Fashion Neurosis with John Cooper Clarke

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1:11Hi, come in.

1:17Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, John Cooper Clark. Thank you for inviting me, Bella Freud. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these clothes? I'm wearing my everyday clothes, which are not a million miles away from my stage wear. I don't really have to do. In fact, I've got a wardrobe full of clothes that are more or less the same. So I get dressed once and once only per day. But I do that very carefully. I would describe my style of dress as careful. So what I've got on today is a pale pink Brooks Brothers button-down shirt, Oxford, a structureless jacket with a Peter Pan collar and a pair of black jeans.

2:19and a pair of gunmetal grey Chelsea boots. The hat's good. Oh, the hat, yeah. The hat was a present from my daughter, Stella, made by a woman called Irina Dretva. So, yeah, this particular model of chapeau was designed apparently by Nikki Sixx of Motley Crue notoriety. Nice. It's an excellent hat. It's a good hat, yeah. I occasionally have to take it off just to establish that I haven't fallen victim to male pattern baldness. No, you have the most... People always assume that I do anyway. If somebody suddenly starts, you know, being a hat shop habitué. You had the most excellent hair. Do you take care of it yourself?

3:15I've got terrible hair. I've never liked it, but, you know, at least I've got hair to hate. And do you keep it dark or do you go to someone who... Well, I've started to let my natural chestnut show through. I used to go for the blue-black, you know, Superman shade. To match your suits. Favoured by most people in the business. And what was the first piece of clothing that made you feel different, as though clothes had power? Oh, that would have been my first Italian-style suit, which I got for my Uncle Dennis' wedding. There was only one kind of suit that was acceptable in around 1960, 61. They called them Italian suits.

4:12It was a sort of boxy jacket with no vents, three-button coat, tapered trousers, flat front tapered trousers. So the sort of Ivy League, or what they would have called in America a continental suit. Wow. Kind of Mediterranean style, you know, three button narrow trousers and that was with a high break oh yes you know high three button with a high break so yeah that was uh that was that was great only only an article of clothing that that I chose myself I think that was the first time it happened but you know the horrors of having to wear pullovers that your auntie may, you know, bought you and things like that.

5:09Awful. I've never been really much of a pullover guy. You mentioned that when you did buy them that you went into the women's department. That's right, yeah. There was a firm called E-Tam. Oh, yeah, I remember that. I remember them. They used to sell these what they call skinny rib sweaters. Yeah, they were kind of very tubular. and well the clue is in the title with a vertical sort of emphasis I think all the most adventurous dressers and the mothers that dress their kids adventurously cross over into the different boys and girls departments my good friend who's married to Nick Cave she would say Belle you just need to go to the girls section of H &M and they have much better clothes than in the boys you know just the attention to detail so it makes a lot of sense that you had a kind of instinct to look there for what suited you Yeah that's right and Marks and Spencer's women's department did great sweaters you know the colour palette was different to what was available to guys.

6:33All you could really get was sort of earth tones in the men's department. But, you know, for your Kingfisher blues and, you know, what's that one? Taupe. Oh, gosh. You had to go to the chicks department for that. but the last time I went to a hairdresser's I went to a chick's hairdresser well actually it was unisex it was in the 70s when the unisex hairdresser's was introduced to the high street because my hair's a bit kinky I used to go for that kind of Julie Driscoll haircut you know kind of suede head girl you know so I kind of had it that suede head girl haircut with kind of feathered bits at the sides and sort of ratty, a bit ratty at the back, but layered, you know, layered.

7:34Yeah, yeah. God, that's such a good idea. When it comes to the haircut department, yeah. They're much more brutal in the men's department, really, I suppose, aren't they? And you described your dad as looking a bit like a detective and I wondered what his style was like Oh yeah, yeah. He had a kind of iron grey sort of buzz cut. Wow. You know, short. And a count at a tailor's. So he had his clothes made. So, it was quite a, again, you know, he always had a coat on. You know, he wasn't really the pullover type either. so but you know the default picture of my dad out and about would be in a three quarter mackin' sosh and one of his suits underneath it and a pair of pebble green brogues Wow quite specific yeah yeah specific you're a careful dresser again you don't like myself really yeah but he did look quite sort of you know he could have passed for a criminal or a detective a successful criminal or a high ranking detective or a hard boiled private eye like Mickey Spilline have you ever seen a picture of Mickey Spilline I don't think so no well he always featured photographs of himself on the back of his pulp novels featuring Mike Hammer.

9:23And it was obvious that he wanted to be conflated with the hero of his books. So he would be wearing a raincoat, iron-grey buzz-cut, you know, Irish-American tough guy look. Such a good idea. That's sort of what my dad sort of went for, I guess. Yeah, yeah. All his pals were spiffy dresses, actually, as well. And I've loved reading your memoir, I Want to Be Yours, and you talk about your love of comics as a child. Comics. And Rupert the Bear and Mad Magazine as well. And I got quite a lot of influence from clothes, from comics. and even you talked about woman and woman's own. Yeah. So good. Well, if you put anything, any printed matter in front of me, I would have to read it.

10:22And that went, you know, my mum used to have it delivered, a woman magazine and woman's own. And did you look at the, because you talked about Mad magazine. Oh, Mad magazine, yeah. I remember looking at that and thinking, I want to look like that. that is a great way to look. What, Alfred E. Newman? Yes, yes. If I ever had a tattoo, God for offence, it would be him. In fact, I think that's the fly page of my book, I think it features What Me Worry. Oh, so good. The slogan, the catchphrase of Alfred E. Newman. But yeah, what a ridiculous face. amazing fantastic yeah I don't really remember Jerry Lewis comics as well we used to get they were great I was a big fan of theirs Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis but Jerry had his own comic no really I didn't know that he's a big influence I really wanted those kind of clothes I was a big fan of theirs I went to see all their movies and you know I used to wonder what you know those clothes that Jerry would wear Levi jeans and pinned up gingham button down shirt fantastic and that great haircut he had I lived with a monkey once and I used to think that's the best haircut you can get that sort of Jerry Lewis chimpanzee cut and were you Were your friends as obsessed with clothes as you, or did you have a much more extreme interest in style and stuff?

12:17Yeah, we were all quite fussy dressed, you know, particular. Yeah, yeah. Did you ever come across Hilaire Bellock's Cautionary Tales, I wondered? I think I must have done, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because your love of rhyme and that was a big influence on me. My dad gave me the cautionary tales for my ninth birthday and I learnt them and he knew them off by heart as well. And then I once wrote a poem to my sister as a sort of, in place of a letter in the style of Hilaire Balak. He managed to include everything kind of, you know, that you couldn't say in a normal way. It was just so funny and I wondered.

13:10Well, maybe I haven't read this. A great deal of the poetical canon has been tragically ignored. I tell you, it was a big influence on me. Edgar Allan Poe and John Betjeman Fantastic I loved him All the stuff we did at school, I had a sort of Rudyard Kipling Fantastic My father used to like Rudyard Kipling and John Betjeman I remember there was a line in was it in one of his poems Old and ill and terrified and tight. It was just the brilliant description of a breakdown in a relationship. And that was the last two lines. Another line that was said, Judy, Judy, Judy, girl, and have you got the gate?

14:11And it was filled with sort of such menace and expectation. But my dad used to remember tons of he could recite the whole of the the Mary Gloucester and the Kipling's the Mary Gloucester and then he loved the ancient Mariner oh that's great yeah that's fabulous yeah in every sense of the word yes I love that yeah I'll tell you what I've always avoided Shakespeare yeah it's just a hole that many gifted people just get stuck in isn't it you know I don't know what I've got against I mean Henry the Fifth with Lawrence Olivia you know the movie great fabulous it seems very difficult to maintain any individuality within it it's so powerful that it just makes people disappear slightly.

15:16That's exactly what it does, yeah. I don't read much poetry anyway, to be honest. I like Pam. Pam's great. Pam is. Yeah, fabulous. She's a really good broadcaster as well. Those shows she did on the Cotswolds. I didn't think I was at all interested in the Cotswolds until she did those TV shows. Fantastic. I watch all of them, do you? Michael Portillo's Railway Journey. It's fantastic. I've never... There's a guy that reinvented himself. I know. He's terrific in that show. He avoids every cliche. You know, he goes places and he never, you know, you know what I mean? He's like Jonathan Mead in that, but he's another one.

16:01There's no such thing as a boring place. He's very fixatory. So comics, yes, I read a lot of comics and one question has remained with me must be since the first comic I ever, the first action comic anyway that I ever read. When somebody gets shot or falls off a moving vehicle or out of a moving vehicle or off the edge of a cliff or something, some emergency, and they go, argh! You know, with a GH at the end and multiple exclamation marks. You know, about 17 A's followed by G-H and several exclamation marks. Are you meant to sound the G and the H? Or is that the way you spell it? Is it in the dictionary?

17:02The G-H is silent, like, you know, tough or through. or do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'd never questioned the idea because... It's not a word. It's a semi-onomatopoeic outburst as a reaction to a catastrophe in the world of comic books. So why bother with the GH if you're not meant to sound them? So ever since then, Even if I have any minor injuries that elicit, ah, I always put the GH on the end, even now. I'm going to do that now. I think it's a great idea. Because the GH, when it's drawn, and I can visualise it so well, it's almost like it's about to say ghastly or something. Yeah, that's the beginning of another thing that gets cut short when it hits the ground or dies.

18:06Arg, that. Arg. I'll have to draw it. I'll have to practice. I personally sound the GH. I'm going to copy you. I like it. But yeah, comics, very important. There was a series of comics, American publication. Most of them were, the ones I read anyway, the Jerry Lewis comics. Weird planets, creepy worlds, tales of the unknown, featuring such great artists, comic book artists. as Steve Ditko. I don't know. Who for a while, I think, did Spider-Man. Oh, really? But then he was just a staffer at Creepy Worlds. Creepy Worlds. And he'd obviously seen City of the Cane and never forgot. Loads of extreme angles, unorthodox angles and close-ups of people sweating.

19:06You know, half a face, half a sweaty face. So genius. And somebody entering the room behind their back, visible to you over his shoulder. Real paranoid urban comic book art. He was the governor, actually, Steve Ditko. But most importantly, my literary education began with Classics Illustrated. They were all the world's classics. What are you, comic book form? Classics Illustrated, Moby Dick. Oh, right. Macbeth, Crime and Punishment. They went all over the world. The Red Badge of Courage by Stephen Crane. So they did a comic of crime and punishment? Yeah, yeah. What a good idea. Yeah, yeah, I was acquainted with the works of Dostoevsky at a very early age, thanks to Classics Illustrated.

20:09Nobody ever had the full set. What, they were always being shared? Yeah, yeah, it showed you what was available on the back cover. It also, you know, featured little bits at the end of the story about the author. a potted biography of the author, which was always Jack London. That was one of them, Seawolf by Jack London. White Fang. Oh, White Fang. Call of the Wild. That was... The story of Wild Bill Hickok was one of my favorites. I was very interested. Cowboy comics were real big. Also recently there are several Rediscovered photographs Of Billy the Kid You know think of Billy the Kid There's one picture of him with a rifle And a gun just stuffed down the front of his britches But he was far more dandyish than that They've discovered these two new pictures One of him playing cards with two of his pals And another one at a wedding with a croquet mallet.

21:22No. Enjoying a game of croquet with his... And he hung out with Mexicans and dressed in the Spanish fashion a lot of the time. So that main picture that everybody thinks of when they think of Billy the Kid is not actually representative of how he liked to look. Yeah, he was really modern-looking. I must look at those You wouldn't look twice at him today Really nicely tailored Pair of trousers Not too tight Nick would have approved We ought to say We should mention that I'm breaking All of Nick's sartorial rules Really With the tight fitting clothes And the ankle boots I'm breaking all of his tutorial rules and yet funnily enough our looks are quite close to each other I know I think he had when we're out and about I think he had a different shape in mind when he was crossing off that look for all eternity not your skinny form that somehow makes everything look perfect I've got a suit, I've got suits Yeah, because you Oh yeah, yeah What's a good suit to you?

22:53I've noticed you like a narrow sleeve and you like to show some cuff Yeah, yeah, yeah, tight arm holds Yeah A slight flare on the sleeve Ah, interesting Natural shoulder High-waisted, trousers, a bit wider than the jeans I wear actually On my last suit, it's got a four-button fastening, four-button, four-cent event, you know, Ivy League-ish. Four buttons, that's quite a high break. It is a very high break, yeah. But I don't wear ties anymore. I kind of phased them out by wearing this sort of style of a jacket with the Peter Pan collar. I like a tie. So that's a bothersome requirement. I'm kind of left in the past.

23:47I'm not very good with colours. I am officially red and green colourblind like a lot of guys. Oh, really? Yeah, it's a guy's thing. Yeah, Paul Simonon has that too. Yeah, and he's a painter. Yeah, yeah. I love his work. Yeah, it's me too. Have you seen those breakfasts that he did? I've seen landscapes. He did a series of paintings of British breakfasts. with a gingham tablecloth. And every one of them's got a copy of the Daily Mirror with a different headline. Oh, brilliant. It's a great series of paintings that he did. It's a very gifted painter. Yeah. If you're feeling low, are there certain clothes that you like to wear?

24:35I'm a person. I like to think I've got a cheerful disposition. So I don't think... No, no, like I say, all of my clothes are... They're all the same. My pyjamas.

24:55I can't wait to get into my pyjamas. Straight after tea. Really? Straight after tea, baby. And what are they like, your pyjamas? Well, to be honest, they will comfortably pass as athleisure wear. They're kind of a bit tracksuity, but obviously of a thinner material. But before today, I mentioned this somewhere else recently, I am able to cycle to the news agents in them without drawing any attention. You know, I just look like I'm out and about in a track. Yeah. But they're actually my pyjamas, yeah. I would have imagined you in more spivy pyjamas for some reason. What kind of pyjamas would you imagine me in?

25:49I would imagine you in something with a very cool stripe and a piping. Oh, what were you, the candy stripe? So a flannelette type. Some, yeah. Traditional English pyjamas. Yeah, so that you would remain a... Yeah, I've worn them. I've worn them. They were the only option when I was a kid. But the best pyjamas I ever had, actually, were my uncle Dennis, who was about the same height as me at the time, when he was de-mobbed from the RAF National Service. He gave me two pairs of pale blue tropical weight pyjamas, which I thought was dead sophisticated. So anything other than the candy-striped flannelette variety.

26:39They were great. They had darker blue piping around the edges and a kind of Lido collar, a compulsory open-neck collar. Enter the nightcrabat. Oh, God. The nightcrabat. That sounds like a dream, actually. You're nothing. If you haven't got one of them, you're nothing. but you know it was begging for a night cravat a night cravat but they were great because my uncle had been stationed in Cyprus during the the unpleasantness out there so he brought back these I inherited those pajamas and a pair of a pair of aviator steel frame sunglasses with Zeiss lenses Oh my God. A little top-dollar item. Didn't you share a room with him?

27:36Yeah, he had to move into our house for a while before he got married or something. I don't know. Yeah, we shared a room with him, yeah. God. But he sounded like a really stylish man. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He was always out on dates with girls. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start? Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin? Or what that clunking sound from your dryer is? With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app.

28:19Download today. I'm really pleased that the Jane Goodall collection with Brilliant Earth connects to my vision of how we can live in harmony with nature. Every choice we make ripples outward and you can choose what sort of impact you make. I know that the things I've worked for all my life will carry on. Discover the Jane Goodall Collection, exclusively at Brilliant Earth. And you were a heroin addict for a while and heroin is a famous suppressant and I wondered what you were trying to suppress.

29:03That's a good question. Well, what can you say about it? The trouble with talking about it at all is that one doesn't want to give the impression that it's an easy club to leave. It's very difficult for me and there were many failed attempts before the one that was successful. But where there's life, there's always hope. And, you know, I think if you're talking about heroin addiction, you know, I don't think it makes you any kind of expert. And I don't think there's an addictive personality. I think anybody that tried it would go ape shit crazy for it. You know, I think it's a bit of a myth about the addictive personality.

29:51But, you know, horses for courses. I'm not here to lock on with the 12-set program. It has worked for so many people that I can't help but recommend it if anybody's serious about putting down the habit. It is, you know, make it easy on yourself, you know, get an NA and do all of that. I didn't do it that easy, an easy way like that. But, you know, I think, you know, if you go on, there are two ways you're going to come up if you're dealing with Harry Potter you're either going to look like a victim or a cunt I don't I don't I don't fancy either route so therefore I kind of avoid talking about it and I've got to say I never think about it anymore I literally never think about it anymore but you know until I'm called upon to do so.

30:49I really am not a wise guy about it, but I have seen it. I have seen NA and the 12-step program work for so many people. Yeah. You know, people who I thought were a lost cause. So I can't recommend it enough, really. Yeah, it is amazing. Like I say, you know, victim or c**t, you choose. Rather not. Somewhere between. I don't even want to be somewhere in between. So that's why I don't like talking about it because they're the only two ways you're ever going to come across. Well, you certainly don't come across either of those or anything in between. What's so interesting listening to you talk about it while I've been reading your book is that you got out of it because it's such a pacifier.

31:43I got out of it all right. Yeah. Oops. And then some. Freudian slip. I was no stranger to morphine anyway because of my tuberculosis. My childhood, which required the use of cough suppressants, you know, featuring morphine. Amazing. So it was a kind of recognisable, you know, kind of state for me. Do you think your body had acquired a little memory? I think I was morphine deficient and that's how come I fell foul of the substance. I don't want to get flip about it, you know, far from it, but it was a long time ago and thank God, thank God, thank God Almighty, my life is different now. Because that's when your friendship with Nico revolved around.

32:50Yeah, she didn't help my recovery very well, moving in with me, actually. You know, she just got back from Genoa. Gosh, what was she doing there? Doing some shows there. But we stayed in most of the time. You know, we always lived a fairly quiet life. And she was always very much her own company, Nico. She had a career before she was ever in the Velvet Underground. I remember her being on Ready, Steady, Go singing. She was on the immediate label, Andrew Lou Goldham's record label, Immediate, which had a really good roster of acts. And Nico, who came across as a kind of winsome European folk singing beatnik chick.

33:41and she did that song didn't she I'm not saying the other lovely number she did I'll keep it with mine written by Bob Dylan for her wow gosh great song enigmatic because you had one on your desert island discs did I have that on you had one of them yeah that would have been I wasn't familiar yeah it was amazing yeah terrific song yeah she's a big pin-up in the fashion world, Nico. Oh, beautiful woman. So beautiful. The people she knew was unbelievable, you know, Federico Fellini. Amazing. Chet Baker. You know, but she wouldn't make a big deal out of it. Yeah. But she knew all these big hitters on the European sort of oats, Bohemia, you know.

34:32Federico Fellini, it's up there. Yeah. So all the glamorous people really that I ever met was, you know, because of her. And she was living in Manchester? Yeah, yeah, she lived in Sedgley Park, where I had been living, actually, just around the corner from where I used to live. You must have looked amazing together, the blonde and the dark-haired. Well, she wasn't blonde when I knew her, Nika. No, no, she had dark-brown hair. Yeah, what a beauty. She was officially one of the ten most beautiful women in the world back in the days of Brigitte Bardot and the rest. She was in the top ten. Such a funny idea, isn't it?

35:23Looks like the top ten most beautiful women in the world. And Linda Sterling. I only started wearing my glasses when I finally saw a picture of Roger Vadim. oh right yeah yeah I figured this guy must be the handsomest guy in the world you know knocking around with these you know Brigitte Catherine and all these fabulous chicks that he was dealing with you know I think he was the most handsome guy in the world but he was the kind of bespectacled skinny guy so that's when I started wearing my glasses at that point I thought wow so that's what she goes for such a good idea Yeah, so alluring. Also, I remember your poems and Linton Quasey Johnson when I was a teenager, and it was such a big thing for me, you and him, because there was so much anarchy, kind of the feeling, not there necessarily was, but this kind of nihilism and this defiance.

36:29But then you and Linton Quasey Johnson were somehow giving us language and I wondered how did your work together come about? I met Linton actually in the company of John Lydon. Oh right. A show at Bellevue Gardens, it doesn't exist anymore. It was the Coney Island of the north in Manchester. They had all kinds of things going on there. Stock car racing, speedway, boxing events, massive fairground, a zoo. circus several function rooms massive area and we were doing a show at the what what used to be the circus rig and it was a public image limited linton and myself and that's when i first ran into linton and uh you know our respective management you know that really we were the only kind of poets around at that point that you could say it was specific to that period yeah you know uh so it was a no-brainer that we should do a double header touring the uk tour of the uk and it was very successful you know full houses all the way yeah i can very successful we were We were great because we were very different in our approaches.

38:00So there was a great deal of light and shade. Yeah. It was a good show. It was a great show. Yeah, you seemed good together, I must say. Yeah, we had. It was really strong. I wish it could happen again. He's playing with you in Manchester, is that right? Yeah, he's making an appearance at the Co-op Live show on the 29th of March. Fantastic. Yeah, it's going to be great. I liked how much Johnny Rotten hated hippies. And I remember seeing him on TV saying he hated them because they were complacent. And I read that you, in Manchester, no one trusted a hippie. Oh, yeah, without a doubt. Yeah, they've had it their way for too long.