Fashion Neurosis with Mia Khalifa

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1:10Hi, come in.

1:18Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Sarah. Thank you. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes? Yes, I can. I guess I'll start at my feet. I'm wearing brand new because I'm on your white couch, but my absolute favorite shoe designer, the queen of the party shoe, Amina Muwadi. And then going up, I'm wearing Chaitan anklets, which are my designs. And then I'm wearing a vintage Jean-Paul Gaultier dress. and I chose it because the colors seem to fit your mid-century modern home and it's very comfortable and it matches the shoes perfectly. JMM glasses, I believe.

2:07They're so beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. They have a bit of a tint on the lens and I like it. It kind of diffuses light. It makes it very comfortable to wear all day. My perfect kind of 70s style glamorous intellect. I love them. They're gorgeous. Thank you. And your name is Sarah and you're also known as Mia Khalifa, who is extremely famous. And is it necessary for you to separate yourself from such a public persona with a different name? I don't know about necessary, but I think that as I've grown older, I've become more comfortable with Mia rather than the other way around. It was a bit of a clash in the beginning where when I harbored a lot more shame, I would kind of twinge at Mia.

3:02But now I've accepted her more. When you were a child, was there a garment that you obsessed about, like a thing that you longed to wear? Everything in the Betsy Johnson store. That was my era growing up as a preteen and a teenager. That was her prime. Every time we would walk by that in the mall and I was allowed to look in the store and pick one thing a year, usually around my birthday. gosh she would make the most out of this world just kooky crazy designs that were so girly I loved her so much so you were kind of going for the girly that was what you wanted to sort of embody at that point yeah but funnily enough the way I actually dressed was very androgynous and tomboy and I even chopped all my hair off at one point really in the middle of the night no what was that what were you um because I always think that there's a there's this point kind of I mean for me it was like when I was around eight where I really had to align my identity with through what I wore and I didn't have many things and there was I became fixated on a particular shirt and uh what was going on in terms of your identity at that point I was I was being introduced to punk rock oh my god and I was in love with skater boys and I don't know why I thought I had to dress and look like one but that's kind of where it came from I wanted to look like Billy Joe Armstrong from Green Day oh my god so I cut my hair into a mop like his and my punishment when when everybody woke up the next morning was that it wasn't getting fixed I had to live with that haircut until it grew out which is kind of traumatizing that's so mean it is isn't it I think children's punishments are just so I know I'd rather have gotten beaten no I'm kidding and when you were at school you described your mother wanting to give you Lebanese snacks like Lebanese cheese for your snacks and how mortifying that was and snacks are such a currency at school and did your mom have some understanding of your need to fit in none whatsoever there was no um understanding of that because there was also a huge culture shock on their end they were I mean they were children essentially who got married and had kids and then emigrated to a new foreign land for a better life and they were terrified of losing their identity so they tried we weren't allowed to speak anything but Arabic at home when we came home from school yeah which I'm grateful for because now I still speak it but I also I also had no value in school at lunchtime no one wanted to trade snacks with me and I was already in easel and I already had a weird haircut and a bit of an accent I had a lot going against me and the snacks did not help no the snacks are disasters I had that like hippie snacks that I used to go under the table quickly eat them but you know it was you had nothing to barter with yeah exactly and it also I mean now it smells delicious but kids in school are mean and they would make fun of how it smells and now it breaks my heart to think about oh I'm gonna cry to think about bringing back home the bag and the food still being there and her and her asking me if I if I didn't like it or if I wasn't hungry and I would get upset why there wasn't something in there like an uncrustable or something like high in saturated fats and now I'm like stupid I was eating organic Mediterranean food like home cooking every single day and wishing I was eating processed, fake government cheese.

7:15I totally identify. I would have longed for some of that. Tinned things, you know, anything. Yeah. It just, it meant so much more than food. It meant some sort of respectability in society, for me anyway, of like the whole thing of fitting in is such a big deal. Exactly. um yeah because um and do you remember what the first thing you wore was when you actually wanted to invite disapproval oh my gosh I love that question I think it was I was able to convince her to get me a pair of checkered vans and then I went to school one day and I had all of the white squares I had done something different to with my pen and or with a permanent marker and that that garnered a lot of disapproval because those were 40 vans those were brand new shoes that I had vandalized and so cool I know but what did you write like just things that meaningful like gd in one square and then I would color one in and then I would do like just lines in one just you know just doodling in them but I was discouraged from from kind of showing personality and individuality when I was younger there's a lot of pressure I think in in a lot of cultures like in Indian and Latin and Middle Eastern cultures and a lot of Asian cultures to conform and be similar and follow follow the line of of your family and kind of do everything to appease that micro society and the community that you're that you're in and anything outside of that is seen as I mean as a black sheep and they gotta die out like a betrayal of values really yeah exactly yeah god that must have been so hard because you have such a fantastically charismatic personality and it's what so one of your it's so appealing and you know endearing as well thank you um I know I had uh I didn't have that because of my background was different from yours but I when I tried to emulate my rebellion my mother's rebellious position that she'd taken I was you know punished and criticized and misunderstood so I found it really um confusing like well she did that and she's told me about that and yet I'm doing something similar and there is no tolerance whatsoever they didn't want to listen at all.

10:14I think I just felt my my ulcer grow because I'm very terrified of of what future I have coming for me I I fear that all of the lessons I have to teach will be then used against me as a well you did this why is it not okay if I do it and when you're young and your frontal cortex hasn't fully formed you don't understand that an adult telling you what not to do isn't them trying to control you it's it's them trying to guide you and no one under the age of 27 28 will ever see it like that but I think the only the only thing that my mother forgot to do was explain that it's just acknowledge my kind of you know the my questions and my sort of disobedience instead of slapping it down because she had told me how brutal her father had been with her and how, you know, really she'd run away from home because she couldn't, it was intolerable.

11:18But then when I did minor things, she was so freaked out. She just didn't bother to tell me like, look, you know, I get it, but do it like this. And so don't worry, it's going to be okay. Yeah, I feel like we've done a lot more work on ourselves than our parents have. Yeah, we've learned how to, and I mean this in a good way, manipulate a situation so someone doesn't feel like they're being controlled. Like we know. Yeah. Yeah. But even just, you know, this listening is such a big thing. And I think that's what one of the things with kind of learning how to do things differently is learning how to listen and not, you know, that that kind of reaction that creates misunderstanding.

12:08I have to work on that. I think you'll be okay. You seem so kind of eager to understand things and it's the willingness that makes everything, I think anyway. How has being the target of so much desire made it difficult for you to know what you actually want? I think it's the other way around. I think that I spent so much of my younger life not knowing what it was to be desired that I was willing to I was willing to give myself to people who were only giving me validation in exchange and not a safe place or or anything other than something as temporary and fleeting as that I think that as I've grown older desire doesn't really mean anything I think curiosity means a lot more than desire that's that's what moves me when someone is curious not when someone is like just desires me yeah because it's it's such a seductive thing you know and it curiosity is so much more erotic than than desire desire is that's human nature it's it's it's carnal but curiosity is it it pokes something in here and it it's a it's a very clear difference when someone is interested for one reason or another and i've learned that as i've gotten older yeah the discernment is I mean the frontal cortex is a major organ muscle whatever it is because you've talked about your insecurity and low self-esteem and making decisions from that perspective and what would you have done instead with your current self-knowledge do you think I would have protected myself more and I would have stood up for myself more and I would have advocated and I would have, I would have been a lot more, not everyone deserves you.

14:32and yeah I I'm on a journey right now of celibacy and I've really really really found peace in it it's so comforting and it's so it's just so nice to know that I personally am in a place where my standards are are set in stone and they're unwavering and it just really makes me feel like I finally know who I am and I finally know what I want and unless that's met I provide everything for myself including a climax that's incredible I mean it's It's an amazing thing to hear you say that because it's like, you know, it's such a powerful thing to be desired. And it's very confusing as well because it's very difficult not to, well, I'm only, you know, speaking for my, not to respond to that because it's such a kind of, it feels like love at the time.

15:50It's so softening. And then to take that out of the picture and explore what you're actually kind of responding to. I mean, you know, most people, either they become monks and nuns or they wait until midlife crisis hits them and try that out. It's very adventurous. and also, I mean, you have a lot of courage with your huge amount of intelligence and I wonder where does that come from, this kind of single-mindedness? But it's not just single-minded, it really is courage. You've gone through a lot. I think, well, first of all, there's more power I found

16:47in withholding myself than in giving myself and using that as a ploy or relishing in that feeling of what it feels like to be desired and to give into that. I've found a lot more power in the word no. and in that. But I think the, I don't know, I truly believe that knowledge is power. And I hope that I don't come off as single-minded, although I am extremely stubborn and very difficult to be convinced out of my stance on a lot of positions. But I do pride myself in also being able to listen and, and understand when I don't have full knowledge of something and could be wrong on something. And then I'm curious and I want to know, and I want to see if, if my mind can be changed.

17:56And I think that that's, that's really exciting and fun and, and what makes human interaction so So like those are those are my favorite types of conversations with people where we're kind of having a back and forth of our, you know, defenses of our our points of view. And it's done in a way where we're not defensive, but we're both curious. And I think that that comes when both parties aren't that committed to whatever they're talking about. But more easygoing in the subject matter. Yeah, exactly. I mean, for me, single-minded is a huge compliment. It is? I pay it to you as that. What do you mean by single-minded then?

18:55I suppose I mean like... Oh, I think I'm taking it as narrow-minded. Oh, God, no. So for me, single minded is originality and adherence to something that, you know, an idea that you believe in. So it can be quite a lonely place as you're often up ahead. It is, but it also feels like that's where integrity lives and that's where you need to stand on your values and your boundaries. That's where that is. Yeah. So I am. Thank you. Thank you for for seeing that. Like you've we've known each other for very little. And to say that about me, I'm very I take that as a huge compliment that that's what I give off.

19:45No, you do. Thank you. And what about the culture wars? Does do you find lack of comprehension comes from older people? because you seem to be creating a different language for young people to use around these issues of self-worth and kind of being single-minded. I think the world would be a better place if everyone born after the year 1985 went to therapy. Unfortunately, we can't make that happen, so all we can do is hope for this generation. It seems like more people do go to, I mean certainly I would advocate anyone born before 1985 go to therapy because young people seem more interested in understanding or knowing themselves in the way different from my generation where no one did unless you were sort of under a psychiatrist or something.

20:49Do you think it's because the age of the Internet has made us all a little bit more self-indulgent and therefore more introspective? I don't know if it's self-indulgent. It's like a good idea is more obviously a good idea. And so it's normal. And maybe my generation who grew up where my parents' generation had experienced the Second World War and everyone had been traumatized and no one went to therapy. and my generation were like, we cannot be like that. We have to be more understanding or we have to understand how to not be like our parents in some ways. But, yeah, it seems much more accepted in young people and appreciated by each other.

21:47Is that fair to say? Completely. And I think that we're also encouraging our parents' generation to go to therapy or at least therapizing them and instilling change in them and pressuring them and forcing new thoughts and ideals into their minds and putting them at least in front of them. And I think that what's worked is also kind of removing yourself from – because there's a huge trend. I don't know how it is here with – we have in America Thanksgiving every year. And every year on that time, there's always a trend on the Internet of here I come into Thanksgiving to ruin dinner by asking who they're voting for, asking about their political stance or asking about this.

22:43But there's always those instigators. And that's a huge trend in this generation. And it's beautiful. No one was doing that before. No one was speaking up at dinner tables and kind of calling them out, calling them out for their hypocrisy or their bigotry or any of that. And it's just so close-minded and wrong. So I love that. This generation, and I'm talking about Gen Z, not even mine, because that's not how it was when I was growing up going to Thanksgiving. it's it's the younger generation that's brave enough and does not care they are so firm in their beliefs it's so beautiful yeah it is incredible seeing some of the kids on tiktok just being so matter of fact about things that are considered radical in politics but they're it's so sensible you know and the way they speak is is just completely normal yeah it's exhilarating to see that.

23:49And I guess that's the catch-22 of the accessibility to information, but it's also leaves you susceptible to misinformation. Yeah, of course. Is there someone who's influenced your idea of glamour? Who do you find glamorous? I find my business partner and manager and best friend Sarah Byrne glamorous. Like she's glamorous because she will go on holiday with a carry-on and a pair of sweatpants and the clothes she's wearing on the airplane and two pairs of shoes. And one of them is the Birkenstocks she's wearing on the airplane. And the other is a pair of bedazzled mew mew mew mew mews, which is how we call them.

24:34Mew mew mews. and she will make I kid you not 17 different outfits out of those things every I never see her not looking glamorous even if she has just woken up in her pajamas she always adds something to her outfit whether it's a shoelace or a ribbon or whatever it is she's just so I love I love the way she thinks and it's inspired me so much in the way that I dress how about your packing though no my i still have four suitcases everywhere i go i i'm trying to learn but yes i'm a heavy packer i just gave up i i um i remember going to live in the caribbean for a few months when i was 18 and half my suitcase i put all my records in there

25:29I just couldn't. Oh my God, that's so funny. I travel with incense and books and end up never touching them. But it comforts me to know that they're there. Yeah, I know. I think I just get I just decided I can't travel late. So I'll just take everything. And that is really, it's kind of liberating. So. um but you know what your home is I I think I think I love seeing it on your series because it reminds me of it kind of it's a mausoleum of your personality and in your life and I guess that translates into the way you pack you can't leave without those things and those reminders and the ephemera of all of that stuff so there's nothing wrong with that you could travel with your emotional support ninja air fryer I know my ninja is always like when I'm feeling really defensive I send a friend a picture an emoji picture of a ninja and that means I need a hug and it it's so good because I it's I have to be very clear about my my kind of offhand behavior which actually means I I feel terribly isolated and I need comfort but I can't say it so what's your love language well I don't know what that means really what do you mean what does that mean the five love languages is physical touch words of affirmation um quality time uh what are the other ones I'm blanking on the other ones but mine is physical touch yeah I think mine is yeah like even even Even if I'm, even if we're, we're asleep, like I, I get very, I can't sleep and cuddle, but at the very least, my pinky will be on your back.

27:24Like my, my finger will be touching, my toe will be touching the back of your calf. I know. I think that's probably mine too. A hug is everything. Yeah. Words are just too easy to play with. Yeah. And so a hug is unmistakably a comfort gesture. So, yes, I'll remember that. If you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction to them? Well, it depends. It depends on if I don't like what they're wearing because it's just mismatched and haphazardly thrown together. Or if I don't like what they're wearing because it doesn't feel authentic to them. Have you got any like pet, you know, things that you know you'll struggle with if you see them on someone you like?

28:15Too many logos. Too many logos or like a walking billboard. Like your hat and your shirt can't have a phrase on it. Pick one. Right. And what happens internally? Is it just like a reversed magnet? You feel yourself retreating? A little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Because I don't know, I feel like when people don't dress from a place of authenticity, it reveals insecurity or maybe that they're still trying to find themselves. And then I have a very natural instinct to run from that because people who don't know themselves will not bring you peace in your life. they'll wreak havoc on you and absorb you and your personality.

29:09That's so interesting, actually, because I think there's certain things I find kind of off-putting. What? Well, my latest thing is a bad T-shirt on a man. What is a bad T-shirt, though, an ill-fitting one or just an old one? No, an old one's kind of fine, but like a bad neckline, the sleeve length at the worst place, tight in the wrong places. Yeah. And really that sort of the kind of, maybe arrogance is too strong a word, but just putting this thing on that shouldn't be worn. And I sound so exacting and it is. But I just noticed someone who I quite like wearing this appalling T-shirt. And I think it was partly because it made him look as though mommy had dressed him.

30:03So I was like, I've got to get out of here. This is this is just so bad. What's happening to me? And I had to keep like resetting myself like, you know, I just got shivers there. Oh, my God. Yeah, there's nothing scarier than that. Because you know what? If you felt that way, he probably did consult his mom or she gifted it to him and he doesn't know any better or have his own thought processes to choose something different or to discern whether it's right for him or not. If she says yes, then he would wear it. And maybe a sales associate he fancies suggested he wears it because she wanted to meet her quota that month and he just bought it and wore it because he doesn't think twice about what he's putting on that says a lot about someone well yeah it does say a lot but sometimes it says more about you my own interpretation it's like no how can i make sure that i don't get close to someone oh the t-shirt is a disaster i've got to leave the country you know okay now are we kind of avoidance strategy.

31:10Your avoidance? I think it kind of comes out in places like that. I'm only just putting these things together at this late stage. This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp. Stress has become a huge player in our working lives. Stress may be a commonly used word to describe how we feel, but the feeling is still such a powerful influence on our behaviour. It feels constricting and the things that make me feel better are walking, listening to audiobooks or having a perfect cup of coffee. Therapy is the thing that has helped me alongside these activities. Knowing and being able to trust another person's perspective when my mind is whirring is a huge relief.

31:54With over 5 ,000 therapists in the UK, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. Unwind from work with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at betterhelp.com slash neurosis. That's betterhelp.com slash neurosis. You know, I have found that lately I've been asking myself, because I've kind of been questioning, is my celibacy a choice or is it a subconscious thing where I'm actually getting in my own way? And when I tell my friends about why I'm no longer interested in someone that, you know, I start to get to know, I ask them like, am I being too picky?

32:52And they're like, no you're you're just you just know what you want and you have good judgment and you can see 10 steps ahead and you don't need to pass all of these other pit stops of red flags to get to that point you can already see through all of that you because everything we do everything we wear everything we say is a very revealing thing about us way deeper than what it actually is surface level. And I think a lot of people wouldn't get it unless they've done work on themselves and unless they have that discernment in life. And you clearly do. The t-shirt is not, it's not a sticking point.

33:35Like they say that shoes say a lot about somebody and that's not in a, in a judgmental way about like a tattered pair of shoes, but it's, it's, it's very, everything is very revealing everything every choice we make is reflective of who we are and what we stand for so no you're not judgmental I am I know I totally own it and uh I I have to I have to give you a pass because I have to give myself a pass yeah I'm I'm um projecting over here I mean I think I'm interested, before my father was very judgmental and it was so thrilling to see someone who was that certain that I thought, I'm going to be like that.

34:22But then it became a bit of a trap and a habit. So now it's a lot better and I don't think it's a bad thing to be judgmental, but it's boring if you get stuck in a position that you'd like to reverse or come out of in some way. So, I mean, I suppose it's entertaining. He would make these damning comments about people, and it was very funny. But, I mean, back to the celibacy subject, I think it's a great way to find out about when you've been very sexualised, and it often happens, you know, when people have experienced sexual abuse as children that it's sort of a familiar place and it's a very kind of terrifying familiar place.

35:20So to experiment with a bit of abstinence is very adventurous and just cool. I mean, you're young, you've got plenty to play with and I think it's great. The pickings are slim out there though. It's rough. But it's like responding to what, you know, the thing you said earlier about curiosity being your, your, the thing that you find exciting and interesting and alluring. And it's a way of finding out something to take away the thing that gets in the way, which is what's supposed to be it. But you're taking that away. So you have more visibility of something that you don't even know what it is, but you're on the journey to find out.

36:19Exactly. Very roundabout. The impetus for it was actually a breakup. And after that, I really, really, really wanted, I want the next person that I'm with. I want to choose to give myself to them for a completely different reason than I ever have chosen to give myself to anyone before. And I think that's what's going to make it so special. That's very moving. It's so impressive. It's really impressive to hear about. And do you feel that part of freeing yourself from being sexualized is part of your interest in fashion and clothes and jewelry? and you know actually that's that's funny you say that because um I had a very restrictive um mindset about my body before I entered the fashion world this much um I I wanted like a very unhealthy amount of control over who can see my body because I feel like I feel like the 21 year old version of me it is is able to be viewed by anybody who who wants to see her and yeah and I wanted an unhealthy amount of control over over who can see me to the point where I would never even, I would never show my nipples anywhere.

38:01I would, I would, I was so insanely protective over, over that. And the more I've been in the fashion world, the more I've been on, on sets and, and around other models and around other women and around people who just see the human body as art, not as something to be sexualized. It has freed me so much. It has made me it has made me so much more open and and able to just be in my body like just as flesh just as anyone else that has been absolutely life-changing I felt like before I was in I was kind of in a prison that I that I built for myself like I like I wanted to spite people and and not give that up and I didn't know that in instead of instead of having control which is what I thought I was doing I was actually limiting myself and I wasn't free and I subconsciously felt trapped so the fashion industry has really saved me because pasties aren't chic nipples are chic it's amazing i mean it's so interesting that that would be the reverse of what would be assumed but yeah there is something freeing the body as this tool for showing clothes and for emphasizing something or suppressing something to do with what's about this garment and projecting a a character really because it's so interesting that clothes can give you this freedom instead when you they can free you from self-consciousness I really do believe that completely three years ago I never in a million years would have like I would have shut down at the idea of being nude again but now I see so much beauty and artistic freedom and liberation in the idea of being nude under a piece of beautiful silk or or lace or or even just being nude it feels I think I've also grown away from my shame and away from my trauma and grown into myself and my comfort and I've been able to kind of shut out the people who view me in a sexualized way and and be able to continue on and do what I want to do because it makes me feel free or beautiful or like I'm getting a message I want to get across because that's that's also what your body is for and meeting people like the incredible artist Linda Sterling and seeing yeah how how she uses her body and how she champions other women's bodies and and how she protects them while also showcasing them is so inspiring and so freeing I I was I would not have been in the same place had I not been introduced to people like her or like I went to an exhibition with with Sarah um I'm not speaking in third person.

41:28I'm talking about my friend. I think Carolee Schnee. Oh, yes. Yes. Schneeman. Yes. Yes, exactly. Oh, my. She changed my life. That exhibition. Like I just got full body chills even saying that and and thinking about it. she made art out of her tampons she made art out of her sexual conquests she kept a diary of every single one the sound that they made when they finished the size the amount the texture the viscosity every microscopic detail her her body was her vessel for for for everything like even even down to like swinging herself from a piece of rope and free bleeding onto a canvas like it's I know I know like it's it's it's extreme but seeing seeing an extreme and seeing something like like Linda's work and and finding my space in that in between has been, has saved me.

42:42That's so amazing because I saw an exhibition of her work at the Barbican. That's the one I went to. Yeah. And then her covering herself in paint and rolling around. Oh, that's what it was. Yeah. It was so, it was just so magnificent. But it was really good too. Yes. And every medium, too, from like art to collage to video to blood, like everything. And it really opened my mind to the possibilities and the unlimited like ways that we have of expressing ourselves. I never thought that that would be allowed, let alone showcased at a place like the Barbican. And I was so grateful to see that. It was so good.

43:34And it's interesting you talking about shame as well, because that seems like the antithesis of shame. Yes. But it's like a rehabilitation of our notions of shame, because, I mean, I was interested in the things that you've said about shame, because it's I found it to be the most paralyzing and debilitating condition, which poisons every action. And I wondered when you'd first become aware of shame. Very early. Very early. And I think I have to go back to the cultural aspect of cultures like the Latin cultures and the Middle Eastern cultures and the Asian cultures that are so heavy on inflicting shame.

44:26for stepping out of what's expected of you. And I think I've learned so much about how I would want to raise kids from that because shame is the most powerful human emotion. It will cripple you. It will ruin you. It will, it's debilitating. It's terrible. It's the worst thing in the world. And to experience something like that at an age like five, seven, 12, it's very hard to work back from. Like I didn't even know that that's what I was harboring until I started EMDR therapy. Yeah. I know I, I remember going to therapy and the therapist, it was a group therapy. I was probably about in my late twenties and she talked about shame and it was like a light bulb all the I had no idea that's what it was but I suddenly realized oh my god that's that's what it is it's just that thing that makes you do the opposite of what you want to do exactly and it just it just it makes you not be able to protect yourself because you're rooted to the spot it's and I feel like it's like it's like a transgenerational thing as well it because if I think about you know what my mum went through and and my mortification about myself and you know so when I you know and I've heard you talk about it and it's particularly impressive and touching and moving to see how you're breaking out and how you've talked about creativity being such a necessary part of this, you know, describing these artists and what you do in your work and your jewellery and it's really something.

46:37thank you it's

46:44yeah it's a very it's a very difficult mindset to grow out of and to even look back on and yeah that's something that you really have to always work hard to reconcile if you want if you want if you want to maintain relationships with the people who inflicted that on you, I think. Yeah, it's a really weird one. And I mean, I noticed like even in the way I designed clothes, I wouldn't dare do a big slit up the side because I'd think, I don't want anyone to see me. And then I thought, you know, this is so restrict, This is restricting me so much, and it's taken so many years. And I just, you know, it's like a curse.