John Currin

41:58And I still was just in shock at how beautiful she was. And I couldn't believe it. And I was driving away from the train. She was walking away, getting onto the platform. And I was looking at her in the rearview mirror. And I got in this terrible accident. I went right into the intersection. And this car just T-boned me. And I didn't get hurt. nobody got hurt but it was like i wrecked my dad's car like while looking at rachel in the rearview mirror um that's like a but uh perfect movie scene anyway but um like the car like spun around like five times so uh but yeah i was i was in um definitely i i i felt like i i felt like i've been wanting to paint her for a long time and i do and i and i she still is you know my favorite obviously my favorite subject so because jarvis cocker saw your work in the turner prize in 96 and asked you to create an album cover for This Is Hardcore, and it's incredibly romantic and suggestive, the image.

43:19And Jarvis said, without being too literal about it, you communicated the general discomfort that was being felt by Pulp. Was that a discomfort of a particular moment in the life of a man? well i thought i i it should be said that the the cover was really more created by by by um by peter savile um i mean he really i i did what i did do is i did a lot of casting of of um characters of these fantastic characters yeah i think though that they but peter really came up with a pretty beautiful image for the cover. But Jarvis's songs, they're so, you know, kind of this amazing combination of sleazy and innocent and, you know, dark and funny and, you know, beautiful and and um so so uh and i think i i i can't speak for jarvis but i do think it was there was a um strange i think he was going it was you know being that successful suddenly well suddenly right they've been working at it since the 80s but getting what you've been dreaming and fantasizing about fantasizing about and it's and it's uh of course not what you thought it would be and and so i thought it it did uh it did at least to my mind it it's it seemed those characters this kind of you know disappointing disappointing awkward glamour you know i don't know i that's that's what spoke to me and yeah and uh uh you know the nice thing about jarvis is there there there there's there are not i've never liked coolness i never liked um cool cool art yeah and um and the weird thing about jarvis is he's kind of like i want on one hand the most cool person you'll ever meet in your life and he's also very vulnerable and awkward and um and And at the same time, and anyway, I, you know, in a way, it is a little bit like what we're talking about, 70s clothing.

46:05There's a kind of a sense of glamour that you've just missed out on or something, and that you can't quite join that party, you know? Yeah, because there is a feeling of poignancy about that image. You know, there she is. She's so beautiful with this blonde hair and this, you know, amazing cleavage that you can't quite see in the red she's leaning into. And yet there's a wistful feeling you get rather than just, oh, that's impossible and I'm left out of that. There's something touching and that's why it's... I remember seeing someone writing, this is sexist, instead of this is hardcore, whatever.

47:02I read in an interview that you said, no matter how good I can paint, I lack the aristocratic style of a European. And given that your style is internationally revered, whose style do you like in that respect? well i think what what i was referring to when i said that i remember saying that and what it was was i was i was um i became i still am uh my very obsessed with with with um francis picabia oh yeah and and uh you know and i then i saw i i saw a show a large show of his for the first time, a lot of his work together. And what struck me was that even when he tried to make sort of ugly paintings, and I should say also, I always loved Martin Kippenberger's paintings.

47:59Oh, yeah. But anyway, it's like he would try to be a vulgar American, and he just never could shake this beautiful, elegant, arabesque or something. You know, like, it just, he couldn't, you couldn't, there's this fantastic movie, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, where, what's his name? Michael Caine. Michael Caine is sort of teaching Steve Martin how to be a, you know, a louche European in Monaco or something like that. And it's like Steve Martin almost gets injured, you know, trying to cross his legs in a chair like a European. I don't know. It's hilarious. And, you know, in a lot of ways, Picabia, I could just see he couldn't stop being like effortlessly elegant European.

49:00And it was kind of upsetting because I realized, you know, conversely, I'll never not be a kind of blockhead American. And so that's, you know, I try to not suppress that, I guess, even though I am obsessed with European elegance and the sort of, or I'm a sucker for it. And, you know, my house is done up, you know, as Johnny Pagazzi would say, fake old, you know, by Studio Paragalli, these wonderful Italians. And, you know, so I kind of live in this like mock European house. and I love every square inch of it and and I I spent every penny I ever made to make it and but there is you know it is kind of sad you know I come home from the studio in my Amazon essentials you know clothes and and you know I I feel like I should have dressed up for my house but but I don't, you know, so, so I think a part of being, part of becoming a good painter for me was, was accepting, uh, you know, my Americanness and, and my, and, and my sort of, um, trashiness and trashy, not in a like cool, like Lou Reed way, like, like, like just cheap cheapness, like, like I'm not European and I never will be.

50:51And I, and I, And I can't really even imitate it. But in the way, you're so much more, you have so much more elegance in your house. I mean, I've been to your house and trashy is the last word I've used. I mean, it's the most magnificent. It's the most kind of awe-inspiring. And it's so generous that you bring Europe and these kind of fantasies of Europe into, I can't remember the area you live in, but it's really fun and really disarmingly beautiful. And it seems amazing to be able, in a way, I think Europeans can be kind of complacent or, you know, take for granted all these kind of curlicues or whatever it has, wherever, you know, if they're in Venice.

51:45But it's, I love what you do with it. I mean, I remember when I first, the first time I ever went to like another country was my girlfriend and I took the night train to Montreal, to the old Montreal. It was wonderful, actually. You get on this sleeper train and you wake up in another country. It was the first time I'd ever been in another country. And I was just amazed by the beautiful fire escapes outside the – they are actually very beautiful in the old Montreal. And I also went with her – I went with her then later, actually, to Europe, to Holland. And I just – even ugly buildings, I don't know.

52:32So there was something magical about them. I don't know. I, so I don't, you know, in terms of my house, it's not like I'm pretending to be a European aristocrat. It's just, it gives me joy, like, every day. I think there's more chance of a European pretending to be a European aristocrat than, well, than you. It is weird. the one thing about Europe that I find really weird is they, they seem to have never mastered electric light. Like, like they can't seem to light play, you know, it's, it's like, like you were pointing to the, that book men. So that painting on the cover, it was, it was a memory I had from the first time I went to Germany and, And we went to a, I forget where it was.

53:31I forget what city was. I guess it would have been Cologne or something. And we went to a pasta restaurant, and it was just hideous. It was just fluorescent lights and, like, icky chairs. It was weird. It was Europe, but the lighting was just so hideous. And I do find that in a lot of Europe.

54:03It'll be like a beautiful room lit so atrociously you can't have an anxiety attack being in the room. Yeah. Italy specializes in that because the food is so good and the room is sympathetic. and then it's, you know, like a factory or something. And both your parents died between 2017 and 2019, and you described losing the desire to paint pornographic imagery, and that part of you that painted these images was to make your parents uncomfortable. And you said their presence has been so enormous, the reason for me making those paintings suddenly evaporated. I think I only became conscious of that after they died.

54:53Really? Yeah. It was like, I guess I had been sort of, at the time, I didn't think it was anything as dumb as that, that I was freaking my parents out. But there was more to it. Yeah, I was in late middle age by that time. And, you know, I don't know. It revealed something to me, I guess, that they had been, I mean, of course they were a huge presence in my life and still are. But I guess it was a kind of suppressed rebellion. Yeah. And because I didn't rebel as a child. I wasn't like wild and I didn't. And I was, you know, especially with my dad because he just had me so, it would be like I'd want to go to a party and be like, well, why do you want to go?

55:59And I'd say, well, just to see. You're like, well, you know, I want to hopefully, you know, unhook a bra or something like that you know like that's my that's what I really want but I I'm embarrassed to say that's why I want to go to the party and he would sort of I it was a sort of almost like a you know almost like um darkness at noon you know like I I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm sitting you know in in a Soviet prison I I supported the regime and I can't figure out why I feel bad. I feel like, yes, I deserve to be here. Anyway, for whatever reason, I never really rebelled. And I guess it always bothered me that I didn't.

56:50And I guess there was a sort of double plus ultra secret repression of that urge that carried over into my paintings. How interesting. Did you feel like a freedom when they did die or was it just that realization more? I didn't feel freedom. Certainly didn't feel freedom. I guess I felt, I don't know. I don't know. It was... And, I mean, apart from feeling sad and all those things, of course, it was that feeling of like, wow, I'd been painting for them way more than I thought. Yeah. And I'd been painting about them much more than I had realized. uh so um and you know that they were templates that were hidden and and uh and still are and and uh you know they come to me in my dreams and and and you know and i'm more and more um you know i've become much more sort of superstitious or rather less rational um you know my dad was very um well that's the funny thing my dad was was always very anti well anti-froid to tell you the truth um and uh i think my dad was you know and and uh uh he he was so weird you know he he so in retrospect kind of strange like Like he was very, very enthusiastically, he really admired Darwin.

58:58He had a first edition that he'd spent a lot of money on, of the Voyage of the Beagle. And he really thought Darwin was something, intellectually something special. And yet he started making noises, increasingly making noises that he was somewhat skeptical of evolution. It was weird. And he was a theoretical physicist. So it wasn't like. And he understood. He had read everything of Darwin. But he would keep saying, like, the older he got, he said he would just be skeptical of it. And he really disliked, one thing that really pissed him off was when, you know, the New York Times would make fun of creationists, you know, of dumb hick creationists in Oklahoma or something.

1:00:03And he really liked knowing a lot about it. Yeah. And then, and then, and then he would play the dumb hick, you know, and, you know, and, and, uh, I guess that was, you know, my parents were both from Oklahoma. And so when we moved to, um, um, um, Stanford, Connecticut and the East coast, you know, they still had these acts, they have Oklahoma accents. so i think they got i think there was some feeling like he was kind of a hick you know and not a hick but like they weren't as sophisticated as my mom's you know these wealthier wasps that that took piano lessons for my mom and and you know my dad would always make fun of them for you know having these gigantic suvs and couldn't they couldn't do a three-point turn in our driveway way and and and the husband's always worked for like Clairol or something like that and you know or like like you'd say like he's in ladies underwear you know or or you know these men and I think that rubbed off on me also these men you know these kind of wealthy men suburban men who who have slightly humiliating jobs like their corporate jobs or their advertising jobs or they're you know, doing something that's, that's, you know, that's, although ironically, my dad was also employed as a abstractionist in a way.

1:01:34Um, so, so in what way, well, in that he dealt in, well, ultimately he dealt in reality in the most, in the most extreme form, but, But it was all abstractions. He wasn't building furniture or even painting pictures. He filled up books with Greek letters and equations and literal abstractions. And so, but I think he, but these men that were employed as managers and corporations, you know, in Stanford selling shit and, you know, I think he really didn't have much respect for it and found it very, found them clown-like. And I guess I inherited that a little bit too. I suppose they're quite easy targets.

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1:04:59I sat next to you once at dinner and you told me about a conversation you'd had with my father, Lucian. I wondered what you talked about.

1:05:11Well, honestly, it was very loud. it was funny it's a funny story i i i i think i told you is you told me but i rachel and i rachel and i were were i was having an opening at sadie cole's and rachel and i were just like sort of luxuriating at the hotel you know and and having a drink and and and it was a little bit after the beginning of the opening and sadie calls calls and says get your asses over here lucian freud's here and and so i i you know oh shit you know so we kind of ran and um i was more starstruck the the truth is i don't quite remember what we talked about because i was very starstruck um to be to see him and to be talking to and that he's talking to me and then and that he's at my show it was he he gave me some compliments but i on on on a couple of paintings but i was i was so uh starstruck that i that i that i the truth is i don't think i had a meaningful conversation with him it was more i was just more like i can't believe i'm talking to lucian freud he was quite hard to talk to because he was quite shy so when you said that I was so excited about the idea of you both talking and talking to each other and and I remember you said he'd paid you some compliments which he certainly didn't do without meaning them and being completely sincere and it was it was it was well it was too it was too chaotic uh and allowed a scene to um to to have a a meaningful conversation it was just i had thought about this guy you know more or less non-stop um um for most of my adult life and and so uh there was a beautiful when i went when i went to Carnegie Mellon University there was a it's still there a very beautiful um very early uh Freud small painting of a of a Greek of a bust of a Greek bust from the from the period of the of the of the zebras although there was no zebra in this one and it and I just remember the the weird just a strange, very unusual cubism of the Greek bust.

1:07:46It was Picasso, but it wasn't anything like Picasso. And it's just a gorgeous painting. And so I've always, and he wasn't, he wasn't, back in the, this would have been in the, well, yeah, this would have been like 1980 or 1981. He wasn't as hugely famous then, at least to art students and things. No, he didn't. As he became. Yeah. But I loved that painting. And then I would just see the pictures and books and things. And so anyway, it was just, you know, and I also knew his face from the Francis Bacon portraits, from Francis Bacon's portraits of him. Yeah. And it was a little bit like, to return to a point I was making earlier, it would almost be like I was having a conversation with Clint Eastwood or something.

1:08:50Yeah. I remember when I was a kid, I was in Vail, Colorado, because my uncle had a place there, and we'd go there for the summer. And I saw Clint Eastwood. It was like, Clint Eastwood was standing like 80 feet away with some people. And it was the first time I'd ever seen a celebrity. and it was just, I still remember, it was just, it just, so in a way it was a little bit like an experience like that. Actually, I meant to say that when I first saw that El Greco painting, it reminded me of having seen Clint Eastwood. It was a similar feeling to seeing Clint Eastwood. Yeah. And so. That's wonderful.

1:09:44So I'm sorry. I certainly didn't say anything smart or anything. Because he would be so hyper, kind of tense and alert. He didn't talk that much. He didn't go out that much. So he must have really liked the whole thing to be there and to say those things to you. It's a nice thing to hold in my thoughts. It certainly is for me. I can sort of just picture him. You know, when he did talk, he would sort of go in and out of, he would sort of say something and then almost step back. Oh, it sounds so pretentious. But it was like his adrenaline was, he'd say a few things and then stop and look down and then come back with the rest of what was in his head.

1:10:47I do remember that. Because you said your wife Rachel's face is always present in your images because she's your ideal of an ideal woman. And it's just somehow, it's not that she's, I mean, with Rachel, it's, for some reason, her face just comes out of my hand. You know, it's a little bit like, I always loved, I always loved Lucas Kranach because I love that woman that he makes over and over again. that little sort of pointy-chinned, sharp-eyed, kind of snake-eyed, or not snake-eyed, you know what I mean, but like a sort of slit-eyed blonde woman. And I guess with Rachel, you know, she has these like gigantic eyes that droop.

1:11:52Actually, they're not like cat eyes. They're not like Audrey Hepburn eyes. They're a little bit awkward. And these big llama eyelashes and heavy eyebrows and this very long nose. Anyway, I don't know. I just found her easy to draw. I was thinking she's a bit like a composite of some of your favorite painters, like with her Botticelli hair and her face has some dura and then she has this amazing crannic body and then she has this some Robert Crumb sexiness and attitude. She's also kind of awkward and in a really touching way, I think, And, you know, I think mainly is Rachel has an open face and open.

1:13:02I'm interested in other women's faces, and I'm interested in different bodies. I'm interested in a different look. But there's something, I don't know. But there's always some kind of Rachel-ness in any kind of, even or especially in the grotesque women, there's Rachel's in those too. And so, I mean, I would hope that people would feel in the images of mine that might be read as misogynist or is I feel tenderness toward those figures. Yeah, that seems to come across a lot, I think. I don't really feel scorn. And I hope that doesn't sound disingenuous, but I feel tenderness toward them, and I'm trying to express tenderness.

1:14:14Do you ever choose clothes for her to wear with your brilliant eye? I always have to say, listen, Rachel, I'm not gay, but I really think a wider belt would, would, would be better. You know, I really think the, you know, and I'll, I'll do some sort of fake, fake stylist type things, but, but, but she's always, she's, she's all, it's always been a sort of running argument, you know, she wants to wear something i don't like it and but she'll wear it anyway you know and and uh you know because i've always been a bit of a jerk about i don't do it as much now but i but i but i but i i was really treating her a little bit like a doll you know for a while i think i mean this sounds so shallow but i you know it gives me so much joy to look at her that uh you know uh Oh, that sounds fun.

1:15:21I mean, I can't think of anything better myself, but. Oh, I think it's pretty irritating sometimes. It's really like. I only ever had one boyfriend in my life who was that specific about, you know, the wider belt. That's really, that's niche. That's good. It drives me crazy. And the one thing I'm always, it drives me crazy is that it seems to be very hard to find a tailored shirt, like a tailored white shirt. Like one that has a waist that just, that breaks over the hips, you know, a few inches and just does a slight. it's she seems to only have shirts that stop that that stop at you know just below the the belly button and and and create a rectangle and i just it drives me crazy i was like like isn't i don't know i i i i that's one of my peeves and she's so sick of hearing me talk about it i said well you know what would look good she's like how's i said it'd be nice if you had a white shirt it was like it's like you know i don't john so and if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing does it kill your attraction it doesn't kill my attraction it just but it but it uh but it just i find the white shirt problem conundrum the most frustrating i think darts are out of fashion these days so people make these short shirts or longer but less fitted but uh because your new paintings show women with benign and friendly expressions and they're standing unselfconsciously but with these gigantic breasts and they're they're so vast they seem to be bearing down on the on on the viewer and the women in in these paintings are older and And they have that thing from the 70s of wearing something that's unwittingly revealing.

1:17:35Because you talked earlier about the view of adults from children. And was this your view of adults when you were a child? um i think maybe uh it's not that i had that view of of i think it's i think for me it's a metaphor for some reason that's a persistent image in my in my in my work i have a i have a drawing i made in like 1986 of of that same exact woman it's and it's i guess it was um without analyzing it to as symbol too much i i i i think it was just again this idea of a misunderstand a child's misunderstanding of sex or of of or a sexiness or of um or of women i guess you know and um and also like um a misunderstanding of abundance or of um you know of wealth or of or of any of those kind of things and and so uh these were mostly you know instinctive things you know just kind of the best ones were were were made from i would make these you know i'd flip pages through these catalogs and i'd something would get me about one and so i'd make these drawings very very quick millions of them and and so some of them and some of them it just so it's really not thought out i i think but but i do think that the the the in all the cases their their actual sex their their their their crotch you know if it's revealed is is um is presented as as real as as um as natural and real.

1:19:38And, uh, so I think there's something going on there between, um, constructed sex or imagined, imagined sex and, and then the, and actual, and the actual sex. And, and, uh, you know, and so much of it is just the, the opportunity that those crazy looking breasts give you for overlaps and, you know, formal things actually in the painting. And so... How do you mean formal? Like it'll overlap the other woman and then her arm will come out from underneath and overlap here and you'll have this kind of, again, I guess a kind of a ham-fisted American version of a beautiful European arabesque. or a manneristic intertwining of figures.

1:20:36I think it's actually in the National Gallery. There's a painting by, damn it, what's his name again? Mabuse. Oh, yeah. It's an Adam and Eve where their legs are tied in a kind of square knot. It's a really amazing painting.

1:21:00Sorry, I'm blanking out on his name. No, I mean, you've got some. Anyhow, it's these beautiful constructions that these artists would make. And in my case, I like that it's made from a kind of a grotesque social, that it's very unnatural and it refers to modern life or blah, blah, blah. I like that it's awkward and it kind of ruins the chance for the painting to ever be in good taste. But there's something so tender about them. I really like them. Thank you. It's meant to be. Believe it or not, it is meant to be tender. Yeah, well, that comes through very much. Because when I saw the first painting of the, and it's like, what's going on with these crazy breasts?

1:22:05But they reminded me of my teacher when I was six. She had this enormous self and she was so intelligent, kind and dignified. And I like the expressions. There's this kind of camaraderie and this friendliness between the women who were the portraits of two women together. And then these gigantic breasts which somehow seem like, I don't know, they just seem touching and comforting and weirdly normal in a kind of outlandish way. I think also it's a kind of, I think one way I've thought about it in the past is like the presence of my uncontrollable eye. Like I stared at it and it got bigger as a result of me staring at it.

1:23:05And I made a few of these paintings 10 years ago of sort of fish eye, a convex mirror paintings of a woman's butt, a nude woman, and her butt becomes this gigantic circle, almost filling the round canvas. And to me it was like partly on a mental level, It was a kind of a parody of that essay you had to read in college of, forget her name, Laura Mulvey, The Gaze, the male gaze, and this objectifying gaze. And I thought of it as a kind of like my eye is changing what it's looking at and making it. And there's part of that in the breasts. Like I looked at it too long and they started, it was like putting a ultraviolet lamp on a marijuana plant or something.

1:24:13And I should also say the imagery had showed up in my work before then. But I did see something in the early 90s. I saw, it was something by the German dance, damn it, what's her name? beautiful, surrealistic dances. Yeah. Piena Bausch. Piena Bausch, exactly. And it was a Piena Bausch thing. And at one point, there's this very tall, older woman comes striding out in a long dress with gigantic breasts, like basketball -sized breasts under this long, I think it was a dark dress. and she had a very severe angry face. And I remember just that was a spectacular and terrifying image

1:25:17of, I don't know, a big combination of aggression and vulnerability and sort of evil and good. And I don't know, it was a really complex image. And it reminded me also of another image that stuck with me from around that time was I saw a, do you know who Dennis Potter was? Yes, God, very much. So it was a, I loved, it kind of blew my mind when I first saw his things in 1980. Is that Pennies from Heaven? Pennies from Heaven was the first thing, the BBC one. And I also saw the Steve Martin one. And then, but this was called You're the Cream in My Coffee. And it was like a three-part TV thing. And it was in his style.

1:26:20Anyway, this guy, his mother, he has a domineering mother. And the way she was photographed, it was terrifying. I remember just that woman in that TV show. And I haven't seen it since. But it just really stuck with me. She was also wearing something dark. She was wealthy. She's in a fancy house. And she's talking on the phone, admonishing her grown son. And that image also just burned something into my brain. And so that woman, the Pina Bausch lady, I don't know. There's some of that in the big breast sort of, you know, it's also an image of authority I guess and and and and a kind of you know I don't really think I don't really think about the symbol so much it just I just I enjoy that it that it I enjoy and accept that it that it persists yeah I guess well I really like them I'm looking forward to seeing them later thank Thank you so much for being on Fashion Neurosis, John Curran.

1:27:46It's so great to have you here. Thank you so much. There's something magic about lying down. I've never done it before. Yeah. No, there seems to be some. I had no idea, but it seems like there is something magical. Every now and then I lie down for a few seconds and think, oh my god I'm just going to go somewhere else or I won't be able to come back from. This reminds me of those New Yorker cartoons you know there's like a goateed shrink you know and there's the person's on the couch and always his diploma is like his like diploma from medical psychiatry school you know is on the I just I love that that scenario you know.

1:28:35I love those cartoons. They're fantastic. Well, thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you for having me here.

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