Fashion Neurosis with Juergen Teller

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1:10Hi, come in.

1:18Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Jürgen Teller. Thanks for having me. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these clothes? you know it's very important for me to be comfortable because I kind of always in my mind I could always be working or I'm always working and and with what I'm doing is I have to be comfortable whether it's kneeling down or crutching down or whatever whatever I have I just want to be comfortable in what I'm what I'm wearing and I pretty much wear the same thing in a slightly different arrangement. I have a couple of those jumpers, same kind of jeans, same kind of trainers, and it just varies a bit.

2:04I like the pink. It looks really good on you. Thank you. Do you see? That's what I thought. You're one of the most famous photographers in the world, and especially for your work in fashion and your campaigns for Marc Jacobs and Vivian Westwood, And I used to wait for those Marc Jacobs campaigns, almost like a new episode of a series. It was always so exciting. And I wondered what drew you to fashion. Possible the reason why you kind of like them and why you were looking forward to seeing them as a series, as you say, is ultimately I'm interested in human beings, in people and what they do. and it's a great vehicle for me to express what I'm thinking and what is fashion for me.

3:00It's like a fantasy. It's like something you should enjoy wearing or a necessity when it's cold and not be too serious about it. And I had fun with it. And I started to be getting involved in fashion really at the beginning. I started doing record covers and that is really where a lot of fashion comes into where actually fashion gets completely influenced by the by the music by the musicians and I started record doing record covers and I kind of asked myself what is this is this a rapportage is this a portrait is this a fashion photograph it's it's it's kind of everything or can be whatever you wanted to be and and uh but it really stems out of uh i'm not so interested in fashion per se but but it's really uh the people who wear clothes that's what i'm interested in yeah in the end it's people who are interesting they're the people that make clothes come to life but you have something that's so kind of endearing as well about the way you bring those people into the, you know, they're not just models, they are kind of the feeling that you want when you become obsessed with clothes, I suppose.

4:25That's what I enjoy about your fashion portraiture. And when you were a child, did you have any obsessions with any particular clothes? No, not really, no. I always had something that I fixated on because it seemed to bring order or some sort of fantasy of order into my life. And I wondered whether you had any, how, whether there was any attachment that started when you were a very young person. I do remember having these, I can't remember how old I was. I kind of wanted to have this foxtail on my jeans sort of thing. That were like the bad boys who were wearing those. The kind of like complete stupid fashion accessory.

5:21But it meant like you were kind of like the moped driver, the cigarette smoker and the kind of cool guy. That's the only fashion equipment I think I've ever thought of. That's really good. How old were you when you had that? I think I was still under the control of my parents and they were obviously horrified. What the fuck am I doing with this thing? And I don't know, like 11, 12, 13, something like that. It seems very high fashion, weirdly, which is your milieu. Of course, it was real fur at the time. and you described picking up a camera when you were 18 and and it feeling as though you could see for the first time and and I wondered how did you see things differently from when you look through the lens it helped me to concentrate and focus looking through this square thing behind the camera you know the the viewfinder it it really helped me to shape and focus of of something and when you are young you kind of like eat drink uh smell things listen to music but everything is sort of so you're so young and so undeveloped kind of thing uh like like the ears and the eyes what you see.

6:53You're not trained or you're so naive and so young. But looking through the square thing, it just suddenly helped me to focus and I immediately knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a photographer and I wanted to explore things. And it gave me a really excellent adventure in life. Yeah, it's such an evocative description because when I read that bit, where you'd said that, I could feel like all the world, like all the shards coming together as if towards a magnet and your idea of how crystal clear everything suddenly became. I suppose it's quite rare that anyone has those moments and it's very interesting to hear about how succinct that was and how quickly that started, you know, set you on your journey.

7:50you seem like quite an extrovert person and you also grew up with an alcoholic father and there's quite I always think there's a lot of shame associated with alcoholism not to do with the drinking but really to do with the feelings that are being suppressed by alcohol and um I wondered if you had an introvert side of yourself that you're protecting with your extrovert? I am actually not so extrovert, I believe. I'm actually quite a shy person. But what needs to be done and what needs to be said needs to be done. You know, and I'm quite strong about it. And I have quite a strong backbone. And if my moral compass is correct, I consequently do this.

8:47That's what I would say, yeah. Oddly enough, maybe sometimes it's your clothes that make you seem like an extrovert because when I've met you, you have always been quite shy and you give a good impression of being, you know. Because you associate it probably together with my work. Yeah, absolutely. There's an unselfconsciousness and a kind of urgency about your work and how you do things and how you cut to the chase. I think if you're sort of confident, it's with everything really, if you're confident within yourself, you know, you can do whatever you want in a way. Yeah, I agree. you've talked a lot about your love of football and one of my first guests on fashion neurosis was eric kantona and uh i just had this thing that i had to he had to be here and uh he's my favorite player i mean i'm not that interested in football itself but i am interested in certain players because they make it mean so much more and I wondered if you had a favorite player yeah of course of course of course that would be without even thinking too much it would be Ronaldinho was a Brazilian footballer and he was like absolutely magic because also it's it's it's you could see the not just the the skill of it but the pure joy of of playing and and and the tricks he did and the things we did and you could also see the kind of like how fantastic it is and and how life sort of changes and after a couple of years of being just absolutely taking the world by storm and then also getting involved like anybody else would be when you're rich and famous and fabulous getting involved into the possibly drinking and women and everything else what comes within the world and it's sort of fabulous that it's not only that it doesn't only exist football it's rather becomes a bit sort of dull and boring or cooperative and and serious this is you know it's all about money really so it would be Ronaldinho for me have you ever met him no never met him but I met quite a few footballers have you photographed a lot of sportsmen because i have just out of complete intrigue and uh but but but it's it's very difficult because you're you know it's such a serious business and they they can't really do so many things and and uh but but but i enjoyed it and you don't retouch your photographs which is pretty unusual in this day and age and And there's a way that you light things and that gives people this recognizable beauty that's associated with your work.

11:56And you make limbs look very beautiful, like in 70s photos when people didn't use retouching either. And I wondered if you're interested in glamour and what it means to you. Well, first of all, it's not quite correct that I don't retouch. it's it's uh you know for many many years now i i i work in digital so so it comes as a raw file and and even if you have a color negative you actually control of how things look like how i want things to look like so you are manipulating immediately something already and uh but if you talk about like if if i do self-portraits or or if if i photograph you know like if i if i would do a portrait of someone i would that you know i photograph them so well i i subjectively believe this person should be seen by me uh then there's no need to be uh to be retouched you know if and there's people who want to be photographed by me and people who don't want to be photographed by me is completely fine but the people who want want you know uh feel secure within themselves they are completely fine to be photographed by me that's just quite easy it's quite straightforward because what i really like about your work is when you photograph people you seem to bring out a kind of spirit in them like something wild which when you're searching for that thing to capture what's the instinct what's it is it is instinct and i think i have a kind of like uh might sound funny or something but i think i have a really good sense of uh that i can feel and sense the aura around the person and i really i i think i'm really fast with assessing what would be good and how I should be photographing that person in the best possible way for me and for that person yeah it really comes across it must be exhilarating to know that you've got that even if it doesn't always work it always works it has to always work yeah that's the point you know and then it's not like and sometimes things you know you mentioned that picture you've seen at the Paris bar in Berlin, the photograph I did of Saint Laurent, that literally took 15 seconds and that was it.

14:37And I knew I had the photograph I needed to have. But sometimes it takes a long time and sometimes you do this and you become, and I have to ask somebody to, you know, I had this idea and I can't quite reach it and I'm thinking of this could be, why don't we try this and it could be another session or another day and another day and sometimes this takes a very long time so you have to have patience and and and and to yourself you have you have to say you haven't quite got it yet and you have to work till you till you really have it and you also have to be saying to you know after i think you have to just be honest uh you think oh my god it's it's it's it's this room here is so beautiful and you take try to take a picture of you and and and you look beautiful and for some fucking reason it doesn't quite click but all the kind of ingredients are there and you don't know what and you have to you have to you have to be honest to the person you say i don't quite know how to do it right now and let's just Let's have a coffee.

15:48Well, let's just have a cigarette or go for a little walk and then try again. And through this conversation, through this openness, and I think it's about showing a certain vulnerability within yourself to be open. I can be a clown behind the camera. And, of course, I'm the director of the whole scenario. And you have to show your vulnerability of being a human being, photographing another human being. Yeah, it's interesting listening to you describe that, because I spent a lot of time sitting for my father, who was an artist. And when things went wrong, I think my great lesson from him was when something goes wrong, you don't give up, you persevere, however you do that.

16:40Yes. And for things to go to, I think that is really the point. You kind of think, oh, I think that could be really good. And when you outspoken that idea of what you think you're going to do, when you outspeak it, it might sound ridiculous or stupid. but actually when you then work on it and you you you have to learn from your mistakes of like you say well that didn't quite work but through this working process something else comes along which does make it work and it and it drifts to the left or to the right and and you always have to if we're talking about portraiture or or or photographing someone you know i'm i'm very dependent on the and i want to be dependent on the on on on the on the subject on the person i photograph you know if somebody is more extrovert like uh let's say chris mcmahon and me the pictures are going to be more extrovert if somebody is more shy it it will be a more of a sweeter shy photograph obvious i would never ask anybody to do something which I felt morally wouldn't fit to that person.

17:56It would be ludicrous. And I think you have to be, it's a lot about psychology. You have to be very clever and very sensitive and very sharp of where you want this thing to be going towards. It's interesting because you seem to be able to bring your subject into the solution if things for some reason aren't coming out how you want it even and it's I like the way you describe you know giving them an opportunity somehow to be involved in that and when I used to sit for my dad I'd be hyper aware when things went wrong because he'd get incredibly agitated and sometimes stab himself in the leg with his paintbrush and but I knew there was nothing I could do except for sort of will myself to be as good a subject and sometimes I'd say should we have a cup of tea or something just trying to gauge how how I could just move it out of that trapped in time moment where everything seemed to be going wrong into the next moment when there was somehow some movement.

19:19That's really part of it, not to be afraid of time and of failure and of letting it be.

19:34And it's really difficult. It is really painful. And every time I'm nervous. You know, it's because every time is a new thing. Every time is a new situation. It's a new scenario, whether it's sunny or rainy or whatever. And it's really nerve-wracking. It's really, because I don't have a, you know, I have, of course, let's say, I have a very strong idea, but I let that be quite open and fluid. and I can react very quickly to change that if something doesn't work. I don't have a storyboard or look at some old photographs and trying to copy that. I'm trying to do my own thing. And that is nerve-wracking.

20:26But I have an excellent partner in crime with me now because it's my wife and she's always with me and she keeps me calm and through her I'm getting better and better. Yeah, it's a big deal being so nervous because feeling so nervous that it could paralyze you is always the big kind of threat, but nerves are so great as well because, you know, they propel you. Of course, if you're blasé, forget about it, yes. Yeah. Yes. But I often find if I'm really nervous, my adrenaline goes so crazy that I become very, very slow. And then that makes me really panicky. And I have to try some other techniques to, you know, be speedy and not feel this syrupy kind of awful, like quicksand.

21:26Right, right. I feel I'm going to disappear into. do you're often naked in your self-portraits and I wondered how how come um I mean my my dad used to paint a lot of naked portraits and then he would do naked self-portraits as well and I wondered if you use the nakedness as a start of a new phase of work well it's really just a small part of my my my whole repertoire of of of of interest i did a lot of fashion photography and photographed a lot of actors and and celebrities and and and people and and in about two two thousand i got a bit uh tired and bored of the vanity of people to a certain extent and and i just out of out of pure interest I thought how would it be to photograph yourself I wanted to feel how it feels like to be photographed by myself and and it was an exercise I did and and you know and and I have been photographing fashion to a certain extent quite a bit and I didn't want to deal with any kind of clothes and things.

22:50And I kind of wanted to be as natural and pure as possible. And that meant being naked. And it wasn't anything else. And apart from that, I really like the skin color, any kind of skin color, whether it's, and I like the flesh, and I like the fat, and I like the muscles, and I like the veins, and I like,

23:15it's like I like photographing a tree you know it's all amazing and and for me it all doesn't it doesn't make any difference whether I'm I'm as much excited as photographing a tree than my mother my wife my my children my fashion photograph like a cookbook I might be doing or or anything you know if my interest lies in whatever it is, I just got commissioned by the Vatican to photograph the Pope. Oh, God, really? Yes. I love the Pope, this Pope. And that was super exciting. He didn't ask for any retouching. So there you go. And I just worked on a book. I got commissioned by the International Auschwitz Committee to photograph Auschwitz.

24:13And that was a life-changing experience, actually, for my wife and me to go there and spend three days. I've been there once in 97 already.

24:31And coming back to these naked self-purchase, it just gives me a, you know, I wanted to feel like how it is to be photographed by myself. And it really helped me to be, whether it's naked in the forest, whether it's cold, how long can you withstand something in weather condition or without some model complaining when it's 18 degrees and it's a little bit cold. You know, it puts things in perspective for me and pushes me. And when people seen, some people who I showed the photographs, it really helped me to go even further. You know, I showed the pictures to Charlotte Rampling and she said, yeah, that's what you're doing.

25:21Okay. And it helped me to go further with other people too. Yeah. Because I do it to myself. I mean it in a very much positive way. to know what kind of a journey you can invite someone to for example yes yes yes do you have any phobias my wife is asking me to pay for plastic surgery

25:55i don't know i'm sure she won't because she is as beautiful as she is This is a paid advertisement for BetterHelp. We are always hearing about red flags and the traits we should be on the lookout to avoid. What about green flags, the qualities we want to enjoy in a relationship or friendship, like kindness, listening, not jumping to conclusions? Therapy has helped me break some of my old patterns and embody some of the qualities that I long for in another person. I can get trapped in negative fantasy and talking to a therapist has helped me become less wary and guarded and communicate my feelings better.

26:42With over 5 ,000 therapists in the UK already, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise in mental health. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at betterhelp.com slash neurosis. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash neurosis. And you worked a lot with Vivian Westwood, who I started my kind of journey in fashion with her. and she's quite a critical person. And I wondered how you connected with her to find what she wanted from the campaigns that you did together. I really loved Vivian and I really love Andreas, her husband.

27:40And I worked with her probably 35 years, 30 years ago. and for her company. And then French Vogue asked me to photograph her. And it was one of my first assignments for this Condé Nast adventure.

28:06And Vivienne said, this is the most sexiest picture of anybody ever taking of her. And it made me so proud. And it's black and white, which is unusual for me. And she sits with sort of ripped stockings with these sort of high, I don't know what you call them, these high heels. The rocking horse shoes. Something like that. And she sits there. And I thought she was so incredibly beautiful and had such a great aura around her. it's and then afterwards we worked together for id magazine and i said i said to them you know what i think i should be shooting your campaigns and i've never done that before ever i never asked for work ever and but i only would do it you know forget about other people and things like that i think you should always be in your own campaigns and and and andreas you too and then of course we had other people involved in it yeah and so that was the first time when actually vivian andreas were in their own campaigns and then vivian of course being super pragmatic and funny it's like adreas he's right it's cheaper that way as well but it made for me it just made complete sense and we've had a wonderful journey together all these years like for 20 years I've been doing their campaigns or longer I don't know what and it's always something new and it's always inspiring and and I never had any difficulties with with Vivian she always she she kind of like ate out of my finger all of my hands she she she really trusted me and she really believed in me and there was another thing which I normally also never really do that much at all.

30:06I mean, I don't do many nudes at all. People think I do, but actually maybe because they are known, but I don't really do so many at all. But that's because I've been photographing her for so many years in all these clothes and everything. And I think she is so wonderful looking and so special looking and so bright and intelligent and what she's a political engagement. And she had these orange hair and she had this white skin. I just said to her husband, I would love to do some nudes with her. And she was about 68 years old, I believe at the time.

30:54and I was like, oh my God, I can't believe what I said. I'm far too shy to say these things, but I said it to Andreas, who's her husband and my friend, and he said, oh my God, I'm going to ask? I think that's a great idea. And then Vivian said, oh my God, I never thought about that. i i would love to see these photographs myself and uh oh my god i was shitting myself in my pants i was so nervous when it came down to it so it went went down to her house in in battersea and then she made some lunch for us and everything and i was like like uh took ages and she and she says so when are you taking your camera out let's do it and then she's just stripped naked and and sat there with her legs wide open full blown full on i was like oh my god this is excellent this is beautiful and i'm really proud of these photographs and and vivian too and i had them in my in my in my show at the the ICA in London, and they were really large.

32:17They were like, let's say, 80 by 100 inches, like huge prints, right? Three of them as a triptych. And people said to me, oh, my God, I wonder what, you know, have you even thought of what Vivian's going to think about this, being so huge and everything? so she comes in at the opening and somebody asked her about that and then she says and then she said i think that could be bigger i have very very fond memories of vivian yeah god she was so great and she just she made everything go further didn't she i mean yes i learned i was so useless when i worked for her and made so many mistakes. It was really unreliable.

33:04She was a mixture of very exacting and very patient. And she was such a good teacher. I mean, she'd been a teacher. Yes, yes. She's very teachery. Very teachery. But she was also incredible, beautiful, naive and playful. And that's, I think, where we connected to kind of go on something which we haven't seen or want to do and things. Yeah, because she was quite, there were very few people that she completely trusted or kind of was unconditional with. But when she chose that person, they had everything from her. Yes, yes. Did she teach you something in particular, do you think?

34:00I'm not sure in particularly, but I think just to be another notch of being confident of being yourself and doing what you really believe in and what you're doing and being consequent about it. Yeah. That's all. When you meet good people, that's all they can give. That's what they give you. Yeah. That's wonderful. Yeah, she did. she instilled that. But she did it in a kind of, you know, now everyone is so considerate, which is very nice as well. She didn't have that style. She just expected a lot of you. And so it made you rise to the occasion, even if you fell over loads of times doing it. But, you know, she raised the bar.

34:54Yes, of course. She showed you what was possible. and, you know, that I'm indebted to her for that. You said that everything is a self-portrait in some way and I wondered, like, when you photograph a very sort of amazing young model, what part of yourself you're revealing then. I have to admit what you're saying now, that seems a bit far-fetched now in a way. But what I meant to say is like the way I see the world, the way my opinion is, is that if you see a whole body of work, you know, a project I'm doing that I would see as a self-portrait. I mean, if I just photograph a young girl, you know, it's a bit difficult to say that's kind of a self-portrait, but it's the attitude I have with how it might look or whatever.

35:56Also, I suppose there's a tenderness within that picture that is part of you. It doesn't seem that far-fetched at all, really, even though it sounds a bit of a cliché coming from me. I mean, I never thought of, you know, if I do photograph a young, beautiful model, it's, brutally speaking, it's just a job. It's a job who I do very, who I want to do very well. If it would be a young, beautiful model, it would be, you know, then I would photograph my daughter or somebody's friend's daughter or something. But if we talk about models, it's an assignment. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I was looking at your Balenciaga campaign and that young athlete who's so kind of delicate looking.

36:59And why did you decide to choose her? I mean, she's obviously totally remarkable, so I suppose that's your reason. But there's this very, this feeling of incredible strength that comes from her, this tiny, delicate person. Well, sometimes within, if you do some fashion advertising, you discuss with a client who you should be thinking would be good for promoting that product. and sometimes me or the photographer have a say and then sometimes that's who I have to photograph. You see what I mean? But I like Balenciaga very much and they have a very good... I like them. I think they're probably the most modern outlook on forward thinking of fashion for me to a certain extent on a wider scale of what you can see on the street wearing.

38:13And I like that. And it's been excellent fun. It's been really fruitful and good working with them. and they very clearly wanted to have something from me in it. Yeah.

38:35And Deville and me, we worked really hard on it and it was just really, really good what we ended up doing. Yeah, it looks fantastic. It looks very real. I mean, it looks very like a natural collaboration. Yeah. Sometimes you photograph these fashion and you never see them in the street. you're thinking where is all this happening where is where is this all going you know i'm not a fashion expert per se you know but uh but in terms of balance yoga i i like how how it gets how high fashion can be translated into that a normal world and uh and i like that yeah that's a real accomplishment i think yeah very rare it's true and brutally honest what does that mean to you and what about hurting people does that worry you

39:35i know i must have said that brutally honest