fashion industry only need one name yeah she when we were kind of mid-teens started rocking up in all of these magazines wearing the iconic the now iconic baby doll dress with the gazelle shoes and the other part of that uniform was having really skinny eyebrows but she was cool and she was kind of not she was so much more she was kind of the girl that you would really want to be friends with
45:29Erin O'Connor:so first of all you have to imagine me plucking all my eyebrows off to emulate Kate Moss and then you need to go directly to Star Trek what was his name the guy with the really pointy eyebrows what was his name Spock was it spock oh yeah i mean no i'm glad i'm hairy and they grew back quickly but i think it's the greatest compliment in the world when you see someone and you kind of want to embody not just their style but the presence they have and how they affect you and i continue to be hopelessly starstruck around her and i don't think i've ever had a conversation with her that didn't sound completely discombobulated and mad because she's kind of she grew up I grew up looking at her growing up and really living and not just the good and the successful and the breakthroughs she's someone you want to really know because she's real yeah she sees everything I mean she's
46:39Bella Freud:she's the most discerning person one of the most discerning people i've ever met she she sees everything she's interested in everything yes she's not just fascinating she is interested so her repertoire for noticing things is it's like oh my god really you saw that and that you know she's so um oh she's just she's connected fantastic company yeah and she values
47:06Erin O'Connor:how people want to connect with her and I think that's also quite a British model yeah thing to kind of culturally just go all in together and I'm I'm so grateful for for the hard work really of having often to go above and beyond the expectation of modeling or how people perceive models to be because you know you've got an extra string to your bow you're kind of forced into situations often where they get into public speaking and acting and music and it goes across the board and so yes there are a lot of long frustrating ways but there's also this the most amazing portal into and I think this is what we do so well here in this country is
48:00Bella Freud:liberating across the arts I agree and it's so exciting to then have that mix of tradition combined with rebellion
48:17Erin O'Connor:but somehow at the same time when I see all of these models that there is this thing in common that we all have and it's we're also thinking people and I think we also project that through the imagery we do because being hyper vigilant and noticing people whether it's energies or or you know it's a bit strange to say it's a talent it's more of a survival when you're young but you really learn to read a room and you then really learn to understand where someone is coming from and then convey the story yeah whether it's print or on a runway I'm not condoning hypervigilance because it often comes from a place I think of wanting to feel safe but if I kind of skew with it a bit that sense of belonging when a project is great and there's mutual acknowledgement of one another you can't beat that there aren't there's a reason why there's only one naomi there's a reason why there's only one karen elson there's because they get the brief they know what they're doing and it goes beyond a conversation because you can't put it into words It's an essence.
49:42Erin O'Connor:And you give visual life to it, I suppose.
49:46Bella Freud:Yeah. Because you've also said you don't love the term androgynous. And I agree, it sort of squashes the idea of sexuality. And I think being boyish as a girl is a particular kind of femininity. And I wondered what you find sexy.
50:05Erin O'Connor:Such a good question. it's kind of reductive isn't it the idea that well if you can't be obviously feminine then you've kind of got to be this thing that isn't ticking those boxes yeah it's just weirdly
50:23Bella Freud:kind of un emotive as a kind of term it just shuts down it's it does and actually it's quite a hot
50:33Erin O'Connor:thing the straddling both I think I I always feel I've always felt feminine but I always feel the sexiest in a suit which is I think where we you and I have our own little love affair because I've loved so much wearing your clothes over the years and it goes beyond calling them in for a shoot but it's how you wish to be if you're celebrating you're just being you and you want to go out and most recently you hooked me up with this amazing electrical blue electric blue suit and I want to tell you where that this whole fitting came from because I was asked to be a bridesmaid to someone I really love but I didn't quite know how to put the dress on she was brilliant she just gave one code it was blue and I ran it by her and I said are you are you all right with me wearing a suit and she said of course I am so there was this long line of really sort of sexy different women in these great nonetheless very feminine dresses but I also got to feel authentically feminine because I was in this fabulous blue tailored number oh I'm so pleased that's great that's so great you know and maybe that's a point I it's not about wanting the purpose isn't always about being
52:17Erin O'Connor:boyish but it's feeling for me when I wear a great suit and then you've got that right angle it's not dismissing the feminine it's kind of holding her yeah in place and this great structure for me personally it highlights that and I get to feel sensual and sensitive within it it's the best frame for feeling feminine
52:47Bella Freud:yeah well that's so well put I'm so glad it resonates it does I always remember I've always loved that little photograph of the poet Rambo in the oval where he has this sort of punk rock hair and I think someone hand colored it and you can see the edge of his his jacket yeah and the skew with bow tie and he looks like he's been asleep under a hedge he probably was because he had no money yeah and I thought you can anyone can wear that and be the kind of this kind of thread of um some sort of some sort of femininity or yes sexual tension in some way and and that's where i like to start with a suit and i like it somehow to it's alluring yeah it's a kind of
53:48Erin O'Connor:signaling yeah it's a signaling of saying okay you know there's there's more to this is there's something underneath and you know i personally find men with this feminine energy to be really hot because and it's not it doesn't have to be the literal but but the boldness and the confidence of them wearing clothes that people may perceive to be for women only is really sexy in an almost alarming way. I've been so startled by hot men with an effeminate edge. And it comes back to the thing I was talking about earlier. You know they know who they are, And that is the most compelling thing whenever I'm attracted to another human being.
54:51Bella Freud:Yeah, yeah. Because if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?
55:01Erin O'Connor:Well, let's just be honest. It's perplexing. It's perplexing. I remember going on this date and I talked to this guy for a bit and he was very confident and I loved that energy about him and he rocked up in this really pointy pair of shoes and he was tall which meant that he was wearing pointy shoes on on quite large feet and it's not that I had secondhand embarrassment or anything like that but I found them to be a literal distraction yeah and I kept trying to stop breaking eye contact and I had this thing this this noise going around in my head it was
55:56Erin O'Connor:and trying to get back into the space with this guy when in the meantime I'm thinking I can't get clown and circus out of my head and um mercifully it didn't stop me I think we both got lucky that night with each other um but the real reveal Bella was his feet and I'll never slag off a bad pair of shoes again because they looked like they were waving at me it was just I've never forgotten those feet and so whilst maybe we can't do anything with our um much needed anatomy we can forgive someone for wearing a pair of crap shoes
56:40Bella Freud:that's so funny I don't know like a kind of alert like yeah don't take your eye off this shoe because I'm hiding something yeah I'm masking being you know just being so distracted I'm
56:56Erin O'Connor:You're now in a circus and you're a clown and I'm trying desperately to hold eye contact with you. Anyway, the amount of stuff I wear and look back and reflect on and cringe over is borderline. I mean, it's so all is forgiven, right? There's a lot of mistakes that can happen before you know what your style is. I'm crap at trends. I never know what's in. I refuse to let things go that I love if they're out and so yeah let's just get to the fleshy part of the matter literally with people because I think that's worth everything yeah hi I'm Brene Brown and I'm Adam Grant and we're here to invite you
57:47Bella Freud:to the curiosity shop a podcast that's a place for listening wondering thinking feeling and questioning. It's going to be fun. We rarely agree. But we almost never disagree. And we're always learning. That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday. You walked for Alexander McQueen and he was one of the greatest designers in the world and models really loved him and loved what he asked from them. And what did he ask from you?
58:23Erin O'Connor:first of all he is still the designer for me um he's my favorite designer because I wanted to give so much whenever I did a show because he gave me so much he gave everyone so much he was all about the misfit misfits the the um unpalatable the ugly the dark the scary the but he had this way of communicating that so powerfully and turning into something not ambiguous and corrected but utterly beautiful that there was beauty in something that had perhaps been had in some way suffered or had small in some way or insignificant and to be able then to take that as the basis of creating the desirable collection one that again the added pressure would be that there has to be commercially viable to actually sell is so bold because I think we can all we can all agree that the 90s was all about experimentation but it was still all about but the end result has to be beautiful I think he was the first person to challenge the notion of beauty and to give the insignificant voice person time era culture a voice and to make it something powerful and uncomfortable yeah I like and I love that confrontation because I mean we all stretched our legs I think when Alexander was around we did because there was a lot of thinking that needed to happen around what he was saying and one of the great ironies of our relationship together was I could piece together everything we ever said to each other and it might be a relatively short conversation we didn't really speak but we understood each other fully it was through gestures hands a look certainty um understanding the brief was always helpful background information but having this intimacy with one another that kind of didn't require
1:01:27Bella Freud:words was quite remarkable because he seemed to be able to make a dress for someone or an outfit that sprang you could see someone being sprung from yeah from everything just and those watching those early shows online and shows us they rarely translate onto camera they they never had this sort of wildness but his did because and it was something to do with how how sort of ecstatic all the models it was like they they were just someone had given the them these clothes that made everyone so intoxicated and so intense yes and every element of beauty about each person was just taken to another level.
1:02:25Bella Freud:Completely.
1:02:26Erin O'Connor:Really extreme and so extraordinary. Even the materials he used, they, you know, I remember the Voss show. That is a standout recollection of, you know, trying the razor clam dress on for the first time. and you've sort of still got or you believe you could still smell the sticky old seaside you know you know it's been dug up from somewhere and hasn't had its own reveal for perhaps its whole existence and here you are helping to transform it into an artistic couture gown um and you see that was always a very clever thing about him that there was that there can be no debate that the finished article was also always extremely captivating whether you thought it was beautiful or shocking he just did that because that's what he wanted to do so he did and I know that's a very obvious sentence but at the same time so many people don't and they can't or perhaps they don't know how to but he always stuck to his guns and I think we were also on board with that because what he was allowing us to do was not to perform it was never performative I think by the time the show happened we got to be fully who we were in that moment too so I'm reminded of the unravel of the razor club dress during the Voss show and with great wisdom just before I went out I faltered and I said oh my god what do I do and we just looked at each other and he said just do something and it was so straightforward I took it and used it Meanwhile, then, I'm not really sure what came over me, but I'll tell you what it was.
1:04:38Erin O'Connor:It was a complete wash of liberation. I unraveled on stage. And I don't know if you, well, for all your viewers, just for the purpose of giving a description, it was in a sort of almost like an asylum, a lunatic asylum, which is not very, it's not PC and quite rightly so these days. But back then we were encouraged to actually let go, which is a gift. It is a gift to be given that trust, to be given the space. And to, in that moment, feel like everything makes sense. I'll take it every time. It was great.
1:05:22Bella Freud:And you just pulled all these razor clams off and flung. Yeah. Yeah, adrenaline, I think, got me through that experience
1:05:32Erin O'Connor:because it wasn't until I came off that I realized I was a complete martyr and my hands were a little, yeah, they were bloody. I mean, they were paper cuts. Wow.
1:05:47Erin O'Connor:It's, yeah, and that's adrenaline for you.
1:05:50Bella Freud:You wrote about being at a televised roundtable discussion and invited to debate with one of your favourite feminist authors. And you introduced yourself, but she refused to shake your hand. And have you any idea what this gesture of prejudice towards you was, what she was objecting to?
1:06:15Erin O'Connor:Yes. I think she had heard from somebody else that she'd offended me. And it was a complicated time in fashion. It was around the size zero debate. And she had been brought in to help and support and to give reason to why the debate was important. And through the grapevine, she'd heard that I had a problem with her. And I just about held myself together with my script being a bit starstruck, trying to do all of the things to hold my hand out to say how thrilled I was to meet her and it didn't go that way um but it was such a distinct mark of I'm going to dress you down and you know it was probably one of the first times that it was quite a harsh
1:07:25Erin O'Connor:disapproval and yeah it was one of the best days because I was almost forced into this space where I just had to learn to not let the world fall out of my ass when I did not get somebody's approval of me or there wasn't a like-minded reaction and it was tough and yes it was unwarranted but equally I then I've thought about it a lot over the years but I could kind of come back to the same point I was so gutted that we couldn't just be two women having a great chat together that there had to be in some way some hierarchy and I think the place I came to in the end was, well, God, I kind of, it's not that I can sympathize with her.
1:08:23Erin O'Connor:What she must have carried on her shoulders to be this fierce feminist in a way that we don't, it's, you don't have to be masculine or intimidating to have a feminist voice anymore. You can still be very feminine from many different walks of life. But her era of feminism and the fight was reflected in the fact that she was prepared to have taken on this idea of me and she ran with it. and it was about the balance I think of reconciling order in her mind about who was more
1:09:16Bella Freud:powerful yeah I mean it's so rude apart from anything and I think it just seems so sort of limited to be part of a movement and reductive and being in a movement it's a responsibility to have language and to listen to other people and you know try to create some sort of understanding
1:09:44Erin O'Connor:yes it seemed um that then would speak collectively on behalf of not just young women working in fashion but women collectively throughout the world yeah about the importance of
1:10:04Erin O'Connor:autonomy and a greater discussion from somebody as influential as her could have taken place but the old me did kind of bomb and I shut down and you know the old me would have cried and just the taxi but I couldn't leave because I was there to do a job so I stayed but because it was so excruciating I just this shift happened I could not live in that horrible feeling that space anymore and I began to sort of try and look at things from her perspective and I suppose the shock really of I think you only make those moves if you also feel intimidated I just wish we were more honest sometimes about feeling angsty and intimidated because I think it would be a much nicer conversation you know if we could just get over those barriers I think that's very generous of you thanks Bella when we have tea later I'll tell you the other things she said
1:11:20Bella Freud:I think any type of talking down is nobody learns anything and it's it's just a horrible style but
1:11:29Erin O'Connor:here's the thing she did it she did that and she saw no reason to change but what I took from it was it was my time to change I had been I was armed and ready to not put up with
1:11:47Bella Freud:with I suppose being reduced yeah yeah but also the importance of agency and having agency over
1:11:55Erin O'Connor:yourself and I'm still not good at being confrontational I loathe it but when somebody gives you the opportunity to expand on your own self-development and find your feet and stand up and be heard then maybe in the end you can kind of thank them but I suppose you can find the
1:12:15Bella Freud:language and language is the most important thing in the world because it's the you know it's the mechanism for change um and you you mentioned this um this title for your possible memoir hurry up and wait yeah you you have to because you i read that you started a memoir a while ago and that you said stories from your childhood have been returning. And you mentioned something. You said when you were little, the worm that you pitted in the garden, you wheeled about in a doll's pram. It made me think of In Les Miserables when it begins and Cosette has a pet nail that is her doll because she doesn't have anything.
1:13:08Bella Freud:And I wondered, how do you feel? Are you excited about the idea of revealing your voice as well as your beauty?
1:13:17Erin O'Connor:I think when I always talk about the lowly worm, mainly in my own head, because it's something that just keeps coming back round. Why did I? What was that? The worm was far from attractive and had limited resources, didn't move very much. but there was this empathetic pull I felt to give it the same VIB treatment as my doll Charlotte in the pram so she got ousted and I picked up this worm and I put it in the pram and I wanted that worm to feel everything but lowly it sounds bonkers I know but I was quite a serious intense child and I I really felt things and I felt sorry for it is all I can say it was just there on its own in the you know in the garden and I just wanted to take care of it to let it to let the worm know that I would and I could maybe it's like my um my shrink says you're everyone in your dream
1:14:29Bella Freud:yeah so these are all these aspects of you of yourself who you and how you care for them and
1:14:36Erin O'Connor:you care for your beautiful doll charlotte and the and the inner worm and yeah the desirable bit
1:14:44Bella Freud:that's not evident at all and suggests a very lovely disposition that you have and you've always been like that I mean over the years I've encountered you in in the fashion world you're always somebody you always are so courteous and you always say hello and you're so you're just a lovely person to bump into and so are you well thank you so much for sharing all these amazing stories with me today so much fun so lovely it was great thank you for being on
1:15:24Erin O'Connor:Thank you for having me. It was a joy.
From the publisher
Erin O’Connor is a British supermodel, writer, and advocate. She grew up in the West Midlands and was scouted as a teenager at the iconic 90’s cult show The Clothes Show live.
Erin O’Connor’s modelling debut was in i-D magazine in 1996, shot by Juergen Teller. She soon rose to prominence, walking the runway for esteemed designers including Prada, Gucci, Chanel, Alexander McQueen, Christian Dior, Versace, John Galliano and Jean-Paul Gaultier. More recently, Erin has walked for Tom Ford and Willy Chavarria.
Karl Lagerfeld once described O’Connor as “one of the best models in the world” and Erin has been photographed by industry giants including Richard Avedon, Steven Meisel, Nick Knight, Mario Testino, David Bailey, Patrick Demarchelier, Peter Lindbergh and Tim Walker. Erin featured in the Channel 4 documentary This Model Life in 2003, and has since written and presented two documentaries about fashion for BBC Radio 4, as well as contributing articles to British Vogue, The Times, i-D, and GQ.
Alongside her modelling, Erin is an advocate for model well-being and mental health. Through her position as Vice Chair of the British Fashion Council Erin founded Model Sanctuary, a non-profit initiative, providing support and resources for models during fashion week.
Since 2011, Erin has been an ambassador for Save the Children and is an ambassador for Borne, a UK-based medical research charity dedicated to preventing premature birth and improving outcomes for mothers and babies.
In recognition of her substantial contributions to fashion and charitable causes, Erin was appointed Member of the Order of the British Empire in 2017 by Queen Elizabeth II.
In this episode of Fashion Neurosis, Bella Freud and Erin O’Connor discuss walking for Alexander McQueen, coming from a working class background and being described as aristocratic, and holding her own against an unfriendly Feminist.
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