RERUN: Rick Owens

0:08Hi, come in.

0:14Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Rick Owens. Thank you so much for being on the couch. It's my pleasure. Could I ask you why you chose what you're wearing today? Oh, I like a uniform. I just turned 62. Somewhere inside me, I'm still the flamboyant 19-year-old, but I feel like I need to have a little bit more dignity. The other thing is, I think when your face changes as you get older, the lines and the creases, is I think they can get a little messy if your clothes are too messy, and you need to kind of set it off with something a little bit more tailored. I totally agree with that. I think I used to wear a lot of vintage, but as I've become more vintage, I don't want to look like the old clothes.

1:13So I'm right with you. And then I always wear the heels when I go out because it's my protest. It's kind of my protest against judgment and judgment in general. It's kind of to mock the judgment that we're all subject to. It's so pervasive right now. It's always been there, of course. But now with online criticism, that kind of judgment is just such an overwhelming wave that I kind of feel that I have to promote my values, which have always been about that I want to be the guy that provides options to our standard aesthetics, which can be kind of narrow and sometimes cruel. And I mean, I keep repeating this, but I feel like that's kind of become the role that I want to have.

2:16I want to be somebody that champions alternative aesthetics to the people who don't see themselves reflected in our standard aesthetics, aesthetics that are stridently proposed in airport beauty and perfume aisles. I've come to kind of realize that when you travel around that has become the global standard of beauty and aspiration and that kind of irks me so I want to be the opposite of that I want to balance that out when I'm at the airport I want to be the alternative to that and it's not like I want to it's not like I want to eliminate that aesthetic because it has value and it's in and it's beautiful.

3:08I don't disapprove completely. I just want to make sure that there is another option and that hopefully I can balance it out. Do you actually have a presence at the airport? No. So maybe it's just sour grapes. I agree that it seems particularly the level of disapproval sort of en masse at the moment, not just in the fashion world, but in all the world seems very, very intense and hectoring. And I've noticed that you seem like a radical, but it's very generous and gentle the way you invite people into representing them, you know, how you've just described. And I think there's a real, it's very lovely.

4:01And that's why I've always felt sort of drawn towards you. I remember first really meeting you properly when we went to the animal ball at Clarence House with then Prince Charles and Camilla. And I saw you and Michelle arrive and I thought, I'm sticking with them. And you graciously allowed me to just hang on. And I had such a fun time. I remember us going around and looking at the paintings and it was great, but you're quite an amazing figure and you're very generous with that. I always think Michelle's the amazing figure and I'm kind of just, you know, carrying her purse. Well, you do it very well.

4:48But she's in New York right now. She is the dynamic one who travels all over the world doing these furniture installations and installing furniture in people's houses and organizing an exhibition in Dubai or Marrakesh or New York, you know, while I'm just at home taking a nap. So that's how we do the furniture. That sounds great. And oh, she's turning 80. Well, she already turned 80 February 5th. Yeah, I went to her birth, one of probably many birthday dinners. Where? At Labbrook Hall down the road from here. Oh, right. And she played the piano. I missed her playing the piano. Maybe that was another party there.

5:35But I saw online, because that's how I keep track of her a lot, online. And I saw her. There's this song that she used to sing in the cabaret of the restaurant in Hollywood, when we were living in Hollywood. And it was called the King Kong Blues. It was about drinking a drink called King Kong and getting high on King Kong. We lived across from the cafe, and at night, while I was going to sleep, she would be ending the night there. And I could hear from across the street, I could hear her singing the King Kong blues while I was going to sleep, right off Hollywood Boulevard. Anyway, she sang this at Ladbroke Hall, but they kind of rigged something up.

6:21So I didn't know where they got the music. And they had backing music. And it looked like she was singing the piano. And I got FOMO. I mean, I wanted, like, it looked so glamorous and so great. I can't believe I missed it. Anyway, she turned 80 February 5th. But she tells me she wants to have a party on April 17th. That's my birthday. Really? Yeah. Because, well, then come celebrate with us. Because I'm throwing her a rave at the Lido airport in Italy because it's the beginning of the Biennale. And that's when all of her friends were going to be there. And so she thought it would be fun to have a birthday rave in the Lido.

7:07That sounds so much fun. April 17th, pencil it in. Pencil it in. Do you have any obsessions at the moment? Do I have any obsessions? I mean, it sounds like you have millions, but anyone in particular right now. Do I have obsession, you mean of people? Or is there anything that's sort of a recurring thought at the moment? It could be a person or a shoe or just like a feeling almost, I just wondered. Okay, well, I'll tell you about my day. I love that. Okay, so today, I got in last night. Where from? From Paris. So I got in last night to Claridge's, and this morning I got up, and it was such a beautiful day.

7:53I wanted to go for a walk, and I thought, oh, I'll walk to the Victoria Albert. And I'll walk through the park, and I'll stop at the Row, where I've never been. I've never been to that store. And I admire what they do, and I knew that it was right around the corner from Claridge's. So I go to the Row, and have you been there? Yeah. To their store? Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Oh, it's beautiful. It used to be an art gallery. It was really lovely. And I was just chatting and, and I mean, I'm sure everybody thought I worked there. I was just wandering around making them show me everything. And I had the loveliest time and the quality and, and everything looked great.

8:36It was really beautiful. Have you ever tried on any of their clothes? I haven't. I don't know that it would really, because I thought there was a shirt, there was a beautiful cashmere shirt. And I thought, how come we don't have a beautiful cashmere shirt like that? Yeah, same. I think, oh, I love what they do and the way it sort of cascades over your body. But I tried on a knitted jumper, a knitwear piece once, and I just vanished. The jumper took over. I became a random middle-aged woman. And I thought, oh, good, there's space for all of us. Even though it's so desirable and alluring what they do, it's good to know that it doesn't work for everybody.

9:22Well, I actually think I'm going back for a purse. This purse, the leather is just so juicy and tender and delicate, and the strap was so thin and pretty. I just thought, oh, I can keep vitamins or something in it in my dressing room because it's such a beautiful little pouch. And it was so exquisite. Anyway, so I did that. And I was listening to Shirley Horn. And I've been listening to Shirley Horn for the past, this one, a couple of albums. This song called Estate. I've heard a couple of different versions of it. I was listening to it a lot in the summer. I wish I remembered all of the words, but it's very much about acceptance.

10:15She's talking about loving summer and missing it, but it's underneath the cover of winter. And it's about remembering love. And yeah, anyway, it's a very tender, very moody thing, but it's about time passing. and acceptance. And that's something I'm kind of very conscious of these days, of the things that I wanted to pursue five years ago that may be not the things I should pursue. To do with the natural progression of having a fashion empire, what sort of steps go after each other or more personal things that you thought you were pursuing? Oh, I think this was more personal. This wasn't really about work.

11:13The work, I don't know. I don't think I really change about my perception about work. I feel the same urgency, the same, and it's almost rage, that I had when I started. I feel like there are things that I want to see that are not out there that I want to see, and so I have to make them myself. And there's things that I want to promote aesthetically, and it probably has a lot to do with ego, I'm afraid, that I want to modify or customize everything around myself. I assume it's some kind of search for control and some search for immortality. Immortality. Immortality. Because I wanted to ask you, because one of the signatures, your signatures as a designer is how you emphasize proportion and how you show, like in your last show for men and women, and you had this, like the lower leg, like this pillowy or like you're wearing today, this sort of boot cut leather of the knee down proportion.

12:35And it's so graceful and unusual. And you seem to have this kind of, this sort of amazing ability to exaggerate or change proportion. and you embody your clothes with these sort of almost mythological elements. I'm always really interested in mythology and how to sort of have a prism where people open their minds and hearts by looking at what you're wearing. And I think fashion can do that when it's really well expressed, which you did. And I wondered how you came to this thing to do with proportion and how it reflects back about maybe how you feel about your own. Have you ever had an obsession about your own proportion?

13:28Because I certainly did. But I'm always captivated by how you show that in your work. Well, distortion and exaggeration is always what I'm going for. And distorting the human figure is so much more profound than doing an embroidery that takes 7 ,000 hours. And I think it's braver. And I think the message is you can think outside the box, literally. When you exaggerate like that, you are promoting open-mindedness and acceptance and tolerance and all these great things. I've told this story a lot, how physically I wasn't very satisfied with myself. I was very fleshy and I had little girl nipples, like jelly bean nipples.

14:25and I wanted, you know, BB gun nipples. But anyway, I had soft jelly bean, not jelly bean, jelly. Jelly tot, maybe? Mm-hmm. Jelly tot, you know jelly tots, they're like little domes. Yeah, it was a little dome. It was definitely a little dome. And I remember actually that when I was in early high school, I remember that I wanted to wear t-shirts, but I was embarrassed of them. So I would tape band-aids over my nipples because they were so, they puffed out so much. So there was that. And then my shoulders were very narrow and my hips were kind of wide. Then in my thirties or late twenties, I think Michelle and I got together when I was 27 or 28.

15:20She was going to the gym, and so I started going with her. And so she kind of encouraged me to go to the gym because I was drinking so much too. She thought that I needed to sweat out the booze, which I did, which was a good idea. But anyway, then I got into that with a trainer, and then I started taking steroids and totally changed my body. I mean, the steroids made me big and puffy, but they made the shoulders wider and they did things, the steroids. And then when I stopped taking the steroids, all of the puffiness evaporated and all of a sudden underneath, I had this new scaffolding. Wow. I had the BB gun nipples that I always wanted.

16:08I had pecs. I had shoulders. It was magic. But changing my body like that, it changed my attitude about clothes. Clothes didn't matter that much anymore because I felt like I had profoundly exaggerated and distorted myself in such a total way that that satisfied my need for adornment or for how I presented myself. Now, of course, I'm distorting to a ridiculous level. I mean, the shoulder pads, obviously, these aren't my shoulders. And then recently, in the summer, I was wearing very deep V-necks because my cleavage, my tits were so good, or they were at their peak. And I thought, you know, this is as good as it's going to get.

17:13So I'm going to like, the V-neck's going to get lower. The heels are going to get higher. The shoulders are going to get wider. I think this is one of the joys of getting older, is that you just appreciate it so much more when it's there. you think, I have to show this because I'm just disappearing into the horizon. So I'm going to, like that film, the producers, where he screams out of the window, flaunt it, baby, flaunt it. And I believe in that more and more as time goes past. I have to assault people with my tits while I can. Definitely. And now the hair is going. but actually you know when I look at it this is kind of the hair that I always wanted because my hair was always like a little too thick and bushy and it was curly so I had to have it chemically straightened all the time and then it started thinning out now I have like a bit of a bald spot on the crown of my head but I always liked riffraff from the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

18:26And that's kind of the look that I'm going for, kind of like sleazy long hair. And I'm getting there. I'm getting that riffraff hair that I was, that I, you know, I was onto it. Like when I was 16, I was thinking riffraff, that's what I want to look like. So, um, it's very angelic looking your hair. I remember watching that video that you did with Tim Blanks where you're dying your hair in the sink and the cat comes along. It's just so romantic and it was a great, great image. Your hair looked great. That was one of those things where I thought this is an opportunity to promote my values. I'm going to be this silly old queen dying in his eyebrows that is going to tell some 16-year-old that this is what you can be and it's going to be okay.

19:22Yeah. No, really, that message came through. I found it very, I got a lot from that. You can be how you are. Your own qualities are the things to, you know, kind of live by or work up or validate, you know, just instead of trying to do the airport on them and sort of homogenize. So I love, I love that film. I was just listening to that music. The music to that is Sansan, the aria from Samson and Delilah. And for some reason on YouTube today, Klaus Nomi came up singing that, which is the first time I ever heard it with Klaus Nomi singing it. And I was really enjoying that song today. And then I was thinking, because I started taking French.

20:17I started taking French like a couple of weeks before Christmas. I was kind of thinking about what is my life about now or what is it turning into? And I thought Paris is kind of where it seems like I'm going to, I never thought about it because I'm always moving around so much, but I felt like this neighborhood and this house is, this is my place. This is my, this is where I feel this is home now. And I hadn't really thought about it, but I, cause you know, maybe I was thinking before, is Italy home? Is there, is Miami home? I, and, and, but I kind of decided looking around, I go, well, yeah, this is where I'm going to be 80 and, and, and shuffle around going to like cafes that, that, you know, they roll their eyes and they know that I'm going to order the same thing that I've been ordering for the past 20 years.

21:18And I thought, well, I might as well learn French. And I also thought it was such an elegant thing to do during the day. I thought, you know, I take a nap for an hour, I work out for an hour, taking French for an hour. That seems really, that seems like an elegant, positive thing to do. Like, what are the best things in life? learning. Learning is one of them. And I thought, you know, after this, maybe I'll learn the piano. But learning is going to be one of the most satisfying things I can think of. Or cultivating a garden. Now, I don't know if I can do that. Cultivating a garden takes reserves of patience that I don't think I have anymore.

22:11Maybe I could train myself to do that, but... I think it's good to learn the things that are slightly coming naturally, like you're in Paris, so learning French. And also I find that the doing different, the sort of going in a different direction brings ideas to another place, and that's what I'm always looking for. How can I sort of Trojan horse activities, like I'll end up somewhere, but the repercussion, I mean, I'm always hoping it repercusses into my till in my shop. So, but it always, it isn't always a sort of straightforward direction. But can I ask you about how you start with an outfit because my father Lucian always started a painting with a point between the eyes and I wondered where you start or do you have a place you start with?

23:15Oh, shoes. Shoes, yeah, same. Yeah, shoes and hair say it all. Like you can do anything else, but like shoe and hair because those are the biggest commitments. everything else can kind of fall into place I think. And if you fancy someone and don't like what they're wearing does it kill your attraction to them? Absolutely not. It almost perks it up. That's so good. For one thing, the fact that they kind of have disregard for what I might consider attractive or well no let me rephrase that if i see somebody with um a very branded logoed bag that would kill my attraction i would think if if if the that kind of expresses their values to me in that world.

24:19And so, but I hesitate saying that because there is like a, there's a sense of disapproval there that I disapprove of, but I can't help it. I mean, if there are certain bags that I think if you feel the need to align yourself with that kind of aspiration, we're probably not going to have a lot to talk about. But if somebody has butt-ugly clothes that have nothing to do with status consciousness, I'm intrigued. I love that they don't care about fashion and that they have other priorities. That's hot. Yeah, there's something to be said for bad clothes. They're very charming, really, aren't they and even a logo bag i suppose on a kid who's so delighted by it that's well that's where they belong yeah children and if you're feeling low there are certain clothes that make you feel better you know i was telling with the rose going if i was a girl i'd buy all this shit This is great.

25:33It's beautiful. And it's elegant. And it's quality, quality, quality. And thoughtful and thought through. A friend of mine told me he masked his shyness with misbehavior. Have you tried that? Probably. Do you dress up or down if you're feeling shy? Well, I always dress the same. I really only wear a certain look for a few years. I mean, I've been wearing this one for probably five years. It's always the platform boots. And platform boots, because they're so ridiculous. They are such an affront to good taste. That's why I wear of them. They're kitschy and they're camp. And then I just started wearing the wide-shouldered coats.

26:34And even in the summer, I wear the wide-shouldered coats, but they're in chiffon. But I like making a decision and sticking to it. I can't imagine having to make a choice every morning i like being in one zone and you know there was a time uh when i first moved to paris and i wore very ripped up clothes and boots like these these biker boots were kind of falling apart and um army surplus clothes that were kind of patched together and over dyed black but like a faded black. So everything was all the same kind of muddy tone. And I wore like cut off army cargo pants over sweat pants with either the biker boots or UGG boots that I had thrown in the washing machine with black dye.

27:38I realize now that it was a very adolescent rebellion against conservative values. And I was challenging the world with my unkemptness. And I was displaying my contempt of standard aesthetic values. And I see that. I see that cycle. I see that cycle of dressing happening. And I have great affection for it. I know exactly where it's coming from, and I remember going through that. But there's a certain amount of contempt in it that bothers me now, or that I wouldn't really engage in it. But I understand where that expression comes from. Now, I feel like I want to present something a little bit more formal and respectful.

28:53I think there was a snotty contempt then, and I think now there is an accepting formal politeness that I'm kind of reaching for. That's how I changed, I guess, in the past 20 years. Because I've heard you talk about your father being very authoritarian, and I wondered how that showed up. How did he question your taste or confront you in how you dressed and what kind of an effect that had on you? Oh, yeah, very much. I am such a reflection of him and such a reaction, such a first-degree reaction. We are such an obvious dynamic. Michelle always gets irritated when my father comes up because she goes, why do you always have to talk about your father?

29:54And I'm going, well, because that's kind of all there was. She was in boarding school and she had a whole big family. So her experience was very different. And I said, but you didn't invent yourself, but you are a response to your boarding school. You're a response to the nuns that you were rebelling against. So it's very similar. But I have tremendous affection for my father. He was very dominating. He could be very cruel. He was a bully with me. Intellectually, he was a bully. He would corner me intellectually, and I would feel trapped and frustrated and demeaned. But he was very damaged. And Mom and I, we were both very dominated by him, and he could be kind of cruel.

30:51But somehow, I think Mom and I were both caretakers, and we both subliminally recognized how damaged he was and that he needed to dominate so badly. So we kind of went along with it, I think. He clearly didn't crush you because you're so the opposite. I mean, you're so creative and so perceptive and understanding of things. I've thought about it. If it was another person, they could have ended up very differently. But somewhere I had this streak of aggression and rage in me that I have tried to become the opposite force of him in this world. I felt like he was very much about judgment, about condemnation and dismissal and cancelling.

31:50He was all about that. And so that's why I've become more ultra-sensitive to it when I see it happening in the world. And I wanted to do something as a reaction. Do you think that's when you started to see that clothes could be a tool in your life when you were really young because of how much your father tried to sort of control your thoughts and attitudes? I guess. You know, I went to art school to be a painter. Really? That's what I was going to be. I was going to be an artist. But, you know, we had these really stupid art theory classes that were so complex and so intimidating that I thought, oh, I'm not smart enough to be an artist.

32:38So I'm going to do fashion instead because it looks like fun and I can handle it. You did good.

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33:31You might need MIDI if you ever hairsprayed your bangs into a waterfall, layered slouch socks, tied a scrunchie to the bottom corner of your t-shirt, or tried to go for a run with a CD player. If this took you down memory lane, you might need MIDI. Perimenopause can start 10 years before you actually go through menopause. So for some women, that can be as early as 35. Nobody ever told you that? Well, nobody told us either. That's why we built MIDI. If you're experiencing symptoms like night sweats, weight gain, or just generally don't feel like yourself anymore, you may be in perimenopause. But here's some good news.

34:08With the right care, these symptoms are treatable. Book a virtual visit with a menopause specialist at MIDI. Visit joinmidi.com to schedule with an expert who gets it. Specialist-led care. Virtual visits. Insurance eligible. Midlife needs MIDI. Results may vary. Medications prescribed only if clinically appropriate based on a consultation with a clinician. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. And as a child or when you were a younger person, do you remember something that someone else was wearing that seemed to bestow like a magical power on them? Because I remember those moments from when I was about eight and even younger than that, how certain garments seemed to be like a magic carpet almost.

34:57It all comes down to dad because for all of his faults, the part that I didn't get to was that dad didn't allow a TV in the house. And he had a vast library and he felt that the library was good enough. And it was. So in retrospect, of course, I benefited from that. Of course, it was an advantage that I didn't have a TV. And if I were a parent, I don't know if I could be that harsh. But boy, it really worked for me. And there were a lot of Japanese art books because he had spent time in Japan during the war. He'd been a mail carrier in Tokyo, I think. Anyway, he had all of these Japanese art books with mystical, abstract watercolors and all of this imagery of these kimonos and the hairstyles and the pageantry of those looks.