Flea

25:59Someone must have shone a light to say, I can see what's going on, even if they can't help you. Yeah.

26:09Bella Freud:A sibling is... I think it's like, I don't know. like everyone you know that was painful like you know the parent obviously when you're a kid parents are like gods to you and even though you know they were dysfunctional and very difficult and by all like all the the markers that you give like they completely blew it yeah there was so much beauty there too like i remember my dad like just taking me fishing and looking out at the water and the smell in the morning you know when you get up before the sun rises because you have to get up early to go fishing and the excitement of it like the things that were positive were just so wildly positive today i always they were always you know that overshadowed the difficulties like Like I was like, yeah, it's difficult, but.

27:08Bella Freud:Yeah, yeah. You know, and like with my stepdad, like, yeah, he was terrifying. I used to sleep in the backyard. I was scared to sleep in the house because of what might happen. Yeah. Because he was so crazy. But, you know, his jazz record collection was so great. And we'd play with other musicians in the room and I would hear that music. It was just like, this stuff is God. And it's real. and it's there and it's still the same things that you know i mean i'm lucky now like you know and i it's hard for me like not having i don't know how it is for you and you know or what the way that you grew up really but you know when you're not shown what a healthy relationship is um it's hard you know and i'm married now we've been together about eight years and before that I'd been in five five-year-long relationships and then my pattern kind of repeated you know and I've like kind of broken through that and but still it's it's it's hard these things you know the legacy that you grow up with yeah having to grow up um when you didn't grow up at the time that you were supposed to yeah yeah you know what I mean like you kind of someone to guide you through this transition.

28:31And the other day, like, I got, I was furious about something. My wife's, like, looking at me, she's going, like, dude, like, this anger that you're expressing, it's not about me. And I've sit there, I'm like, fuck, she's right. You know? And I, you know, it's like I'm still processing all that stuff and trying to learn. Because the way I grew up is, like, you fly into a rage and you start breaking shit. yeah that's how you deal with it like the cops get called you know yeah it sounded so heavy

29:04Bella Freud:because you said i i grew up being terrified of my parents particularly my father figures and it caused me a lot of trouble in later life and how did it how did it replicate itself yeah i mean for me how did it replicate itself I think like fight or flight, you know, I've always struggled with like having a rage inside and having, you know, just not knowing how to deal with it. you know like i either i'm like okay so this is bad so i'm out of here because this relationship is crazy and then you know coming crawling back like oh don't leave me you know um instead of being able to like healthily deal with you know the inevitable challenges of you know disagreements and stuff when you're intimate with somebody and i guess you know that's i didn't know how to do that because you kind of you don't see it you don't learn how to do it and i think that's how it's manifested itself with me and uh

30:32yeah that's the best way i can put it you know just not knowing how and like learning and i'm 63 years old and I'm still working really hard on learning those skills on like learning to um like one have healthy boundaries to be able to talk about things that are difficult without turning into an argument or getting mad and three you know not getting down on myself like not being a victim yeah you know not or being a bully yeah you know because it's easy those things are easy you know it's so easy to be angry it's so interesting you saying being a victim or a

31:16Bella Freud:bully because they're they're the same thing aren't they they're just different sides of the coin yeah a kind of another way of of controlling someone but it yeah it's really hard to yeah Yeah, yeah. And it's so, it's like such a, even though it's a place of suffering, it's a place that if that's your tendency, it's something you understand. Yeah. And so you go to this thing that you understand, even though it's a miserable place to be. Yeah, yeah. And to try to like grow into a healthier thing where you deal with things and resolve them or realize that they're not resolvable because you stand in such different places is difficult.

32:07Yeah. But it's a place of peace and love and growth. And it's a lifetime work for me. It's the work of my lifetime. Yeah. Yeah. And I've been lucky to have vehicles to express it. like as a musician to be in a situation where I can really like express the anger within me through music and you know it's like through some form of bizarre alchemy turn it into something that brings joy which is cool.

32:46Bella Freud:You describe it so well in your book about your stepfather's you know his crazy rages and his violent, destructive outbursts and then his music playing where you're completely transfixed and he has all these guitars, but he won't let you play them either. How did you manage? How did you deal with his sort of contradictory parenting? Because it's so striking the way sometimes he's the most wonderful father. He's really encouraging. And then he absolutely won't let you do anything more. He won't take you to the next step. Yeah, it's funny. Like when I look back at it, at my relationship with my stepdad, and like when I saw him play as a young boy, I was blown away, Bella.

33:48Like when the first time all these jazz musicians come over, they set up you know it's just you know saxophones trumpets piano drums he's playing the upright bass and they start playing this bebop music this you know this jazz music this black american music that is so works it's so physical and it's so cerebral it's so spiritual and it's violent and it's beautiful and it's poetic and it's angry and it's everything and i'm just as a kid i'm taking it all in and I can't believe it I'm rolling on the floor and laughing I just it's just like literally like transforming me and worlds and portals are opening up to things I never knew were possible and I loved it so much and I look back at myself like how I must have been like so excited but he never ever once gave me a lesson or I mean that was the lesson that I sought you know and it made me completely like i mean i'm so grateful that i saw it and i you know listened to the records and stuff but and it and it made me go into career and music but it also made me like fuck you you know what i mean i think like and i just kind of like started looking down on him and creatively like i remember like hearing him practice and he'd pick up his bass and he'd do this thing he'd go boom boom boom boom ba diga doom boom like this riff he'd always start with and I'd think, oh, he plays the same stupid fucking thing.

35:19I'll never do that. Every time he picks it up, I hear that same fucking stupid riff. What's he doing? He's in a creative malaise. I love that. But then I wanted to just go play punk rock, you know, like to rebel against it. And in a way I kind of, because of my like abandoning of him and his thing, I went into, you know, I abandoned all this like kind of teaching that I could have gone into. but also it was just because I was with my friends I wanted to play rock music and next thing you know I was in a van traveling around the country you know sleeping in a van and playing clubs and you know started my life as a rock musician and as soon as I started playing rock music he just looked down his nose at it as this you know like just bullshit you know it was just uh had nothing to do with music it was about clothes and haircuts and yeah he just kind of sneered at it and that was that sort of jazz elitism that I grew up with that made me you know go in the opposite direction um which is cop out too you know it's kind of a useful device in a

36:23Bella Freud:way even though it's yeah not the ideal way to manifest it but you're able to kind of become your own person even though yeah you know it's not I mean I think through all the like the lack of parenting that I had from a young age I was in the street running wild yeah doing dumb crimes and all this shit like it made me be myself and it made me like i don't think like like you know when anthony and i found each other and we became best friends when we were 15 i think if you know and he came from a pretty dysfunctional situation too i mean i can't speak for him you know but um i think had we had these perfect cozy home lives where home was a sanctuary and all the things you would hope for a child um i don't know if we would have been able to like Like, oh, this is really important.

37:11Like, we're going to make this fucking band and we're going to do it. Because it wasn't like we didn't have any other choice. It wasn't like, oh, I'm going to go into my parents' business or they've showed me all these other beautiful things that I can do. It was like there is no, like, it's like Hansel and Gretel, we didn't leave any breadcrumbs and go back home. It wasn't like, oh, well, if it doesn't work out, I'll be a realtor, own a liquor store, you know, go be an accountant.

37:32Bella Freud:There was no other thing, you know. But to get back to what I was going to say earlier, when you asked, like, I just think about like with my kids, you know, I'm so proud of my kids. My two daughters are both like really dedicated to the work that they do and they're passionate and disciplined and they love the things that they do. And I think about my little boy now, my three-year-old boy, and how excited he is like when I play bass or trumpet, he just wants to touch it and strum the strings and do the things. And I think like, oh, my God, I can't wait to show him if he's still into it, you know?

38:08like and it's and it's really when i think back of like when i was little and i was so thrilled about what he was doing and in love with him and in love with the music and in love with it and i was just open that he didn't start teaching me that seems when i look back at that that seems crazy like yeah yeah like just like the joy of being able to do it to connect with a little kid and teach them this stuff, you know, because it's magic. These magic rules, like here's this magic vehicle that you can drive for the rest of your life full of infinite possibility. And here's someone who's completely open to it.

38:46And a little kid, like a cute little kid, like it's shocking to me that he didn't. And I kind of don't really know why because he must have been really occupied with his own pain. And like, I think it must have been really difficult for him to wake up in the morning and go through his day.

39:04Bella Freud:Yeah. That he didn't want that kind of joy in it. It's a real crisis of morale, isn't it? Yeah. Because when I was reading, I was almost inventing the next sentence, which is, he then gave me a guitar, and that just never happened. Never happened. Not only that, but never, like I actually started playing the bass, and he was a bass player. Yeah. And he never even said, like, this is a D string, this is an A string. Yeah. if you put these notes together, this happens. Or here's this little thing. If you work on it, it'll show you. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like never once. Yeah. And that's crazy to me.

39:42You know, he just like looked down at what I was doing and was like, well, that's shit what you're doing.

39:46Bella Freud:Yeah. You know? C 'est la vie, you know? Because what's your introvert-extrovert ratio? Because you're so thoughtful and outgoing mixed with a real shyness that comes through under the talent and elegance that you have. And I wondered how that had influenced how you dress, how you show yourself.

40:14Well, thanks for the kind words. I think, you know, as time goes by, I mean, growing up I was always, and still, I mean, I'm much better at it now than I used to be, but incredibly shy and insecure and nervous around other human beings, unless they were the ones that were close to me and we had established that we were friends and didn't know what to say, especially when you got into teenagerness and, you know, like with girls and stuff. But always, even now, you know, I'll be in a situation and I don't know what to say or what to do or how to be. But as time has gone by, like all through that time, I was always working, I mean, outside of the time when I was like a drug-taking lunatic.

41:26But even then, always sort of developing my interior self in conscious and unconscious ways by doing things that I loved and that took me out of myself. So whenever I could break through the social niceties and things that you do, like if you're at a nightclub or you're at a party or you're at a, you know, just a place where people have small talk or whatever, like I feel so uncomfortable. But when I can get, you know, engage with someone in a more meaningful way and I can feel like I can trust somebody in that situation and that they're trusting me, then I love connecting and talking and I don't, and I feel completely extroverted.

42:19and I think like what people see as extroverted in me is oftentimes uh I guess because the way that I am on stage or the way that I am in a as an entertainer you know as because I have a lot to express and I express myself you know physically and musically um and in terms of the way I present myself to the world just always like go for stuff that i like and it's pretty wildly different yeah um like i don't have a particular style that i love like i said today it could have been the suit or the cock pink cock pajamas um because i love both of those things yeah and i like but just when i see something that's beautiful like if i go shopping for instance for instance And I, and the person asked me, like, what do you like?

43:18What kind of, I'm like, I like things that I like. You know, I don't, it's not like, you know, sometimes I'll find, like, as I, you know, learn about clothes more, there'll be a particular, particular designer that I like. And I'm like, oh, I usually oftentimes like things that this person makes. But in general, I can see, like, from kind of any genre of fashion, is fashion, does it come in genres?

43:44Bella Freud:I suppose it can do. It can come any form, can't it? Yeah, like any form, like streetwear or like fancy things or things from any era.

44:00If I like something and it looks beautiful to me, I'll like it. Yeah. That's it. And I don't know, like something just feels good to me, the way it feels on my skin or the way it hangs on my body or when I touch it. And it's really wildly all over the place. Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, Global Fashion News and Features Director at Vogue and co-host of the Run-Through podcast. Each week on the show,

44:27Bella Freud:our listeners get an all-access pass into the world of Vogue. On Tuesdays, join me as I interview influential designers like Calvin Klein, Rachel Scott, and Simone Belotti. On Thursdays, join Chloe Mal, head of editorial content at Vogue US, and Choma Nadi, British Vogue's head of editorial content, as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like Doja Cat and Margot Robbie. Listen and watch the run-through with Vogue wherever you get your podcasts and Vogue's YouTube channel. Because hair's been a big feature in your identity, and I wondered what the first hairstyle you consciously adopted was.

45:07Yeah, God, that's a good question.

45:15Well, I think the first time when I really thought about, when I was a kid I just wanted to have long hair because I liked hippies. I grew up in the 60s. But that changed when I was walking down the street one day with my friend and we saw a van load of hippies going by. and they're like this hippie Volkswagen van with peace signs on it and they're all there with the long hair and we were so excited to see them because they looked so wild and we're like hippies yeah and we're like you know seven years old or something and they pulled over the car and they're like you fuckers will kill you and we were terrified it must have been like Manson and his fucking girls and they pulled over screeched over screaming yelling bloody murder and coming after us and man I ran like a fucking dickens out of there and then short and then another time after that there was this place and I wrote about this in my book yeah there was this place near where I lived in New York called the duck pond and the duck pond was great it was where I'd go with my friends and we'd walk around the pond and try to catch turtles or frogs or um you know it was a place to go and And there was this one kind of older hippie kid who was real cool, and he had long hair and bell bottoms.

46:32And we're sitting down, and I was like, I don't know, I must have been six, seven, something like that. I can't remember, maybe a little older. And he's like, man, like, what do you believe in? And I was like, well, no, like, what? And he was like, well, what do you believe in? Like, you know, like love or peace or I can't remember what. And I was like, well, love, I think. And he was like, ugh, you don't even know. And I was like, what an asshole. You're putting me on the spot. He was just lording his great hippie knowledge over her old great wizard. And I just thought, why? You're an asshole.

47:14I believe that you're an asshole is what I believe. And it kind of soured me on the hippie thing. um so as a kid i wanted to have long hair but then what i remember i moved to la when i was 11 and all the kids and it was that was so great like to go to i was in hollywood and um to go to public school then it's not the hollywood that you think of um for all of you who didn't grow up in 70s working class Hollywood it's not the show business Hollywood that one would imagine working class Hollywood was you know very ethnically mixed which was great it was like you know maybe 30 percent white 30 percent black Mexican Russian Asian from every different economic bracket and it was like 70s and i what i really remember is my hair was like shoulder length and i had a brush and i was constantly brushing it back i had it parted in the middle i just worked it you know i was always brushing it to create this perfect sort of what they called feathered hair kind of flowed back like that and i just wanted it to be like this perfect helmet of featheredness and i had my brush and like the brush was a fashion accessory too so it was always showing in my back pocket i was always putting it back and my favorite basketball player norm nixon had this gold chain that he wore all the time and i still am working it you know my norm nixon gold chain even though i don't have the feathered hair and so that was like I was that's the first time I can remember being very conscious of my hair and wanting it to be just right or just right but and then um I got into high school and then I you know I started playing bass and join my real rock band and everyone you know wanted to look like they were in queen you know or you know long hair and so you know my friend Hillel asked me to play bass enjoying this rock band and they had you know long curly hair like you were like you know like like I don't know what what that that that look like how to call it it's like you're a page boy for in the royal court of King George or something you know like this long hair what does that look

49:45Bella Freud:yeah the page boy that bowl cut that yeah but it wasn't really bowl it was long it was like you know like Robert Plant or yeah oh there's nothing like hobbits and like the guy in the suite with that long that margarine colored hair that yeah it's like a strange wig isn't it yeah it's long and curly and it's almost like sort of helmet like yes yeah yeah and so that was the beginning it didn't last long for me but I definitely wanted that yeah you know and I started playing bass and being a rock band and I was you know and all of a sudden girls started liking me and I had long hair and that hair but but real soon I I it wasn't long before I realized the folly of my ways and I cut it all off and cut it real short and I got a flat top oh yeah and um and and then I was in the band and they all three had the long hair and I had the flat top and um I was pretty proud of myself yeah with that um and then I was like you know and then I started dying it purple and blue and green and pink and having short hair and um mohawks yeah i love that la punk scene and um yeah and i kind of you know worked various iterations of that style and then throughout i would let it grow a little bit and my hair grows out it kind of gets like you know those flowers what do they call you blow them and it all comes off oh the dandelion yeah it kind of looks like like a dandelion, especially now that my hair is gray, it will really look like a dandelion as it gets bigger.

51:22It actually was kind of approaching dandelion just yesterday, and I walked into a French barbershop yesterday morning in a small town in the south of France and had it shaved off.

51:36Bella Freud:It's very good with the suit, this hair length, I think. Thank you. Thank you. You occasionally wear a mustache, and in fact you're wearing one today, and I wondered what draws you to a mustache. Well, first let me ask you, is my mustache crooked? Seems perfect. Is one side on one side bigger? You've got a very good gap that creates a sort of symmetry. Yeah, well, it's my trumpet-playing mustache. So I created a space for my mouthpiece to go in the middle, my gold mouthpiece. and I don't, you know, it's just, I'm just doing it. I had occasionally done one and it's always kind of funny to me to have a mustache.

52:23But now that I've been playing the trumpet seriously, it seems like a crucial part of the operation.

52:31Bella Freud:Yeah, it's such a particular thing, a mustache, and it seems very symbolic of masculinity. But I like all the way you play with masculinity, as you described, you know, when you were a child and you push back against the conventions of masculinity. And your moustache seems part of that playfulness. And the jazz history is so great, the way how people wore their hair as well. So you seem to be kind of continuing the tradition. Yeah, I would like to honor the tradition and hopefully move in my own way with complete knowledge of the mustache tradition of jazz and all mustache wearers. all the great mustaches from Salvador Dali to

53:39you know those guys you see in the Guinness Book of World Records to the suave pencil thin little mustaches from the 20s I would like to honor the mustache and I feel like I'm still growing with my mustache and learning from it and finding its place in this world. I'm helping it. I'm working with it.

54:05Bella Freud:So I remember reading Anthony Kiedis' memoir a long time ago, and there was this brilliant description of him being cruel to a kitten and not being able to stop himself. You experienced so much neglect and chaos in your childhood, and did you ever have the urge to act in a cruel way? Because it seemed a real, I mean, it was such a good description because I recognized this awful impulse that I remember having a pet rabbit who I adored and then suddenly I couldn't look up, I just turned against myself and it and everything and I just abandoned this creature. And it was such a good illustration of that.

54:59Bella Freud:And I wondered whether you had experienced anything like this, this kind of acting against yourself. Yeah, that's amazing. I've never read Anthony's book. I'm kind of scared to read it and I shouldn't read it. But I'm trying to think.

55:25I think that, oh, man, I'm really trying to think. I don't think I ever really did. I mean, there's definitely times when I've been thoughtless and cruel, without doubt. Yeah. But always, but never like that. It's always been like a mistake and then realized it was a mistake.

55:47Bella Freud:um it's interesting you know reading about you know when you were talking about anger earlier and how different people well I suppose you know when you were talking about anger I was thinking my anger my anger just becomes a this kind of dead stone that's locked around my ankles and takes me to the bottom of the river and it becomes this awful sadness and I, you know, like a deadening. And sometimes anger seems quite refreshing as a concept. And then reading that description of being cruel to something that you don't want to be cruel to and is so, so, you know, unable to protect itself and how there's something that's continuous in everything that I heard you describe is, which is a kind of dedication, like a remorse that makes you examine yourself constantly and seems to be a real self-preservation mechanism that seems to be hardwired into you and shows in your music and everything you do.

57:10And it just really struck me that... I think... And just to, that my problem, I mean, not saying, you know, I've often been unkind, you know, but my real acting out with anger has been against myself. I've like self-flagellated to, in a very destructive way. um is that mostly through drugs just like no there was that like for sure like acting out and doing drugs or putting myself in you know in situations that are unhealthy but more like like yeah there's that for sure like you know like shooting up dope when you're a teenager and smoking crack and doing all that stuff is destructive and you know it's bad but it feels so good um but more like like breaking my own heart yeah and like say like being in a relationship and running away from the relationship and ruining it and then or acting in a way that makes it untenable for the person to stay with me you know what I mean just being an asshole and which is you know cruel um and then beating myself for acting that way you know what i mean yeah in a way where i just feel so much self-loathing and lack of any sort of self-love yeah or waking up like i'm in horror of what i'm of how i'm gonna feel because of how much pain i put on myself like like just like um and not being able it's like when you say like you're like being cruel to a kitten and not being able to stop yourself like being cruel to yourself and not being able to stop yourself and feeling so much terror that I can't stop myself and that's been the hardest stuff in my life to deal with yeah so I think like and it's something I've given some consideration to that people who deal with trauma, PTSD, whatever you want to call it, childhood trauma stuff, that you can lash outwards or you can lash inwards.

59:52Bella Freud:Yeah, yeah. And I think people have tendency to do both. And they're both kind of the same. It's like what you talked about being a victim and a bully kind of being the same. They're both kind of the same thing. and um and i you know i think only through real sitting with yourself and meditation and honesty and work like doing work to deal with yourself and to see yourself in an honest way and to feel things without acting out like to sit and feel you know tremendous fear and anxiety and pain and self-doubt and to just sit with those feelings um you can actually grow and get better yeah and even um though i know this is a lifetime work for me i know that i've like i can see myself um as i get older and sometimes you can kind of like look back at yourself and it's like looking at a slow motion or a time-lapse photography or something like you can see that you've actually come some distance yeah yeah yeah and so just try to consciously always stay on it you know because you described yearning for the familial comfort and the structure of a loving family which you weren't getting and then you say from the depths of brotherhood in my life came Anthony Kiedis, and he was the spark to light the fire.

1:01:30Bella Freud:And what was it about him that drew you to him? When I met Anthony, he was someone that was like me in a completely different way. And like I say, I think we both had a measure of childhood trauma, even though I hesitate to speak for him because I really can't.

1:01:57but he was i don't know we were both just obviously really different than everybody else that we were dealing with and we both had this incredible desire for adventure and to break free of everything around us and like everything around us was just seemed like this structure that was set up to go be the same way as everybody else and And neither of us, like I talked earlier about like having no chance to be cool or to belong to the cool kids or to belong to any of that. And that I, all I wanted was to, you know, I knew that I could never be that. And I still know that I could never be that. And I just know that I have to be myself and do my work and be my own way.

1:02:43And I knew that he was the same. and when I first met him like right away we started like arguing kind of fighting um but right away we just started talking for hours and hours and and and we became friends it was like let's go get into some wild shit today whatever it is yeah you know and we're both neither of us had like parents who were like setting up after school programs or or anything to do beyond like just, you know, it was a place to sleep, you know, and get some food if we were lucky. And so it's just we were just drawn to each other and into getting into something wild. And things that I remember about Anthony when we were really young, and I'm not sure if I wrote about this in my book or not, I might have.

1:03:40but he like and we talk about like fashion and stuff like i remember i didn't even give consideration to what i wore there were things that i liked that i had you know you have a favorite t-shirt when you're a kid but when i was a kid we didn't have a lot of money so it was like i got two shirts two pairs of pants um some you know and that was it you know and a pair of shoes for until they wore out you know or they got your feet got too big and so i had like you know four combinations of you know what i mean like wear this shirt with that with the blue pants with the white shirt of the way you know and and when i remember like saying i had like my best one on and i was like this looks cool right one time he was like yeah you look it looks fine but anyone in school would wear that like you should always wear stuff that no one else in school would wear or whatever it was you know what i mean and i remember like struck me like it was a big thing.

1:04:33It struck me like a ton of fucking bricks falling on my head. Like, he's fucking right. Like, why would I, like, my mom took me shopping to the store where everybody goes.

1:04:42Bella Freud:Yeah. And then, and like, since I was a kid, I always worked in some way or another. Like, I'd always be hustling money. I'd stand out in front of the supermarket and, you know, excuse me, ma 'am, can I carry your groceries to the car for you? You know, or anything. I'd knock on people's doors. Can I cut your grass? Anything to get like a little bit of money. and I started going to the second-hand stores and just buying weird shit, you know, and wearing it. And that was so great, you know. I'd wear my mother's clothes. I'd find my mother's, like, pink pantsuit and wear it, you know. And finding my own way like that, and that was great.

1:05:22And I owe Anthony to that. Like, he awakened for me in that. And there are certain people in my life who did that for me in lots of ways, but for fashion, Anthony definitely did that for me. I remember my friend Pete Weiss, he's someone who was like, let's go to the movies. And I was like, okay, you know what I mean? Whatever is popular, let's go see it. And he would say, well, actually, there's these Louis Benwell movies playing at the Art House Theater over on Beverly. Let's go. And I was like, what? What's that? and all of a sudden like my world opened to that yeah yeah you know like oh my god there's this whole world of people that are making art not you know what i mean to sell corporate shit for me to go eat popcorn on hollywood boulevard but there's all this stuff and it's amazing and you know people do these things you know and uh changes your life yeah it really does yeah yeah i love you mentioned you know and anthony did that for me too and it was and and and when i say like lit a spark it wasn't just you know the fashion it was everything and how it related to music and and he knew about rock music that i didn't know you know what i mean like i was a jazz nerd when i was a kid then halal turned me on to jimmy hendrix and led zeppelin and you know this like you know these great rock bands and then anthony was like listen to this first blondie album you know and Debbie Harry going, I'll give you some head and shoulders to lie on and being like, oh, my God, she'll give me some head.

1:07:00You know what I mean? Like Debbie Harry and she was, you know what I mean? It was just like the fact that she would sing that and it hitting with me, you know, and they looked so cool. And then I started meeting people in the punk rock community in L.A. and I got in this movie called Suburbia. And I joined this punk rock band called Fear. I took acid and saw Fear play and then joined their band. And all this whole world opened, you know, changed everything.

1:07:34Bella Freud:Because when you were at school, do you remember the clothes that the girls were wearing that you were attracted to? And I wondered if that has changed much throughout your life. what kind of switches you on visually. Yeah. Well, when I was a kid, I was so, like, in high school, in junior high when it started, you know, there were, like, the pretty girls. And the fashion in L.A. at that time with these, like, tightest jeans that you could imagine was, like, you know, they had, like, this flap with these gold buttons that kind of came up the crotch. Yeah, like sailor pants. Yeah, but like so tight that you could see the openings of their pussies, you know what I mean, with the camel toe.

1:08:22Yes. And it was like you couldn't – I was like, what? Like you couldn't like take your eyes off it, you know. And I was – you know, that was so, so like – like I was so intimidated and terrified and in awe. And then these, you know, these really flowing like silk blouses. And, you know, it was just like – we were just in the south of France and all the streets are called chemin this, chemin that.

1:08:47Bella Freud:Yeah. And there was this fashion called chemin defer. Did you have that in the UK? Yeah, yeah, I remember that name. It was just like amazingly tight pants and these chemin defer like silk shirts with no bra. And that was my first like, you know, memory of sexuality and girls. And the cool kids were hanging out with these girls and I knew they were having sex and they were taking coeludes and they were up to some shit. And I was just so far on the outside of it and shy and weird. And I couldn't, like if a girl would talk to me, I couldn't even utter a word. I was so scared that I was supposed to live up to this thing that I didn't, you know what I mean?

1:09:31That I just couldn't do it. That's the first fashion that I remember. And then when I got into, I guess, towards the end of 11th grade and a halal asked me to play bass and join the rock band all of a sudden all these girls started talking to me and um and it was still kind of that style and that was when i first you know started like having sexual relationships and stuff and um i you know i was just being so in awe and excited and but also like oh well they like me because I'm in a band and it not, you know what I mean? Like it took a while for me to actual have a real relationship, you know, like connecting with a person.

1:10:21Like it was just like, oh, they like me because I'm in a band because that's literally what happened.

1:10:24Bella Freud:Yeah. I mean, it wasn't, it was just like how it went. And all of a sudden it was like where before I was scared to talk, they were like, it was like they didn't care. They would talk to me anyways. That's an extraordinary one. And it just, everything changed. Yeah, yeah. And so that was kind of a weird trip, too. And I'm actually like, this is one of the first times talking to you now that I'm kind of considering that and how I dealt with that. And then shortly after that, it was punk rock. And the girls said I loved the way that they dressed. It wasn't a revealing way of dressing at all. And in particular, there was, and I started, It was like when all of a sudden it became like girls that I really started liking, and it was a type that I liked.

1:11:13And I still am attracted to this type of girl, I think. And my wife is like that. Well, she's kind of different. But I remember the first time I was in love with this girl, and it was like this punk girl who was violent and tough. and she dressed like she had, this was like in 1981, 82, like just kind of after high school. And she was like this wild girl on the punk rock scene. She sang in this band called Twisted Roots, which had members of the Germs in it and the Screamers, which were like real important bands on the L.A. punk rock scene. And she was like this teenage girl that chose Spearstone because she was just wild.

1:12:03and i went to see them play and she was like insulting everybody in the audience and she had like purple dreadlocks and she dressed like raggedy ann you know yeah and um she was this wild girl and she used to fight everybody like to be on the punk rock scene like all the girls were scared of her but they all tried to dress like her and she would literally like just like beat people's ass she was wild her name was maggie and still is maggie and she's awesome and um but it was this type of girl really tough on the outside you know and then i got hired to be in this movie called suburbia and she was in it and i was like i couldn't even believe that i got to be in the same room as her, you know.

1:12:54And I was just like the director just took, I joined this punk rock band and the director took a liking to me and asked me to be in this film. And when I said things, she got in, she started, like she was really kind to me and was like, thought that I had something, started like giving me, like I was just kind of an extra, but she started giving me all these lines and making me a character. And I was just like in awe of this girl. and this real tough, you know, girl. But then she started talking to me and started showing me this really tender, soft, loving thing that was protected by this fierce way of being in the world, you know.

1:13:34And that to me was just like I couldn't believe it, you know. And I think I've always, it was this, you know, this sense of self, this toughness and this willingness. But a lot of it was to protect.

1:13:51Bella Freud:Yeah, yeah. And she had grown up, I'm hesitant to speak about someone's own difficult childhood, but the way that she had found to survive in the world. And so I've always been sort of, I think, drawn to survivors. Yeah, yeah. And I guess it's not always to that extreme, that kind of toughness and hardness, but people that make their own way in the world and a woman who makes her own way in the world and works hard and has this thing, but there's this beauty, but they don't take any shit. Yeah. And yeah, very drawn to that. Such an interesting time, that, because growing up in the 70s and those very revealing clothes that I remember trying to, you know, I didn't have many clothes, but just this thing of these tight things that then attracted a certain look that was really hard to handle being, you know, like a young teenager.

1:15:00I bet. And then going to punk, which was like, how do I show that other side of my, you know, because this is so, you know, spiky, literally.

1:15:12Bella Freud:And then it was just a complete 360. And it's great listening to you to describe it, you know, how someone being prickly in their kind of demeanor and appearance can be so appealing and relaxing in a funny way because there's something to sort of negotiate. It's like, how can I, you know, just get a bit closer and it's fun? And I wondered if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does that kill your attraction? Yeah, it does. I mean, I must say that like I've, but yeah, no, The way someone dresses, it does show a thoughtfulness or a thoughtlessness or a sense of self that I feel.

1:16:17And I imagine that the way that I dress makes people feel certain ways towards me or not, you know what I mean, in positive or negative ways about me.

1:16:35but it's funny to say that.

1:16:37Bella Freud:Yeah. To really look at it, because I always feel like I just like people who, you know what I mean? Because I, you know, I like their soul, man. You know, but like, like I was just now in the hotel lobby before I came over here and I'm staying at this fancy hotel here in London, you know, rich people hotel. And I started talking to this, I was waiting, you know, it's a mix-up with the car and I'm waiting to start talking to this woman in the lobby and she's never like, you know, a middle-aged, dressed very expensively in clothes that, you know what I mean? Where I just, you know, looked at her and I just see like square, you know.

1:17:16But I started talking to this woman and she was like really interesting and insightful and displayed some real sensitivity and caring about the thing we were talking about. and um i was like okay you know like maybe you know chill it with the judgments you know

1:17:35Bella Freud:there's nothing better than revising your judgment is there because i love i mean i am quite judgmental and i like having an immediate reaction to things and and then it's so thrilling much more thrilling to then find you got it wrong and there's something rather good about whatever it was you were kind of denouncing. Yeah, or like how much of your judgments have to do with your defenses. Yeah, yeah, very much. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not one of these people. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I'm this place, like, I'm not one of these, you know, yeah, I'm my own self. Yeah. And so judging people.

1:18:17And then sometimes you're really right. Exactly, yeah.

1:18:21Bella Freud:And it's good to keep that alive as well and not be afraid to be, you know, critical. Yeah. Yeah, no. And it's like you said earlier, like, about anger, like, sometimes, like, you know, it can be so, like, you know, kind of holding back. Like, I'm like, okay, don't be angry. Be calm. You know what I mean? And then, you know, something happens and you're just like, fuck it. And you let it out. You know what I mean? unleash the beast. It can really suck to do that and I felt much shame afterwards from doing that. If I fly into a rage and start yelling or being insulting to somebody it can be terrible.

1:19:06But also sometimes you've got to unleash the beast

1:19:10Bella Freud:within and let it live. I had this amazing thing happen a short while ago. I was doing I do this therapy group with some friends. It's like a men's therapy group. And in the course of it, I was talking and speaking, like making myself vulnerable, speaking about some shit. And I became furious at my friend in the group. And I screamed at him, fuck you, motherfucker. Fuck you. I got really mad. You know? And I immediately, right after it, I felt like, oh, what did I do? Like, this is someone I love. And whenever I've done that to anybody, it damages the relationship. Like, I'm showing them this ugly part of myself, this angry part, you know?

1:20:09And my friend looked at me and he said, cry right now saying it, Bella, because it was so generous. And he meant it. he said i feel so honored that you feel safe enough to do that to me because i know that

1:20:25Bella Freud:means so much you love me god that's incredible and it's like the most generous fucking thing anyone ever said to me in my life you know because it's like you when you show somebody a part of yourself it's not good yeah like a rage it's never helpful like using your caring and you're loving and something you care about and you're angry about things because you you see something you love being hurt or you know or yourself being hurt or betrayed in some way but when someone you can show them about yourself and you're like i know that you wouldn't do that someone you didn't care about because you you know what i mean you can't it's such a risk isn't it it's amazing like it was really amazing to have happen god and uh yeah so that's a thing too you know with anger like you're showing yourself and it's like when you're in a relationship i remember when i when i met my wife and right in the beginning like she's the kind of person who um okay she's the kind of person who there's like right she just asked questions you know what i mean i mean you're doing it right now for the reason but it's like that like our very first date was like let's go out to this party I'm going to impress her because I know these bandits playing.

1:21:47She's going to think I'm cool, right? And so she comes over to my house. I'm like, you know, she opens the door, and I'm like, oh, my God, I'm in love with this woman. And right away, I'm saying, let's take a walk around my yard and have a talk. We have like a half hour. And right away, the conversation goes like beyond, like right into the depth. She's like, what's going on with you lately? And I'm like, well, I'm going to, you know, I tell her. and it starts and she's well why did you say that or why are you doing that or why did that happen and you know right away getting right underneath the stuff you know into the real thing and i just start telling her everything and it's like um everything means not all nice things yeah you know and it means truth and you're looking at someone and telling them these things and you know that they're listening and hearing it and they're like understanding that you're a human being and that you're not perfect and that you have shortcomings and confusion and pain and you know as well as all the joy and understanding and beautiful stuff but you know I guess it's just like that's what love is you know yeah so cool because you come across as a great unifier and

1:23:03Bella Freud:you're loved by band members and friends and does it feel different being a band leader does it feel the same do you feel the same amount of freedom or like when I'm doing my honor a band yes yeah the boss yeah um well it was a very freeing experience for me um making a record uh playing the record it because I didn't I was prepared to kind of fail doing it yeah you know because I wanted to play I wanted to play trumpet when I was a kid and I was like okay I'm bringing back up the trumpet and I'm going to make this jazz record and I was just you know I don't care if I fail like I I was sort of you know there's times when I was like really optimistic this is going to be so fun and I'm just going to make this trippy record and there were times like god I don't know if I can do this like if it'll be any good and it'll be embarrassing you know to the other musicians if I just suck you know and then I read this great Neil Young quote when he talked about how important it was to fail.

1:24:05Like how failing was great because it means you're trying to do something and if you don't, you're not taking the risk of failing, you're not doing anything. If you're just doing something, you know that it works. And so that was inspiring to me. And going in to do it as a band leader is my vision. And I was really, it was beautiful being a band leader. I just got to work with great people. I picked the right people. I was fortunate in that. And they were all so loving and supportive and bought something to the equation that I couldn't have done by myself. So even though it was my thing and my music and my idea, I dealt with people, in particular my producer and kind of partner on it, Joss Johnson.

1:25:00who were just, you know, really thoughtful, sensitive, kind people. And I was scared to work with them, you know, because they're so good. They're great jazz musicians. And I think I had that thing from when I was a kid and my stepdad was like, well, you don't know how to play jazz. It's nothing what you did. And I remember once seeing him as an adult, like before he died, one of the last times, it might be the last time I ever saw him. And I said, you know, kind of doing this jazz stuff. And he like laughed. and I was fucking infuriated. It wasn't about this record. I was just like, I'm kind of working on jazz.

1:25:36And he just kind of like laughed. And it made me so mad. But it was still like bringing up this stuff, you know, of like growing up with this jazz elitist mentality that you're not doing shit because you're playing rock music. And I thought that, you know, well, they're real jazz musicians, these people. But they weren't like that at all. They were so loving and just like really gave their hearts to what I was doing in a real beautiful way that not only was like, you know, their virtuosity and their musicality, but just their love for being together and playing music with someone in a room. And the way that it made me feel was it was just like this portal of a new world opening for me.

1:26:19And I feel now there's this whole other part of my life that has come that has so much possibility and opportunity for me to find ways to express myself, all the things I know I have inside, a new form. And it doesn't mean abandoning any old form and not being in a Chili Peppers or anything. It means a new form. It was like when I made my book. It was being able to articulate things that I had always articulated in the abstract form of music to do it literally. And it was the same thing I was doing playing music, but it was being done with words and finding, you know, how to organize those thoughts and engage myself in a different way.

1:27:05But it's all the same shit.

1:27:06Bella Freud:Yeah. Well, it really comes through. I mean, it's the most beautiful album. I mean, I love it. I just love it. I fell for it as soon as I heard it. And also it just seems to kind of encapsulate, you know, all the way through, you know, my experience of your life through reading about you and preparing to talk together today of you, you know, the way you sort of, you describe yourself as like not being the cool kid, but you are the cool kid. because you bring this kind of, you create this center for everyone where it becomes so powerful and you're, you are the in, you're the generator of all this and, and looking at photographs of you and your wife and how you feel, you just look so burstingly happy and that seems so palpable and to come through and, you know, it's, it's an amazing thing to witness.

1:28:09Bella Freud:You know, I've followed your career for a long time and we've met briefly and a while ago and did this amazing thing together and and it just it's there are some people that make it possible for everyone to partake and you seem to be one of those people and it's it's me it's really a beautiful thing and And it feels wonderful for me. And thank you so much for being on Fashion Neurosis and being so open and so inspiring. It's fantastic. Thank you, Bella. It's so nice for you to say that stuff. And I'm grateful to be here. And I hope everybody noticed my orange socks. Yes, we did. We love the orange socks.

1:29:06I got some pink ones too, the guy that made the socks for the Pope.

1:29:11Bella Freud:For the Pope? Oh, really? Is that this special shop? These aren't from the Pope shop. Oh, there's a special Vatican shop in Rome where you can buy everything purple. Oh, wow. It's really good. But yeah, the orange socks seem like, you know, to manifest part of your kind of spirit, your optimism and your joy of life. When I think of orange, I always think of Jimi Hendrix has that song, Bold as Love. Oh, what's that? And he says, he kind of goes through colors and talks about how they relate to emotional states. And he goes, orange is young for the bold and the daring. Oh, that's so lovely. I've never heard that.

1:29:54It's a good song. Yeah. I used to think it was a song I wanted to play at my funeral or make them play at my funeral. I don't know what one now. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for having me.

1:30:06Bella Freud:Thank you so much, please. Okay. It's been amazing. Awesome.

1:30:23Thank you.