Fashion Neurosis with Beth Ditto

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1:10Hi, come in.

1:18Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Beth Ditto. Thank you, Bella. Can you tell me what clothes you're wearing today and why you chose them? I'm wearing an H &M dress and these boots that I love by Stella Luna. They're my favourite. They kind of always make me feel rough around the edges in a good way. So they kind of like always make me feel put together, I guess. And they're comfortable. They look good on the sofa as well. I always love to have the shoes on the sofa, even though it's controversial. Yeah. But, you know, it's your house. Yeah, exactly. My rules. It's your house and you live here. And you're the lead singer and songwriter of the indie rock band Gossip, which has sold over 10 million records worldwide.

2:10Is that the real number? Yep, that's what I read. Or is it more? Oh, for sure, no. Definitely not more. 10 million records worldwide. And you've recently reformed. And you're also famous for your amazing outfits and for your campaigning for LGBTQ plus rights. And you describe yourself as shy. How does that manifest? Shy. I don't know if shy is the right word. I don't know how to explain it because I'm somebody who can't stop talking no matter how much I want to stop talking. And so, I don't know. It's almost like autopilot or something. Like it just, things just come out and like they just, I don't know.

3:02It's hard to explain. I never felt like a very smart person or, you know, I'm not refined and I don't really give a shit. But, you know, I realized lately, like in my later years, that like part of the problem is that like honestly, like, you know, I'm always known for interrupting people and like just talking all the time and I'm loud. Being loud is just, I think, growing up in a big family and just having a big voice, I think. But, you know, I feel like it's like I talk so much because it's kind of like my version of being quiet. The way that shy people sit in a corner or like, you know, introverts at a party.

3:45I'm really most of my closest friends are introverts. But there's a relief when I'm out in public and someone is louder than me and more like hammy than me because I'm always like. But to me, it's almost like people being silent. it's it's hard but it does it's not that deep but but I learned that I have ADD and so that and that my brain thinks so I mean it sounds like you're like my brain is just so fast but like it moves on to things so quickly but it's also like I don't know it's very weird but I'm just like oh like I didn't know people thought different like it had different thought processes I don't know it's I don't like to perform and I don't like intimate like performances like I don't like when it's just like three people in a room I don't um there's some I don't like compliments um I just want to hang out you know I just want to chill and I just want to have a good time and but sometimes I think the way that sometimes people's nerves shut them down or whatever but it's good for what I do it certainly is and that does make sense the the shyness coming out it as being talkative it's a way of I suppose it's like a deflect yes it is exactly it's like don't look at me you know not that I have shame or anything but I think it's probably trying to make people comfortable or I don't feel like it's like a chore it's not like I'm like oh god but it's just like it's just one of those it's just the way I am yeah what was the garment that first changed the way you felt about yourself what age were you when you noticed that connection between what you were wearing and what it gave you god that's a good question god it's a really hard one you know when you feel like there is a piece of clothing that somehow makes sense of who you feel you are i don't think there is just one because part of i think why i enjoy why it doesn't feel like a chore or like why i enjoy like putting on eyeliner or like doing actually I'll tell you what instead of it being a garment it's liquid eyeliner really yeah yeah and it was on tour with Slater Kinney their manager at the time was this really she was either the manager or their PR she was great and her name is Julie Butterfield she's so beautiful and all I had was like these cold pencils you know and I always really been into um like I wanted to I always wanted to have dark hair like from being a little girl I wanted to look like Mary Tyler Moore or Priscilla Presley yeah and my mom had this really beautiful dark like albany hair and I had like mousy brown hair and I still do um but I just wanted dark hair so bad I just um so I was like cat you know cat like the cat I was my jam because I just loved the way, you know, I loved the way Diana Ross looked.

7:09I loved the way, you know, like Barbra Streisand and like all these just beautiful twiggy. I mean, later, it's not like I knew, but I just loved early mid 60s eye makeup and just I loved bouffants. I loved them. I think it was an old soul because I was a kid in the 80s and I thought it was cool, but I'm still this way. I'm like, I like things to be put together, you know, and within reason, like a little fucked up, whatever, doesn't matter. But for myself, I like to be put together. Maybe it's the Southerner in me, you know. But when Julie Butterfield was watching me, it was the first tour I'd ever been on.

7:52You know, I'd never been out. You know, I'd taken one airplane in my life. I flew from Arkansas to Olympia, Washington in 1999, and this great, amazing band, I was just going to her. I had like one cold pencil, almost white, like literally white cover stick that my mom used to use too. And then I used it on my lips. And I was trying to do cat eye, but I didn't even have a sharpener. And I remember Julie came, I think it was New York. She came up to me and she had Lancome liquid eyeliner. liner and she had just bought one and she was like I want you to have this and because she was like I see the potential and it changed everything it changed everything because I'd always been a kid that liked hair and makeup I love that still like I'm just like you can be wearing whatever as long as your hair and makeup look good or are right the way you want them did your mom have a good like hair and makeup thing going on or did you just invent that for yourself or see it somewhere else my mom is very naturally beautiful very naturally beautiful I think almost everybody thinks their mom is the most beautiful woman in the world you know I think I think I hope so you know like I hope so and not because their mom deserves as much as that you know they deserve to have a good mom but um she you know still my mom's 68 and I just talked to her two days ago her hair is to here and like she just put the headband in she she taught me how to put on makeup like you know you you want you don't want like to look like you're wearing a mask you'd say you don't want a baseline yeah you know very good tip and it was a good tip it was really good and she was all about blending so i knew like what not to do but my mom is very like she does not wear makeup on a daily basis she hardly wears she never wears dresses she hates them she has three girls i'm one of seven kids she has three girls and she always says i don't know where these girls came from where i got these girls like not the girls but the how we are all All of us very much like to put a look together.

10:11We like, we love makeup. We love hair. We love like beauty products. Meanwhile, my mom is like, she's like the kind of person who's like, oh, whatever cold cream is the cheapest. And her skin is flawless. She's so beautiful. And her skin is just so beautiful. I just hope that I can be as, like she looks so young and she just, yes, she's incredible. And she has those beautiful 70s eyebrows that everybody's trying to get rid of now, you know. And she still has them, and it just opens her eyes up so much. So it's just truly beautiful. So she didn't, it wasn't her. I think, I would say for me it was not, the MTV was outlawed, or not outlawed, like everything was local, right?

10:59So I grew up in the Bible Belt. I grew up in Dry County. I grew up in the middle, you know, just a small town. And the local cable company wouldn't, you know, stopped offering MTV after a few, like, a couple years. Really? God. Yeah. And so there was this, like, little time capsule of, like, Culture Club, you know, Lacquer Virgin, Thriller, you know, Billie Jean, and Cyndi Lauper, like, these really striking. striking I mean weird Al you know like how like really striking graphic like images and that I think made me know that another world that I'm not seeing every day is possible and then but it kind of like because they didn't offer it anymore it's like it was a capsule and it stuck in my mind and then it just like constantly reinvented itself in a way but I always loved my mom even would she just be like my dad would be like where did you even see or hear this and I would just be watching tv in this little like something would happen I'd be like see somebody with a beehive and I'd be like that now that's a look you know god me and my mom like we couldn't buy pedal pushers so me and my mom just sewed them and made them like took a pair of pants already had and made a pattern and we just sewed them up and like I would wear that with a blue font like just an old big shirt I just wanted to look like Mary Tyler Moore wow and you had an advice column in the Guardian for for a while in the mid 2000s called what would Beth Ditto do I sure did I got paid for that and it was so awesome I lived in like a shared house it was kind of a passed down punk house like that's still around in Portland and like I was making because the the pound I think was like double the dollar and like I was like this is the best thing of all time Yeah.

12:54All I had to do was write something every two weeks. So I was just like, I'm rich. Because in many of the interviews, I mean, you speak so eloquently on behalf of other people. And, you know, we've talked about shyness and everything. And I, I've noticed in interviews, you quite quickly take over and you start asking the questions. I know. I was saying today, I was like, Bella, I'm going to make you lay on the couch. well yeah the day is young the night is young i was thinking well if anyone could somehow i'd find i'd switch places it would somehow be you you're so persuasive and you have this kind of very zen quality like everything i've heard you say in response to prejudice and criticism is remarkably philosophical and is there someone who somehow made this seem appealing to you because I I mean for me it was Desmond Tutu I found him to be radically honest and very funny and kind and you're very good with this kind of your response to like intensified you know homing in of people's negativity and I love the way you deal with it thank thank you I think growing up with no money, growing up fat, growing up gay, growing up being very afraid of God, more afraid of the devil.

14:24But both of them were pretty fucking terrifying. And being like really kind of self-aware, really kind of young, I think. Maybe not. But like, I feel like I was looking at the world like, what the fuck is going on around here, you know? and growing up in the south, growing up in the Bible Belt, growing up in a dry county, growing up in poverty, growing up in a judgmental place, growing up in a place that people will blame anything but the truth and the problem. That's just the problems, the real problems. I think that goes for anywhere, but all of those things I think just made me go. it's like you have a you have a choice somewhat you can't help the way you feel as much but it's a practice you know it's like I think I don't know just as a little kid being like that's crazy yeah you know like people going to hell that's crazy or like I remember like seeing crucifixes and it bringing people like peace and I was like um that's a dead body bleeding like I don't understand how that's supposed to bring me peace I'm five you know it was so weird I was like that's a corpse like how is how is that whatever but I don't know but I also grew up with a mom that was like who went through hell as a child a real trauma hell childhood real bastard out of carolina shit that book insane and for her to come out to be as joyful as she is hard-working as she is kind open and warm and like she wasn't perfect she wasn't taught love and compassion but she taught me empathy so young and like that was her thing she'd be like imagine what that's like just imagine i mean i get chills thinking of seeing my mom in my mind being that young but I was just you know I remember saying to my mom I was like oh because we're white trash I was about 10 or 11 and my mom stopped in her tracks and she turned on and she looked at me she's like you are but I'm not I was like damn it's like how you think about yourself and what you believe and you're like you know my mom's thing was they can't kill you and eat you they can only say no yeah and it's like i don't know it just made me think if you can't love respect and understand my mother and like it's just like then what good of friends are they what worth it it's like if you i don't know she just taught me really young it's just like who fucking cares because if you live that way it's hell yeah and it's just what she went through she would have gone through letting the system tear her down If she would have gone through what kids at her school were saying about her, if she would have listened to her own mother, her own father, what they did to her with the thought of her.

17:27If she would have, like, let all those things fuck with her mentality, like, as, you know, worse than they already did. I think she was like, take control of what you can control. Yeah. That's all you can do. Can you live with yourself and can you look at yourself at the end of the day? And do you love your friends? Do they make you happy? I don't know. God, she sounds like an amazing person, your mom. She's pretty funny and cute. She's great. God, what a great role model. I mean, you know, I've watched, read interviews with Desmond Tutu, but obviously I never met him or anything. You've never met Myra.

18:04Your mom sounds just amazing. She's very funny, but she's the same. She's very timid in front of people. Like people who know her well, worked with her, they'd be like, Myra? They'd be like, that doesn't sound like her. But if she came in here, I think she's very, very, does never wants to get in the way. It's just, it's funny. She's shy that way too, but she's also the center of attention. But she's got great value system. And that's, she sounds like she had, you know, she modeled that for you. And you've taken that on, which is wonderful quality. Yeah, I like my mom a lot. So you've appeared on the covers of many fashion magazines and been photographed by David Bailey and Tim Walker, among other high fashion photographers.

18:51And you said, Kate Moss taught me how to take good pictures of myself. So do you. Coming from her, that really changed the game. And she did it in what was just such a sisterly way. And do you have a pose that works for you? I mean, it depends. she taught me how to like make a shape you know that works for me yeah like when you're like doing like things in public or you want to show your outfit I mean she taught me that because we were taking pictures together it was like a carpety thing or something like that she's a great advisor isn't she she's always like oh just do this and do that and like you know it was the thing about i was thinking i was telling you this before that when i hadn't met people i hadn't been around very much like i did that thing just like anyone else that looks at people in magazines and is like fuck this fuck them and kate was one of those people that i was just like was it was like so unattainable that you don't even think about our real people or something the first time I met her it was in Los Angeles and like it opened my eyes to how it was internalized sexism and systematic sexism and how much I had not just her that like had discounted people women that I didn't even know in an industry I didn't understand and also So, which I think is really one of the best things about getting to see and meet all kinds of different people is that like you really see that like you don't know anything.

20:45I didn't know anything. I do love that punk rock attitude. It's just like, fuck that man. So it's really cool. But also it's just like it doesn't, I was wrong. And not just about Kate, but about a lot of things. And like the first time I met her, the first thing we said to each other was she said, I hate you. And I was like, I hate you, too, because in the funniest way, because I think she knows she knew more than anybody. But also, like. It's when you meet people who are kind to you and are funny and creative, like you realize that, like, that is the backbone of industries that are based on creativity.

21:28and personality you realize that actually like that's what makes people stand out that's what makes people icons it may not be what makes people money but it's what makes the image it's what makes the story it's like people who are like like her yeah and you know it's like when i mean it's like yeah and there's so many people i met like grace jones is one of those people yeah that you had that when I first met her, I was with Kate, actually. And I mean, I just want to be clear. It's not like me and Kate are talking on the phone all the time. But every time I see her, it's always a good time. Yeah, I know.

22:06And sisterly and sweet. But yeah, Grace Jones is the same way. I was like, she is so funny. But also, like, it's just nice to be open. And not just like that, but like with anything, and just be like, the only thing I know is I don't fucking know. Yeah, it's a good approach. And like you said, there are so many great people in the creative industry. And some people, you know a bit about them or you love their work and then you meet them and it's like you and Kate, I hate you, I hate you, instead of I love you, meaning the same thing. Yeah, because people really wanted to pit us against each other.

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23:53in 2012 you appeared in a Versace runway show with Donatella announcing Beth Ditto is in my house and I wondered what makes you feel so at home in high fashion you mean in my H &M dress on your couch um that's only one of your many guises is um i don't know i didn't know she said that that's very nice yeah she said beth deto is in my house it's really great i'm in here and then you performed live and it was it was wonderful i mean i was just watching on youtube and it was really cool and then you were the bride in the 2015 Mark Jacobs show and I wondered what it felt like being fitted by a designer who knows how to show your body at its most beautiful oh Mark Jacobs and that is Katie Grand Katie Grand made that happen a hundred percent I remember he I had gotten my nails done and I what he wanted with them and like I'd gotten acrylics which I don't really do anymore I don't even really paint my nails anymore um I kind of like I'm just kind of plain me too like even like my gross cuticles like um I do too but he clipped them off really yeah he was like he clipped them off I um I don't know he's really sweet he's funny and did he did you feel his hands on you because that's an incredible feeling someone shaping you literally shaping the cloth and like suddenly there you look in the mirror and someone's done this thing for you um no I don't remember I think I'm so out of my body most of the time that I'm not feeling things.

26:01I'm seeing them, like, in the mirror. And I think, for me, the biggest worry was, like, can I walk in those shoes? Like, can I walk fast enough with all those tall people, those tall models? I was hauling ass. I was walking so fast. I was like, oh. And trying not to laugh, too, because I was like, oh, my God, I must look hilarious because I was like booking it. You looked so amazing. Thank you. You really did. He did bleach the fuck out of my hair. It was fantastic with that silk dress and those jewels in your hair. It was really. That was a really amazing time. Yeah. I mean, like, the other thing, too, is that, like, the U.S.

26:46doesn't really embrace gossip that much. like it's very different there different experience which is also really cool yeah so to have like an american designer to walk in the show in new york you know that was very that was very cool yeah and it was different for that reason i mean mark jacobs is just the stand out really he's just such a he's just such a bringer of joy he's so brilliant and things are so creative and it's really exciting whenever he he puts a show on there's something yeah now he's wearing all those acrylics I mean I know I see his Instagram he has these long nails and And they're...

27:32I'm like, I'm really happy for him because there's no way. And heels. Yeah. Yeah. And when, because you also opened and closed the Gautier show in 2011. Well, he is so... I mean, he's another... So sweet. Extraordinary genius. And I wondered... He's so punk rock. Yeah, he is. He is. He is. I love his soul story. I love talking to him. I love... Yeah, he's so... He is great. Did he give you any advice about how he wanted you to walk? No. Nothing? No, he did not care at all, no. Which is fine, it was all right, it wasn't hard. He didn't care what I did. I mean, he was just like, all right. I think it was just a lot easier, you know, because you can just be like, you don't have to think about how fast you're walking.

28:23Yeah. But he made my wedding dress. I'm divorced now, but he made my wedding dress. that white baby like the baby doll yeah it was very very beautiful very sweet yeah like he's always been very good to me like really good to me i think you know i think sometimes people can be i mean there was times i mean i remember with katie katie grand the first shoot we did together It was for pop. And I think it was for Stephen Klein. And I was, I don't know if I was 30 yet. Maybe I'd just turned 30. I don't remember. So it was that long ago. I'm 44 now. So it was that long ago. And she was telling me, I don't know if it was then or the next shoot we did together about how she could get people to make things for me.

29:17They wouldn't do. They just flat out said no. You know? Really? Yeah. And so back then, I mean, it's not a surprise. like well you're such a good wearer of clothes i mean you've got so much attitude and style it's like that's that that's our job to make you clothes you know yeah things were things i could not feel different like i am well i know you said you hate to take a compliment and i love to pay a compliment so it's going to be a conflict here but i just don't know if i agree you know i don't i don't know i don't really look at pictures of myself i don't but katie But I do love getting dressed.

29:55Well, Katie Grant has put you on the cover of all her magazines, hasn't she? I think so. You were the first cover of Love, weren't you? Yeah. That was an amazing picture. Yeah, that was wild. That was with Martin Marcus. That was crazy. Yeah. Yeah. You're a great cover girl. Thank you. Brilliant. Thank you. So young, you know. I didn't know that that was you know there's a second naked shoot or the same second naked cover and the thing is is like we didn't do a lot of naked shots I don't think we did and she that's what she chose which is great I think it's great I mean yeah it's just it's interesting when And I was like looking at your naked pictures and, you know, I sat for my dad naked twice.

30:51Yeah. And you seem to be able to express a lot of joy with your body with or without clothes. And I wondered what makes you self-conscious. Compliments. But I also want to give a shout out to Sue Tilly. see there's a picture of her over there i don't know i think i saw it because i found i actually felt completely at ease when i was naked i mean obviously it depends on the circumstances but i felt like i was doing a job and it necessitated not having any clothes for this painting so it was fine yet the idea of being naked fills me with kind of dread i don't you know in other context or usually it does i think also nudity when it's not sexualized is way more comfortable because often especially with female bodies we are immediately sexualized so people have a hard time like separating the two and you're just like no it's just a fucking body you know it's just skin it's just bones it's it's the it's a blob it's the same you know it's like that is just yours is shaped different than mine and they people have different parts and they have different our organs are in different places and some of us have ones and others don't you know it's like it's funny but i think that's the thing it's just like i mean you i remember when And, you know, I think the enemy came out.

32:37I was in my 20s. And their idea was to do it naked. And, like, I was like, okay. But, you know, I had a little anxiety about it because I was like, oh, my God, did I do that? Like, is it going to be weird? Like, people are going to be weird about it? And then I just was like, I don't care. I just don't care. It's like, who cares? like what it's like it's kind of the best part of just coming from a punk rock and like coming into a place of like radical feminism or like you know it's like or activism or whatever you know whatever word it is i can't find the right word but like i just it's like i you're not asking for anybody to accept you if like if you wait around for that it's you're not going to do much yeah i I think that's a prison in itself.

33:30Yeah. So it's like, who cares? And that's the point. It's like, at the end of the day, you know, in 300 years, nobody's going to fucking remember. Like, it's like, why? Or like, and I'm going to look back and be like, whew, good thing I didn't do that naked shoot. No. In fact, the opposite. It's a great picture and it's so full of charm and it's really fun. And it's, you know. It's also just like, that's what most people look like under their clothes. It's like, I mean, not, you know, but like, there aren't that many bodies that fit this idea of what a cover should be. I mean, I know that's cliche.

34:14That's pretty, that's obvious. But it's like, why? I always had this mentality. I did not understand if there were more of us, then why do we let this small group of people dictate what we like or what we do or what we say? They have, there's like, I never understood that. Even in high school, I remember, like, when it was the yearbook, you know, Americans, like, I was on yearbook staff. And I remember being like, this year, it's not going to be the jocks and the popular kids. It's going to be my weird friend. We're going to get people in there to vote for best all around, most school spirit, most talented, most athletic.

34:57It's like, yeah, this year, that's not happening. I was just like, I didn't understand why do the popular kids get all these accolades and attention when no one really likes or knows them. you know it's like what if we actually voted for like hey we like I mean it's just high school to your book and it's not that simple I know but back then I was just like I don't get it I don't get it you seem to have been remarkably kind of I don't know like had this very good instinct like the age of five you were thinking why is everyone going along with you know hell and damnation and And racism too. Yeah.

35:39And seeing my mom be treated like shit, but it was okay. It was cool if a dad left or a dude left, but if my mom went out for the weekend. I was just like, fuck off. It genuinely did not make sense. It didn't make sense to me. I was like, how does this make sense? I don't get it. In a very simple way, I know that now it's not that. like not things are like there's more depth and there's like stories and there's reasons and there's systems and there's history and there's you know human beings and but then but back then it's just like I did not understand it I still don't understand that's good it's good you don't hello and talking of clothes if you fancy someone and you don't like what they're wearing does it kill your attraction no uh no no um it can bum me out a little bit but like it's usually because I'm like you can do like it's difficult because like I agree because some people don't enjoy it as much as I do I actually I like like if I thought that like doing anything with style or fashion or clothes or makeup and dress like getting stuff and yeah so sometimes you're not in the mood to do your makeup at midnight to play a deck to play a show at two eight you know what i mean but like if i didn't enjoy it i think it would be a hard it would be a hard existence you know i think it would be difficult but i actually like it and not everybody does so there's that but yes like it's i think when there's an effort put into something and the effort that it doesn't really, maybe doesn't really succeed.

37:30I think I'm wondering sometimes, like, I'm like, it's an interesting question is, do they, are they seeing what I'm seeing? Yeah, good point. And is what I'm seeing better? Like, it's just a different, or like, you know, I mean, let's be honest. We have, I mean, just the other day I was talking to my friend Andrew, who'd like he's my makeup artist he didn't do my makeup today so Andrew Gallimore yeah Andrew Gallimore Bella yeah I love Andrew Gallimore I too I saw him not that long ago he did my makeup and god it was great you did yeah he was wonderful carry on I introduced I love it well he's one of my very very best friends very best friends and but we're talking about like we've entered our all black chic phase because we're just like when we were younger I was just like we dressed like clowns and like I still love that very much but now I'm just like I'm not gonna pack a suitcase full of colorful clothes that I have to coordinate now I don't have the patience I'm just like oh my god throw about 50 black dresses in there four pair of tots and three pair of shoes I don't care I just don't want to, it doesn't stain.

38:48Do you have to worry about it? You've said, I don't like writing words. I just don't find it enjoyable. It feels really awful because it's so personal. But you're really, really good at this. You mean like lyrics? Yeah. Words, a song. Oh, I don't like it at all. How do you go through the resistance? Because the things you write are amazing. and they're very connecting and you know listening to your songs they really resonate and the music is so fantastic and it's not often that is you know you get that whole combination and so how do you go from like oh I don't want to do this to doing it for years I wouldn't even give I wouldn't I wouldn't like I wouldn't write words though it was very Ramone's second verse same as the first I did not put any like any effort into it I just it was like the most painful like painful like emotional not like I don't want people to know my insides I can't explain it I hate it.

40:05I still hate it. Also, there's this thing, and I think that's probably part of being like coming up in a punk scene young. Not like I was, you know, but like gossip exists solely because we moved to Olympia, Washington, because we were coming in behind the Riot Grrrl movement and like swooping in, you know. Yeah. So I was 18. So like, that's my first band experience I had was in a feminist punk scene, queer punk scene. The touring experience was that. So I think that that comes with like, you don't, there is no goal to make money. There's no goal to be successful. There's no goal to be famous.

40:49There's no goal. Like, eventually you do come to a point where you're like, I just want to do this for a living. But for me, like, I just, it just wasn't something you did. you know I don't really feel like a songwriter I love writing melodies I like writing music but I don't I don't like it they're writing the words I don't like it but you do write them anyway yeah if whatever comes out on top is done it's done we're not gonna think that's the other thing too is that like you just shouldn't think about things too much that's good about the punk scene is like you you're not supposed to like I my understanding of it which is not true is that you're not supposed to try you know it's but do you think that's because i was around that was my interpretation it was yeah yeah because i was around and i mean i caught the end of the very end of the sex pistols and i was around at that time and there was it was quite confusing this idea that you weren't supposed to care because everybody cares i think that but it's and it's it played havoc with my like oh why do i care so much yet no one's supposed to care i don't know what to do with this kind of excess that's the thing no that is such a good point about that mentality it's because no one was going to admit that they cared you know the image that was created was you know the image of not caring was curated yeah you know yeah maybe you must would like these you know these people had people putting it looks together for them i guess from what i understand and i could be wrong but yeah and that was like 70s punk too so like also like grunge for me was like formed so much of who i was yeah but it was like this idea like the purest form of the pure right you know and still that's in my head like don't put it on like I and but I cringe I don't I'm not good at hiding how I feel or pretending not good at it which is great I mean I want to be though don't you think life is probably yeah I know it's I I think I think that's this kind of phase and now I've decided I'm not I'm gonna if I care about something that's I'll care and that means something it's like I remember saying someone saying to me like if you feel weird about something it means it's weird so now I think if I have strong feelings then there's something to explore rather than something to sort of suppress Yeah.

43:33And I think that's, you know, that that kind of energetic force comes across in your music, your performance, your whole. Thank you. You know, everything about you. And it's it's really a kind of sort of a great source for everybody else who is inspired by you. And also you worked on, am I right? You've worked on your last two albums with the producer Rick Rubin, who's a bit of a legend. He looks like a legend too with that amazing beard. I'm surprised you've not met him before. I've never met him. I'm fascinated by him. And how did you know that he would bring out the best in you or what you wanted to come out?

44:19the first time we i was again i was in my 20s and it's so wild because like we've worked on two three i think three records together i think but and spent a lot of time in studios together you know um how did i know i didn't at first but when we i remember i just remember being like is this really happening like and also that thing where like I was like oh my god you know I'm gonna have to like take this seriously I'm gonna have to like write a poem and put it in a you know it's like what am I gonna do like and you know back then I didn't realize that it was my process you know that like I had to take time I need things to come up naturally you know um I thought that I It was a burden because I'd worked with people before that were like, where's your lyric sheet?