Fashion Neurosis with Kim Gordon

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1:10Hi, come in.

1:17Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Kim Gordon. Thanks. Can I ask you, why did you choose what you're wearing today? Well, it was partly because it's hot out, but I've been wearing these silk pants for most of the tour, alternating them with these flared Adidas pants. And I don't know, just something comfortable that's... I kind of actually recently re-found this red necklace. It's like an ancient Agnes P. necklace. So I just, because I'm wearing all black, I just thought I would put it on and accessorize a bit. It's quite Marie Antoinette, actually, in a kind of, I mean, I've no idea if she wore it, but I imagine someone with the blonde hair would wear this kind of significant color around her neck.

2:16as you get older you become less visible so i thought i want to wear a red necklace it's a really good point actually because there's this whole thing about being less visible but there's so much to say and do as we get older and especially if we can wear clothes it's like got to wear them you know be a bit more adventurous well if you're a bit inclined to hiding yeah you've described yourself as shy and even introverted yet you have a way of drawing attention to yourself I've always been quite fascinated by how you dress and the sort of subtlety of your style and especially your short skirts and you've got really amazing legs thank you you really do and I wondered what the first pieces that you chose like as you were sort of establishing your sense of identity when you were a child?

3:17What were the first pieces of clothing that you adopted as your identity? My mother, you know, she grew up in the Depression, and so she would buy my clothes at thrift stores or make clothes for me. But then when I was 12, we lived in Hong Kong, and it was still a British colony then. And there was one store that had all these sort of modish clothes. And I saved up all my money and I bought a pair of these red corduroy hiphucker bell bottoms. And that was the first sort of cool thing I ever bought. And then it wasn't really for a long time till I, when I was in Sonic Youth that I started wearing shorts.

4:03like a pair of silver leather shorts that I guess I bought during like the goo era and or we did this kind of goofy photo shoot for the cover where basically I really sort of for me glammed it up because before that it was more just sort of struggling with clothes and things like that and being kind of poor also but it was always kind of like a challenge to sort of balance out like something cool and something that's maybe more femme um and kind of shorts on stage seem to I don't know I just got more energy from showing my legs really um because there's a way that you look on stage like I was watching an old video of you in a punk movie where you're wearing this really short stripy dress and it's you're just moving around but there's something about your legs being sort of almost out of sight that they can just you seem really unselfconscious and I I'm always intrigued by that because you're a shy person but it's not like you're showing yourself you're just being agile and wondered how that happened.

5:28I don't know. I mean, I used to take a modern dance, Martha Graham, when I was a teenager and then some kind of rigorous ballet and playing music felt like just moving around on stage. And it was just very physical to me, which I think I was, you know, I was kind of sporty when I was a kid and good at good at things like that so I know so the dress I like to always contrast a dress with like playing distant music and that dress it seemed like the perfect dress because it wasn't like too femmy or anything and it just got shorter and shorter throughout the tour because I would sweat so much and then I just started shrinking that's quite good really because it sort of deals with any conscious like i'm gonna have this it just it just makes the look for you and you're in it and then you can be slightly more visible yeah i mean i always liked that um you know like keith seemed to like the stones early on seemed to wear the same thing all the time.

6:41Or like, maybe it's just because there were drugs involved. It was sort of like too lazy to change. But it wasn't like, I don't know, it was sort of like embedded into like their personalities in a way. And I don't know, it just seemed like this kind of effortlessness in terms of, I don't know, what they wore on stage or something. And I think that Anita Pallenberg obviously had a lot to do with that. Yeah, she did have a huge influence. She was a friend of mine and she had a big influence on me too. Have you seen the documentary? Yeah. I really want to see that. It's great. It's fantastic. It's really, really good.

7:31In fact, she's one of those people of which you are too. when I feel stuck and I want some like fire about like a direction to make things for or I want a mood to kind of immerse myself and I think of her she was quite strict as well and think of you because you both have this elegance as well as this kind of wow that's so funny because she was a big role model for me really oh great Yeah, I mean, I'm not really that bold, but yeah, I think it's interesting adding small details to what you wear. yeah it gives things more association doesn't it and that's I think why people are obsessed with how you look because it's your look is relates to all sorts of thoughts and ideas and that's that's very stimulating for a for an admirer it's funny because honestly like I really always struggled with what I wore on stage or just day to day or like when I first moved to New York everyone looks so chic because they wore black all the time and I kind of felt pretty out of it but when I did that book for Rizzoli which is all pictures it was like oh my god it's just a collection of bad outfits that's how I thought it was going to be and then actually when I look through it it's kind of it is kind of interesting because everything now looks so kind of polished in a way or or generic or something yeah I think that's you that you bring that to the outfit this sort of polish and you probably being a very modest person well but you do bring that and that's what's interesting because there's not a lot, you know, you don't laden it on.

9:42It's all quite subtle, but it's very, it's so specific as well. It's so noticeable and it goes through, sort of affecting. I've gotten better. You know, I know more what works. Yeah. Did you have a code or a way of dressing when you were growing up? Did you want to stand out or blend in? When I was in elementary school, I went to a school that was like an experimental lab school. And girls could wear anything they wanted, whereas in public schools, they had to wear dresses all the time. And I was kind of a tomboy, if I can use that term. but you know I wore like jeans and no my mother had no idea how much new clothes cost and so you know and then I sort of dressed kind of hippie-ish but I I just really never felt like when I bought those red corduroy bell bottoms that somehow like it was equated with music that I was into and so that really influenced me and in the sense of like what was going on in England and you know it was so far away but then I lived in LA which seems so un like mod you know it's more like you know more hippie and I was I was confused like how can people be into David Bowie and live in LA or something because it's just all about being casual and, you know, wearing t-shirts.

11:21It's so dictated by the weather. And so, you know, Hollywood was such a pocket or bubble of LA. Yeah. How were they into David Bowie? And I mean, I'm shocked even now when I go to LA and how dressed down people are. It's like, there are no clothes, but I mean, And I know everything that costs a fortune, those kind of cashmere rags. Yeah. It's kind of interesting how that way of dressing has also become such an export. Yeah. It's like now all over. And skatewear, streetwear, like even in London, I think of it as a place where people dress more formally, but I go out on the street and actually that's not really true.

12:11But somehow people, the sportswear and stuff, it's much more overt than, you know, James Purse kind of open neck T-shirts and sort of mild jeans and stuff. Everything is very anonymous, whereas at least what you're describing is skatewear is kind of exciting and it has an energy. Right. Yeah, I guess at some point it really influenced the fashion world. I had a similar sort of, we had very little money growing up too. And it made one or two things seem completely amazing, like the chords you were describing. And then the idea of having lots of things was just like a fantasy. and sometimes it's I think that's sort of stays a bit um well I hope it doesn't because I'm in the fashion business I need I need people to want more I think it's kind of fashion is sort of all about making people desire things or and you do have to kind of want to desire I mean some people I do sometimes shop out of anxiety, but since this is a fashion neurosis moment.

13:38But I think that you also have to really, yeah, like want it or there is desire involved. And that's what makes it fun. When you have your anxiety moment, is there something in particular that you try and buy as a sort of anesthetist? It's more like, oh, let me go back online and look at those jeans, all these different solid jeans or something. Or, you know, it's just like buying something that I probably don't need. Can I ask you something about your hair? I know you're a natural blonde, but you have this very particular kind of sheet of blonde hair. And whenever I see you on stage or in photographs, it's almost like someone has photographed you in color and you and translate it into black and white like those Andy Warhol sort of silver screen things and I wondered if you like if you'd seen something or based it on anything well okay I'm not a natural blonde anymore but when I was a natural blonde it was always dark underneath I dark roots dark eyebrows recently actually lightened it up a bit but um you know instead of letting it go gray I go more blonde because it does look better in pictures around stage it looks really good have you ever tried another color I once dyed it black and then I also used to put medic panic colors what are they like it was I think it was like magenta at one time which I really liked and then red you're more daring than me I've I've never dyed my hair but it's partly because when I used to sit for my dad which I did a lot he I just knew he'd freak out if that ever happened oh yeah I was gonna go blonde once and then he said do you want to start a painting and that was the end of that wow yeah Coco has never colored her hair my daughter yeah and And it's, like, it is turning darker as she gets older, but it's this really unusual, you know, color, dark blonde now.

15:55You know, it gets lighter in the summer, but, like, people really try and achieve that color. And I was glad, as a teenager, when her friends were out doing that, she didn't do that. How did your parents dress? you talked about your mother making clothes and things, and I wondered whether you were influenced by, how did they, what was their look? Well, my mom, you know, she would shop at thrift stores and then tailor her, she wore like blazers and stuff like that. But when she was making clothes and occasionally she would have like a showing in the house, She collaborated with this man who made these beautiful woodcut fabrics on chiffon and velvet.

16:45And then she would make caftans and these dresses called abbas, which were really simple. But the fabric was really beautiful, actually. And I had some of those things. But mostly, she was, you know, kind of unconventional. In what way? Well, my parents weren't materialistic. I mean, they were maybe because they did grow up in the Depression, but they, you know, they were middle class academics, and they just never really bought into consumer culture. And I don't know, maybe because she grew up sewing and making her own clothes. They were kind of like, I always thought they were a little odd. Some of the clothes, like they were dark.

17:36A lot of them like weird kind of dark patterns sometimes for herself. But as she got older, she would buy things from the Beverly Hills thrift store and, you know, loafers. And she became more, dressed more conventionally. I guess I didn't realize like, I was like, why is she still so obsessed with the way she dresses and looks? And now that I'm older and I realize, boy, I was really unempathetic. She's like pretty clueless. Like she has all these shoes in her closet, but she only wears these or something, you know. And it's like I do the same thing. But it sounds like she was like staging something almost like fashion shows rather than just making clothes.

18:22I mean that she was it was a performative thing. Yeah, I think partly, like, she grew up thinking her sisters were more beautiful than her or something. I don't know. She never really felt, like, really seen, I think, as how beautiful she was or could be, you know, when she dressed up. So I think it was, like, a preoccupation. it's a really good function of clothes actually to have you know to use clothes for that feeling of being of being too shy to show yourself or just lack of confidence and yeah they're like a soldier's uniform if you have you have a good outfit I remember going to this therapist who asked me if I had a lot of good clothes in my wardrobe so I was describing sort of crisis of confidence and I said, no.

19:14And she said, well, you really should, because that is your tool for feeling better. It's a means to an end. And I took her advice and I have loads of clothes. And I remember when my mood is going down that I can sort of adjust it up to a point that an outfit is a kind of useful strategy. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I also like the idea that you're maybe curating a little bit of the environment that you go into. Yeah. How so? Can you think of an instance? I don't know. It's just kind of, it's like the outer layer, you know, you're just projecting some outer layer yourself, I suppose. But you kind of add aesthetically to the environment in a way, just visually.

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20:47But you also said that he had the most profound effect on you, sort of more than anything in your life. And I wondered what that was. I mean I was definitely influenced by like books he was reading um you know whether it was Nietzsche or I don't know Sartre or something but um in more in kind of always feeling like the underdog in a way and just sort of maybe made me a little bit of an overachiever or just always he was, I don't know, just kind of searching for like, well, what am I good at? I mean, I knew I was always artistic and good with my hands, but it was strange because when I moved to New York, I started writing.

21:45I never really thought that I was a good writer, but to me it was all about ideas. and if the ideas were good, then the writing could be good. And it was just strange. It's kind of how when you move away from your family, you have a certain dynamic in the family and you move away, you can sort of rediscover or reinvent yourself or something like that. I guess that was a big part of it. Like, oh, I guess I can write, but I'm not flowery or good with words in a way. I was interested because I could imagine that kind of level of being held to account by someone with a very critical mind and how I wondered if that had, well, in fact, you just described how it had made you sort of examine yourself and like work harder at what you may have to offer.

22:44yeah and also I mean it made me into probably a giant people pleaser but um at the same time I'm kind of like fuck it yeah my dad was a bit like that because even though he wasn't he didn't pay negative attention to me he was one of the most articulate people even though English was his second language he had this way with words that was so devastating that it kind of it was fascinating and how he would sort of single things out. I mean, I didn't grow up with him, but it made me very interested in the power of words and how I could damn someone. You know, this was when I was at school and trying to feel powerful.

23:30But then, you know, how language is everything. And I still believe in that very much. In your book, you also talked about no-wave music and how you were drawn to that and the dissonance and I think I could sort of picture you like in the eye of the storm and I wondered if that influenced like how you decide to present yourself in this kind of sort of chaotic noise and there you are, this kind of beam of light in the middle of it. I mean, to me it just seemed like really free. just really free music. Like it wasn't, it kind of had the attitude of punk, but it was in a certain way more interesting because it wasn't just three chord rock or, I mean, there were bands like the Rinkoats or the Slits who were not conventional in that way.

24:36And there's a certain amount of not knowing how to play an instrument that gives you an awful lot of freedom and I just felt like oh this is I can I can do this it just it was a little bit of escaping from the art world at the same time which was a bit like a pressure cooker yeah I was intrigued um by some of the things you talked about in in your book like you talked a lot about that song going back to Cali by LL Cool J and then you talked about the video and I didn't I wasn't that familiar with LL Cool J and so I listened to the song I watched the video and then I did a shoot and used some of the backdrop just as like a photocopy in the background and then I I made a jumper for you even though I'd never met you and uh I was reading something you'd said and you said I wanna I don't know what you said but I just thought this I wanna and I put that on the jumper it was a cashmere with navy with shorts do you still have that I I think I have it somewhere in fact maybe I'll make another one and give it to you and um I like to read about musicians and who they're interested in and I got so much from what you were interested in.

26:08And you just seemed so definite. And I was wondering if that's something that you nurture on purpose. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I liked how minimalistic the music was. And Rick Rubin produced that record. And then the video I just thought was so funny. Actually, he probably didn't produce, going back to Cali, but his first record called Radio, His first album, he did. But it was just so funny, like just, yeah, I just really liked the humor of it and the way it was shot and making fun of like California white girls. I don't know. I wanted to ask you, if you fancy someone and you don't like what they're wearing, does that kill your attraction to them?

26:52Possibly. It depends on what that item is. Is there anything that springs to mind? Oh, God. I don't know. Maybe a baseball cap on sideways. And maybe a mullet. I'm sorry. A mullet. I never really got used to that. It is very self-conscious, actually, a mullet, isn't it? I think when people are too self-conscious, there's an embarrassment for them that is hard to overcome and then, you know, be attracted to them. Yeah. Sometimes I sort of override that. I feel so bad for them that I fall in love with them. I did that one. Or just like somebody who's too fashioned out. I think, I don't know, it's different now, but there was a time when men who were straight who were too preoccupied with fashion or something, Just like, I don't know, just plain button down can be sexy to me.

28:01Arthur Miller style. A lot of people project their fantasy onto you. And in reverse, who do you think dresses in a cool way at the moment? Do you have any fashion icons? Well, I always go back to Chloe Svigny. To me, she's truly a fashion icon. and I like that she kind of always plays to the street and you know just kind of has fun and she also has great legs too but she does she just makes clothes look good it's her all the time isn't it yeah and she you know she takes a lot of risks and um yeah and if you're feeling low are there certain clothes that make you feel better? It's more about having a good hair day, actually.

28:57You do have this great kind of floppy hair that is so enviable. So how do you keep it like that? It's not good. I mean, honestly, it's just a constant thing. I mean, second-day hair is just always best.

29:18but I'm really bad at blow drying it you know I've just sort of given up yeah there's only one person who really blows out my hair the way I like it people don't other people don't understand bend just put a little bend in it and it comes out too like fluffy it's amazing how of all the hairdressers you've come across there's only one person that that sort of makes your hair the yours yeah I mean I've had other people on shoots that are fine but like just walking into like a you know a salon if I'm like if I feel like getting a blowout that will last you know or something so I'm lazy so I don't have to wash my hair um for a few days and that's difficult And when you get dressed, where do you start with an outfit if you have that?

30:14Oh, I don't know. Pants. Yeah? Probably. Not a shoe or any extreme? Definitely not a shoe. Or a sock? I almost never wear socks. What are you wearing on stage on this tour? so I'm mostly wearing um just these Celine satin boxer shorts and this satin black satin shirt that has like a little sort of bow thing around it um and uh these um Isabel Marant boots it's good like sort of low-key but black rather than you had a lot of white last time right exactly um yeah I hope it's not boring but but on stage you even if you're wearing different clothes you seem to have this incredible look and when I first met you and you came to my studio and tried some things on and and I gave you this white silk Minnelli shirt with a black tie and then I saw you wearing it and that was so thrilling and exciting I felt like I got into your psyche by providing you with this thing honestly I love that um blouse and I would still be wearing it um but I felt like I had to change things up a little but it's definitely that was my favorite look on stage do you find as as you get older your relationship to your body and how you dress it changes yeah I guess I um I mean I always have to like I always ask myself is this you know am I dressing too young or is this like uh uh you know is this age appropriate and it's difficult I mean I think if you're on stage you can get away with wearing things that I probably wouldn't wear you know like I don't go around wearing shorts but I also like what Chloe kind of reminds me sometimes like isn't it better to be like street and eccentric you know and keep that you know which is part of your personality as you get older or something It's true.

32:39Do you find that you're less critical of yourself as you get older? I mean, I find that about myself. I was so locked down and judgmental. Now I'm like, go for it, you know. In some ways, like it fluctuates wildly. And in your hit song Bye Bye, you make a list that's like a poem and you name-checked three designers and one of them's me and I wondered how I managed to get onto the list of all the amazing clothes you have. Well, it really was like a packing list. So I was wearing your shirt on tour or I had worn it, you know. So, yeah, and then I don't know why I put Eckhaus Lada. I think I like the way it sounded.

33:34and, you know, why yourself? I don't know. Like, I have a couple things that were given to me. Yeah, I just, you know, something, it's a list that's, like, partly real, partly not real, so. It's incredible that... The real list would be much longer. But somehow the things that you've included is like a philosophy, almost, what you've described. And then my friend Joseph said it reminded him of Joan Didion's packing list. Oh, yeah, it's funny. I had forgotten about her packing list. And then I was listening to Unaudible, this memoir of hers, which I highly recommend. It's really well read. The narration is good.

34:19And there's a lot of quotes from her work in it. And, yeah, there's a part that talks about the packing list. And I thought that was awesome. She is kind of a style icon, I guess. uh joan didion yeah she is magnificent isn't she yeah she's just so great i must listen to that that memoir it's written by someone else it's a biography but it has a lot of her writing in it yeah i think she has a similar thing to you in that she has this innate elegance this this kind of freedom and also something of the soldier and of I've got this I'm gonna do that and no no one will stand between me and my idea but it's it's sort of gentle and steely at the same time which I always admire well that's a huge compliment well thank you so much for being on fashion neurosis Kim lovely to have you thanks for inviting me to your couch

35:48You