Martine Syms

38:47But the funniest night to me, which I sort of immortalized in B-Zone, was we did what I've come to learn was an exercise. But at the time, I think, yeah, I was 12 or 13. I didn't know what we were doing, but we were split up into racial groups. Although there was like a few categories that would be questionable these days. You know, there was kind of like an other group and like a mixed group. And anyway, and you were supposed to say like one thing, one stereotype about your group and then one stereotype about another group. And that kind of passed it on to that group. But obviously there was no like facilitators.

39:32It was like Tyra Banks leading this. And it got really heated really quickly. And like everyone was crying and upset. And even when they were describing the rules, I remember being like, this seems like a bad idea. Yeah. A very bad idea. But it stuck with me. And I made a video about it. So it was fun. Yeah, we had a media day, too. A day where all this press came. We got a lot of free shit, like bags and makeup and books. And, like, you know, we were all – I kept joking that I was going to pretend I was poor because that was what it seemed like they wanted you to do. All the girls were mostly middle class, but it seemed very, like, the way the reporters were talking to us.

40:25And – They wanted some tragedy. Yeah, they wanted some tragedy, and I was happy to give it to them. I liked lying. I liked – I loved lying. I lied a lot as a kid. I was like, yeah, what? Yes, it's been really hard. Yeah, I'm a single mom. Whatever, whatever would come to my mind. But then for kind of a while afterwards, we would have these meetups. Like we went to WNBA games. We went. And I went to her first taping of her show, which was really weird. Will Smith was on it. And I was seated in the front row. He kept staring at me. I think he was just choosing a focal point. But I just remember the whole time being like, I just keep staring at Will Smith.

41:24But yeah, it was fun. I have a lot of funny photos from that time. Yeah. because you've directed fashion campaigns for Louis Vuitton Prada and you described Mrs. Prada as chill and then you said okay maybe not chill but I'm not chill either and you said Mrs. Prada was like oh you're a Taurus me too and it sounded like quite a tender thing for her to say and how important are star signs to you and do you use any of the apps like co-star or the pattern oh i'm so deep into astrology i can't i can't do the pop astrology i use an app called time passages oh where i have everyone's chart all my friends charts and everything and i look at my transits and yeah i mean i love mrs brada And she's fab.

42:25She's amazing. But she was like, when we had this convo, it was on Zoom, but she was in this very like, oh, my God. It's a Kubrick film, but now I'm blanking on it. Where there's a big table. There's a big table around. It was very like United Nations, but just me and her talking. which is the dr strange yes dr strange love exactly dr strange love that was what it felt like like i was like she was in a dr strange love room and i was in my studio but when she recognized my taurian nature i think she understood the chill not chill yeah you know That's the Taurus, basically. It's always both of them.

43:22Yeah. My moon is in Taurus. What are your three? What are your three? I'm Aries with moon in Taurus and Leo rising. Oh, I'm also Leo rising. Oh, great. So it's good you do this show, you know, because the struggle of Leo rising, is that they're supposed to be in the spotlight, but often when they're the rising, they don't like it. Yes. So I've been trying to – I had a really great reading with this – I call him an Irish druid whose name's Andrew.

44:08He's amazing, though. But he was like, really like, I have to lean into the sun. And I have to lean into the Leo more. So I've been trying. That was actually what kicked off my podcast era. Really? Yeah. Yeah. His encouragement that I have to just do it. It's kind of exciting when someone encourages. My shrink encourages me in that respect to be more visible. but I don't know which of the other star signs are trying to encourage my hiding out, which is my kind of instant position, like be on the side or the best friend of. Yeah. It could be also the placement. I'm like, now I want to look at your chart.

45:01I will do that later. Yes, I can't wait. I mean, I'm not really, I say I'm not into star signs, but in the end, anything that's any kind of communication thread is great. And I love it when someone just throws it out there. Yeah. I find it's like a useful framework, you know. I don't, like, trust it blindly, but I do always find it funny when someone's so, like, against it. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, okay, okay. Also, it's silly in a kind of really sympathetic way. And then I find I have things like loads of Scorpios in my life I love. especially men my son my ex-husband my boyfriend my first love yeah scorpios are sexy yeah i have i have that with aquarius everyone i've ever been in love with has been an aquarius really yeah i don't with the way the taurus and aquarius kind of like inverted but yeah i'm drawn to them Sometimes I'm like, before I even know, I'm just like, if I feel that strong pull, I'm like, you're an Aquarius, aren't you?

46:25Oh, God. I'll never get that right. Yeah. I love the photograph taken of you by Hedy Slimane. And I wondered, did he ask you any questions? He's quite known to be a silent person. Yeah. We ended up talking about cameras, actually. Yeah. and like why he likes black and white, which kind of maybe to our Arbus was about it being, he didn't use this word, but other world, you know, like different than how we're seeing stuff and the contrast. And I'm always very nosy about what cameras people are using. so I'm very like I'm just laughing as I was thinking about years ago Frank Ocean was doing his like tour Spike Jones was directing it and I was like really keyed into all the cameras and the show I thought it looked so good and then like immediately I didn't know Spike was directing it but right after backstage he was the first person I ran into and I was like of course you directed this and then I was like what cameras are you using and he showed me like his list his set list with all the cameras and I was like okay taking a photo of that I'm just nosy in that way I mean so yeah we talked a lot about cameras and shooting and I like I like it's similar to directing you know it's like I've shadowed for a few people but you kind of just have to do it.

48:08You don't get that much practice. You practice by doing it. And talking with people and I'm not the most, I am not that gregarious. So it's like when I'm shooting people, I think that's why I love a zoom lens. I don't necessarily want to go up and have this whole conversation. so I like to know how different people approach it and approach their subjects yeah it's like a recipe isn't it it's so much vital information so fascinating so like any good millennial I have a love-hate relationship with Gen Z it's the phenomenon rattling millennials they just look at you they want something bigger themselves Lifestyle is a priority.

49:01Motivation is being inspired. But regardless of how you feel about Gen Z, it's undeniable that they're changing national politics. Generation Z is increasingly showing less loyalty to traditional political parties, many now more likely to identify as independent. So what is going on with the kids? I think the biggest misconception about Gen Z's politics right now is that all of a sudden they're all socialists. That is just not the case. They are embracing candidates who are offering new, bold ideas in the absence of those ideas from establishment Democrats. This week on America Actually, Gen Z researcher Rachel Jamfaza joins us to separate Gen Z fact versus fiction.

49:41It's not rocket science. And this is, you know, I keep saying like young voters aren't that complicated. After all, it's pretty simple. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Is the U.S. military facing a leadership crisis? It would be an obligation on the part of Secretary Hegseth and President Trump to say, look, here's why these officers didn't meet our standards. And it can't be because they were politically aligned with somebody they didn't like. I'm John Feiner. And I'm Jake Sullivan. And we're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast.

50:16This week, Admiral Bill McRaven joins us to reflect on the 25th anniversary of 9-11 and what the firings and resignations of senior military leaders mean for the armed forces. Search for and follow The Long Game wherever you get your podcasts. And you collaborated twice with PAM, Perks and Mini, and on capsule collections. And you use a lot of words on your garments, like to hell with my suffering, and don't ask me shit. Are there any words you prefer to wear rather than speaking? Yeah, I love, although I'm leaning out of it now, but I often like a statement shirt. The Tell With My Suffering is kind of a recurring one in my work, and it's from a Rimbaud poem, May Banners.

51:18That's kind of about like honestly just enjoying the small things in life and saying fuck it about all the rest of it. And it was actually part of my horoscope. That's how I just thought about that. That's how I found that poem. So it was Rob Bresney, Free Will Astrology, a West Coast legend. It was in a Taurus horoscope at one point that it was like, Taurus, you need to embrace this. To hell with your suffering, blah, blah, blah. And I think maybe that's why I relate to the Book of Job. I can get very like, why me? I'm being punished. I'm being punished by the gods right now, which probably led me down the path I'm on in good ways.

52:19But that's where that came from. And then, yeah, Pam, I've known them for a long time. We lived in Paris at the same time, though I kind of knew them. We really have all these Australian friends. I don't know why or how. so yeah we did I think we did three I think we did three capsules yeah um and a lot of it I repurposed other artworks that had text in them or documentation of it and I think most of the time I'd like I just love it when you're walking through the street or like in New York you know when someone has this like graphic on the back of their shirt and I like I love bootlegs I love mistranslations of stuff like I think yeah like the alley that I mentioned I used to have a studio over there signage like street signage I was a very early reader and I would read all the signs and so I feel like that kind of it's like a sign to me yeah yeah yeah I find that I love I love a protest because the things that you sometimes see people are wearing are so distilled and it's so powerful and sometimes when you walk down the street and you see someone in something and they you just have an exchange yeah look and you know everything and I love that me too it's fun tears because you you um visited Walter de Maria's lightning field yeah which I've always wanted a I heard about that like some decades ago and thought about it so much and And then when I saw that you'd visited and in your talk at Deer, is it pronounced Deer?

54:22In your talk at Deer, you said that you told your shrink that you identified with the rod and not with the lightning. Yeah. And I thought that seemed like a good sign. I wondered what you were thinking. Yeah, I was really taken by the rods and also just that it was kind of a bucket list thing for me. I think I went for my 37th birth? No, 36, something like that. It was a birthday present, though, that a friend took me as a birthday gift. And so my birthday was like over the course of the time we were there. And it was so beautiful, especially like the sunset. The sunrise and the sunset is like one of the most dramatic things I've ever seen where one side is totally dark and then one side is still day.

55:26And because of how far out it is, there's no light pollution, all the stars. Everything is so vivid. And I just kept walking the path at different times of the day. And the ways that they're altered are kind of like optical to keep it, to make it look straight, like you could put a piece of paper on it. Yeah, I just kept thinking about the rods. Also, I really wanted to go during lightning season. Yeah. And we were there during lightning season. But the caretaker who drove us out had been the same caretaker since the start of the project before it was even finished. And he was like, I was really trying to chat with him.

56:10I think because he didn't want to chat. But I was like, this man knows so much. He must tell me. So I was asking him a lot of questions because I was up in the front with him. And I was asking him about the lightning. And he was kind of like, it's very rare for there to be lightning. And I was like, oh, it's like conceptual. You know, like the lightning is kind of like in your head. And like when you're walking around it, I mean, it does happen sometimes, but it doesn't take away any of the beauty. It didn't feel any less that there was no lightning. So I think that's kind of part of what I was thinking about of like the kind of potentiality that's in sculpture.

56:53and they disappear over the course of the day because of the way the light is. And then, yeah, my shrink was like, why is it that you identify with the rod and not the lightning? And I was like, I don't know. It's quite Taurus, the rod, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I was like, I don't know. Didn't even really think about it. I probably was like, the lightning's conceptual, man. It's a good idea, though, because, I mean, all I know is such an incredible idea, a lightning field. Yeah. It's like a sort of sacrifice that you go to sacrifice yourself on the off chance. But clearly that doesn't happen very often.

57:39Yeah, it's really beautiful. I highly recommend it. Yeah, I'd love to go. There's a line from your film, The African Desperate, in which the main character says, I'm attracted to that that disgusts me. I mean, and I wonder, are you attracted to things that disgust you? Definitely.

58:05I'm trying to be less attracted to it. But another thing my shrink said to me recently is that I suffer fools because I find it amusing, to be honest. I love a weird scene. I like to see things play out. I'm a curious cat. But another, I mean, you're catching the five, but another psychic of mine was like, you have to stop entertaining this. Next time you're bored, watch a fucking movie. and I've been trying to take that in stride but yeah I find I mean repulsion is sort of attraction yeah yeah I agree it's interesting yeah and also what starts off as being repellent can sometimes not be repellent when you allow it it just becomes part of something else and it's it's not so kind of such a threat yeah now that's a good point you kind of neutralize it or humanize it yeah yeah i read that you said narcissism is very important to an artist and i don't think you can even start to be an artist if you're not somewhat narcissistic And I wondered why narcissistic rather than very selfish?

59:41Hmm. I remember that. That was GQ because they made it a big headline. That was like, be a narcissist. Why did I say that? What was I thinking? Well, I do think it's like, you know, there's a spectrum of narcissism. I think it's become one of those overused, like, gaslight, like, pop psychology terms. But I think because sometimes I think about the studio as, like, almost like this space of shame where you're just, like, sitting in there. You know, it can be other things, too, but sometimes you're just, like, stupid, stupid, stupid. But also, like, I don't know, you kind of have to work through all that to, like, get to something.

1:00:34And the pursuit of, like, doing that, because it is kind of a journey of self-knowledge or self in some ways, can be a bit narcissistic, you know. Or, like, I have friends. I'm thinking of one friend in particular who's always like, you just disappear before you have a show. Like you're gone. No one hears from you. No one does that, which I guess could be selfish too, but I don't think they're mutually exclusive. But I think the specific, like, looking, you know, looking into the pond, contemplating, looking into your blank canvas or, like, whatever you're working on, blank page, there's a bit of narcissism just to think that anyone else would care, which I think you need.

1:01:28I think you need a healthy dose of it. Yeah, yeah. Because you have to make people care about it. But yeah, just to think someone's going to care what I'm writing or doing right now. Yeah, it's a little silly. Then I suppose narcissism has so many, I mean, I don't really know much about it, except for everyone uses it now. but it always seems to suggest that it's selfishness without noticing the expense or the tax on someone else or some people close to you. And my father was pretty selfish about his art, and he said, art is selfish, and I have to put it before anything else. but he seemed aware that he was selfish and he didn't make up for it.

1:02:24Yeah, that there's consequences to it. Sometimes I think about that. Yeah. Yeah, I am making a choice often to be in my studio or working on something rather than doing other things. And, yeah, it can have consequences. is, you know, same as like musician friends. It's like being on tour all the time. You don't see people as much or you don't see the same people as much. And I do think that's part of being an artist. You know, it's one of the, I don't know, constraints. Yeah. It's one of the conditions in some ways. You just have to be spending a lot of time in your studio, whatever form that takes.

1:03:08But, yeah, I think narcissism is also – I do think there are a lot of, like, true narcissists in our world as well, though, let me be clear. But I think part of that is turning everything into being about you. Yeah. That, like, not being aware that – Some people really don't care what you're doing. Yeah. And their reaction may have nothing to do with you. But I think, yeah, on the spectrum, thankfully I'm not that type. No. Just a bit selfish, just a bit focused. I do agree my art is kind of the priority in my life. But that seems like a good thing because there's so many assaults on, you know, distracting you, one from making something, everything, you know, hoovering, eating a nut, you know, just anything but getting down to it.

1:04:28So I think it's a great thing to be selfish in the cause of something. Yeah. I can't imagine not doing it at this point, like the practice side of it at least. Yeah. Yeah. And you said I've always been very particular about the way I dress. And where do you start with an outfit?

1:05:01Well, I can be very obsessive about articles of clothing. They become almost like, I don't know, they're the only thing that feels comfortable to me. I think part of that is I can have really extreme body dysmorphia. And they'll be like, okay, this feels good. this I like to wear I like the fabric I like the cut um which has nothing necessarily do with like it being flattering or anything like that it's just there's something about the garment that I like and I'll wear it over and over and over again and then so if I'm in that kind of like groove that's our starting point right but I really enjoy getting dressed and sometimes I joke that the more depressed I am the more nice I look yeah and so I can relate that I kind of just I don't know I really try on a million clothes like way too many clothes every morning like throwing stuff not that until I feel I genuinely feel kind of like a like click yeah like okay that's it today but sometimes I crack myself up I'll have like such a huge pile I'm like you're not even going anywhere i mean like today did you start with the boot or because it's such a an immaculate outfit it's so beautiful how you've put this look together and i'm like where did she start you could have started anywhere it's so i started with the shirt because yeah this is my go-to shirt right now and if I'm somewhere I don't I actually never wear a bra really except for style reasons yeah yeah I only wear it for fashion the day-to-day I never ever wear a bra I just I stopped on a while ago and I don't care I feel fine sometimes you want the silhouette you know but otherwise no um but i was like so sometimes if i don't want this to be so exposed i turn it around oh yeah so my the heart's on my back which is also a fun parting thing leaving somewhere that's lovely um and then i tried on a bunch of outfits with some friends And kind of like before I go do a show, I will do like a style out.

1:07:40What a good. Just so I know I have a sense of like what I want to wear to the things I'm going to and the dinner and the opening and that kind of thing.

1:07:54Yeah, it's kind of like one of those procrastination but like essential tasks to being like I'm in the show. And so, yeah, I knew I wanted to show my legs. But I'm wearing a lot of shorts because it's summer. But then this was the skirt that everyone liked. And I hadn't worn this one in a while, but I used to wear this skirt a lot too. And because Prada has great skirts. I have another, like, knee length wool, not the nylon. But it's perfect. It's so wearable. and then I was going to wear maybe these red heels that felt like too much red and maybe too much Prada though I do love Prada I wear a lot of it but then I changed into like six other outfits and then I came back to this I was like maybe I want to be more business so I put on some trousers I love a suit also because it's you look really nice but you're so comfortable you're basically wearing sweatpants so i was like oh maybe i want to be more cozy and like warm but and then i had this vikera shirt that's kind of like cone boobs like madonna style oh wow so i was just going through a few things and then ultimately i came back to the first choice yeah I was like yeah this is right this is right yeah don't shake it and if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing does it kill your attraction oh it's so hard it's so hard yes it's really I think of two I think of two very specific instances one although I will say I've always been a flip-flop hater, but I've embraced it this year.

1:09:54This year, I've been wearing the square toe Javianas around the neighborhood, around the Upper West Side, as I walk in the dog, and I feel so free. I'm like, oh, this is what everyone's talking about, but I've always been uh not into germs so i could never do it but i'm medicated i'm in a good place i finally felt the freedom of a flip-flop the square toe i didn't know that yeah the square toe javianas are where it's at okay um need to go there but i yeah there's one guy who i was kind of like, I mean, he had a real blown out portion of our romance. But essentially, I had made out, not even made out, a kiss.

1:10:45We shared a kiss at a party and then hadn't talked in like five or six years and then reconnected. I didn't even know his name or anything at this party. Anyway, when we reconnected, it was cute. It was like a fun little moment. We had breakfast. and then like he came over he cooked breakfast it was cute then the next day I ran into him at a gallery I could hear his voice when I walked in and I was like how weird I've never seen him at any gallery or anything and this was one I was right by my studio so I was like how odd and then I walked in and he was wearing these flip-flops and his toes were so disgusting and it really just I feel it was God.

1:11:35It was God saying, no, Martine. No. And it did. It shut down. I couldn't look back. Then another person who was a writer that I was kind of into, I hung out with him and he came and he was wearing a, very ill-fitting blazer, terrible color, terrible fabric, over like a hoodie. And yeah, I'm sounding so judgmental, but I am. Yes. So I can't lie. Turned off. I was, it's really turned off. I was like, wow, that's how you dress. That's insane. but it's only when people try and fail. I think if you just are like, I don't care about clothes, then it wouldn't give me the ick as much. Yeah, yeah. It's such a strange thing how sometimes there it is and it doesn't matter and sometimes it's like a switch that there's no turning back from.

1:12:52It's fascinating. Yeah. And if you do override it, which I have done in the past, it always has terrible consequences. It's like it comes back to haunt you to say, you should have paid attention when you thought you had to close. I remember someone opening the door and this guy I was seeing was the worst outfit. It was like he was in the chorus of a pantomime. And I just wanted to shut the door immediately. Yes, yes. I just didn't anyway. I've had that feeling, certainly, especially when I was like in my tender days. I've definitely rounded a corner and saw the person before they saw me and been like, would it be terrible if I just ran away?

1:13:47But I'm very good at leaving situations. That's one of my strong suits. When I got to go, I got to go. Yeah, that's really good. I just, I don't have, maybe from all my years of church, that used up all my stamina. That's an interesting notion. Well, that's where you learn to have a cutoff point. Yeah. So now if I have that feeling, I'm like, I got to get out of here. Yeah. Yeah. And you've got an exhibition opening at Sadie Cole's gallery here in London with a piece that I really love called Relo. And it seemed to me almost like an episode of a miniseries, though through such an eccentric lens about the values of the characters in it.

1:14:42And there's a moment at the start of the film where the 14-year-old boy is responding to a questionnaire. And one of the things he says is, I'm also a follower and not a leader. And it's quite a striking thing to know about himself. And he also says sex is not important to him to have in the near future. And what's the message? That is actually his real answers from his real questionnaires applying to be part of the real world. And the film is based on kind of an anecdote I knew for a long time from one of my best friends, Brent David Freeney, who he works with a lot of musicians. Like he's working with Madonna right now on Hall Confessions 2.

1:15:38Oh, wow. But he's a lifelong pop stan. And we shared a studio for a long time in Los Angeles. And our first kind of bonding was over the real world. We had both been like really big fans of the show. And they used to make these books after every season. And we both had like our books when we moved into the studio. Oh, wow. From when we were like kids. And I was like, oh, you liked that? I liked that. What season was your favorite season? This and that. And he kind of revealed that he was still friends with one of the cast members. And then like one of my favorites, which is Melissa Beck, Nay Howard.

1:16:25She was in New Orleans season nine.

1:16:33And years later, I kind of found out his mom was digitizing footage during COVID and sent him a video of them going to the real world house. And like the first part of it actually, though, was just him receiving a letter from Melissa. Yeah. So I knew they had become pen pals and that they were still friends and this kind of thing, but I didn't know the whole story. And his mom sent this clip that was like seven minutes of him freaking out receiving this letter. And as soon as I saw it, I was just like, oh, I want to make this as a film. It's kind of like perfect cinema. And it took a minute. Normally I use material from my own life of where it intersects with history and sort of pop culture.

1:17:30Or where it mimics or repeats something that I may have seen on TV or in a movie. You know, I'm kind of interested in those as like ways we learn, things we copy. And images that we're obsessed with or I was obsessed with. And so it took a while to work on them to get them to let me do it. I had to kind of like build the case. But a couple, you know, we went to New Orleans to visit. He kind of drove me around. We had grown up. He hadn't really been back much. He moved during Katrina. So all his family moved. So we, like, took a trip, kind of a research trip. And, like, I was just talking to him.

1:18:19And we were going to the house. and his mom found more footage of them actually driving to go, like, scope the house out. Yeah, it was so good. Yeah, I started to just, like, put it together from there and, like, work on the script and work on the story and being in New Orleans. You know, I love going to a friend's hometown with them and kind of getting that kind of tour. It's always really insightful and things that they wouldn't tell you, not out of omission, but just out of forgetting or not thinking about when you're in that space when it comes to life. And I think a lot of the ways I shoot is very site-specific.

1:19:03It's important for me to kind of like immediately go to the place and put myself there and see who I'll meet and talk to and work with. Yeah, it was really fun. We shot earlier this year in New Orleans, and it was great. I love it there. It's a great city and a lot of talented people. So it's fun. And working with Melissa, hearing her perspective on what it was. So it's kind of a nice loop in a way because my thesis project for college was actually about the real world. Really? Yeah. That was, you know, 20 years ago. Before I, I hadn't really made the link until I finished the project. But I was like, oh, how crazy.

1:19:54I'm like circled back. Yeah, it's really good. There's so many moments. Like when you're talking about the site specific and when the way you film the house, it's like we're suddenly seeing an ancient temple. Yeah. And the lighting. And then when he says towards the end where he says, I need this, I crave this. And it's like, oh, my God, whatever. It could be about anything, but it's so passionate and it's so striking the way he's not interested in sex, but all his craving and need is being in this real world or somehow being affected by it. Yeah. I think it's like Eros still, you know, that desire.

1:20:53Yeah. And through this person who in some ways he became, it became his target because that was the person he saw on the news. Like when he saw the news segment they were shooting. But it could have been anybody in some way, you know. But she became this projection, this kind of figurehead of how he wanted to live. Yeah. And I think that that was the interesting thread between the two of them. Because when I talked to her, she was like in a similar place a few years before to Brent. And even when they interacted, you know, she was only 21, I think. And she had moved from kind of a smaller town in the South.

1:21:46and she thought it was going to be this freedom and that was kind of what was marketed or like told to them and I think that's what Brent keyed into as well because he talks about he's told me that like once he was able to make contact with her he felt like he could do anything and it was like a year or two later he was in LA you know because she had moved to LA so that was the place to go and it kind of it kind of like set him on this path and I think yeah it's been interesting to talk to her about her own experience about it especially because it was before I mean reality tv now is such a it's everything you know it completely changed so it was fun it was fun and really interesting just thinking about that moment because that was before survivors before reality TV was a category.

1:22:43And there's so many weird threads. But yeah, it's a cool, I'm really happy with the way it turned out. And even the making of it being period, I was working with this young actor and he didn't know how to flip a magazine, which really, he was crazy. I was like you know we used to like get a magazine and before you like scoured every page you would just kind of like flip through it and then I was like flipping through it and I show it to him and then I'm like okay here and then he couldn't really like do the fan and I had to keep showing it to him and then he was like what's this half weird half page and I was like oh those were like perfumes perfumes and business ads and but everybody was like he was like oh I've never really seen a magazine god that's like this is crazy Darwin is like sped up yeah he was like where did you get all these old magazines I was like they're mine oh my god they're my collection well it's a brilliant piece I can't wait to see it in in the gallery thank you yeah it'll also be at London Film Festival oh great really I look forward to that thank you so much Martine Sims for being on Fashion Neurosis it's been amazing to talk to you yeah this has been so great thank you so much

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